The fact is that there are ships with 25 people crew alone makes me chuckle. So right now you can't even get a full crew on those.
Now let's assume they will be able to make the instance 100 players. That is again only 4 of these ships. Or 2 plus a couple of escort fighters. Still no room for a large or small corporation to move around in any meaningful way and expect to have any encounters because: "Your instance is full!"
Now don't even get me started on big corporations that want to field 100 people in a big raid against some other corporation.
Not only will they NEVER find the other corporation as the instancing system is random, they also can't have a fight in the first place because: "Sorry, Instance is full!"
Sorry, but what you just typed makes no sense whatsoever.
As always you presume too much, without having or with minimal knowledge about the subject you negotiate presenting your opinions or biased views as facts.
Same goes for the creator of this thread. He clearly doesn't grasp how instances / shards in modern mmo's work. Or, he does but the consensus doesn't fit his agenda.
This is not a thread made by someone with a honest intend. It's just another attempt to bash on SQ 42 / SC.
You're sort of right. I didn't realize this "future-view of game technology" was basically an instanced super-server of 16-man shards (which, incidentally, existed in Champions Online in 2008, and modernly WoW, but you know, they fit more than 16)
I thought, actually, people in 10-25 man ships would be flying around space in a big persistent universe, surrounded by, fighting or interacting with, showing off to, at least hundreds of other participants in simultaneous play. I really, really thought that. Man, mind blown.
So, tell me what you think is the point of "owning" a 16-25 crew ship at this point?
Sorry, but what you just typed makes no sense whatsoever.
As always you presume too much, without having or with minimal knowledge about the subject you negotiate presenting your opinions or biased views as facts.
Same goes for the creator of this thread. He clearly doesn't grasp how instances / shards in modern mmo's work. Or, he does but the consensus doesn't fit his agenda.
This is not a thread made by someone with a honest intend. It's just another attempt to bash on SQ 42 / SC.
So you know? Or are you doing what everyone does trying~ to defend the indefensible...you deflect.
Look if a SHIP counts as a SINGLE entity in these instances/phase, OK. So what happens if there are 8 ships in an instance per side (16 total) and each ship has 24 people on them? Obviously if the cap is 16 then no one can leave the ship for whatever reason. Even IF they raise it to 100 that means only 84 people can leave the ships, meaning a total of 25% of EVERYTHING in the instance can exist in that instance space proper. Not a very good design. If they can get it to 500 then that would be enough for everything in the instance ot exist in that space with 100 left over, highly unlikely from what I have heard.
Its obvious these guys are making instances within instances (what many games do) except ships are moving instances which I am not sure they have the capability of figuring out how to make that work.
Look if a SHIP counts as a SINGLE entity in these instances/phase, OK. So what happens if there are 8 ships in an instance per side (16 total) and each ship has 24 people on them?
After reading this thread all I can say is that I obviously know nothing about SC for certain. But it looks like no one really does. So that probably is ok.
Look if a SHIP counts as a SINGLE entity in these instances/phase, OK. So what happens if there are 8 ships in an instance per side (16 total) and each ship has 24 people on them?
Look if a SHIP counts as a SINGLE entity in these instances/phase, OK. So what happens if there are 8 ships in an instance per side (16 total) and each ship has 24 people on them?
Currently an instance can only have 16 players, and spawn only 16 ships. A game server only holds a single instance, so its only 16 players per server/instance (sure a physical server might run more then a single instance, but they do not interact).
A test was run (stated as a test after the fact), when they upped the number of players to 24 but the total number of ships was still only 16.
It is not 16 players per ship, its 16 players total, with the server/instance only able to spawn a total of 16 ships. If all 16 players get into a single ship, the instance/server is still full.
Look if a SHIP counts as a SINGLE entity in these instances/phase, OK. So what happens if there are 8 ships in an instance per side (16 total) and each ship has 24 people on them?
No. The first thing you linked is, literally, 2 years old (says as of Feb 2014) and doesn't change the fact instances are 16 people today. The second video, from youtube, is speculation and scorg nonsense, for example it opined 75-100 (potentially millions) in an instance, blah blah.
Just no, Shodanas. Those 2 links specifically make people more stupid. Uncool, man.
It's s problem they haven't solved and one of their biggest. Realistically you will need to be able to get 100+ in an instance to create decent space battles.
The 16x16 thing makes no sense. What if they went EVA? What if 1 PERSON went EVA in this scenario? What about boarding - stop people boarding your ship by pop locking it with NPCs or players?
They don't have an engine that can deliver on the kind of picture they painted (and sold).
It's s problem they haven't solved and one of their biggest. Realistically you will need to be able to get 100+ in an instance to create decent space battles.
The 16x16 thing makes no sense. What if they went EVA? What if 1 PERSON went EVA in this scenario? What about boarding - stop people boarding your ship by pop locking it with NPCs or players?
They don't have an engine that can deliver on the kind of picture they painted (and sold).
Well, this isn't to mention that even IF (big IF) such architecture is plausible, it's entirely at the mercy of each and every participant's rig's capacity to receive and process data in real time.
It seems like at the first design meeting when CR said 'we need to able to have battles with hundreds of players' someone should have said 'not CryEngine then'... Or maybe they said 'we need to use the engine with the prettiest graphics'?
Sorry, but what you just typed makes no sense whatsoever.
As always you presume too much, without having or with minimal knowledge about the subject you negotiate presenting your opinions or biased views as facts.
Same goes for the creator of this thread. He clearly doesn't grasp how instances / shards in modern mmo's work. Or, he does but the consensus doesn't fit his agenda.
This is not a thread made by someone with a honest intend. It's just another attempt to bash on SQ 42 / SC.
So you know? Or are you doing what everyone does trying~ to defend the indefensible...you deflect.
Look if a SHIP counts as a SINGLE entity in these instances/phase, OK. So what happens if there are 8 ships in an instance per side (16 total) and each ship has 24 people on them? Obviously if the cap is 16 then no one can leave the ship for whatever reason. Even IF they raise it to 100 that means only 84 people can leave the ships, meaning a total of 25% of EVERYTHING in the instance can exist in that instance space proper. Not a very good design. If they can get it to 500 then that would be enough for everything in the instance ot exist in that space with 100 left over, highly unlikely from what I have heard.
Its obvious these guys are making instances within instances (what many games do) except ships are moving instances which I am not sure they have the capability of figuring out how to make that work.
Seems to me everyone is speaking before they really know what to expect in this regard. I'd have to agree if the numbers do not get above the 100's in a given instance, it's silly to label the game an MMO, it would be more akin to GW1 in terms of architecture. Yet we do not know whether that will be the case or not, so why even attempt to argue about it now?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
This isn't a mmorpg, this is a complex network of instances amounting to a lobby-game co-op.
edit: So under the current design, a 16-man ship can never have combat with another opponent/group of opponents?
This.
SC is not an MMO, and has not been designed properly to be one.
Development on the core game has slowed because they have realised that if they go too far, players will realise the flaw in their design.
So fed up of this lobby style "this is an MMO" BS...
An MMO is an MMO if it has 250+ visible players in a single instance/server/game.
That rules out your large squad based games and things like Joint Ops etc. but rightly gives credit to those that have the infrastructure and skill to develop such a title such as Planetside, Darkfall, World War 2 online, Star Wars Galaxies etc. etc. True MMO's.
How many players should be on a single server with 2016 technology?
All of them.
Especially since EVE has been doing it since 2003. Boom.
Exactly.
Eve has been handling 1000's of players in the same system, in the same fight even, for years. They have several methods of handling it, but, i think for a PU for SC, they really need to be able to support several hundred players in an instance at the same time, particularly if they are having multicrewed ships etc. Otherwise the whole thing is pointless.
A game is not an MMO if it does not support hundreds of players playing TOGETHER. So for a game to be considered an MMO, there must be hundreds in that "instance".
"MMO" was first used to describe UO which supported hundreds at the same time together. It was to separate it from other games that supported a standard amount of players.
About 35k players should be on a server ,that allows a steady flow of about 3k-5k at all times. When talking ships,i would think you need at least 48 or so in one zone to have any meaningful pvp. Multi crew ships?How many of those do we really expect to see,i expect MOST will be playing solo like they do in every game in existence.
More importantly,if there is any kind of limit,how will they handle it?Like you can't have any meaningful GUILD if you limit the entire login screen.Then once in game does a ship see some popup message that says " can't enter,sorry for ruining your immersion,but this zone is full". Personally,i doubt Chris planned any of this,this entire operation is winging it as he goes,X-winging it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
How many players should be on a single server with 2016 technology?
All of them.
Especially since EVE has been doing it since 2003. Boom.
Exactly.
As a 12 year EVE player let me clarify:
EVE is a single shard, not a single server. And even that was not true, as the Chinese had their own shard. EVE consists of many different hardware servers (sent by IBM to CCP for special use) that together form the EVE universe. Every server has between 1 and approx. 20 systems. For higher loads there is the Jita server and dedicated battle servers (the later should be ordered/reserved in advance if possible - most battles are planned).
EVE has crashed all the time since 2003 when too many people came together in one system. Usually the group jumping in died - they watched black screens, while the defenders saw their ships appearing on grid and killed them.
Only since adding time dilation and dedicated battle servers (which you should tell to CCP in advance, so they can fire em up) can any large scale battle occur on equal terms for both sides. Still, anything above 1000 players in one place still means trouble (and can still kill the grid). Thats why large scale engagements spill over to neighbouring systems and supply routes (allowing to split the battle participants over several servers). Jita is a special server with a limit of roughly 2500 (but only because most activity in Jita is station trading and not combat).
Coming back to Star Citizen: Time dilation may work for EVE, but won't really work for Star Citizen. You can slow down all ships (if they are just ships, with no moving avatar inside), but the moment you slow down avatar movement on board of the ships it will cause immense problems (look like a slo mo movie scene). Time dilation won't work in ED either, as the Peer-network-structure of that game is not designed for it.
So .. in summary .... no ... not all of the players can be on a single server with 2016 technology. That includes EVE Online.
How many players should be on a single server with 2016 technology?
All of them.
Especially since EVE has been doing it since 2003. Boom.
Exactly.
As a 12 year EVE player let me clarify:
EVE is a single shard, not a single server. And even that was not true, as the Chinese had their own shard. EVE consists of many different hardware servers (sent by IBM to CCP for special use) that together form the EVE universe. Every server has between 1 and approx. 20 systems. For higher loads there is the Jita server and dedicated battle servers (the later should be ordered/reserved in advance if possible - most battles are planned).
EVE has crashed all the time since 2003 when too many people came together in one system. Usually the group jumping in died - they watched black screens, while the defenders saw their ships appearing on grid and killed them.
Only since adding time dilation and dedicated battle servers (which you should tell to CCP in advance, so they can fire em up) can any large scale battle occur on equal terms for both sides. Still, anything above 1000 players in one place still means trouble (and can still kill the grid). Thats why large scale engagements spill over to neighbouring systems and supply routes (allowing to split the battle participants over several servers). Jita is a special server with a limit of roughly 2500 (but only because most activity in Jita is station trading and not combat).
Coming back to Star Citizen: Time dilation may work for EVE, but won't really work for Star Citizen. You can slow down all ships (if they are just ships, with no moving avatar inside), but the moment you slow down avatar movement on board of the ships it will cause immense problems (look like a slo mo movie scene). Time dilation won't work in ED either, as the Peer-network-structure of that game is not designed for it.
So .. in summary .... no ... not all of the players can be on a single server with 2016 technology. That includes EVE Online.
Have fun
Actually, Jita like Amarr is an active combat zone, very much so, there are alliances/corporations that wardec 10's if not 100's of corporations at a time, so that they can attack them in High Sec, and often in particular, in Jita/Amarr. Its not uncommon for the attackers to stand off of the main trading stations with an MTU and just continously attack ships undocking, and thereby stripping their assets
High Sec, doesn't mean 'Safe' it just means that its 'safer', barring wardecs of course. Oddly enough, for the most part, nullsec is safer if your under a wardec than High Sec is.
But one thing for sure, Jita is not a combat free zone, quite the contrary.
Comments
I thought, actually, people in 10-25 man ships would be flying around space in a big persistent universe, surrounded by, fighting or interacting with, showing off to, at least hundreds of other participants in simultaneous play. I really, really thought that. Man, mind blown.
So, tell me what you think is the point of "owning" a 16-25 crew ship at this point?
Look if a SHIP counts as a SINGLE entity in these instances/phase, OK. So what happens if there are 8 ships in an instance per side (16 total) and each ship has 24 people on them? Obviously if the cap is 16 then no one can leave the ship for whatever reason. Even IF they raise it to 100 that means only 84 people can leave the ships, meaning a total of 25% of EVERYTHING in the instance can exist in that instance space proper. Not a very good design. If they can get it to 500 then that would be enough for everything in the instance ot exist in that space with 100 left over, highly unlikely from what I have heard.
Its obvious these guys are making instances within instances (what many games do) except ships are moving instances which I am not sure they have the capability of figuring out how to make that work.
A test was run (stated as a test after the fact), when they upped the number of players to 24 but the total number of ships was still only 16.
It is not 16 players per ship, its 16 players total, with the server/instance only able to spawn a total of 16 ships. If all 16 players get into a single ship, the instance/server is still full.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
http://battlefield.yougamers.co/video.html#!5f2IM0JAAzA
http://starcitizen.wikia.com/wiki/Instancing
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Just no, Shodanas. Those 2 links specifically make people more stupid. Uncool, man.
The 16x16 thing makes no sense. What if they went EVA? What if 1 PERSON went EVA in this scenario? What about boarding - stop people boarding your ship by pop locking it with NPCs or players?
They don't have an engine that can deliver on the kind of picture they painted (and sold).
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
All of them.
Especially since EVE has been doing it since 2003. Boom.
SC is not an MMO, and has not been designed properly to be one.
Development on the core game has slowed because they have realised that if they go too far, players will realise the flaw in their design.
So fed up of this lobby style "this is an MMO" BS...
An MMO is an MMO if it has 250+ visible players in a single instance/server/game.
That rules out your large squad based games and things like Joint Ops etc. but rightly gives credit to those that have the infrastructure and skill to develop such a title such as Planetside, Darkfall, World War 2 online, Star Wars Galaxies etc. etc. True MMO's.
Exactly.
"MMO" was first used to describe UO which supported hundreds at the same time together. It was to separate it from other games that supported a standard amount of players.
When talking ships,i would think you need at least 48 or so in one zone to have any meaningful pvp.
Multi crew ships?How many of those do we really expect to see,i expect MOST will be playing solo like they do in every game in existence.
More importantly,if there is any kind of limit,how will they handle it?Like you can't have any meaningful GUILD if you limit the entire login screen.Then once in game does a ship see some popup message that says " can't enter,sorry for ruining your immersion,but this zone is full".
Personally,i doubt Chris planned any of this,this entire operation is winging it as he goes,X-winging it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
EVE is a single shard, not a single server. And even that was not true, as the Chinese had their own shard. EVE consists of many different hardware servers (sent by IBM to CCP for special use) that together form the EVE universe. Every server has between 1 and approx. 20 systems. For higher loads there is the Jita server and dedicated battle servers (the later should be ordered/reserved in advance if possible - most battles are planned).
EVE has crashed all the time since 2003 when too many people came together in one system. Usually the group jumping in died - they watched black screens, while the defenders saw their ships appearing on grid and killed them.
Only since adding time dilation and dedicated battle servers (which you should tell to CCP in advance, so they can fire em up) can any large scale battle occur on equal terms for both sides. Still, anything above 1000 players in one place still means trouble (and can still kill the grid). Thats why large scale engagements spill over to neighbouring systems and supply routes (allowing to split the battle participants over several servers). Jita is a special server with a limit of roughly 2500 (but only because most activity in Jita is station trading and not combat).
Coming back to Star Citizen:
Time dilation may work for EVE, but won't really work for Star Citizen. You can slow down all ships (if they are just ships, with no moving avatar inside), but the moment you slow down avatar movement on board of the ships it will cause immense problems (look like a slo mo movie scene). Time dilation won't work in ED either, as the Peer-network-structure of that game is not designed for it.
So .. in summary ....
no ... not all of the players can be on a single server with 2016 technology. That includes EVE Online.
Have fun
Its not uncommon for the attackers to stand off of the main trading stations with an MTU and just continously attack ships undocking, and thereby stripping their assets
High Sec, doesn't mean 'Safe' it just means that its 'safer', barring wardecs of course. Oddly enough, for the most part, nullsec is safer if your under a wardec than High Sec is.
But one thing for sure, Jita is not a combat free zone, quite the contrary.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Jita/kills
current kills in Jita... its a long list, and its an updating list btw.