The reason why this works in Black Desert because there is no player dependence on others like your guildmates providing Mats or gear.
If Black Desert had gameplay where you couldn't solo craft everything and crafters had to specialize and trade with others, no trade system would be disastrous.
It works because it's solo centric.
It's also not revolutionary IMO.
The ranged AH prices also prevent free economy again in other games this would be really bad, it works in BD again because it's so solo centric.
Wow!, Trion games and TESO(worst combat and trading ever) are masterpieces and suddenly you become picky about BDO.
Inflation is an outcome of economy setup, not gold sellers or bots.
There are plenty of bots in EVE, yet the economy experience steady deflation for more than 10 years. Most games tho, have their economies as a "filler" and as such they are badly designed and cause "problems".
I recommend you to actually read that second link to get an idea how those things work.
Inflation is an outcome of economy setup, not gold sellers or bots.
There are plenty of bots in EVE, yet the economy experience steady deflation for more than 10 years. Most games tho, have their economies as a "filler" and as such they are badly designed and cause "problems".
I recommend you to actually read that second link to get an idea how those things work.
I did read it this is a quote from it:-
How do gold farmers influence the economy? They have players occupy
the most efficient spots to gain wealth and items other players are forced to
compete even more in order to obtain items and gold. In a MMO certain spots
have monsters with a higher percentage chance to drop valuable items or that
drop more gold then other monsters (or monsters that are easily killed and offer
less potential gold, but many can be killed very quickly). Often groups of gold
farmers will constantly kill all the monsters in these spots and wait for them to
reappear, they are usually able to claim these areas as theirs and theirs alone.
On top of that, by selling items and gold for real life currency, prices will rise
because there is more gold in the market. This gives an advantage to players
who are willing to spend extra money on the game (ExtremeTech Staff, 2006).
The debate was do gold sellers effect the economy not about each games design or filler. So what are your thoughts on gold sellers ?
The solution looks like solving a flea problem by burning your pets. No more fleas. Player trading is a necessity in most games of that gind level (upper grinding levels, if not absoule grinding top). This is not a solution, this is pretending that the problem does not exist.
Actually if you examine how BDO works you'll see that the no p2p trade is not just something like a crude hammer randomly bolted on to prevent gold selling, but a well thought out idea that intertwines seamlessly with various other game systems to improve the game experience, stop gold sellers, and limit the ability to p2w. That's why I find it so intriguing.
How do gold farmers influence the economy? They have players occupy
the most efficient spots to gain wealth and items other players are forced to
compete even more in order to obtain items and gold. In a MMO certain spots
have monsters with a higher percentage chance to drop valuable items or that
drop more gold then other monsters (or monsters that are easily killed and offer
less potential gold, but many can be killed very quickly). Often groups of gold
farmers will constantly kill all the monsters in these spots and wait for them to
reappear, they are usually able to claim these areas as theirs and theirs alone.
On top of that, by selling items and gold for real life currency, prices will rise
because there is more gold in the market. This gives an advantage to players
who are willing to spend extra money on the game (ExtremeTech Staff, 2006).
The debate was do gold sellers effect the economy not about each games design or filler. So what are your thoughts on gold sellers ?
Well, the same can be and is done by players - ie. check Archeage.
The quote refers to farming/gathering mechanics, it isn't "caused" by gold sellers.
It is once again a matter of design - whether and how you make players compete over resources.
I think I expressed my thoughts on it well enough in my posts:
1) RMT is mostly a sign of bad monetization.
2) The major, relevant, harm of RMT comes from illegal activities, not RMT itself.
3) Most percieved issues with game economies are caused by simplistic designs rather than anything else, RMT including. 4) Economical impact is mostly very mild, if any.
How do gold farmers influence the economy? They have players occupy
the most efficient spots to gain wealth and items other players are forced to
compete even more in order to obtain items and gold. In a MMO certain spots
have monsters with a higher percentage chance to drop valuable items or that
drop more gold then other monsters (or monsters that are easily killed and offer
less potential gold, but many can be killed very quickly). Often groups of gold
farmers will constantly kill all the monsters in these spots and wait for them to
reappear, they are usually able to claim these areas as theirs and theirs alone.
On top of that, by selling items and gold for real life currency, prices will rise
because there is more gold in the market. This gives an advantage to players
who are willing to spend extra money on the game (ExtremeTech Staff, 2006).
The debate was do gold sellers effect the economy not about each games design or filler. So what are your thoughts on gold sellers ?
Well, the same can be and is done by players - ie. check Archeage.
The quote refers to farming/gathering mechanics, it isn't "caused" by gold sellers.
It is once again a matter of design - whether and how you make players compete over resources.
I think I expressed my thoughts on it well enough in my posts:
1) RMT is mostly a sign of bad monetization.
2) The major, relevant, harm of RMT comes from illegal activities, not RMT itself.
3) Most percieved issues with game economies are caused by simplistic designs rather than anything else, RMT including. 4) Economical impact is mostly very mild, if any.
So your saying a majority if not all mmo's economies are badly designed ? So what is your solution ? Point 4: I don't agree with as I have shown with links. And you avoid my question of what your thoughts are on gold sellers ?
So your saying a majority if not all mmo's economies are badly designed ? So what is your solution ? Point 4: I don't agree with as I have shown with links. And you avoid my question of what your thoughts are on gold sellers ?
Yes, majority of all MMOs economies are "badly designed" and it is all fine and understandable since economy is not the game's focus.
The question is, what is supposed to be a problem in the first place, if there is any - inflation? value of crafted items? interdependence? etc.. Imo, the endeavor in such direction it is not worth the effort. Robust economy is not a must and mostly conflits with general MMO design layout. Even EVE Online no longer expands on the economy and just throw in more trinkets...
You can disagree with 4) but you will have very difficult time proving it. Just read the whole paper.
I am not sure what more I could add to gold seller/RMT topic. Could you be more specific?
The solution looks like solving a flea problem by burning your pets. No more fleas. Player trading is a necessity in most games of that gind level (upper grinding levels, if not absoule grinding top). This is not a solution, this is pretending that the problem does not exist.
Actually if you examine how BDO works you'll see that the no p2p trade is not just something like a crude hammer randomly bolted on to prevent gold selling, but a well thought out idea that intertwines seamlessly with various other game systems to improve the game experience, stop gold sellers, and limit the ability to p2w. That's why I find it so intriguing.
Yeah the positives outweigh the negetives, but ideally I would like this to NOT have to be the way it is. But realistically this is the best solution to a sandbox game like this for sure.
BDO is not a sandbox
BDO is a sandbox.... I'm guessing your idea of a sandbox is "FFA Full Loot" which is the worst definition of a sandbox ever....
BDO you can grind, quest, do what ever you want... there is no route that is require for you to take... you make the journey and do what you want... that is the true definition of a sandbox..
BDO is a sandbox.... I'm guessing your idea of a sandbox is "FFA Full Loot" which is the worst definition of a sandbox ever....
BDO you can grind, quest, do what ever you want... there is no route that is require for you to take... you make the journey and do what you want... that is the true definition of a sandbox..
Of course there is a route you have to take - you have to level up. The entire game revolves around that point, you move from low level content to higher level content.
BDO is themepark like any other and there is no shame in that
So your saying a majority if not all mmo's economies are badly designed ? So what is your solution ? Point 4: I don't agree with as I have shown with links. And you avoid my question of what your thoughts are on gold sellers ?
Yes, majority of all MMOs economies are "badly designed" and it is all fine and understandable since economy is not the game's focus.
The question is, what is supposed to be a problem in the first place, if there is any - inflation? value of crafted items? interdependence? etc.. Imo, the endeavor in such direction it is not worth the effort. Robust economy is not a must and mostly conflits with general MMO design layout. Even EVE Online no longer expands on the economy and just throw in more trinkets...
You can disagree with 4) but you will have very difficult time proving it. Just read the whole paper.
I am not sure what more I could add to gold seller/RMT topic. Could you be more specific?
So we come back onto topic with BDO choosing to stop real player trading to try and prevent gold selling. I agree with as a way to stop the 3rd party gold sellers even though its sad that they have to do this. The debate on how gold selling impacts games could go on until the cows come home. I believe it does impact the economy and you don't which is fine. I'm interested in what you thoughts are on gold sellers not RMT as some games have RMT in them by their own companies.You think its ok for 3rd party gold sellers or not ?
Oh gosh, this thread has a severe case of the ol' "Sandbox police". As soon as someone even begins to think to mention the word, even loosely or otherwise, they're in your face protecting their precious term.
BDO is a sandbox.... I'm guessing your idea of a sandbox is "FFA Full Loot" which is the worst definition of a sandbox ever....
BDO you can grind, quest, do what ever you want... there is no route that is require for you to take... you make the journey and do what you want... that is the true definition of a sandbox..
Of course there is a route you have to take - you have to level up. The entire game revolves around that point, you move from low level content to higher level content.
BDO is themepark like any other and there is no shame in that
So if there is progression, it cannot be a sandbox ? Has there ever been a sandbox mmo then ?
The solution looks like solving a flea problem by burning your pets. No more fleas. Player trading is a necessity in most games of that gind level (upper grinding levels, if not absoule grinding top). This is not a solution, this is pretending that the problem does not exist.
Actually if you examine how BDO works you'll see that the no p2p trade is not just something like a crude hammer randomly bolted on to prevent gold selling, but a well thought out idea that intertwines seamlessly with various other game systems to improve the game experience, stop gold sellers, and limit the ability to p2w. That's why I find it so intriguing.
At the price of eliminating free trading, and free economy - and again making the entire game extremely solo centric in terms of crafting everyting yourself and not being able to trade gear and crafting mats with anyone - including your friends and guildmates - it feels very isolating.
To some this is no big deal.
To others this is a - not gonna play period.
As I pointed out in a post above, BDO's system doesn't eliminate trading and doesn't make the game solo centric at all under the terms you mention, possibly the opposite if anything.
I agree though that not being able to give friends gear and money feels strange, but it doesn't feel "isolating" (to me at least). Giving or receiving items to other players doesn't account for a particularly large part of my play time, usually we are on team speak doing stuff together, whether it be pvp or pve activities and removing p2p trade certainly doesn't prevent that.
I think some folk will balk at calling BDO a sandbox because they feel it gives the game too many accolades and will cause it to become suddenly relevant and interesting. So they try to downplay it or say it is not. Cutting the nose to spite the face thing but it does not change the facts does it ? Ensue the false arguments and rather ridiculous extrapolations.
So we come back onto topic with BDO choosing to stop real player trading to try and prevent gold selling. I agree with as a way to stop the 3rd party gold sellers even though its sad that they have to do this. The debate on how gold selling impacts games could go on until the cows come home. I believe it does impact the economy and you don't which is fine. I'm interested in what you thoughts are on gold sellers not RMT as some games have RMT in them by their own companies.You think its ok for 3rd party gold sellers or not ?
1) There is no evidence suggesting that RMT has any significant impact on economy - this is no believe, it is lack of evidence.
On the contrary I can provide you links how market reacts on bot mass banning in EVE Online - one is in this very thread, you will find out the impact is very small if any.
Since you seem to prefer your belief rather than base your judgement on evidence, I leave it as that.
2) I was using term RMT in context of 3rd party sellers.
Actually, it is tougher question then it might seem.
I believe, that no company should interfere into 3rd party deals as long as they stay out of their game, but they should have a say against 3rd party services/products that operates "inside" the game, if that makes any sense to you.
IMO there is better ways to stop gold sellers. I get why they are doing it but it takes away allot from the game. This is one of many reasons I have not pre-ordered this game.
Again IMO MMOs are moving to far from its roots. Making content more and more about solo play. How trading and crafting works in this game is more of this bad game design.
A whole game world filled with players and your interaction is brought down to only the most basic level. Combat and chat. So many game mechanics that should be designed for player interaction and its not.
I am interested to see how this plays out over the long haul. My guess it will be small and niche.
IMO there is better ways to stop gold sellers. I get why they are doing it but it takes away allot from the game. This is one of many reasons I have not pre-ordered this game.
Again IMO MMOs are moving to far from its roots. Making content more and more about solo play. How trading and crafting works in this game is more of this bad game design.
A whole game world filled with players and your interaction is brought down to only the most basic level. Combat and chat. So many game mechanics that should be designed for player interaction and its not.
I am interested to see how this plays out over the long haul. My guess it will be small and niche.
Couple of points:
I have not seen any other successful way of stopping gold sellers.
It doesn't "take away from the game", it gives to the game, it is part of what makes the game unique
The trading and crafting in BDO do not promote solo play, you will be relying on goods and items from other players. In theory you can "do it all", but how much time have you got, and will that be practical or enjoyable?
What are the complex player interaction it is missing due to the p2p trade? The only thing you can't do is give items/money to other players.
I also expect it will be a niche game, but ... so what?
So if there is progression, it cannot be a sandbox ? Has there ever been a sandbox mmo then ?
Pretty much. The linearity of the game derives from vertical design - you move up and up and up, only one direction.
Of course there is - EVE Online.
There is the same vertical progression in EVE. You cannot jump in a rank 5 mission as a new player, you have to skill up and aquire better gear (ships). So either EVE and BDO are sandbox games or neither are according to your rules.
You don't have to level in BDO, you can craft all day long, you can stay level 15 and get to rule a NPC empire, craft and get rich. The PVP is only 1 part of the game, no more important than the crafting. Same as EVE.
IMO there is better ways to stop gold sellers. I get why they are doing it but it takes away allot from the game. This is one of many reasons I have not pre-ordered this game.
Again IMO MMOs are moving to far from its roots. Making content more and more about solo play. How trading and crafting works in this game is more of this bad game design.
A whole game world filled with players and your interaction is brought down to only the most basic level. Combat and chat. So many game mechanics that should be designed for player interaction and its not.
I am interested to see how this plays out over the long haul. My guess it will be small and niche.
What are the complex player interaction it is missing due to the p2p trade? The only thing you can't do is give items/money to other players.
I will touch on one area. (could cover many) Friends and guilds. Interdependence brings people together. Guilds looking to members to fill needs like crafting pots and food for raids. Having a friend come join you in a game and helping him out. Guild getting a new member and showing them the acceptance of the members by helping them with pots, items and cash to speed them on their way. Every P2P interaction you remove from a game, the less bonds you create brings you to end game with a shallow community that only has one need. Self interest. Giving is the grounds for friendship.
There are other ways to stop gold sellers, it is more work for the developers but well worth the outcome. This is lazy way to fix a common problem.
There is the same vertical progression in EVE. You cannot jump in a rank 5 mission as a new player, you have to skill up and aquire better gear (ships). So either EVE and BDO are sandbox games or neither are according to your rules.
You don't have to level in BDO, you can craft all day long, you can stay level 15 and get to rule a NPC empire, craft and get rich. The PVP is only 1 part of the game, no more important than the crafting. Same as EVE.
I do not have to do lvl 5 missions, I do not have to do missions at all. I do not have to get "better" ships, I can spent 10 years in T1 frigate and many players do.
There is no where said I need to get into battleships or capitals or w/e. Unlike BDO where the world is created around your progression, you progress from content to content, level to level along the power curve.
It is the driving force of the game.
Crafting in BDO is just a mini-game, a fluff, nothing with complexity that would be affecting design of the game.
Also, good luck crafting with lvl 1 character...even your workers level up.
Comments
http://www.nogold.org/why/
http://www.trinity.edu/adelwich/worlds/articles/trinity.sam.kaminski.pdf
There are plenty of bots in EVE, yet the economy experience steady deflation for more than 10 years. Most games tho, have their economies as a "filler" and as such they are badly designed and cause "problems".
I recommend you to actually read that second link to get an idea how those things work.
How do gold farmers influence the economy? They have players occupy the most efficient spots to gain wealth and items other players are forced to compete even more in order to obtain items and gold. In a MMO certain spots have monsters with a higher percentage chance to drop valuable items or that drop more gold then other monsters (or monsters that are easily killed and offer less potential gold, but many can be killed very quickly). Often groups of gold farmers will constantly kill all the monsters in these spots and wait for them to reappear, they are usually able to claim these areas as theirs and theirs alone. On top of that, by selling items and gold for real life currency, prices will rise because there is more gold in the market. This gives an advantage to players who are willing to spend extra money on the game (ExtremeTech Staff, 2006).
The debate was do gold sellers effect the economy not about each games design or filler. So what are your thoughts on gold sellers ?
The quote refers to farming/gathering mechanics, it isn't "caused" by gold sellers.
It is once again a matter of design - whether and how you make players compete over resources.
I think I expressed my thoughts on it well enough in my posts:
1) RMT is mostly a sign of bad monetization.
2) The major, relevant, harm of RMT comes from illegal activities, not RMT itself.
3) Most percieved issues with game economies are caused by simplistic designs rather than anything else, RMT including.
4) Economical impact is mostly very mild, if any.
Point 4: I don't agree with as I have shown with links. And you avoid my question of what your thoughts are on gold sellers ?
The question is, what is supposed to be a problem in the first place, if there is any - inflation? value of crafted items? interdependence? etc.. Imo, the endeavor in such direction it is not worth the effort. Robust economy is not a must and mostly conflits with general MMO design layout. Even EVE Online no longer expands on the economy and just throw in more trinkets...
You can disagree with 4) but you will have very difficult time proving it. Just read the whole paper.
I am not sure what more I could add to gold seller/RMT topic. Could you be more specific?
BDO you can grind, quest, do what ever you want... there is no route that is require for you to take... you make the journey and do what you want... that is the true definition of a sandbox..
BDO is themepark like any other and there is no shame in that
Tweet at me - Visit my website
Strike one for BDO.
I agree though that not being able to give friends gear and money feels strange, but it doesn't feel "isolating" (to me at least). Giving or receiving items to other players doesn't account for a particularly large part of my play time, usually we are on team speak doing stuff together, whether it be pvp or pve activities and removing p2p trade certainly doesn't prevent that.
Since you seem to prefer your belief rather than base your judgement on evidence, I leave it as that.
2) I was using term RMT in context of 3rd party sellers.
Actually, it is tougher question then it might seem.
I believe, that no company should interfere into 3rd party deals as long as they stay out of their game, but they should have a say against 3rd party services/products that operates "inside" the game, if that makes any sense to you.
Again IMO MMOs are moving to far from its roots. Making content more and more about solo play. How trading and crafting works in this game is more of this bad game design.
A whole game world filled with players and your interaction is brought down to only the most basic level. Combat and chat. So many game mechanics that should be designed for player interaction and its not.
I am interested to see how this plays out over the long haul. My guess it will be small and niche.
Of course there is - EVE Online.
Couple of points:
I have not seen any other successful way of stopping gold sellers.
It doesn't "take away from the game", it gives to the game, it is part of what makes the game unique
The trading and crafting in BDO do not promote solo play, you will be relying on goods and items from other players. In theory you can "do it all", but how much time have you got, and will that be practical or enjoyable?
What are the complex player interaction it is missing due to the p2p trade? The only thing you can't do is give items/money to other players.
I also expect it will be a niche game, but ... so what?
You don't have to level in BDO, you can craft all day long, you can stay level 15 and get to rule a NPC empire, craft and get rich. The PVP is only 1 part of the game, no more important than the crafting. Same as EVE.
There are other ways to stop gold sellers, it is more work for the developers but well worth the outcome. This is lazy way to fix a common problem.
I do not have to get "better" ships, I can spent 10 years in T1 frigate and many players do.
There is no where said I need to get into battleships or capitals or w/e. Unlike BDO where the world is created around your progression, you progress from content to content, level to level along the power curve.
It is the driving force of the game.
Crafting in BDO is just a mini-game, a fluff, nothing with complexity that would be affecting design of the game.
Also, good luck crafting with lvl 1 character...even your workers level up.