Long story short the true answer is when people stop buying crap. Actually considering sitting down a table with a bunch of people with pale skin and bad facial hair and make a habbit of doing pen and paper sessions which is always cool to do anyways but it's been the only option worth considering lately which says alot for the genre in the last 5 or so years. So, if there ever is a market for that then the genre may start improving.
@Akulas Absolutely. The problem is that market, money talks so much on ideas that are tried and true that even if someone tries to do something new they get ridiculed because it isn't like X, Y, or Z.
Long story short the true answer is when people stop buying crap.
Pretty much this. As long as unfinished , shallow games keep selling , they will keep making them. Or importing them with terrible translations. Or both.
How have other computer game genres evolved? RTSs? FPSs? Sports Games? Puzzles?
Once a computer game genre evolves we typically re-title it... MOBAs for example.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire: Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
How have other computer game genres evolved? RTSs? FPSs? Sports Games? Puzzles?
Once a computer game genre evolves we typically re-title it... MOBAs for example.
Spoken like a true visionary.
It's all been done before, correct?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It wont evolve for now. The big money is out of mmorpg games. Too many tried and they never lived up to the level of investment required.
Some indy dev might come along and really...really innovate...the problem is mmorpg games are so complex and the audience so demanding because we all got spoiled.
The guy above who said "how to become a millaionair: start with a billion and make a mmorpg" nailed it. The talent in gaming is going to just spend a few months, make a solid mobile game, and rake it in. The high production value talent is better off making a $60 single player game, selling content extra as DLC and not dealing with net code, issues with balance, continual problems with exploits and abuse ect...and in the end it will be a better RPG than a mmorpg could ever be.
mmorpgs are like that fish that has fins to swim but can cross small stretches of land. Yeah that shit was cutting edge 500million years ago, but here it is, doing the same thing, for some reason never having evolved past that cool little trick, while other species sprouted legs and walked. That's what I see mmorpgs as right now.
Want the best pvp experience: MOBA games did it better, that crowd is there now. no grinding, little balance issues, its cheap to play, quick in and out, lots of action. MMORPGS cant hang with that.
Want the best PVE experience? Single player RPG does it better, its cheaper long term, better story, your actions actually matter, you CAN be the chosen one rather than a chosen one among every other damn player on screen.
Want the best sandbox? rent a server play any of the early access sandbox games on steam. no need to worry about little 13 year old johnny trying to pee in your cheerios just invite you buddies and make the environment whatever you enjoy
MMORPG games is that damn fish that didn't evolve after being the top of the line evolutionary specimen, its neighbors evolved and are thriving. Yeah theres a link between them still I guess...but if you were a company full of gamer programmers and had lots of cash...you could probably make a single player RPG, a MOBA, and a multiplayer sandbox and make LOTS of money...or you could make one mmorpg, it would probably suck and need to be rushed out due to complexity, and youll end up in a small office alone with the other people who put it all on the line eating ramin explaining to your exwife why you cant pay child support....
Proven fact, wow was an anomaly. Its never going to get topped unless something truly magnificent and unique happens, and it also needs to be big budget looking to get the masses to pay. The time for that happening passed.
We can sit and pray for an indy dev to steamroll into something great at this point. Question is, will the indy devs who could do it be even interested in a mmorpg, or would they just make a cheaper game that will make them better money and wont wreck their lives?
I believe it may be evolving, look at Trove, I don't like it but it's definitely something new and fresh. I think the genre is evolving but it just doesn't evolve into to what everyone prefers. I would say things are pretty good right now, while others would say it's awful. Too each there own.
It also takes time. I remember when dynamic events were the new thing. That stuff blew my mind in awesomeness. Now it's old news. I also think with game development software being more accessible we are going to see more evolution, "good" and "bad".
It wont evolve for now. The big money is out of mmorpg games. Too many tried and they never lived up to the level of investment required.
Some indy dev might come along and really...really innovate...the problem is mmorpg games are so complex and the audience so demanding because we all got spoiled.
The guy above who said "how to become a millaionair: start with a billion and make a mmorpg" nailed it. The talent in gaming is going to just spend a few months, make a solid mobile game, and rake it in. The high production value talent is better off making a $60 single player game, selling content extra as DLC and not dealing with net code, issues with balance, continual problems with exploits and abuse ect...and in the end it will be a better RPG than a mmorpg could ever be.
mmorpgs are like that fish that has fins to swim but can cross small stretches of land. Yeah that shit was cutting edge 500million years ago, but here it is, doing the same thing, for some reason never having evolved past that cool little trick, while other species sprouted legs and walked. That's what I see mmorpgs as right now.
Want the best pvp experience: MOBA games did it better, that crowd is there now. no grinding, little balance issues, its cheap to play, quick in and out, lots of action. MMORPGS cant hang with that.
Want the best PVE experience? Single player RPG does it better, its cheaper long term, better story, your actions actually matter, you CAN be the chosen one rather than a chosen one among every other damn player on screen.
Want the best sandbox? rent a server play any of the early access sandbox games on steam. no need to worry about little 13 year old johnny trying to pee in your cheerios just invite you buddies and make the environment whatever you enjoy
MMORPG games is that damn fish that didn't evolve after being the top of the line evolutionary specimen, its neighbors evolved and are thriving. Yeah theres a link between them still I guess...but if you were a company full of gamer programmers and had lots of cash...you could probably make a single player RPG, a MOBA, and a multiplayer sandbox and make LOTS of money...or you could make one mmorpg, it would probably suck and need to be rushed out due to complexity, and youll end up in a small office alone with the other people who put it all on the line eating ramin explaining to your exwife why you cant pay child support....
Proven fact, wow was an anomaly. Its never going to get topped unless something truly magnificent and unique happens, and it also needs to be big budget looking to get the masses to pay. The time for that happening passed.
We can sit and pray for an indy dev to steamroll into something great at this point. Question is, will the indy devs who could do it be even interested in a mmorpg, or would they just make a cheaper game that will make them better money and wont wreck their lives?
Wow wasn't an anomaly, it just did lots of things right until Blizzard decided to move away from the design that had proved successful.
If we turn this table around and begin to think how we should design a single player game to make it success, i'm sure the first thought wouldn't be "hmm, wonder if people could play this game together in internet".
MMORPGs don't evolve simply because developers and producers refuse to create MMOs and turn them into MOBAs and SPGs instead. It has been proved many times already those games will sell well, and you'll attract lots of players outside of MMO crowd if you add features to your wanna-be-MMO game from those genres, but what you have created is not really a MOBA, nor it's a SPG, but a lousy MMO at best.
We don't have a single real MMORPG game atm, and that's why each and every new so-called-MMO game released are more or less SPG-MOBA-MMORPG hybrids, and looking from outside it certainly looks like adding those features are good for those games, while in reality you only have created a game bundle with 2 or 3 different kind of games wrapped together.
And as you said, SPG's and especially mobile games are much cheaper and faster to make and you can still make a good profit. Looking at from a business perspective it would be insane to even think of making MMO game. When people say that markets have changed and gamers are different than before, they don't mean those changed gamers were playing MMOs; they mean there's no games for us MMOers, because they pay the same as we do, but their products are cheaper to make.
We don't have a single real MMORPG game atm, and that's why each and every new so-called-MMO game released are more or less SPG-MOBA-MMORPG hybrids, and looking from outside it certainly looks like adding those features are good for those games, while in reality you only have created a game bundle with 2 or 3 different kind of games wrapped together.
Well .. that is evolution. If few likes "real" (by your definition) mmorpg, shouldn't the genre evolve into something else (ie. SPG-MOBA-MMORPG hybrids).
And if they are fun for many, what is the problem?
We don't have a single real MMORPG game atm, and that's why each and every new so-called-MMO game released are more or less SPG-MOBA-MMORPG hybrids, and looking from outside it certainly looks like adding those features are good for those games, while in reality you only have created a game bundle with 2 or 3 different kind of games wrapped together.
Well .. that is evolution. If few likes "real" (by your definition) mmorpg, shouldn't the genre evolve into something else (ie. SPG-MOBA-MMORPG hybrids).
And if they are fun for many, what is the problem?
I already said i'm aware they are hugely popular games, but this thread is about MMORPGs, not MOBAs or SPGs.
Lets say you absolutely love romantic comedies, but for some reason producers begin to add action scenes to them. Action movies are very popular, so adding more action to romantic comedies makes them better movies, right? You could even see some growth in viewing figures at first; some of the friends of action movies go see them. They don't laugh and ignore the romantic aspect, but enjoy the action. Meanwhile, most of the comedy lovers have stopped watching them.
Next step in this evolution is when the new audience begins to suggest those movies could be a bit more serious and there could be a little less kissing and relationship centered activity. Some even say there should be more action.
Lets go back to MMOs. That's exactly what has happened to the genre of MMORPGs. It's not something that has happened by accident, and they can still be fun games for lots of people, but saying they are MMORPGs is a lie, and the people who miss playing MMORPGs are not happy at all.
Edit: Somehow i have a feeling we have had this conversation before, Narius.
Pure themepark and MMORPG will probably split. Single player is becoming more MMO like and MMORPG are becoming more single player like. Seems likely a merge will happen.
MMORPG persistent worlds aren't required for coop questing. You can save heavy network coding by having coop and raids being player hosted like Call of Duty.
Themepark in a MMORPG should be the side show. Something of quality that deals with the world's lore. It becoming an engine for progression and the following refinement lead to a probably unsustainable changes for a MMORPG.
In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.
Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.
Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.
I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.
What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
The MMORPG market? It's MMORPG market is done and the bubble has burst, publishers have lost interest and moved on to other things now. We had a massive glut of titles because all the companies thought they could reproduce WoW, they couldn't and have realized it and lost interest.
There is no evolving, there are no new titles at all infact. The games you have now, the games that are on the list to the left will be the same games we will be playing in 5 years so get used to it.
It amazes me how many of you are totally blind and still think publishers care about us as a playerbase, it's not going to evolve because there won't be any new titles.
We don't have a single real MMORPG game atm, and that's why each and every new so-called-MMO game released are more or less SPG-MOBA-MMORPG hybrids, and looking from outside it certainly looks like adding those features are good for those games, while in reality you only have created a game bundle with 2 or 3 different kind of games wrapped together.
Well .. that is evolution. If few likes "real" (by your definition) mmorpg, shouldn't the genre evolve into something else (ie. SPG-MOBA-MMORPG hybrids).
And if they are fun for many, what is the problem?
I already said i'm aware they are hugely popular games, but this thread is about MMORPGs, not MOBAs or SPGs.
No ... this thread is about the evolution of MMORPGs .. and it is certainly fair game to point out that a genre can evolve into something else.
And yes, we had this conversation before. Very little is new here, but that is not the point of this forum, is it?
There is no evolving, there are no new titles at all infact. The games you have now, the games that are on the list to the left will be the same games we will be playing in 5 years so get used to it.
It amazes me how many of you are totally blind and still think publishers care about us as a playerbase, it's not going to evolve because there won't be any new titles.
There is evolving if you count games that are no longer classical MMORPGs, like Division, or Destiny. Evolution is about change, and it does not have to stay within the confine of MMORPGs.
already did. I evolved from a classical MMORPG player to a modern gamer that may play some MMOs.
You're so cool, man. That's gotta feel good...
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I think the industry (at large, not only including MMOs) is optimistic about variety and innovation when it comes to gameplay, graphics, story, etc. However, and more importantly, publishers and investors are increasingly more and more pessimistic and risk adverse and that translates into trends and subsequently stagnation in variety and innovation--and it's very intentional. Investors and publishers exert a tremendous amount of influence over the final product, because they don't give a shit about the player's preference beyond what their focus testing and market research says will produce a safe hit with the shortest breakeven possible.
If you're an investor and a developer comes to you with a pitch for a new MMO featuring an original IP, emergent content tools, and content not focused on quests and combat--chances are you wont be willing to risk the 50-150 million dollars on their game after you've tried to vet their strategy. There's nothing personal, but you have stakeholders that depend on or demand a return on their investment and you can't just risk it on an unproven platform. However, the developer still needs to make a game--so what can the make? Market research shows that WoW is still an industry leader and the emerging Korean MMOs feature similar content and a F2P cash-shop orientated revenue model that seems to be catching on across the entire gaming industry. What other investment would you want to make but the safest one possible? Remember, even if the game was a carbon copy of WoW with crippling P2W cash shop nonsense, it still turns a profit, and if the hype machine's gears were properly greased, it probably broke even a few months out of the gate.
In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.
the genre has already evolved and moved onto MOBAs, instanced pvp games, and non-massively MP online games.
It may not be going where you want it to go, but you can't claim that it has not changed.
I'm talking about the MMORPG genre, which - to me - has nothing to do with what you're talking about.
MOBA is an off-shoot of the RTS genre and MP games in general are also separate.
I haven't been able to detect what I would consider significant change in the MMO genre for a very long time.
That's not to say there have been no changes at all - I just don't think they add up to something that feels truly different - or more importantly - better than what we've played for years.
In my mind, the genre has been more or less stagnant for many years.
Some games have tried to change some aspects of the genre, and I guess some would argue they succeeded. Guild Wars 2 tried to do away with the traditional carrot and brought "dynamic questing" to the playing field. ESO, SWtOR and Secret World went all the way with fully voice acted "cinematic" quests and - as a result - feel largely like singleplayer games.
Many, many smaller MMOs have tried to promote sandbox gameplay, but none of them seem to have truly succeeded in changing the genre standard in a significant way.
I could go on, but I'm just thinking out loud.
What would it take to truly take the genre forward? Are you happy with the way games are just repeating what came before?
When a game comes out that does any single thing differently than the games before it, that is evolution. Unless games are coming 100% identical, they are evolving. So I say games are constantly evolving.
I don't think we agree on the concept of evolution.
To me, evolution is change for the better. "Better" is obviously subjective, but if you think about evolution in traditional terms - better means increased survivability and a superior position in the natural order.
Now, how that translates to the MMO genre is up to the individual. I suppose you could simply look at popularity and revenue - but I don't think that's quite sufficient.
But I think it's clear that any change - whether it influences the genre as a whole or not - isn't evolution just because it's different.
I'm looking for how other people look at evolution, though, and if you really think every single change is an evolution - then that's cool.
already did. I evolved from a classical MMORPG player to a modern gamer that may play some MMOs.
last time I went on a business trip I forgot a sandwich on the counter for a week and a half, and it also evolved...when I returned it was a sandwich no longer. Well it still resembled one from afar but i imagine the experience of eating it would've been totally innovative.
Still it just wasn't for my taste, i don't think. I like to stick to older prefferences. So I threw it away.
Your trolling is sad. Just stop. 1/10
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
When will the genre evolve? When focus is shifted from combat to social interaction. When developers/publishers or whoever is fronting the bill realize that you can't simply make an "MMORPG" like any other game... you must develop a virtual world vs a 'game world'
Comments
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
How have other computer game genres evolved? RTSs? FPSs? Sports Games? Puzzles?
Once a computer game genre evolves we typically re-title it... MOBAs for example.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:
Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
It's all been done before, correct?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It wont evolve for now. The big money is out of mmorpg games. Too many tried and they never lived up to the level of investment required.
Some indy dev might come along and really...really innovate...the problem is mmorpg games are so complex and the audience so demanding because we all got spoiled.
The guy above who said "how to become a millaionair: start with a billion and make a mmorpg" nailed it. The talent in gaming is going to just spend a few months, make a solid mobile game, and rake it in. The high production value talent is better off making a $60 single player game, selling content extra as DLC and not dealing with net code, issues with balance, continual problems with exploits and abuse ect...and in the end it will be a better RPG than a mmorpg could ever be.
mmorpgs are like that fish that has fins to swim but can cross small stretches of land. Yeah that shit was cutting edge 500million years ago, but here it is, doing the same thing, for some reason never having evolved past that cool little trick, while other species sprouted legs and walked. That's what I see mmorpgs as right now.
Want the best pvp experience: MOBA games did it better, that crowd is there now. no grinding, little balance issues, its cheap to play, quick in and out, lots of action. MMORPGS cant hang with that.
Want the best PVE experience? Single player RPG does it better, its cheaper long term, better story, your actions actually matter, you CAN be the chosen one rather than a chosen one among every other damn player on screen.
Want the best sandbox? rent a server play any of the early access sandbox games on steam. no need to worry about little 13 year old johnny trying to pee in your cheerios just invite you buddies and make the environment whatever you enjoy
MMORPG games is that damn fish that didn't evolve after being the top of the line evolutionary specimen, its neighbors evolved and are thriving. Yeah theres a link between them still I guess...but if you were a company full of gamer programmers and had lots of cash...you could probably make a single player RPG, a MOBA, and a multiplayer sandbox and make LOTS of money...or you could make one mmorpg, it would probably suck and need to be rushed out due to complexity, and youll end up in a small office alone with the other people who put it all on the line eating ramin explaining to your exwife why you cant pay child support....
Proven fact, wow was an anomaly. Its never going to get topped unless something truly magnificent and unique happens, and it also needs to be big budget looking to get the masses to pay. The time for that happening passed.
We can sit and pray for an indy dev to steamroll into something great at this point. Question is, will the indy devs who could do it be even interested in a mmorpg, or would they just make a cheaper game that will make them better money and wont wreck their lives?
Oculus is perfect for games that don't have a horizon, such as space MMORPGs, e.g. - Star Citizen and Elite Dangerous.
There should be a very bright future for those two games.
Oculus should be good for MMORPGs with a horizon provided that:
It also takes time. I remember when dynamic events were the new thing. That stuff blew my mind in awesomeness. Now it's old news. I also think with game development software being more accessible we are going to see more evolution, "good" and "bad".
If we turn this table around and begin to think how we should design a single player game to make it success, i'm sure the first thought wouldn't be "hmm, wonder if people could play this game together in internet".
MMORPGs don't evolve simply because developers and producers refuse to create MMOs and turn them into MOBAs and SPGs instead. It has been proved many times already those games will sell well, and you'll attract lots of players outside of MMO crowd if you add features to your wanna-be-MMO game from those genres, but what you have created is not really a MOBA, nor it's a SPG, but a lousy MMO at best.
We don't have a single real MMORPG game atm, and that's why each and every new so-called-MMO game released are more or less SPG-MOBA-MMORPG hybrids, and looking from outside it certainly looks like adding those features are good for those games, while in reality you only have created a game bundle with 2 or 3 different kind of games wrapped together.
And as you said, SPG's and especially mobile games are much cheaper and faster to make and you can still make a good profit. Looking at from a business perspective it would be insane to even think of making MMO game. When people say that markets have changed and gamers are different than before, they don't mean those changed gamers were playing MMOs; they mean there's no games for us MMOers, because they pay the same as we do, but their products are cheaper to make.
And if they are fun for many, what is the problem?
Lets say you absolutely love romantic comedies, but for some reason producers begin to add action scenes to them. Action movies are very popular, so adding more action to romantic comedies makes them better movies, right? You could even see some growth in viewing figures at first; some of the friends of action movies go see them. They don't laugh and ignore the romantic aspect, but enjoy the action. Meanwhile, most of the comedy lovers have stopped watching them.
Next step in this evolution is when the new audience begins to suggest those movies could be a bit more serious and there could be a little less kissing and relationship centered activity. Some even say there should be more action.
Lets go back to MMOs. That's exactly what has happened to the genre of MMORPGs. It's not something that has happened by accident, and they can still be fun games for lots of people, but saying they are MMORPGs is a lie, and the people who miss playing MMORPGs are not happy at all.
Edit: Somehow i have a feeling we have had this conversation before, Narius.
MMORPG persistent worlds aren't required for coop questing. You can save heavy network coding by having coop and raids being player hosted like Call of Duty.
Themepark in a MMORPG should be the side show. Something of quality that deals with the world's lore. It becoming an engine for progression and the following refinement lead to a probably unsustainable changes for a MMORPG.
There is no evolving, there are no new titles at all infact. The games you have now, the games that are on the list to the left will be the same games we will be playing in 5 years so get used to it.
It amazes me how many of you are totally blind and still think publishers care about us as a playerbase, it's not going to evolve because there won't be any new titles.
And yes, we had this conversation before. Very little is new here, but that is not the point of this forum, is it?
There is evolving if you count games that are no longer classical MMORPGs, like Division, or Destiny. Evolution is about change, and it does not have to stay within the confine of MMORPGs.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
If you're an investor and a developer comes to you with a pitch for a new MMO featuring an original IP, emergent content tools, and content not focused on quests and combat--chances are you wont be willing to risk the 50-150 million dollars on their game after you've tried to vet their strategy. There's nothing personal, but you have stakeholders that depend on or demand a return on their investment and you can't just risk it on an unproven platform. However, the developer still needs to make a game--so what can the make? Market research shows that WoW is still an industry leader and the emerging Korean MMOs feature similar content and a F2P cash-shop orientated revenue model that seems to be catching on across the entire gaming industry. What other investment would you want to make but the safest one possible? Remember, even if the game was a carbon copy of WoW with crippling P2W cash shop nonsense, it still turns a profit, and if the hype machine's gears were properly greased, it probably broke even a few months out of the gate.
MOBA is an off-shoot of the RTS genre and MP games in general are also separate.
I haven't been able to detect what I would consider significant change in the MMO genre for a very long time.
That's not to say there have been no changes at all - I just don't think they add up to something that feels truly different - or more importantly - better than what we've played for years.
To me, evolution is change for the better. "Better" is obviously subjective, but if you think about evolution in traditional terms - better means increased survivability and a superior position in the natural order.
Now, how that translates to the MMO genre is up to the individual. I suppose you could simply look at popularity and revenue - but I don't think that's quite sufficient.
But I think it's clear that any change - whether it influences the genre as a whole or not - isn't evolution just because it's different.
I'm looking for how other people look at evolution, though, and if you really think every single change is an evolution - then that's cool.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
narius won this round.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The derivative artists, the perennial sequel-makers, we still have those guys. But they don't produce much originality.