SWG had the perfect crafting. Go google some videos if you have no clue what im talking about.
Crafting in any game is pointless when items never decay.
Crafting is no good when everyone can craft the exact same cookie cutter shit.
I can list about 12 more things but I will save you the time
i would go as far as to say 'pointless' but decay system is good.
The main thing is crafting item X should have a point. In games like EQ2 when you can basically get the same item by looting it doesnt make much sense. In my favorite crafting games you craft or you die....its that simple
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
SWG had the perfect crafting. Go google some videos if you have no clue what im talking about.
Crafting in any game is pointless when items never decay.
Crafting is no good when everyone can craft the exact same cookie cutter shit.
I can list about 12 more things but I will save you the time
i would go as far as to say 'pointless' but decay system is good.
The main thing is crafting item X should have a point. In games like EQ2 when you can basically get the same item by looting it doesnt make much sense. In my favorite crafting games you craft or you die....its that simple
I can understand that. You prefer Virtual Worlds more than MMOs. In Virtual Worlds crafting is (usually) essential for survival. While in an MMO they may provide the best gear in the game (or not) plus are another form of gameplay other than Murder.Death.Kill. I crafted more than I did combat in DAoC. My crafting was needed. I am a furniture maker in EQ2 so there is a place for me because people love to buy from me to decorate their house or Guild Hall.
close but I 'crafting or die' is not a requirement I was just using that to illustrate that I do like games where crafting does make a difference. I also like crafting that has at least a few layers of depth.
A perfect example of a game where crafting is not a do or die thing but is deep and interesting (far more than EQ2) would be Fallen Earth.
Fallen Earth by the way is free and if you think EQ2 crafting is good and you want to get a baseline of why I suggest that its not then I HIGHLY suggest checking Fallen Earth out.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I had a crafting system in a Neverwinter Nights world I made 100 years ago. It was very popular. The crafting itself was almost a little minigame were yo uhad to prepare components and then work on them on another crafting device. Felt like you were actually doing something not just clicking a progress bar. Every step of the way your skill was checked and it was a sliding scale of success from catastrophe to legendary success. Depending on what part of the item you were working on the sugreat success could mean a huge bonus to a certain aspect of that item, a failure could mean a small negative somewhere or even destroy the process. Getting legendary successes was a rare thing and getting it on several different steps was pretty much impossible but because of the way the system worked you could have a sword that had some great stats here but a bad one there or a weirdness over there and it made for some great items.
I also think that crafting should be a big part of the game, as in, you can be a sword maker and you make normal swords that are sold to the NPC market or even on random quests "Barracks needs 100 longswords, assasins guild wants 10 daggers of specific quality or feature". This would make crafters not just shooting for super uber items, although they would for players. They would generally be making different kinds of weapons and shooting for different kinds of qualities or features for quests. Some of those items or features might require certain kinds of components or travel which Is where the crafters adventure comes from
"The Crafters Adventure" is now Copyrighted by me as a game I will make!
I had a crafting system in a Neverwinter Nights world I made 100 years ago. It was very popular. The crafting itself was almost a little minigame were yo uhad to prepare components and then work on them on another crafting device. Felt like you were actually doing something not just clicking a progress bar. Every step of the way your skill was checked and it was a sliding scale of success from catastrophe to legendary success. Depending on what part of the item you were working on the sugreat success could mean a huge bonus to a certain aspect of that item, a failure could mean a small negative somewhere or even destroy the process. Getting legendary successes was a rare thing and getting it on several different steps was pretty much impossible but because of the way the system worked you could have a sword that had some great stats here but a bad one there or a weirdness over there and it made for some great items.
I also think that crafting should be a big part of the game, as in, you can be a sword maker and you make normal swords that are sold to the NPC market or even on random quests "Barracks needs 100 longswords, assasins guild wants 10 daggers of specific quality or feature". This would make crafters not just shooting for super uber items, although they would for players. They would generally be making different kinds of weapons and shooting for different kinds of qualities or features for quests. Some of those items or features might require certain kinds of components or travel which Is where the crafters adventure comes from
"The Crafters Adventure" is now Copyrighted by me as a game I will make!
if that was on the same server as I played on, it was the first crafting engine I had exposure to and it basically 'kickstarted' my interest in crafting. I dont recall the exact crafting engine though. Later (if I recall) Neverwinter Nights 2 had a crafting engine in the game itself that was fairly interesting.
I recall the server had housing as well.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The best crafting system is the one where the player focuses on crafting buildings, appliances, clothing, and pets for themself, not for sale. Additionally, the best crafting (and gathering) system is the one where the player plays various minigames to accomplish most crafting, instead of waiting or having a random chance of failure.
No.. just no. The best crafting system is a system where people can actually focus on being crafters and trading their wares. A system like SWG where there is an interdependence and not a whole "you are everything you need to be". The problem now is that crafting and gathering are put in as after thoughts to the entire combat focused games entirely. You can't make your way and actually play someone that crafts and skip the other content because you will be utterly useless after point X.
Crafting needs to be the way to attain the best gear period. Maybe components for that gear come from raids and with interdependence crafters are able to buy that stuff and make that great gear etc. There is literally no reason to craft at this point in most mmorpgs.
The mini games I can agree on though
I hate mini games. The rest is spot on, but mini games are not something I want to do. I'd rather just craft the damn thing and get on wth playing the game I bought, rather than jump through hoops, clicking buttons like a monkey.
Yeah the mini games i can only really agree on as something sorta diff and all. That said I prefer SWG's system far more than anything else. Relying on players, gatherers etc to provide you materials being able to actually be a crafter etc. I'd love to see the ability to own store fronts in town in games for people to peddle their wares and i'm not talking age of wushu stall like things either I mean like a full on smithy if you are a weapon smith etc. Hell you could adopt a system similar to BDO's instanced housing to do this and players could pick whose smithy / shop etc to hit up or what have you.
These games have so much potential to do far far more than the developers have been doing because they've come into this whole stagnation of gaming that has happened. Gone are the days where innovative ideas that will carve out a niche are on the table and now it is just about how to maximize profitibility by bringing in the largest player base possible and the larger problem at hand is that they look at World Of Warcraft a highly casualized (and getting more so with each expansion) MMORPG and figure this is somehow natural growth or a group of players that are actually MMORPG players to begin with.
Let me get something out of the way here that I feel I have to put out there frequently enough as it seems to fall on deaf ears all to often - World Of Warcraft's player base is in large part never ever ever going to be an MMORPG player base. These are not players that will enjoy anything outside of World Of Warcraft in large part and I'd put about maybe 20% of WoW's total player base would actually move around and find a place to settle down in other MMORPGs.
We no longer have expansive worlds, expansive journeys, any real interdependence for crafting, no real world were crafting actually matters long term and we are at this moment where we casualize the hell out of these games to make getting to "end game" be the key factor and that's "where the game starts" even though that is basically a literal treadmill of doing the same content over and over to get set up gear wise to do the next set of content over and over and that's even assuming there is enough content added that you aren't just waiting for the next expansion to come along for more content at all.
It's why i have more interest in the things starting to churn around in the independent studios MMORPG wise than I will likely ever be in anything made by a large studio backed by a AAA publisher...
personally I think any discussion on crafting should require the members of the conversation to have played either Wurm Online or Fallen Earth to have context of what a 'crafting focused game' can be
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The best crafting system is the one where the player focuses on crafting buildings, appliances, clothing, and pets for themself, not for sale. Additionally, the best crafting (and gathering) system is the one where the player plays various minigames to accomplish most crafting, instead of waiting or having a random chance of failure.
No.. just no. The best crafting system is a system where people can actually focus on being crafters and trading their wares. A system like SWG where there is an interdependence and not a whole "you are everything you need to be". The problem now is that crafting and gathering are put in as after thoughts to the entire combat focused games entirely. You can't make your way and actually play someone that crafts and skip the other content because you will be utterly useless after point X.
Bleh. Each player should be allowed to decide how independent they want to be - interdependence will happen naturally because everyone will dislike some type of gathering or crafting or combat. Some players' favorite thing is to be the completely independent person who does everything, and there's no reason to deny them their fun, because it doesn't harm other players. There's no need to force interdependence by trying to make crafting something only a few players do, or trying to limit how many types of item each player can craft, or any of that.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
The best crafting system is the one where the player focuses on crafting buildings, appliances, clothing, and pets for themself, not for sale. Additionally, the best crafting (and gathering) system is the one where the player plays various minigames to accomplish most crafting, instead of waiting or having a random chance of failure.
No.. just no. The best crafting system is a system where people can actually focus on being crafters and trading their wares. A system like SWG where there is an interdependence and not a whole "you are everything you need to be". The problem now is that crafting and gathering are put in as after thoughts to the entire combat focused games entirely. You can't make your way and actually play someone that crafts and skip the other content because you will be utterly useless after point X.
Bleh. Each player should be allowed to decide how independent they want to be - interdependence will happen naturally because everyone will dislike some type of gathering or crafting or combat. Some players' favorite thing is to be the completely independent person who does everything, and there's no reason to deny them their fun, because it doesn't harm other players. There's no need to force interdependence by trying to make crafting something only a few players do, or trying to limit how many types of item each player can craft, or any of that.
and to be honest good efforts have been put into place to 'encourage' interdependence but players typically just create an alt or put in a LOT of time so they can have all the skills.
which is fine, its more of a testimate that many people just dont like other gamers more than anything else.
I dont like being put in situations where people are struggling for power, I get enough of that crap from work
who was it that said 'A dinner party is not a social event, its warfare'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The best crafting system is the one where the player focuses on crafting buildings, appliances, clothing, and pets for themself, not for sale. Additionally, the best crafting (and gathering) system is the one where the player plays various minigames to accomplish most crafting, instead of waiting or having a random chance of failure.
No.. just no. The best crafting system is a system where people can actually focus on being crafters and trading their wares. A system like SWG where there is an interdependence and not a whole "you are everything you need to be". The problem now is that crafting and gathering are put in as after thoughts to the entire combat focused games entirely. You can't make your way and actually play someone that crafts and skip the other content because you will be utterly useless after point X.
Bleh. Each player should be allowed to decide how independent they want to be - interdependence will happen naturally because everyone will dislike some type of gathering or crafting or combat. Some players' favorite thing is to be the completely independent person who does everything, and there's no reason to deny them their fun, because it doesn't harm other players. There's no need to force interdependence by trying to make crafting something only a few players do, or trying to limit how many types of item each player can craft, or any of that.
I think crafter should be able to make quality products solo. Legendary should take multiple specialized crafter for each step and some luck.
Arrh well I will have to disagree on that on some levels.. First I have seen my share of educated designers, people who think they can design good games because they took a course in game design, none of them had a f.. clue about anything but their narrow taste of nintendo games or other simple types. A game designer needs to have experience and love of playing games and more importantly be analytic and observant of nature, which is mostly a question of personality not something you learn. Only second after that, will the person need to have experience with game design.
Now, especially someone like you DMKano would at least have the experience to judge what is good game design far better than some 20 your old punk who thinks he is a game designer because he took classes. Whether alot of people here could stick through an entire game production, keeping focused even when it got boring and complicated, and would have the people-skill to get a team to believe in you, that is another question - But if you have been playing games for 20 years and has an observant nature, that goes a long way (when it comes to pure game system design). http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/411/game_design_an_introduction.php
I find both of these views to be narrow. Obviously, a career in game design is necessary to develop practical experience and realize one's design goals, but game design is in itself an infinitely broad, subjective term. There is no one answer. There is almost no such thing as objectively bad design. The goal of the designer is simply to make all of the parts into a cohesive whole.
many are under the delusion that because they play games they have the design skills.
This is a ridiculous statement in the extreme. The majority of people who design games today are doing it because they played games when they were growing up and said "I can do that, and I have my own ideas".
Just look at Chris Roberts, IceFrog, Markus Persson... all people who just one day said "I can do this and I can do it better."
In fact many industries are full of people who did this. Such as one of the worlds highest grossing directors of all time, James Cameron who was a Canadian truck driver that one day said "I can make movies and I can make them better." So he drove to California and literally forced his way into the industry.
Under your simple logic, he should have just stayed a truck driver, cause what the fuck does James Cameron know about making movies.
Well i have no doubt many have great ideas and can pull them off,they still have a boss who has a boos and it all revolves around money.
As an employee you likely have no say at all.
As to the type of crafting i would design.Far too big and in depth to explain it and would take a lot of coding/menus to pull it off.
Basically i would aim to eliminate Wiki and create random equations,results.There is no real such thing as random,it still has to have inputs and integers and a set data to draw from but allowing that data to change from player to player is where i would aim. example just because you might do a series of quests to uncover a secret recipe that might be found or some npc gives you ,might not be the same route another player has to go to get that same recipe and even then the result would be slightly different based on your actions and favor with the npc.
As to how you craft,i am fine with EQ2 mini game but doing it better,bigger bolder and combining it with similar ideas from FFXI's newer crafting system would be cool.I would like to see around 5-6 action reaction choices to keep on on it's toes,then choices to push the limits to get varied results instead of just one HQ result.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Arrh well I will have to disagree on that on some levels.. First I have seen my share of educated designers, people who think they can design good games because they took a course in game design, none of them had a f.. clue about anything but their narrow taste of nintendo games or other simple types. A game designer needs to have experience and love of playing games and more importantly be analytic and observant of nature, which is mostly a question of personality not something you learn. Only second after that, will the person need to have experience with game design.
Now, especially someone like you DMKano would at least have the experience to judge what is good game design far better than some 20 your old punk who thinks he is a game designer because he took classes. Whether alot of people here could stick through an entire game production, keeping focused even when it got boring and complicated, and would have the people-skill to get a team to believe in you, that is another question - But if you have been playing games for 20 years and has an observant nature, that goes a long way (when it comes to pure game system design). http://www.gamecareerguide.com/features/411/game_design_an_introduction.php
I personally have been a gamer for almost 30 years, playing about 80% of the genres of games that exist. For 15 of those years I've been studying game design and trying to get into it as a hobbyist. So from personal experience I can tell you that no one pays attention to these kinds of qualifications at all. :silenced: Now people-skills, those I don't have. I'm no leader, nor politician, and I wouldn't even want to be except that I hate how, if you have neither money or charisma, no one wants to listen to your ideas.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
personally I think any discussion on crafting should require the members of the conversation to have played either Wurm Online or Fallen Earth to have context of what a 'crafting focused game' can be
Wurm is very niche for sure and that is why it never caught on. The Sub fee plus the Deed Upkeep costs did not help either. I think they went a little too grind heavy with Wurm Online. That has been lessened with Wurm Unlimited. WU is the game many players were wanting. Now being free to set the rules themselves. Anyway.....
FE is a solid crafting game but the game around it falls flat. GamersFirst has not done the game any favors for sure. That is why the reviews are about 50% split like and dislike. With most of the positive reviews from way back. Game is more pay to be the best then play to have fun. Do not even get me started on the combat. Ugh. Yet as whatever his name is above me said the crafting is pretty good. Borderline great. Yet because the game around the crafting is so broken crafting does not matter. At one time it did. Not now.
Those two games being good overall is aside from the point I was making.
Many people have zero concept at all whatsoever what it means when someone say 'deep crafting' at least having played those two games said people would have a clue about the subject of 'crafting'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I do not think being 'Deep' is a requirement to the system being fun. Besides everyone's definition of a deep system is going to vary. Shroud of the Avatar has a fun crafting system but I would not call it deep. EQ2 most would agree ( I know, I know, you do not) has a fun crafting system but deep is not something I would call it. Just like combat does not have to be a deep system to be fun. Some even prefer it not to be. My topic was 'If you were in charge of crafting for an MMO how would you design it?' Some would look at Fallen Earth and say "Wow that crafting system is way too involved and not very fun. I would rather have Rift's crafting system" Others, like yourself, look at Rift and say "This crafting is pointless. I wish it was more like Fallen Earth"
Yes Many people have zero concept of what it means to say a 'deep crafting system' On this forum? A forum about MMORPGs? I think nearly everyone does.
Deep does not always equal fun.
Wurm has a deep, enough, crafting system but it is not fun to me.
To me a deep system needs to be a fun system as well. Like Vanguard's or SWG
Fun is not always deep.
EQ2 is not a deep crafting system but I find it fun.
Neither I am suggesting its a requirement to understand fun.
All I am saying is that for people to talk about sports its kinda a good idea to go to a soccer game if they only sport you have even seen in your life is a football game.
that is all I am desperately trying to say here! why people read far more into what I say then I do is beyond me.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Because that is how you worded it. Read your words out loud and imagine you are the reader not the writer.
Your quote:
"Many people have zero concept at all whatsoever what it means when
someone say 'deep crafting' at least having played those two games said
people would have a clue about the subject of 'crafting'
You infer that experience with deep crafting is the only way a player would have a clue on the subject of 'crafting' That is not true. Your idea of deep crafting and the clue you acquired are going to be different than someone else's. Make sense? Sure it does. Now you know! Yay!
let me say it again using the word 'soccer' with a few small changes
"Many people have zero concept at all whatsoever what it means when someone say 'soccer' at least having seen soccer played games said people would have a clue about the subject of 'soccer' and that helps when talking about sports.
in other words (but not specific) it helps when talking about crafting to know the ACTUAL difference between a light crafting engine and a heavy crafting engine. I have seen people get into debates where they actually thought ALL crafting engines created nothing more than vanity products that you didnt need. how can they talk intelligently about crafting with that limited understanding of the subject?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
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The main thing is crafting item X should have a point. In games like EQ2 when you can basically get the same item by looting it doesnt make much sense. In my favorite crafting games you craft or you die....its that simple
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
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A perfect example of a game where crafting is not a do or die thing but is deep and interesting (far more than EQ2) would be Fallen Earth.
Fallen Earth by the way is free and if you think EQ2 crafting is good and you want to get a baseline of why I suggest that its not then I HIGHLY suggest checking Fallen Earth out.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
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ok well it is what it is.
I havent plaed Vanguards so I cant speak to that but I found Eq2 crafting to be nearly unbearably boring.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I had a crafting system in a Neverwinter Nights world I made 100 years ago. It was very popular. The crafting itself was almost a little minigame were yo uhad to prepare components and then work on them on another crafting device. Felt like you were actually doing something not just clicking a progress bar. Every step of the way your skill was checked and it was a sliding scale of success from catastrophe to legendary success. Depending on what part of the item you were working on the sugreat success could mean a huge bonus to a certain aspect of that item, a failure could mean a small negative somewhere or even destroy the process. Getting legendary successes was a rare thing and getting it on several different steps was pretty much impossible but because of the way the system worked you could have a sword that had some great stats here but a bad one there or a weirdness over there and it made for some great items.
I also think that crafting should be a big part of the game, as in, you can be a sword maker and you make normal swords that are sold to the NPC market or even on random quests "Barracks needs 100 longswords, assasins guild wants 10 daggers of specific quality or feature". This would make crafters not just shooting for super uber items, although they would for players. They would generally be making different kinds of weapons and shooting for different kinds of qualities or features for quests. Some of those items or features might require certain kinds of components or travel which Is where the crafters adventure comes from
"The Crafters Adventure" is now Copyrighted by me as a game I will make!
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
I recall the server had housing as well.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
These games have so much potential to do far far more than the developers have been doing because they've come into this whole stagnation of gaming that has happened. Gone are the days where innovative ideas that will carve out a niche are on the table and now it is just about how to maximize profitibility by bringing in the largest player base possible and the larger problem at hand is that they look at World Of Warcraft a highly casualized (and getting more so with each expansion) MMORPG and figure this is somehow natural growth or a group of players that are actually MMORPG players to begin with.
Let me get something out of the way here that I feel I have to put out there frequently enough as it seems to fall on deaf ears all to often - World Of Warcraft's player base is in large part never ever ever going to be an MMORPG player base. These are not players that will enjoy anything outside of World Of Warcraft in large part and I'd put about maybe 20% of WoW's total player base would actually move around and find a place to settle down in other MMORPGs.
We no longer have expansive worlds, expansive journeys, any real interdependence for crafting, no real world were crafting actually matters long term and we are at this moment where we casualize the hell out of these games to make getting to "end game" be the key factor and that's "where the game starts" even though that is basically a literal treadmill of doing the same content over and over to get set up gear wise to do the next set of content over and over and that's even assuming there is enough content added that you aren't just waiting for the next expansion to come along for more content at all.
It's why i have more interest in the things starting to churn around in the independent studios MMORPG wise than I will likely ever be in anything made by a large studio backed by a AAA publisher...
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
which is fine, its more of a testimate that many people just dont like other gamers more than anything else.
I dont like being put in situations where people are struggling for power, I get enough of that crap from work
who was it that said 'A dinner party is not a social event, its warfare'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
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Just look at Chris Roberts, IceFrog, Markus Persson... all people who just one day said "I can do this and I can do it better."
In fact many industries are full of people who did this. Such as one of the worlds highest grossing directors of all time, James Cameron who was a Canadian truck driver that one day said "I can make movies and I can make them better." So he drove to California and literally forced his way into the industry.
Under your simple logic, he should have just stayed a truck driver, cause what the fuck does James Cameron know about making movies.
As an employee you likely have no say at all.
As to the type of crafting i would design.Far too big and in depth to explain it and would take a lot of coding/menus to pull it off.
Basically i would aim to eliminate Wiki and create random equations,results.There is no real such thing as random,it still has to have inputs and integers and a set data to draw from but allowing that data to change from player to player is where i would aim.
example just because you might do a series of quests to uncover a secret recipe that might be found or some npc gives you ,might not be the same route another player has to go to get that same recipe and even then the result would be slightly different based on your actions and favor with the npc.
As to how you craft,i am fine with EQ2 mini game but doing it better,bigger bolder and combining it with similar ideas from FFXI's newer crafting system would be cool.I would like to see around 5-6 action reaction choices to keep on on it's toes,then choices to push the limits to get varied results instead of just one HQ result.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Many people have zero concept at all whatsoever what it means when someone say 'deep crafting' at least having played those two games said people would have a clue about the subject of 'crafting'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
All I am saying is that for people to talk about sports its kinda a good idea to go to a soccer game if they only sport you have even seen in your life is a football game.
that is all I am desperately trying to say here! why people read far more into what I say then I do is beyond me.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
"Many people have zero concept at all whatsoever what it means when someone say 'soccer' at least having seen soccer played games said people would have a clue about the subject of 'soccer' and that helps when talking about sports.
in other words (but not specific) it helps when talking about crafting to know the ACTUAL difference between a light crafting engine and a heavy crafting engine. I have seen people get into debates where they actually thought ALL crafting engines created nothing more than vanity products that you didnt need. how can they talk intelligently about crafting with that limited understanding of the subject?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me