For the most part I like crafting in the crafting games I play thus if i was a developer would consider that 'genre of a feature' complete from 'history of game design' perspective and i would focus on other things that havent been done before (not in crafting but at all in gaming).
WITH THAT SAID, I would like to see a crafting game that gets even more into detail on how things are really made. Like 'the stove has to be the right temperature' kind of level or 'the steel we need to make this is heavy and we have to have a truck to get it to location and a forklift' kind of level.
'extreeme' simulators if you will
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
It would depend on the game. You don't want to take a complex crafting system like SWG and drop it into a fast paced ARPG type MMO, likewise, You don't put a system like WoW in a high learning curve MMO.
The biggest thing for me is that leveling crafting has to match the leveling speed of the character. It should be something you need to stop and do, but it should blend with the process seamlessly. Crafting that takes significant;y longer than leveling the character is bad and crafting that is too easy is bad.
I had always enjoyed games where crafting was done while levleing and creating the gear I used to assist my character's leveling process was what worked best.
Current generation MMOs emphasize speed of leveling. This means you level a character, then you can go back and do crafting later. Maybe. To me, this is a failure in game design.
Also, there needs to be a place for crafting at end game. Too many MMOs treat it as a stepping stone to get into endgame but then drops off. Fine, you want raid gear to be top? then make crafted gear upgradeable with materials found in raids.
I would make it extremely time consuming in both getting mats, and the actual craft time. Giving crafting items good to amazing stats so it is rewarding, and there are not 100000000 crafters flooding the market.
The best crafting system is the one where the player focuses on crafting buildings, appliances, clothing, and pets for themself, not for sale. Additionally, the best crafting (and gathering) system is the one where the player plays various minigames to accomplish most crafting, instead of waiting or having a random chance of failure.
No.. just no. The best crafting system is a system where people can actually focus on being crafters and trading their wares. A system like SWG where there is an interdependence and not a whole "you are everything you need to be". The problem now is that crafting and gathering are put in as after thoughts to the entire combat focused games entirely. You can't make your way and actually play someone that crafts and skip the other content because you will be utterly useless after point X.
Crafting needs to be the way to attain the best gear period. Maybe components for that gear come from raids and with interdependence crafters are able to buy that stuff and make that great gear etc. There is literally no reason to craft at this point in most mmorpgs.
The mini games I can agree on though
I hate mini games. The rest is spot on, but mini games are not something I want to do. I'd rather just craft the damn thing and get on wth playing the game I bought, rather than jump through hoops, clicking buttons like a monkey.
I liked the "crafting" in Runescape, everything is pretty much crafted in someway. Woodcutting, smithing, herblore, etc etc. And they all are very rewarding in terms of money.
The Crafting in EQ2 is a Minigame. Plus you can level to cap without ever doing combat. Provided you can acquire the mats. So many people play that game to this day just because of the crafting.
out of all the games I have played with crafting in it EQ2 was the worst crafting engine overall.
I will say that
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
As you were questing you could collect all the resources. Crafting in LOTRO is time consuming. What I would do is gather resources for a week or two, and on a weekend I would start crafting, and while my character slaved away I would pick up my house, it was easily my favorite time of the week. The only issue with their crafting was that in the end, it really didn't matter.
The best crafting I have found was where either the mats or the recipe was hard to get and the final crafted item was wanted...The problem with so many games is they have trivialized crafting to where the items are junk or better stuff is easily found so there is no point in doing it.
Crafting is one system that I feel really needs a complete overhaul. The idea of making completed products in order to increase a skill seems completely wrong to me. Add the fact that there are few (or no) restrictions on who can do a craft, and players will 'do for themselves' rather than participate in an in-game economy.
I would focus on a practice system (with time and expense and NPC guidance) that can increase the skill without producing something usable. No one is going to buy the scrap of wood the carpenter uses to test stains. No one is going to buy the rag the tailor uses to learn stitching.
To control the number of craftsmen, I'd approach the game with the ideas of strong trade guilds and hoarded knowledge, each guild's master with exclusive control of a region's crafting. The guild master allows a limited number of players to pursue the craft as apprentices. The guild master would allocate tasks for the players -- make 100 grade 1 nails, or 10 pairs of grade 3 hinges. The guild master would act as a localized storehouse for community stocks, balancing supply and demand. A blacksmith might be required to make hinges, and if you want to make a chest, a carpenter would purchase the hinges from the blacksmith master.
The guild masters would control the number of craftsmen. The village of Riverview might only allow 3 active blacksmiths to meet all their needs. But the town of Anglewoad might need 15 blacksmiths. A guild master would put out a request to the craftsmen to make products to replenish the local stocks. Requests could be made to a specific craftsman-player via in-game messaging, or via a restricted bulletin board. a request has a due-by date, generally about 5 RL days. Completion of a request improves the standing within the guild. Learning new recipes requires certain standings and skill levels. Failure to complete a request results in a decrease of standing. Missing one assignment might lose X standing; missing 2 consecutive assignments might lose considerably more than twice that amount. Enough bad marks, and the guild master will revoke that license, and recruit another craftsman to take that place. To accommodate real-life absences (vacations, etc.), the player would be able to request a hiatus -- stepping down from the craftsman position for a temporary time putting them on-top of a 'rehire' list.
I think something like this set of systems could be used to make the crafting profession a much more viable element of the game. The time requirements and limited craftsmen would approximate historic apprentice-journeyman-master guilds and prevent everyone in the game from making for themselves. I would hope that regional limitations would actually encourage some real-world economic factors, such as transport costs. Ideally, players should be able to earn enough prestige and knowledge that they might take the guild master positions themselves, allowing them to allocate tasks, teach others and maintain the local stocks.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
1. Resources would move around so no one could hoard them. Every week or two you would have to hunt them down
2. Resources would change over time with different stats allowing for different quality products. You would need to collect different types of wood with different stats which improved different aspects of builds. One stats would give it more durability while another would give more damage.
3. A master weaponsmith who had been collecting resources for 2 years would make a weapon with better stats than a new master weaponsmith. There needs to be a way to differentiate yourself from others in your profession. If every weaponsmith makes the exact same weapons with the exact same stats, whats the point?
4. There would be a use/purpose for lower tier weapons/gear, not just something to be grinded out and disposed of cheaply on the AH
5. There would not be any one best thing, gun, sword, armor ect... Most players would need several of each item for different things they were doing.
6. There would be durability/decay but it would not be fast. That new killer sword should only last you three months at best assuming you made monthly visits to a weaponsmith to have it resurfaced.
7. Personal vendors you could setup in towns, in front of your house or inside your house.
8. Absolutely NO RANDOM NUMBER GENERATION. What is the point of having a skill level if every time you make something it is all based on some random number? There should be some very small percentage of change the construction of the item will fail and a component will break or that when the final assembly happens its stats will not be perfect but none of this Archeage crap.
I wish I had never played SWG and got to see what a decent crafting system was. Crafting was so much better back in the early days of MMO's. I thought crafting in games like WoW was bad but then Archeage came out and I weeped for the old days.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
My two favourite MMO's crafting wise were SWG, and EQ2 (when crafting could kill you, before they nerfed it).
So, if I was going to design a crafting system for an MMO, it would be a combination of both.
I stated eariler but I will put it in better context. EQ2 is the worst crafting engine I personally have ever played. Here is a list of what i consider to be much better crafting engines both in an MMO and Single players
Darkfall Fallen Earth Wurm Online 7 Days to Die Archeage (although I really dont like this game overall)
To be fair I havent played many of what one would call AAA MMOs so I am not saying Eq2 is worse then those because I dont know, just worse from what I have played
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Arrh well I will have to disagree on that on some levels.. First I have seen my share of educated designers, people who think they can design good games because they took a course in game design, none of them had a f.. clue about anything but their narrow taste of nintendo games or other simple types. A game designer needs to have experience and love of playing games and more importantly be analytic and observant of nature, which is mostly a question of personality not something you learn. Only second after that, will the person need to have experience with game design.
Now, especially someone like you DMKano would at least have the experience to judge what is good game design far better than some 20 your old punk who thinks he is a game designer because he took classes. Whether alot of people here could stick through an entire game production, keeping focused even when it got boring and complicated, and would have the people-skill to get a team to believe in you, that is another question - But if you have been playing games for 20 years and has an observant nature, that goes a long way (when it comes to pure game system design). http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/411/game_design_an_introduction.php
Arrh well I will have to disagree on that on some levels.. First I have seen my share of educated designers, people who think they can design good games because they took a course in game design, none of them had a f.. clue about anything but their narrow taste of nintendo games or other simple types. A game designer needs to have experience and love of playing games and more importantly be analytic and observant of nature, which is mostly a question of personality not something you learn. Only second after that, will the person need to have experience with game design.
Now, especially someone like you DMKano would at least have the experience to judge what is good game design far better than some 20 your old punk who thinks he is a game designer because he took classes. Whether alot of people here could stick through an entire game production, keeping focused even when it got boring and complicated, and would have the people-skill to get a team to believe in you, that is another question - But if you have been playing games for 20 years and has an observant nature, that goes a long way (when it comes to pure game system design). http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/411/game_design_an_introduction.php
I think one of the biggest problems in game design and the industry as a whole is that they think the perfect forumla has already been solidified in just 30 years of the industry existing simply because people are falling over themselves to buy into the technology.
people are going to continue to buy games and the overall rate of game purchases are going to increase namely because the technology is the most important form of 'entertainment' revolution to come in the history of mankind not because what they are creating has discovered the perfect forumla.
There is soooooooooo much this tech can do that people arent trying yet. So much in fact I think its fair to say nobody can have a claim on what 'good game design' is. Much more experiementation is needed
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
My two favourite MMO's crafting wise were SWG, and EQ2 (when crafting could kill you, before they nerfed it).
So, if I was going to design a crafting system for an MMO, it would be a combination of both.
I stated eariler but I will put it in better context. EQ2 is the worst crafting engine I personally have ever played. Here is a list of what i consider to be much better crafting engines both in an MMO and Single players
Darkfall Fallen Earth Wurm Online 7 Days to Die Archeage (although I really dont like this game overall)
To be fair I havent played many of what one would call AAA MMOs so I am not saying Eq2 is worse then those because I dont know, just worse from what I have played
7 Days to Die's crafting is basic compared to EQ2. Been playing it since Dec 2014 DarkFall agreed it is a good system (was) Fallen Earth is good as well though not as layered as EQ2s ArcheAge we will agree to disgree on Even Bill Murphy wrote on this site about the top crafting MMOs and EQ2 was on the list. http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/4947 Writing:
Everquest 2
Everquest 2 is
probably best known as “that other game that launched in 2004”, but make
no bones about it: there are some things it does far better than its
release competition. For instance, EQ2’s crafting is by far one of the
more robust systems in the industry. Not only can you make some of the
best items in the game, or decorate your own personal domicle, but the
actual process is a lot more than just gathering ingredients and
pressing a couple clicks. It’s actually an active experience. Can it
be repetitive? Absolutely. But it’s also one of the most layered
systems out there.
EQ2 crafting used to be able to kill you. You obviously never really played much of EQ2 and spent time with the crafting other than say 5 to 10 levels? Like the game or not the crafting is one of the main strengths of the game. Why do you think is being brought up so much in this thread?
clearly I disagree and mostly for one major point.
I think you are focused on the ACTION of crafting and not the overall reasons to craft which is what I look at
crafting in a game should matter and in 7 Days as an example, if you dont craft and build you die so that kinda matters
Crafting in EQ2 barely makes any difference at all in your character progression or his possible stack of goodies. That is why I left. I didnt want crafting to be a 'mini game' I wanted crafting to matter.
So I went to Darkfall which had a much more interesting crafting, multiple itesm to make something, many things to make, clan level crafting it was light years better
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
WITH THAT SAID, I would like to see a crafting game that gets even more into detail on how things are really made. Like 'the stove has to be the right temperature' kind of level or 'the steel we need to make this is heavy and we have to have a truck to get it to location and a forklift' kind of level.
'extreeme' simulators if you will
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The biggest thing for me is that leveling crafting has to match the leveling speed of the character. It should be something you need to stop and do, but it should blend with the process seamlessly. Crafting that takes significant;y longer than leveling the character is bad and crafting that is too easy is bad.
I had always enjoyed games where crafting was done while levleing and creating the gear I used to assist my character's leveling process was what worked best.
Current generation MMOs emphasize speed of leveling. This means you level a character, then you can go back and do crafting later. Maybe. To me, this is a failure in game design.
Also, there needs to be a place for crafting at end game. Too many MMOs treat it as a stepping stone to get into endgame but then drops off. Fine, you want raid gear to be top? then make crafted gear upgradeable with materials found in raids.
Edit.
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I will say that
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
As you were questing you could collect all the resources. Crafting in LOTRO is time consuming. What I would do is gather resources for a week or two, and on a weekend I would start crafting, and while my character slaved away I would pick up my house, it was easily my favorite time of the week. The only issue with their crafting was that in the end, it really didn't matter.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I would focus on a practice system (with time and expense and NPC guidance) that can increase the skill without producing something usable. No one is going to buy the scrap of wood the carpenter uses to test stains. No one is going to buy the rag the tailor uses to learn stitching.
To control the number of craftsmen, I'd approach the game with the ideas of strong trade guilds and hoarded knowledge, each guild's master with exclusive control of a region's crafting. The guild master allows a limited number of players to pursue the craft as apprentices. The guild master would allocate tasks for the players -- make 100 grade 1 nails, or 10 pairs of grade 3 hinges. The guild master would act as a localized storehouse for community stocks, balancing supply and demand. A blacksmith might be required to make hinges, and if you want to make a chest, a carpenter would purchase the hinges from the blacksmith master.
The guild masters would control the number of craftsmen. The village of Riverview might only allow 3 active blacksmiths to meet all their needs. But the town of Anglewoad might need 15 blacksmiths. A guild master would put out a request to the craftsmen to make products to replenish the local stocks. Requests could be made to a specific craftsman-player via in-game messaging, or via a restricted bulletin board. a request has a due-by date, generally about 5 RL days. Completion of a request improves the standing within the guild. Learning new recipes requires certain standings and skill levels. Failure to complete a request results in a decrease of standing. Missing one assignment might lose X standing; missing 2 consecutive assignments might lose considerably more than twice that amount. Enough bad marks, and the guild master will revoke that license, and recruit another craftsman to take that place. To accommodate real-life absences (vacations, etc.), the player would be able to request a hiatus -- stepping down from the craftsman position for a temporary time putting them on-top of a 'rehire' list.
I think something like this set of systems could be used to make the crafting profession a much more viable element of the game. The time requirements and limited craftsmen would approximate historic apprentice-journeyman-master guilds and prevent everyone in the game from making for themselves. I would hope that regional limitations would actually encourage some real-world economic factors, such as transport costs. Ideally, players should be able to earn enough prestige and knowledge that they might take the guild master positions themselves, allowing them to allocate tasks, teach others and maintain the local stocks.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
1. Resources would move around so no one could hoard them. Every week or two you would have to hunt them down
2. Resources would change over time with different stats allowing for different quality products. You would need to collect different types of wood with different stats which improved different aspects of builds. One stats would give it more durability while another would give more damage.
3. A master weaponsmith who had been collecting resources for 2 years would make a weapon with better stats than a new master weaponsmith. There needs to be a way to differentiate yourself from others in your profession. If every weaponsmith makes the exact same weapons with the exact same stats, whats the point?
4. There would be a use/purpose for lower tier weapons/gear, not just something to be grinded out and disposed of cheaply on the AH
5. There would not be any one best thing, gun, sword, armor ect... Most players would need several of each item for different things they were doing.
6. There would be durability/decay but it would not be fast. That new killer sword should only last you three months at best assuming you made monthly visits to a weaponsmith to have it resurfaced.
7. Personal vendors you could setup in towns, in front of your house or inside your house.
8. Absolutely NO RANDOM NUMBER GENERATION. What is the point of having a skill level if every time you make something it is all based on some random number? There should be some very small percentage of change the construction of the item will fail and a component will break or that when the final assembly happens its stats will not be perfect but none of this Archeage crap.
I wish I had never played SWG and got to see what a decent crafting system was. Crafting was so much better back in the early days of MMO's. I thought crafting in games like WoW was bad but then Archeage came out and I weeped for the old days.
Some formulas having interchangeable steps. Like making Plate you get different qualities and colors if you use bronze, steel or magic metal X.
Localized ingredents and formulas in a big world to give culture a chance lol.
No one weapon, armor and equipment being the best in all situations.
So, if I was going to design a crafting system for an MMO, it would be a combination of both.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Darkfall
Fallen Earth
Wurm Online
7 Days to Die
Archeage (although I really dont like this game overall)
To be fair I havent played many of what one would call AAA MMOs so I am not saying Eq2 is worse then those because I dont know, just worse from what I have played
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
First I have seen my share of educated designers, people who think they can design good games because they took a course in game design, none of them had a f.. clue about anything but their narrow taste of nintendo games or other simple types.
A game designer needs to have experience and love of playing games and more importantly be analytic and observant of nature, which is mostly a question of personality not something you learn. Only second after that, will the person need to have experience with game design.
Now, especially someone like you DMKano would at least have the experience to judge what is good game design far better than some 20 your old punk who thinks he is a game designer because he took classes. Whether alot of people here could stick through an entire game production, keeping focused even when it got boring and complicated, and would have the people-skill to get a team to believe in you, that is another question - But if you have been playing games for 20 years and has an observant nature, that goes a long way (when it comes to pure game system design).
http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/411/game_design_an_introduction.php
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
people are going to continue to buy games and the overall rate of game purchases are going to increase namely because the technology is the most important form of 'entertainment' revolution to come in the history of mankind not because what they are creating has discovered the perfect forumla.
There is soooooooooo much this tech can do that people arent trying yet. So much in fact I think its fair to say nobody can have a claim on what 'good game design' is. Much more experiementation is needed
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I think you are focused on the ACTION of crafting and not the overall reasons to craft which is what I look at
crafting in a game should matter and in 7 Days as an example, if you dont craft and build you die so that kinda matters
Crafting in EQ2 barely makes any difference at all in your character progression or his possible stack of goodies. That is why I left. I didnt want crafting to be a 'mini game' I wanted crafting to matter.
So I went to Darkfall which had a much more interesting crafting, multiple itesm to make something, many things to make, clan level crafting it was light years better
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
SWG had the perfect crafting. Go google some videos if you have no clue what im talking about.
Crafting in any game is pointless when items never decay.
Crafting is no good when everyone can craft the exact same cookie cutter shit.
I can list about 12 more things but I will save you the time
- Albert Einstein