How many "players" should be on a mmorpg server (instance)?

Adjuvant1

The current tech demo of Star Citizen allows only for 16 participants on a server (instance). Even with this number, after a period of time the server slows significantly if the participants are distant from one another. Developers attempted to have servers (instances) "hold" as many as 20, but after catastrophic failure the number was reduced to 16.

How many participants on a given server (instance) do you believe a space mmorpg "Star Citizen" should have? With what number would you be satisfied, if the number is different? Remember, this question is not directed toward a SQ42 release, but rather the original vision on which many backers were "sold", a broad, persistent mmorpg universe.

Further, why are they having such trouble? Will 200+ be possible?

edit: Apparently, I'm confused as to definitions of "server" and "instance". Currently 16 players can interact in a given "instance", but what's the point then, of having multi-crew ships, if many of them cannot interact?

edit 2: I'm not seeing much more substance to the argument. Apparently, so far, we're supposed to understand it's completely ok for "16 participant instances", and it's "fun" to have 16 people walk around their spacemen and make them sit in chairs and dance.

edit 3: There appears to be alot of misdirection. No one wants to answer the "point of a 16-crew ship", except that "player social interaction is fun".

edit 4: Modified title and first paragraph for semantics. Paragraph 3 edited, removing ("I'd expect closer to 2000+. Why should I not expect "thousands"?") which became peripheral to the accepted server/instance terminology conflict.

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

The current tech demo of Star Citizen allows only for 16 participants on a server.

Incorrect.

Currently 16 per instance, with 24 having been tested with a limited amount of users in PTU Alpha 2.1.1

Operative word being "INSTANCE", not "SERVER".

With CIG's planned Google Cloud infrastructure the amount of instances on the server is for all practical purposes  unlimited.

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/134960/google-cloud-instance-servers-what-do-we-know

Which means the amount of users on the server is for all practical purposes  unlimited  (only constraints is the Google private net backbone bandwidth)



Have fun

Talonsin

2's company and 3 is a crowd so I'm guessing 4 means massively?  LOL

Erillion

Talonsin said:

2's company and 3 is a crowd so I'm guessing 4 means massively?  LOL

Ah, you are talking about the Steam Early Access game ... but i think it was not named LOL.  But close.  ;-)


Have fun

SpottyGekko

Adjuvant1 said:

The current tech demo of Star Citizen allows only for 16 participants on a server. Even with this number, after a period of time the server slows significantly if the participants are distant from one another. Developers attempted to have servers "hold" as many as 20, but after catastrophic failure the number was reduced to 16.

How many participants on a given server do you believe a space mmorpg "Star Citizen" should have? With what number would you be satisfied, if the number is different? Remember, this question is not directed toward a SQ42 release, but rather the original vision on which many backers were "sold", a broad, persistent mmorpg universe.

Further, why are they having such trouble? Will 200+ be possible? I'd expect closer to 2000+. Why should I not expect "thousands"?

You seem to be a bit confused...

You talk about "players on a server", then complain that SC will only allow 16 ? So are you really talking about "per server" or actually "per instance" ?

You're not seriously expecting 2000 players per instance, are you ?  

Even the mighty EVE (most technologically advanced MMO ever made) can only accommodate slightly more than 1000 players in an instance, and that's with some serious play degradation.

As with all MMO's, the entire logged-in population of the server is never all in the same instance. Elite:Dangerous allows around 24 players per instance, but they don't currently allow players to leave their ships, so we'll have to see what happens when E:D implements space-walking a few years from now...

Adjuvant1

How much interaction does one have outside his instance? Is, or is not, "one instance", the entire "world"? I'm seeing another conflation of terms here...

Will your "character's" progress be saved to the "instance" or to the "server"? If I have 16 people on one ship in an instance, you have 16 people on a ship in another instance, can they fight? Can they trade?

This doesn't make sense. How or why would someone have a 25 person ship if that ship will only be in its own "instance"?

So will there be 500 "instances" of "Crusader" in final release or will participants "see" each other?

Erillion

How instances work:






Have fun

Adjuvant1

This all sounds very lonely. So will there not be, for example, fights between 2 teams of 2 25-man ships and 10 single player ships, total 120 players?

This isn't a mmorpg, this is a complex network of instances amounting to a lobby-game co-op.

edit: So under the current design, a 16-man ship can never have combat with another opponent/group of opponents?

SpottyGekko

Adjuvant1 said:

How much interaction does one have outside his instance? Is, or is not, "one instance", the entire "world"? I'm seeing another conflation of terms here...

Will your "character's" progress be saved to the "instance" or to the "server"? If I have 16 people on one ship in an instance, you have 16 people on a ship in another instance, can they fight? Can they trade?

This doesn't make sense. How or why would someone have a 25 person ship if that ship will only be in its own "instance"?

So will there be 500 "instances" of "Crusader" in final release or will participants "see" each other?

Haven't you played any heavily populated MMO's before ?

The "modern" terminology for instances is phasing or similar. For instance, if too many players enter one area of a game world, a second copy of that area is created and all additional players will load into that second copy (instance). The players in one copy of the zone or area obviously cannot interact with others in different instances or copies, even if they all appear to be in the same location in the game world.

Sometimes you can shift between instances by typing a command, sometimes the server will move you automatically if you group with someone in a different instance (providing that instance isn't at max pop).

Instances in SC will work pretty much like they do in any other MMO. Given the amount of customising that is being done on the engine, it's not unreasonable to expect SC's instance limits to be increased as development continues.

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

This all sounds very lonely. So will there not be, for example, fights between 2 teams of 2 25-man ships and 10 single player ships, total 120 players?

This isn't a mmorpg, this is a complex network of instances amounting to a lobby-game co-op.

Based on current testing ?

24 ships in an instance   (PTU Alpha 2.1.1 closed test). Lets make that 16 from the Public Alpha.

Between 1 and 16 people per ship possible (all piled up in a Conny, which was fun ;-) ... 3 in the pilot seats, 2 in the turrets, rest fooling around in the ship  .. dancing, making rude gestures etc ;-)  I think i posted a 12 marine from an player org dancing video recently in the "Community Hub" thread.

Thats 16 x 16 = 256  (and no one should jump out of the ship if possible ;-) at the moment

And as you can have X multiples of these instances ... 256 times X



Have fun

Adjuvant1

SpottyGekko said:

The "modern" terminology for instances is phasing or similar. For instance, if too many players enter one area of a game world, a second copy of that area is created and all additional players will load into that second copy (instance). The players in one copy of the zone or area obviously cannot interact with others in different instances or copies, even if they all appear to be in the same location in the game world.

Yes, sure, but each "toon" or moving entity is one player. In SC, there are "moving platforms" as one entity, populated by multiple players. So, basically you're saying, one 16-man ship is an "entire instance".

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

Adjuvant1 said:

This all sounds very lonely. So will there not be, for example, fights between 2 teams of 2 25-man ships and 10 single player ships, total 120 players?

This isn't a mmorpg, this is a complex network of instances amounting to a lobby-game co-op.

Based on current testing ?

24 ships in an instance   (PTU Alpha 2.1.1 closed test). Lets make that 16 from the Public Alpha.

Between 1 and 16 people per ship possible (all piled up in a Conny, which was fun ;-) ... 3 in the pilot seats, 2 in the turrets, rest fooling around in the ship  .. dancing, making rude gestures etc ;-)  I think i posted a 12 marine from an player org dancing video recently in the "Community Hub" thread.

Thats 16 x 16 = 256  (and no one should jump out of the ship if possible ;-) at the moment

And as you can have X multiples of these instances ... 256 times X



Have fun

No, you're wrong, there were not "16x16" anything , anywhere, in any instance. That statement is intentionally wrong. Now you're saying 16 ships with 16 players in one instance and I know that to not be true.

simsalabim77

I like EVE's single server, but realize that isn't really feasible for a lot of games. Pack as many onto one server as possible without sacrificing performance and stability, IMO. 

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

Between 1 and 16 people per ship possible (all piled up in a Conny, which was fun ;-) ... 3 in the pilot seats, 2 in the turrets, rest fooling around in the ship  .. dancing, making rude gestures etc ;-)  I think i posted a 12 marine from an player org dancing video recently in the "Community Hub" thread.

Also, this is "fun" to you? Huh...

Nanfoodle

Mega Servers IMO is king but seems the OP has some info mixed up.

Erillion

Adjuvant1 said:

No, you're wrong, there were not "16x16" anything , anywhere, in any instance. That statement is intentionally wrong. Now you're saying 16 ships with 16 players in one instance and I know that to not be true.

Nope. That is not what i am saying. That is what you want to hear.

16 ships in one space segment instance (e.g. one of the ComSats)

16 players in one ship instance (don't jump out of the ship in mid flight, thank you very much)


Have fun


PS:

>>> Also, this is "fun" to you? Huh... >>>

Yes, player interaction is fun to me.

Adjuvant1

Nanfoodle said:

Mega Servers IMO is king but seems the OP has some info mixed up.

Well, apparently I do have some info mixed up. If I have a ship, with 15 people on my ship, can I fight anyone? Can I show off my keen 16-person ship to a couple people flying by?

Adjuvant1

Erillion said:

Adjuvant1 said:

No, you're wrong, there were not "16x16" anything , anywhere, in any instance. That statement is intentionally wrong. Now you're saying 16 ships with 16 players in one instance and I know that to not be true.

Nope. That is not what i am saying. That is what you want to hear.

16 ships in one space segment instance (e.g. one of the ComSats)

16 players in one ship instance (don't jump out of the ship in mid flight, thank you very much)


Have fun


PS:

>>> Also, this is "fun" to you? Huh... >>>

Yes, player interaction is fun to me.

Then what is 16x16=256?

Erillion

simsalabim77 said:

I like EVE's single server, but realize that isn't really feasible for a lot of games. Pack as many onto one server as possible without sacrificing performance and stability, IMO. 

EVE does not have a single (hardware) server.  It is a collection of many (hardware) servers, each handling between 1 and 20ish star systems.  They have some special steroid servers ... Jita (maximum 2500, 95 % trading only) and dedicated battle servers  (practical limit 1000ish players, with time dilation).

All of these hardware servers together are "THE single EVE server/shard" because all the EVE players are on the one and only EVE shard.  Well, except for the Chinese players ;-) that have/had their own shard.

CCP is using special hardware they got directly from Intel for that purpose.


Have fun

Taiphoz

I actually hate it when pisy companies brand their games mmo's and the servers or game worlds cant even have 30 people active at the same time, hell DayZ has 60, other shooters have upto 100 any thing bellow 100 per server/instance and trying to call itself an mmo is a joke and the developer needs a wake-up call.

Or worse Singleplayer or co-op games who happen to have a communal lobby calling themselves and MMO god I want to just smash them all over the head.

As a result the term mmo which for the record stands for MASSIVLY Multiplayer Onlie, please note 12 is not fkn Massively nor is 30 or 60 anything bellow 100 is just multiplayer and has been for a long time, hell back when BT ran Wireplay and they had a WWII Fightergame called Air Attack(Fighter Ace in the US) that was a twitch game before its time that had 200 people per server and even then we didnt call it an mmo it was just a cool online game.

I blame sites like this for diluting and destroying the term MMO and making it what it is today, nothing more than a buzz word flung around by developers and publishers in the hope to attract the cash cows that mmo players normally are.

Adjuvant1

I have to hand it to you, though, Erillion. Obviously the base point of the conversation is "number of players who can interact simultaneously" and you went from "my understanding of word instance vs word server" to "SIXTEEN TIMES SIXTEEN IS TWO FIFTY-SIX!". That actually gave me a little bit of a headache.

What's the point of a, say, 10+ crew ship if only 16 players fit in an instance.

MrSnuffles

The fact is that there are ships with 25 people crew alone makes me chuckle. So right now you can't even get a full crew on those.

Now let's assume they will be able to make the instance 100 players. That is again only 4 of these ships. Or 2 plus a couple of escort fighters. Still no room for a large or small corporation to move around in any meaningful way and expect to have any encounters because: "Your instance is full!"

Now don't even get me started on big corporations that want to field 100 people in a big raid against some other corporation.

Not only will they NEVER find the other corporation as the instancing system is random, they also can't have a fight in the first place because: "Sorry, Instance is full!"

rodarin

So SC is basically going to go the route of all the mini server games like ARK and LiF where max numbers are going to be 64 (they cant even do that yet) yet these games are not classified as MMOs....

So what will the max number be per phase with this game? Has that been guessed at yet?

Looks more and more like this is eventually going to be a waiting room game where everyone stands around and waits to enter an 'instance' with players they team up with.

So this groundbreaking historical game is basically ARK Survival of the Fittest and H1Z1 with a 110 million and growing price tag.

MrSnuffles

rodarin said:

So SC is basically going to go the route of all the mini server games like ARK and LiF where max numbers are going to be 64 (they cant even do that yet) yet these games are not classified as MMOs....

So what will the max number be per phase with this game? Has that been guessed at yet?

Looks more and more like this is eventually going to be a waiting room game where everyone stands around and waits to enter an 'instance' with players they team up with.

So this groundbreaking historical game is basically ARK Survival of the Fittest and H1Z1 with a 110 million and growing price tag.

You will be standing in your hangar waiting for a free instance while looking at your $1000



/smh

Shodanas

MrSnuffles said:

The fact is that there are ships with 25 people crew alone makes me chuckle. So right now you can't even get a full crew on those.

Now let's assume they will be able to make the instance 100 players. That is again only 4 of these ships. Or 2 plus a couple of escort fighters. Still no room for a large or small corporation to move around in any meaningful way and expect to have any encounters because: "Your instance is full!"

Now don't even get me started on big corporations that want to field 100 people in a big raid against some other corporation.

Not only will they NEVER find the other corporation as the instancing system is random, they also can't have a fight in the first place because: "Sorry, Instance is full!"

Sorry, but what you just typed makes no sense whatsoever.

As always you presume too much, without having or with minimal knowledge about the subject you negotiate presenting your opinions or biased views as facts.

Same goes for the creator of this thread. He clearly doesn't grasp how instances / shards in modern mmo's work. Or, he does but the consensus doesn't fit his agenda.

This is not a thread made by someone with a honest intend. It's just another attempt to bash on SQ 42 / SC.

Talonsin

Erillion said:

Talonsin said:

2's company and 3 is a crowd so I'm guessing 4 means massively?  LOL

Ah, you are talking about the Steam Early Access game ... but i think it was not named LOL.  But close.  ;-)


Have fun

So 5 or 6?