I'm not going to bother quoting Axehilt for the sake of brevity, but the 'questing isn't grinding argument' is extremely subjective at best. The variety in mob type and quest type in MMOs is generally negligible within the same zone and quest level. Arguing the semantics of 'they're all nouns' doesn't invalidate anything, you are being intentionally obtuse to try to 'win' some internet argument IMO.
As for the direction of the genre, it has changed quite a lot post-WoW. The changes directly reflect the massive influx of players from a variety of games types, most notably Blizzards own games. Those games (warcraft/diablo mainly) focus on brief (< 1 hour) moments of gameplay, which mandate less depth and immersion IMO. WoW reflected this as well, with a focus on dungeons and questing, both activities that were somewhat brief compared to other MMOs and very defined in terms of beginning to end.
So, yes the genre changed from a focus on immersive world/community-building to more solo-oriented directed gameplay. This directly reflects the gaming market as a whole, there is more demand overall for that type of gameplay.
The problem lies in the fact that MMOs are insanely expensive to develop compared to other genres and developers and investors commonly feel compelled to chase the largest audience possible for the largest possible return. This has led to most MMOs employing the principles that the newer generation recognizes as simply what makes an MMO an MMO. Older players generally still believe that the older principles based around world-building are what makes an MMO an MMO, while there is now a huge part of the MMO market who believe that is just some kind of nostalgia delirium.
In my opinion the biggest problem is that there is no consensus definition of what an MMORPG even is. The term currently broadly encompasses a wide variety of game elements that have very little in common. Whether a game has levels, quests, raids, dungeons, pvp, arenas, battlegrounds, economy, etc. is irrelevant as there are plenty of games that don't have one or more of these elements and are considered MMORPGs.
That distinction is deceptively important though since MMOs are judged based on that. For instance, it is an extremely common argument on these forums that X types of MMO 'fail' because they only ever sustain Y amount of players. There are quite a lot of things wrong with that argument (one being that under that argument only a few MMOs have ever succeeded, another being that almost all of those argument crumble if you ignore WoW), but the pertinent one is that is usually comparing games that are basically different genres under the same umbrella.
I have played MMOs since UO. The genre changed, I didn't. I like MMOs that focus on world/community building and social/competitive elements; I'm not drunk with nostalgia, games that focus on the elements I like haven't been made recently (hopefully soon). MMOs are different, I didn't just get old. Games like the division have more in common with Diablo than what I consider an MMORPG. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it, it's just not the same genre (not even close) to me.
The main thing that changed was that the word MMORPG morphed from describing a more niche (but growing) segment of virtual world building to a mainstream concept of any burgeoning game that supports more than 8 players on screen at a time and has more persistence than a lobby.
So I haven't played any MMO regularly in a year or so, the experience is just too shallow atm. Trying to explain this to people on the internet is unfortunately like trying to describe why you like ahi tuna to a kid who wants nothing more than to eat McDonald's every meal for the rest of his life.
The market for virtual worlds definitely still exists, it has just taken publishers/developers a long time to realize that it's a market worth developing for. Hopefully soon we will have some games that at least begin to break away from the elements that have defined the post-WoW MMO era. I know I'm not the only person who is utterly fatigued with them.
You probably should've quoted a post, to be sure you replied to what I've actually said. As covered before, "grind" describes too little gameplay variety relative to the time investment. The 'too little' part is subjective, which is why I've never said that quest are never considered a grind.
Most of my comments have been that the better quest-based games are dramatically less grindy than grind-based games. Note that this is a comparative statement, and not a claim quests are never considered a grind. And the comparison is pretty indisputable: a game where you kill 2 mob types in an hour is objectively less varied than a game where you do ~10 different activities and kill 10-20 different mob types in the same hour.
That variety isn't negligible. It's variety. It matters. Variety is valued by players. (If it wasn't the term "grind" wouldn't be used to negatively refer to a period with insufficient variety.)
You claim that short-session games demand less depth. Do you have any proof of that claim? Because the deepest games like SC2, Chess, and Tribes are all short-session games but reward an extremely high amount of mastery.
What's this nonsense about not knowing what an MMORPG is? The noun of that acronym is RPG, and we know that videogame RPGs since the beginning are built on story, progression, and stats-driven combat. The adjective of the acronym is MMO, indicating it's not just a multiplayer version of an RPG, but a massively multiplayer one. So any MMO version of an RPG qualifies as an MMORPG. This isn't rocket surgery.
Notably, early MMORPGs were actually pretty bad RPGs. In FF4 and FF6 you weren't simply grinding mobs endlessly, there was a long and involved storyline pulling you through the game. So unsurprisingly, early MMORPGs performed badly. Later MMORPGs were better RPGs, so unsurprisingly they've performed better.
You claim that understanding the definition of MMORPG (the genre) is important because they're "judged on that", but that's just nonsense. When the first MOBAs came out, they weren't an RTS and the definition of MOBA didn't even exist yet. Did that negatively impact players' "judgement" of MOBAs? Of course not. All players care about is "is the game fun?"
MMORPGs being expensive does influence their design in a "play it safe" way. Cheaper niche MMORPGs can still be profitable though. I mean Darkfall of all games is "launching" yet again, so they must be making enough money to sustain their small company with their niche product. But yeah, if you're only interested in the blockbuster-tier games then you're not ever going to see those made in a way most people dislike (if you ever do, it's because somebody made a mistake.)
Nobody's saying the genre didn't change. It understandably became more like RPGs were prior to MMORPGs, because that was a proven formula based on a lot of experience figuring out what players enjoy in games, and companies are in the business of providing games players enjoy.
In terms of "8 players onscreen", keep in mind that the average gameplay in UO didn't have 8+ players onscreen at one time. (It had 8+ players onscreen about as often as players return to a town in modern MMORPGs to see 8+ players there.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Which is why I have largely left the MMORPG genre. I am left wondering; given the direction this genre has taken, what purpose does it actually serve? What itch does it scratch that can't be scratched more completely elsewhere?
Please share your thoughts.
It offers a couple different co-op experiences you really can't find any where else. Namely SWTOR and ESO for My wife and I. Though we're playing less of each, Divinity takes up most of our gaming time (which isn't all that much in terms of playing together due to schedules).. We buy anything and everything that offers a decent co-op experience.
Anyway the way in which we can take part in story content is pretty unique in SWTOR (compared to many games we own) Divinity and the NWN2: SOZ expansion are the only others I can think of with anything like it; as it's a shared story experience (in most other games one person is simply a silent bystander).
Running around in ESO together is rather unique as far as Co-op experiences we own go, although the story content isn't shared as it is in SWTOR.. It feels far more freeform in how you approach content than SWTOR. These are the only MMORPG she'll play, she didn't like AOC, TSW, FFXIV or GW2 at all.
We are a lot of people in the same boat. People that say that "you just don't enjoy MMORPGs anymore"; It's more like we don't enjoy TODAYS MMORPGs, since we have played it already and for many many years. The people that play MMORPGs today are probably the generation after the one that started playing online games 15 years ago, pretty much like myself.
We want new, competetive and meaningful stuff. Not some korean grinder.
I'm not even opposed to grinding. At least in games without hub-to-hub questing there is the possibility for some meaningful interaction or exploration.
For instance: you go to camp to grind mobs and encounter other players you can. . . -compete with them for mobs (a form of non-direct social interaction) -offer to team up with them and potentially meet new people and increase efficiency -offer to team up with them and move to a higher level camp or dungeon for better rewards -go find another camp where you may not have to compete -take turns pulling (more social interaction) -kill them and take the spawns for yourself. (how it was done on Mordred server in DAOC)
And that's just an example of the most 'boring' part of old-school MMOs. To me it was infinitely more immersive than running errand after errand for NPCs on rails in a game where the entire world only exists as a space for quest objectives. It made the games feel more like a world and less like a level that I needed to beat to get to the next one.
Had to add another option there for you.
I found in the long run the old design of camp grinding to be much less boring than quest grinding proved to be after I spent time in both.
I don't need 35 varieties of NPC's to kill, they all pretty much die from one of several combat combinations at my disposal so what does it matter what they look like or how they react, they just need to end up dead so I can continue with my progression, and if I meet some new people on the journey, that's the real win for me, not more interactive (aka "busy") playing experiences.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This is not intended as a rant; however, I do bemoan the course the MMORPG genre has taken post-WOW.
When I largely stopped playing MMORPGs it was not a conscious decision; I did not throw down my keyboard in disgust. For some time in the late noughties and early teens, I still treated each new release with curiosity, bordering excitement. I would then buy the latest (AAA) release and find that it either felt like:
a) treading old ground. The game would be generic and derivative. Maybe "WOW-clone" is a misnomer, but a lot of games certainly did not differentiate themselves sufficiently from their forebears to hold my interest, or;
b) the game was too solo-centric. If grouping was even a requirement of the game, it would be automated in a manner that involved no actual interaction or socialization. There would be little immersion; the game design opting for maps filled with sparkly, shouty distractions, rather than maps you wanted to explore and discover. Don't get me wrong, I am a casual player, but casual is not synonymous with shallow. Or...
c) It felt like a cheap cash-grab second only to the mobile market for its mercenary monetization system. The MMORPGs that fall into this category are usually not AAA titles (although there are notable exceptions such as PWE releases). These games are often trash designed only to extract money from their customers. As a case-study for the Veblan effect these games have some worth; as MMORPGs they only damage the genre.
But, as I said, I did not storm away from the genre in disgust. Rather, I drifted away from the genre because my needs could be met more completely elsewhere. I can scratch my PVP itch with online shooters that do not rely on unfair gear or level advantages to shore up bad players. I can find better combat systems in single-player games. I can find better solo-centric stories in single-player games. I can find more innovative gameplay in single-player games. I can find more meaningful interaction in cooperative games.
Which is why I have largely left the MMORPG genre. I am left wondering; given the direction this genre has taken, what purpose does it actually serve? What itch does it scratch that can't be scratched more completely elsewhere?
Please share your thoughts.
this is much of my feelings now. I am not playing MMOs at this time because they are cheap cash-Grabs and solo centric.
Would of loved to read most of these but as usual it's mostly people ranting grind versus not grind off topic like a bunch of children who simply must prove their red ball is better than the other kid and his crappy blue ball.
I stopped playing mmorpg's dedicated like long ago for many reasons but it's mostly for reasons seen in this discussion.
It's not the genre. It's the people playing it. People have over all become more crass and wretched online with mmorpg's than any game I have ever played.
I can play COD BO3 for hours and never hear anything. Not one thing. MMORPG's?
Login and you can be sure if a general chat exists? It's going to be bickering, poltical...it's basically OT 2008 here at mmorpg.com.
It's like everyone who plays these games has a severe social integration problem and then projects that rage on a chat cluster.
Whether you like to admit it. We mmorpg players are pretty much walking ....errrr W'ing, /general'ing case studies for aspergers. We are really are the most awful of gamers. Anything we play is terrible....anything that is considered content is a grind...we moan at expansions...we complain and complain.
Frankly. I'd rather play with a room full of sqealers in COD because atleast they have the excuse of being very young... Most of us are in our 20's-30's-50's (Screw you 40...I'm avoiding you).
Would of loved to read most of these but as usual it's mostly people ranting grind versus not grind off topic like a bunch of children who simply must prove their red ball is better than the other kid and his crappy blue ball.
"Instead of taking the time to read a discussion that mostly has to do with objective facts, I've chosen to ignore it and simply guess at what was said. As such, I've decided to call you all children, because I'm mature."
*clap*
*clap*
Well done.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
does anyone else here ever get the feeling that the folks who complain about solo in MMORPG are the same people nobody really wants to play with in the first place regardless of the reason? you know, the type. the ones with control issues that want to control the entire party and then are amazing and confused how oever time their group gets smaller and smaller until its just them by themselves again?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Would of loved to read most of these but as usual it's mostly people ranting grind versus not grind off topic like a bunch of children who simply must prove their red ball is better than the other kid and his crappy blue ball.
I stopped playing mmorpg's dedicated like long ago for many reasons but it's mostly for reasons seen in this discussion.
It's not the genre. It's the people playing it. People have over all become more crass and wretched online with mmorpg's than any game I have ever played.
I can play COD BO3 for hours and never hear anything. Not one thing. MMORPG's?
Login and you can be sure if a general chat exists? It's going to be bickering, poltical...it's basically OT 2008 here at mmorpg.com.
It's like everyone who plays these games has a severe social integration problem and then projects that rage on a chat cluster.
Whether you like to admit it. We mmorpg players are pretty much walking ....errrr W'ing, /general'ing case studies for aspergers. We are really are the most awful of gamers. Anything we play is terrible....anything that is considered content is a grind...we moan at expansions...we complain and complain.
Frankly. I'd rather play with a room full of sqealers in COD because atleast they have the excuse of being very young... Most of us are in our 20's-30's-50's (Screw you 40...I'm avoiding you).
There is no excuse for such....prattery.
exciting point of view:D, I occasionally play mmos for many years, started with silkroad online, perfect world,..over time I've seen how mmos genre changed. It became much, much more competitive,
individualistic,... when I turn on Guild Wars 2, they even have professional pvp league, no joke. If I only look now on Black Deser Online,...this game will be a volcano of ego battles, the whole genre somehow shifted from entertainment,...to serious stuff for many people. I don't think that mmos players are the worst, but I do think they run amok even faster as by shooter games.
I don't understand people who say the community was so much better in the past in terms of maturity.
The only difference in older MMOs was that people had thicker skin and accepted rude remarks.
The general chat was always full of immature remarks concerning things in real life.
The whole concept of being respectful in this day and age has gotten out of control IMO. People just won't put up with much of anything. Perhaps that's why it's all solo in MMOs now except for instanced grouping and raiding.
I don't understand people who say the community was so much better in the past in terms of maturity.
The only difference in older MMOs was that people had thicker skin and accepted rude remarks.
The general chat was always full of immature remarks concerning things in real life.
The whole concept of being respectful in this day and age has gotten out of control IMO. People just won't put up with much of anything. Perhaps that's why it's all solo in MMOs now except for instanced grouping and raiding.
I've found, more than anything, that the game shapes the community, not individual people.
LotRO, being slower paced, more realistic and generally aimed at a more mature crowd, especially with all the extra social features, resulted in a mature community of (generally) nice people. Even after F2P, the community remained better than most MMOs (though, it was worse than before f2p)
When I shifted to WAR with it's PvP focus and fast-paced combat, a lot of the same mature people who I played LotRO with became less mature, more moany etc (so did I). However, as WAR was still largely about working together, there was still a community feel, even if it was childish.
Then when I moved to SW:TOR, the community was the worst I've played with in an MMO. Being solo-centric and pve orientated, I'd have thought it'd be better than WAR but it wasn't. There was something about the game that brought out the worst in people. Perhaps everyone was just pissed off because the game sucked in comparison to expectations. Maybe it was just a younger crowd? I don't know. Maybe it's just that I had slightly different groups of friends in each game and these people had a bigger influence on my impressions of the community.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I don't understand people who say the community was so much better in the past in terms of maturity.
The only difference in older MMOs was that people had thicker skin and accepted rude remarks.
The general chat was always full of immature remarks concerning things in real life.
The whole concept of being respectful in this day and age has gotten out of control IMO. People just won't put up with much of anything. Perhaps that's why it's all solo in MMOs now except for instanced grouping and raiding.
I've found, more than anything, that the game shapes the community, not individual people.
LotRO, being slower paced, more realistic and generally aimed at a more mature crowd, especially with all the extra social features, resulted in a mature community of (generally) nice people. Even after F2P, the community remained better than most MMOs (though, it was worse than before f2p)
When I shifted to WAR with it's PvP focus and fast-paced combat, a lot of the same mature people who I played LotRO with became less mature, more moany etc (so did I). However, as WAR was still largely about working together, there was still a community feel, even if it was childish.
Then when I moved to SW:TOR, the community was the worst I've played with in an MMO. Being solo-centric and pve orientated, I'd have thought it'd be better than WAR but it wasn't. There was something about the game that brought out the worst in people. Perhaps everyone was just pissed off because the game sucked in comparison to expectations. Maybe it was just a younger crowd? I don't know. Maybe it's just that I had slightly different groups of friends in each game and these people had a bigger influence on my impressions of the community.
I can't speak for LOTRO or SW:TOR as I only played them for a small amount of time.
I remember in Ultima Online and EQ people would spam a lot of rude remarks like that's gay (in a derogatory way). There were also a fair measure of sexist comments and immature jokes in general. It was fairly accepted at the time in general chat. That doesn't mean everyone was like that. Many people in general chat were just asking for help/advice or looking to trade.
World of Warcraft had a fairly similar general chat to the first two games except it was even more out of control as there was a larger crowd in the game.
I don't recall things being so bad in Star Wars Galaxies, but I only played that game for a small amount of time.
One thing I can say is that people on forums are a lot more polite in general now. In the past forums were pretty much non stop rants. Rants that would put the ones today to shame (the ones people complain about here).
As much as I've enjoyed the older games, I still enjoy the new ones. Whether it will be from young devs or older devs, which are making games like CU, Shroud of the Avatar, Pathfinder, etc. etc. I will be intrigued to see where and how it influences (if at all) the genre. Fun is the name of the game, and only I will know when I try it. No one can decide for me if I'll have fun or not, just me. All I know is that I won't omit any chance to enjoy a game because of anonymous posters trying to predict what is 'good' or 'sucks', no matter how hard they try to twist information to benefit argument/rant/agenda.
This is not intended as a rant; however, I do bemoan the course the MMORPG genre has taken post-WOW.
When I largely stopped playing MMORPGs it was not a conscious decision; I did not throw down my keyboard in disgust. For some time in the late noughties and early teens, I still treated each new release with curiosity, bordering excitement. I would then buy the latest (AAA) release and find that it either felt like:
a) treading old ground. The game would be generic and derivative. Maybe "WOW-clone" is a misnomer, but a lot of games certainly did not differentiate themselves sufficiently from their forebears to hold my interest, or;
b) the game was too solo-centric. If grouping was even a requirement of the game, it would be automated in a manner that involved no actual interaction or socialization. There would be little immersion; the game design opting for maps filled with sparkly, shouty distractions, rather than maps you wanted to explore and discover. Don't get me wrong, I am a casual player, but casual is not synonymous with shallow. Or...
c) It felt like a cheap cash-grab second only to the mobile market for its mercenary monetization system. The MMORPGs that fall into this category are usually not AAA titles (although there are notable exceptions such as PWE releases). These games are often trash designed only to extract money from their customers. As a case-study for the Veblan effect these games have some worth; as MMORPGs they only damage the genre.
But, as I said, I did not storm away from the genre in disgust. Rather, I drifted away from the genre because my needs could be met more completely elsewhere. I can scratch my PVP itch with online shooters that do not rely on unfair gear or level advantages to shore up bad players. I can find better combat systems in single-player games. I can find better solo-centric stories in single-player games. I can find more innovative gameplay in single-player games. I can find more meaningful interaction in cooperative games.
Which is why I have largely left the MMORPG genre. I am left wondering; given the direction this genre has taken, what purpose does it actually serve? What itch does it scratch that can't be scratched more completely elsewhere?
Please share your thoughts.
I also quit on mmorpgs all together for the same reasons, maybe when something decent finally comes along I will give it a try, I barely even try free to play multiplayer games, I may be buying grim dawn actually atm, I am only looking for buy to play multiplayer games period. I am done giving my money to these greedy jerks, maybe one day when eso has a free trial I may eventually buy that but im to busy with single player games and modded skyrim atm.
They should make a sticky about "why I stopped playing MMORPGs" and enforce its usage. It would save us of such forum pollution.
Yeh I have been saying this for a awhile. They finally stickied a Solo vs Group thread and a Themepark vs Sandbox. Now all they need is a All MMOs Suck vs No They Don't thread sticked, or a This Is Why I Don't Play MMOs vs This Is Why I DO.
I think you might find that the creation of those stickies has led to a lower thread count, forums struggle to be as relevant today with social media taking up so much of peoples time. So more would not be a good idea.
Well, that was a fun read. It is particularly amusing to read the diatribes of the diehard MMORPG crowd. How dare anyone offer criticism... only my criticism of their criticism is allowed because my towering narcissism says so, looking at you @Jean-Luc_Picard ;
Which reminds me of the reason for leaving this genre that I forgot to mention; people so monumentally conceited that they try to stifle any viewpoint other than their own.
Well, that was a fun read. It is particularly amusing to read the diatribes of the diehard MMORPG crowd. How dare anyone offer criticism... only my criticism of their criticism is allowed because my towering narcissism says so, looking at you @Jean-Luc_Picard ;
Which reminds me of the reason for leaving this genre that I forgot to mention; people so monumentally conceited that they try to stifle any viewpoint other than their own.
Monumentally conceited and towering narcissist. Good ones, I'm going to have to add those to the list of other labels I freely accept such as arrogant, self centered, elitist and even a*******.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm thinking we should have more kinds of grinds, not just the gear grind but...
Petty grind Gear grind House grind Castle grind Empire grind Environment change grind like Road grind Tower grind Wall grind Kill grind Kill the trees grind Dig a hole in the ground grind Player grind Bridge grind ... Ah, I'm not good at this.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
Have to agree with the enterprise captain here. o7
Simply because the OP does not really offer anything in the way of a discussion, just a 'blog' type piece on what's wrong with the Mmo genre today. Something done here all too frequently and a specific stickied thread to that effect would help with the clutter.
Kinda like some threads and those same camps constantly going at it. Should have a live feed, where we can sit back, eat popcorn and watch those animal house antics. ~Disclaimer: This is a generalized opinion. Names of games, posters, places and/or incidents either are products of this poster’s imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual threads, topics or posters, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.
Comments
Most of my comments have been that the better quest-based games are dramatically less grindy than grind-based games. Note that this is a comparative statement, and not a claim quests are never considered a grind. And the comparison is pretty indisputable: a game where you kill 2 mob types in an hour is objectively less varied than a game where you do ~10 different activities and kill 10-20 different mob types in the same hour.
That variety isn't negligible. It's variety. It matters. Variety is valued by players. (If it wasn't the term "grind" wouldn't be used to negatively refer to a period with insufficient variety.)
You claim that short-session games demand less depth. Do you have any proof of that claim? Because the deepest games like SC2, Chess, and Tribes are all short-session games but reward an extremely high amount of mastery.
What's this nonsense about not knowing what an MMORPG is? The noun of that acronym is RPG, and we know that videogame RPGs since the beginning are built on story, progression, and stats-driven combat. The adjective of the acronym is MMO, indicating it's not just a multiplayer version of an RPG, but a massively multiplayer one. So any MMO version of an RPG qualifies as an MMORPG. This isn't rocket surgery.
Notably, early MMORPGs were actually pretty bad RPGs. In FF4 and FF6 you weren't simply grinding mobs endlessly, there was a long and involved storyline pulling you through the game. So unsurprisingly, early MMORPGs performed badly. Later MMORPGs were better RPGs, so unsurprisingly they've performed better.
You claim that understanding the definition of MMORPG (the genre) is important because they're "judged on that", but that's just nonsense. When the first MOBAs came out, they weren't an RTS and the definition of MOBA didn't even exist yet. Did that negatively impact players' "judgement" of MOBAs? Of course not. All players care about is "is the game fun?"
MMORPGs being expensive does influence their design in a "play it safe" way. Cheaper niche MMORPGs can still be profitable though. I mean Darkfall of all games is "launching" yet again, so they must be making enough money to sustain their small company with their niche product. But yeah, if you're only interested in the blockbuster-tier games then you're not ever going to see those made in a way most people dislike (if you ever do, it's because somebody made a mistake.)
Nobody's saying the genre didn't change. It understandably became more like RPGs were prior to MMORPGs, because that was a proven formula based on a lot of experience figuring out what players enjoy in games, and companies are in the business of providing games players enjoy.
In terms of "8 players onscreen", keep in mind that the average gameplay in UO didn't have 8+ players onscreen at one time. (It had 8+ players onscreen about as often as players return to a town in modern MMORPGs to see 8+ players there.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I found in the long run the old design of camp grinding to be much less boring than quest grinding proved to be after I spent time in both.
I don't need 35 varieties of NPC's to kill, they all pretty much die from one of several combat combinations at my disposal so what does it matter what they look like or how they react, they just need to end up dead so I can continue with my progression, and if I meet some new people on the journey, that's the real win for me, not more interactive (aka "busy") playing experiences.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
this is much of my feelings now. I am not playing MMOs at this time because they are cheap cash-Grabs and solo centric.
I stopped playing mmorpg's dedicated like long ago for many reasons but it's mostly for reasons seen in this discussion.
It's not the genre. It's the people playing it.
People have over all become more crass and wretched online with mmorpg's than any game I have ever played.
I can play COD BO3 for hours and never hear anything. Not one thing. MMORPG's?
Login and you can be sure if a general chat exists? It's going to be bickering, poltical...it's basically OT 2008 here at mmorpg.com.
It's like everyone who plays these games has a severe social integration problem and then projects that rage on a chat cluster.
Whether you like to admit it. We mmorpg players are pretty much walking ....errrr W'ing, /general'ing case studies for aspergers. We are really are the most awful of gamers. Anything we play is terrible....anything that is considered content is a grind...we moan at expansions...we complain and complain.
Frankly. I'd rather play with a room full of sqealers in COD because atleast they have the excuse of being very young... Most of us are in our 20's-30's-50's (Screw you 40...I'm avoiding you).
There is no excuse for such....prattery.
*clap*
*clap*
Well done.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The only difference in older MMOs was that people had thicker skin and accepted rude remarks.
The general chat was always full of immature remarks concerning things in real life.
The whole concept of being respectful in this day and age has gotten out of control IMO. People just won't put up with much of anything. Perhaps that's why it's all solo in MMOs now except for instanced grouping and raiding.
LotRO, being slower paced, more realistic and generally aimed at a more mature crowd, especially with all the extra social features, resulted in a mature community of (generally) nice people. Even after F2P, the community remained better than most MMOs (though, it was worse than before f2p)
When I shifted to WAR with it's PvP focus and fast-paced combat, a lot of the same mature people who I played LotRO with became less mature, more moany etc (so did I). However, as WAR was still largely about working together, there was still a community feel, even if it was childish.
Then when I moved to SW:TOR, the community was the worst I've played with in an MMO. Being solo-centric and pve orientated, I'd have thought it'd be better than WAR but it wasn't. There was something about the game that brought out the worst in people. Perhaps everyone was just pissed off because the game sucked in comparison to expectations. Maybe it was just a younger crowd? I don't know. Maybe it's just that I had slightly different groups of friends in each game and these people had a bigger influence on my impressions of the community.
I remember in Ultima Online and EQ people would spam a lot of rude remarks like that's gay (in a derogatory way). There were also a fair measure of sexist comments and immature jokes in general. It was fairly accepted at the time in general chat. That doesn't mean everyone was like that. Many people in general chat were just asking for help/advice or looking to trade.
World of Warcraft had a fairly similar general chat to the first two games except it was even more out of control as there was a larger crowd in the game.
I don't recall things being so bad in Star Wars Galaxies, but I only played that game for a small amount of time.
One thing I can say is that people on forums are a lot more polite in general now. In the past forums were pretty much non stop rants. Rants that would put the ones today to shame (the ones people complain about here).
Fun is the name of the game, and only I will know when I try it. No one can decide for me if I'll have fun or not, just me.
All I know is that I won't omit any chance to enjoy a game because of anonymous posters trying to predict what is 'good' or 'sucks', no matter how hard they try to twist information to benefit argument/rant/agenda.
I also quit on mmorpgs all together for the same reasons, maybe when something decent finally comes along I will give it a try, I barely even try free to play multiplayer games, I may be buying grim dawn actually atm, I am only looking for buy to play multiplayer games period. I am done giving my money to these greedy jerks, maybe one day when eso has a free trial I may eventually buy that but im to busy with single player games and modded skyrim atm.
I think you might find that the creation of those stickies has led to a lower thread count, forums struggle to be as relevant today with social media taking up so much of peoples time. So more would not be a good idea.
Which reminds me of the reason for leaving this genre that I forgot to mention; people so monumentally conceited that they try to stifle any viewpoint other than their own.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Petty grind
Gear grind
House grind
Castle grind
Empire grind
Environment change grind like
Road grind
Tower grind
Wall grind
Kill grind
Kill the trees grind
Dig a hole in the ground grind
Player grind
Bridge grind
...
Ah, I'm not good at this.
Simply because the OP does not really offer anything in the way of a discussion, just a 'blog' type piece on what's wrong with the Mmo genre today. Something done here all too frequently and a specific stickied thread to that effect would help with the clutter.
Kinda like some threads and those same camps constantly going at it. Should have a live feed, where we can sit back, eat popcorn and watch those animal house antics.
~Disclaimer: This is a generalized opinion. Names of games, posters, places and/or incidents either are products of this poster’s imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual threads, topics or posters, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.