The only thing mmorpgs need to feel fresh again is to change the open world pve leveling. Grinding mobs and grinding generic quests is not cutting it anymore. No matter how shiny you make your game and how awesome your combat is, if the open world leveling is the same boring generic task dispenser gameplay then every mmorpg will still be more of the same. Leveling is the main feature of all mmorpgs, otherwise we would start at level max to jump right to end game. So yes, that is what needs to be changed and nobody is trying. GW2 tried, but its just a more streamlined (and better) version of the same thing. We need a drastic change in the leveling experience.
Sadly, i don't know what would be a good replacement. But it is very obvious that is what needs to be changed as nothing else has worked. End game only covers the end game. Leveling covers the entire game from zero to max. That is why it is the most important feature and as long as its still just a generic side quest grind all mmorpgs will be the same stale experience.
It will happen the day that someone with enough money/backing gets into the genre with the desire to make a game for the games sake, rather than for profits and investors, etc.
I'd do it, but I can't do much more than mod Cookie Clicker, which is kinda what I'm talking about, no micros, no time wasters to make you spend more time subbing, just a game for games sake that's fun to play because he clearly enjoyed making it (read the code if you want to believe that, he has a few gems in there).
I agree with Zen00 about profits and investors, etc. First and foremost are video games a business, very profitable business. Games are primarily maded to bring as much profit as possible. From this it is not surprising that we see today a flood of shallow,..games as Blade & Soul,...they are relatively cheap & fast to produce,..at the same time they make x millions with such a game within a month, does not matter if the servers are empty after a half year. Quite possible that crowdfunding games will be the one, who will bring new standards.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.
Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.
Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.
I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.
What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
The only true next gen mmorpg idea is EQN. If they will deliver on those ideas to any degree is a long shot though. But on paper those ideas are a huge step forward for the mmorpg genre. The key is that developers stop thinking in produced content for consumption, and start thinking in reusable systems as content, and not only the shallow kind like most pvp games presents, but true sandbox games with advanced and dynamic systems and world. THAT is next gen, or it should be if you ask me.
I could not agree more. Dynamic systems can provide dynamic change. That would keep the game world fresh. AI could be a huge factor here. But a "world AI" could be even bigger.
Imagine NPC MOBs that change the game world by construction/destruction, propagate new numbers rather than simple spawns, seek new habitats for expansion including taking over dungeons from other MOBs, generate wars against player cities, etc.
Imagine world AI (although AI may not be the right term) that slowly changes the flora and fawna in a natural way, causes earthquakes, rock slides, opens crevasses, uncovers ancient ruins, and compliments the NPC AI in the above paragraph.
Exactly. Players are forming the world, and the experiences they have while doing so are mostly unique - A player should be able to say, I am an adventurer and I changed the history of this world (by whatever actions I did before/during/after). One thing to consider though, is I still think it is utopia to think that you can create such perfect AI and systems that they wont go wrong (as in make it un-fun as a game), so just like you need a staff of network maintenance, customer service etc, a staff of permanent GM/Developers should tweak the world to keep it interesting and not falling apart. These GM's combined with the continuously game progression every mmorpg is going through with development, will make the game even more dynamic and interesting place and players will have the freedom to create their own stories as opposed to being railroaded through story content made by others.
In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.
Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.
Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.
I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.
What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
The only true next gen mmorpg idea is EQN. If they will deliver on those ideas to any degree is a long shot though. But on paper those ideas are a huge step forward for the mmorpg genre. The key is that developers stop thinking in produced content for consumption, and start thinking in reusable systems as content, and not only the shallow kind like most pvp games presents, but true sandbox games with advanced and dynamic systems and world. THAT is next gen, or it should be if you ask me.
I could not agree more. Dynamic systems can provide dynamic change. That would keep the game world fresh. AI could be a huge factor here. But a "world AI" could be even bigger.
Imagine NPC MOBs that change the game world by construction/destruction, propagate new numbers rather than simple spawns, seek new habitats for expansion including taking over dungeons from other MOBs, generate wars against player cities, etc.
Imagine world AI (although AI may not be the right term) that slowly changes the flora and fawna in a natural way, causes earthquakes, rock slides, opens crevasses, uncovers ancient ruins, and compliments the NPC AI in the above paragraph.
Exactly. Players are forming the world, and the experiences they have while doing so are mostly unique - A player should be able to say, I am an adventurer and I changed the history of this world (by whatever actions I did before/during/after). One thing to consider though, is I still think it is utopia to think that you can create such perfect AI and systems that they wont go wrong (as in make it un-fun as a game), so just like you need a staff of network maintenance, customer service etc, a staff of permanent GM/Developers should tweak the world to keep it interesting and not falling apart. These GM's combined with the continuously game progression every mmorpg is going through with development, will make the game even more dynamic and interesting place and players will have the freedom to create their own stories as opposed to being railroaded through story content made by others.
Yep. I think the growth of AI and all things worldly has a huge upside. And all that won't come at once. I can see games starting with a limited, but still very active and fun, system and then building on that.
Not just inside one game, either. A few years ago some game developer gave a speech at one of the conferences about this. He said that AI should be developed and saved for use in more games (inside a company), as well as developed further by a team dedicated to the AI systems (outside of any one game). But that went pretty much dropped on the floor.
The future could be very bright if these game companies would get off their arses. Maybe they are but we just don't hear about it? I doubt it under the current standards (and EQNext dropping that NPC AI thing), but who knows.
But I dream of this. I have a 2 year degree in CNC programming (a far cry from gaming) so I do understand the basic of programming. And I've developed AI systems on paper for P+P gaming (not to this extent though), and I've given it some thought frequently over the years since MMORPG's came out (even before, actually, as I thought about the coming computer revolution way back when). I can see an exciting, ever changing and evolving world where GMs play a key roll as overseers much like a group of Dungeon Masters, but on a much grander scale. A world scale. Aided by programs designed to run a changing world on it's own, flushed out by the GMs and tools designed for easy modifications and manipulations of the game world.
It wouldn't be cheap. But it would be very exciting. And the costs could be spread out over more than one game. Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Super Heroes, SPG's and MMO's, whatever, could take advantage of this. And no two "servers" would be alike.
In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.
Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.
Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.
I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.
What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
When a game comes out that does any single thing differently than the games before it, that is evolution. Unless games are coming 100% identical, they are evolving. So I say games are constantly evolving.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The genre will evolve when the greedy people in the companies which have no clue of video games and just want to make money vanish, and the devs listen more to what gamers really want.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The genre will evolve when the greedy people in the companies which have no clue of video games and just want to make money vanish, and the devs listen more to what gamers really want.
Unlikely unless there is a revolution in the way games are made. But then you'll have so many games it will be hard to get through the trash.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.
Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.
Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.
I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.
What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
When a game comes out that does any single thing differently than the games before it, that is evolution. Unless games are coming 100% identical, they are evolving. So I say games are constantly evolving.
I don't think LFG is evolution, it's devolution imo. Let players hash it out I say. Stripping RPG mechanics from an MMORPG is clearly not evolution(World of Warcraft). It might be MMO evolution, but not MMORPG evolution.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
I don't think LFG is evolution, it's devolution imo. Let players hash it out I say. Stripping RPG mechanics from an MMORPG is clearly not evolution(World of Warcraft). It might be MMO evolution, but not MMORPG evolution.
Only because you don't like it.
Devolution is just the same thing. It evolves if you like the direction it goes. Otherwise it devolves.
The genre has evolved. Obviously not into what you deem a good direction. Everything changes; music, movies, literature, etc. Gaming is still relatively new in comparison. In the 80's there were many 'older' communities showing their discontent with the trends of the times. Horror movies, 'heavy' metal/punk bands. Seems like a generational 'gap' thing. As for the examples given, and whether they are evolving or regressing, I believe it is subjective depending on where one stands on them. :awesome:
There should be huge evolution after Oculus Rift is launched.
Leaps in technology are followed by leaps in software.
Oculus doesn't lend itself to long play sessions. I don't see it fitting very well with MMORPG's.
Agreed 100%. I would almost say that the microsoft hololens has a better chance at becoming more mainstream than the rift does. Creating a virtual experience within your environment where you still have peripheral vision of your surroundings most likely won't create as many motion sickness issues with your users.
I have my doubts VR will be more of a flash in the pan until we can just jack in.
One other thing is that the MMORPG genre takes far more time and resources development-wise, which means it evolves slower than other genres.
I think the genre will come back and be awesome again in the next few years. Yes, the Golden Age of MMORPGs is over, the genre's stagnated and has been muddied with non-MMO elements that (more often than not) drag it down; but I think that we'll have rays of hope with the sub-genre's branching out and innovating on their own, leaving room for the original genre to be able reinvigorate itself, maybe we'll even get a 2nd Golden Age.
All it will take is for developers, designers, and publishers to realize one thing: the best way to make money isn't by trying to milk the players' wallets until they leave in a month or two, - the best way to make money is to make a game that actually has staying-power: give the players a game that they can enjoy and keep coming back to over a period of years not just months. This is why World of Warcraft has been able to stay king, and why "Free to Play" micro-payment games are being built to fail, even with 10 years worth of the genre's "innovation" and "evolution".
There should be huge evolution after Oculus Rift is launched.
Leaps in technology are followed by leaps in software.
Oculus doesn't lend itself to long play sessions. I don't see it fitting very well with MMORPG's.
Agreed 100%. I would almost say that the microsoft hololens has a better chance at becoming more mainstream than the rift does. Creating a virtual experience within your environment where you still have peripheral vision of your surroundings most likely won't create as many motion sickness issues with your users.
I have my doubts VR will be more of a flash in the pan until we can just jack in.
I think google VR would be better placed in combination with something akin to laser tag.
Imagine a huge indoor area where you dungeon crawl. You wear body gear that vibrates when you get hit, googles and Wii like control to swing a weapon. The physical dungeon which could just be cushioned wall and other players coordinates with the visual from the googles.
In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.
Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.
Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.
I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.
What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
When a game comes out that does any single thing differently than the games before it, that is evolution. Unless games are coming 100% identical, they are evolving. So I say games are constantly evolving.
I don't think LFG is evolution, it's devolution imo. Let players hash it out I say. Stripping RPG mechanics from an MMORPG is clearly not evolution(World of Warcraft). It might be MMO evolution, but not MMORPG evolution.
devolution is part of evolution. I knew someone would open their mouth about devolution.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
When will MMO's evolve? When the suits have gained every last dollar to be had, by attempting to copy WoW, and not a moment before.
When it doesn't take tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars to create the high end games.
When Dev's care more about the game, than pleasing the suits/investors (see above).
A game called Citadel of Sorcery has some interesting ideas. But they are under staffed, underfunded and may well be in over their heads technology wise.
Here we go, let's try to rant about MMORPG's after I've had a few drinks here...
Will they evolve? Yes, eventually the player bases will be willing to try something new and actually enjoy it.
The problem: Nostalgia, nostalgia, nostalgia. MMO games have gotten extremely stagnant because of this. Everyone it seems is looking for that "what they once had." While this isn't bad necessarily, it really hinders the business perspective on new ideas and methods, trying to do something new is an extreme gamble. Either people will love it (The new 'action' combat based games would be an okay example) or they will loath it.
There is a vast amount of people out there interested in MMO games, but what sells is always going to take priority. Anything else is so much of a risk that they could end up losing more money than making.
Personally, I want change, sure I loved the immersion of EQ and UO... Who doesn't? But fuck, we need something new and exciting already. More western games at that, if I have to look at another Anime-art-style game I'm going to blow my brains out.
Comments
Sadly, i don't know what would be a good replacement. But it is very obvious that is what needs to be changed as nothing else has worked. End game only covers the end game. Leveling covers the entire game from zero to max. That is why it is the most important feature and as long as its still just a generic side quest grind all mmorpgs will be the same stale experience.
I'd do it, but I can't do much more than mod Cookie Clicker, which is kinda what I'm talking about, no micros, no time wasters to make you spend more time subbing, just a game for games sake that's fun to play because he clearly enjoyed making it (read the code if you want to believe that, he has a few gems in there).
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Leaps in technology are followed by leaps in software.
We don't have instances, cross realm servers, instanced teleport, and many convenient features when the genre started.
More features clearly mean LESS limited. Now you don't have to like the features, but certainly there are many new ones since the EQ days.
One thing to consider though, is I still think it is utopia to think that you can create such perfect AI and systems that they wont go wrong (as in make it un-fun as a game), so just like you need a staff of network maintenance, customer service etc, a staff of permanent GM/Developers should tweak the world to keep it interesting and not falling apart.
These GM's combined with the continuously game progression every mmorpg is going through with development, will make the game even more dynamic and interesting place and players will have the freedom to create their own stories as opposed to being railroaded through story content made by others.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I can see games starting with a limited, but still very active and fun, system and then building on that.
Not just inside one game, either. A few years ago some game developer gave a speech at one of the conferences about this. He said that AI should be developed and saved for use in more games (inside a company), as well as developed further by a team dedicated to the AI systems (outside of any one game).
But that went pretty much dropped on the floor.
The future could be very bright if these game companies would get off their arses. Maybe they are but we just don't hear about it? I doubt it under the current standards (and EQNext dropping that NPC AI thing), but who knows.
But I dream of this. I have a 2 year degree in CNC programming (a far cry from gaming) so I do understand the basic of programming. And I've developed AI systems on paper for P+P gaming (not to this extent though), and I've given it some thought frequently over the years since MMORPG's came out (even before, actually, as I thought about the coming computer revolution way back when). I can see an exciting, ever changing and evolving world where GMs play a key roll as overseers much like a group of Dungeon Masters, but on a much grander scale. A world scale. Aided by programs designed to run a changing world on it's own, flushed out by the GMs and tools designed for easy modifications and manipulations of the game world.
It wouldn't be cheap. But it would be very exciting. And the costs could be spread out over more than one game. Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Super Heroes, SPG's and MMO's, whatever, could take advantage of this. And no two "servers" would be alike.
Once upon a time....
When a game comes out that does any single thing differently than the games before it, that is evolution. Unless games are coming 100% identical, they are evolving. So I say games are constantly evolving.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
- Albert Einstein
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Stripping RPG mechanics from an MMORPG is clearly not evolution(World of Warcraft). It might be MMO evolution, but not MMORPG evolution.
Devolution is just the same thing. It evolves if you like the direction it goes. Otherwise it devolves.
To me, MMOs evolved into much better games.
Everything changes; music, movies, literature, etc. Gaming is still relatively new in comparison.
In the 80's there were many 'older' communities showing their discontent with the trends of the times. Horror movies, 'heavy' metal/punk bands.
Seems like a generational 'gap' thing.
As for the examples given, and whether they are evolving or regressing, I believe it is subjective depending on where one stands on them. :awesome:
I have my doubts VR will be more of a flash in the pan until we can just jack in.
I think the genre will come back and be awesome again in the next few years. Yes, the Golden Age of MMORPGs is over, the genre's stagnated and has been muddied with non-MMO elements that (more often than not) drag it down; but I think that we'll have rays of hope with the sub-genre's branching out and innovating on their own, leaving room for the original genre to be able reinvigorate itself, maybe we'll even get a 2nd Golden Age.
All it will take is for developers, designers, and publishers to realize one thing: the best way to make money isn't by trying to milk the players' wallets until they leave in a month or two, - the best way to make money is to make a game that actually has staying-power: give the players a game that they can enjoy and keep coming back to over a period of years not just months. This is why World of Warcraft has been able to stay king, and why "Free to Play" micro-payment games are being built to fail, even with 10 years worth of the genre's "innovation" and "evolution".
Imagine a huge indoor area where you dungeon crawl. You wear body gear that vibrates when you get hit, googles and Wii like control to swing a weapon. The physical dungeon which could just be cushioned wall and other players coordinates with the visual from the googles.
devolution is part of evolution. I knew someone would open their mouth about devolution.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
When it doesn't take tens (if not hundreds) of millions of dollars to create the high end games.
When Dev's care more about the game, than pleasing the suits/investors (see above).
A game called Citadel of Sorcery has some interesting ideas. But they are under staffed, underfunded and may well be in over their heads technology wise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi0hSUBgi0c
http://http//www.citadelofsorcery.com/
Then of course there is No Mans Sky. Just the start of the auto generated content path.
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/02/artificial-universe-no-mans-sky/463308/
Both are interesting possibilities. Many other paths will certainly be tried as well.
The next five to ten years will no doubt be interesting.
Will they evolve? Yes, eventually the player bases will be willing to try something new and actually enjoy it.
The problem: Nostalgia, nostalgia, nostalgia. MMO games have gotten extremely stagnant because of this. Everyone it seems is looking for that "what they once had." While this isn't bad necessarily, it really hinders the business perspective on new ideas and methods, trying to do something new is an extreme gamble. Either people will love it (The new 'action' combat based games would be an okay example) or they will loath it.
There is a vast amount of people out there interested in MMO games, but what sells is always going to take priority. Anything else is so much of a risk that they could end up losing more money than making.
Personally, I want change, sure I loved the immersion of EQ and UO... Who doesn't? But fuck, we need something new and exciting already. More western games at that, if I have to look at another Anime-art-style game I'm going to blow my brains out.