The idea that $15 per month was ok in 2000 and is ok 16 years later is the real problem.
Games have ballooned in production costs and yet everyone expects a better game for the same price?
Except there are games in existence with 13+ years of content & development and they're still only charging $15 a month. Start building a AAA MMO today and you're probably five years from launch which then puts you 18 years in the hole against the content in WoW and EVE.
I sure as shit wouldn't pay $20 a month for a new game with about a months worth of content.
That's kind of the Themepark problem. You have finite hard content in an on going genre.
AAA MMORPG based on content sales alone? (meaning no cash shop / microtransactions at all)
And you want that for 15$ per month?
/facepalm
Try 100$ per start box + 80$ expansions + 30-40$ / month in today's money. More in future as time pass.
Until you will have double digits millions of people ready to accept that kind of prices for MMRPG long-term, then it is stupid to even theoreticize.
Sorry AAA MMORPG cannot be made for poor folks. Harsh truth here. Either you're second class citizen in microtransaction game or you're normal citizen in game that cost actual bucks and not cost of a single delivery pizza in USA.
You want quality entertainment - it has to cost money, not less than 2h of work on minimum wage. Worsening economical situation for majoritity of folks in current economy does not change this fact.
On top of that they still want to play MMORPGs which are the most time consuming type of game for some reason and will pay to have these games changed for them even though they have more good single player/coop games then they likely could ever handle playing with their busy schedule.
That is because devs want their business, and make MMORPGs less time consuming. Plus, busy people are probably more well off. If one is not busy in his/her career, he/she probably is not very good.
Thank God Kopo never played Warhammer Fantasy or 40k. $30 a month is probably the least I've ever spent on a hobby in years.
I easily spent 100-200 a month when I played GW games. Buy a new army from scratch in the early 2000's? Go ahead and subtract $600 from your account. Buy a new army today after they've spent 16 years raising prices and lowering model count per box? Pfffft, $1200-$1500 for a 2k point army.
Before that I was huge into CCG's and I spent untold thousands on them, well into the 100's per month.
I spent a good 50-100 a month on RPG sourcebooks when I played Shadowrun, World of Darkness, GURPS and Forgotten Realms regularly.
Now that I've started modding my Z34... I can't even believe how much performance car parts cost. I blew $1200 last month on two parts.
Gaming and MMO's have been the dirt cheapest hobby I've ever had.
Read up on what Dante wrote about "conspicuous wasters", it's how you are coming across here.
If you've read what Dante wrote about "conspicuous wasters" then you'd realize that you've misappropriated the term entirely. My undergraduate degree is in English Literature, and I've read every jot and tittle of Dante to be exact.
What Dante was referencing was the purchase of luxury goods for no other purpose whatsoever than to show them off to people and prove your ostentatious lifestyle.
I've used everything I've ever bought that I listed above. The point I was making is that gaming is cheap hobby. You're showing your colors here, though, by bringing it up at all.
This is why paying for what caters to me is something I always have embraced. It has been always producers job to make their product appealing to the audience out there, to create and capture a market. If they are failing to do that then that's no one else fault but their own.
If they believe that targeting the 5-10% worth more than the rest 90% then by all means they have the right to, after all it's their $ they are investing. I just know for a fact over the last 62 months if I was paying $15 monthly (not counting expansions) that would be almost $1,000 someone could receive from me.
I dunno how much effort and $ you need to invest in your product to receive $1,000 from a single individual over 5 years, but in my opinion with the tools and technology we have available I know you can deliver a LOT better than what's been out there.
100,000 subs paying $15 monthly (not counting expansions) would result in almost 100 mil generated over 5 years. If you can't get 100,000 subs willing to pay $15 monthly for your 100 mil investment then you shouldn't be making games, period.
With the product you'll end up after 5 years of development and 100 mil investment I bet it will be far more superior that will compete with whatever comes after those 5 years, which would only allow you to rip the benefits of success.
whats wrong with being a "2nd class citizen" or a Peasant? nothing is FREE nor nothing is fair in this world, not even in our "Virtual World" I Have a job and Priorities, but at the same time I love gaming!
a person who only plays games 24/7 or does streaming as their main job doesnt mean you deserve a guaranteed "High Class" Status in any game you play..
To Even things out with people like us who's got real lives, we spend our hard earned $$$ to catch up to the no lifers or better yet get ahead! theres nothing wrong with that!
Any game I play me and my group always stand out! Thats why people in game are separated by 4 groups, The Plebs who try hard and are PvE heroes, The subpar PvPers that are only good at one thing but broke since they dont farm pve, The Gold Farmers who's only purpose is to sell gold to the elite, and Us the Elite PvPers who excel at both PvP and Pve.
It's simple economics. Why charge $10 and get 10,000 customers when you can charge $100 and get 1,500? 15 years ago, the people with money were not gamers. This is starting to shift.
@Bluehound17 Fact is you want to win in everything both in real life and in the MMO. Well, that doesn't work because you ask "what's wrong with being a "2nd class citizen" or a peasant"? Yea, I can ask you the same, what's wrong with being a 2nd class citizen in the MMO or a peasant if that's what you deserve to be for the effort and dedication you put as well as the skills you display.
Like you said, you have a job and priorities and so does everyone else. You can't expect to be as good or excel at the things that for you have less priority over someone else.
On top of that they still want to play MMORPGs which are the most time consuming type of game for some reason and will pay to have these games changed for them even though they have more good single player/coop games then they likely could ever handle playing with their busy schedule.
That is because devs want their business, and make MMORPGs less time consuming. Plus, busy people are probably more well off. If one is not busy in his/her career, he/she probably is not very good.
Or they don't want to spend their life constantly busy as I pointed out. That doesn't mean they don't have money to spend on games. A lot of people who work less also spend a lot less. Many people who work a lot spend quite a lot of money on vacations, travel, houses, cars, and other things. Either way there is plenty of entertainment out there for those with a small amount of time. MMO should always have been a niche market IMO. It's for those who have a lot of time to waste. I generally don't play MMOs even though I have a lot of free time. I just don't feel like wasting the energy on a fairly mindless grind through quests and dungeons for exp and loot.
My feeling about people buying their way to better capability in an MMO is pretty much the same way I feel about somebody buying more pieces to put on the board for his chess game during a match. As to keeping up with the other peoples accomplishments, first, it's not a race, and second, you have to earn them, not buy them, that's what makes them worthwhile.
Friends: For many of you on these forums, they are people you know in the other world - sometimes known as the "real" world - with whom you interact and form relationships. I know, it's a foreign idea for many MMO gamers. If you're not familiar with the concept, ask someone who's left the house in the past five years. They'll fill you in.
pretty much all money over about 20,000 on a car is pure vanity and nothing more.
Some cars are vanity items? Shocking!
You should get out more. There are other vanity items like clothing, jewelry, houses, antiques, cosmetics...etc.
Oh but you're probably too hipster for all of that. Do you sport one of those non-ironic beards to go along with your independent music, vintage clothes, and artisanal coffee?
pretty much all money over about 20,000 on a car is pure vanity and nothing more.
Some cars are vanity items? Shocking!
You should get out more. There are other vanity items like clothing, jewelry, houses, antiques, cosmetics...etc.
Oh but you're probably too hipster for all of that. Do you sport one of those non-ironic beards to go along with your independent music, vintage clothes, and artisanal coffee?
no I just buy vanity virtual items for a F tons less than $20,000 of vanity dollars...
see?
most likely not
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
whats wrong with being a "2nd class citizen" or a Peasant? nothing is FREE nor nothing is fair in this world, not even in our "Virtual World" I Have a job and Priorities, but at the same time I love gaming!
a person who only plays games 24/7 or does streaming as their main job doesnt mean you deserve a guaranteed "High Class" Status in any game you play..
To Even things out with people like us who's got real lives, we spend our hard earned $$$ to catch up to the no lifers or better yet get ahead! theres nothing wrong with that!
Any game I play me and my group always stand out! Thats why people in game are separated by 4 groups, The Plebs who try hard and are PvE heroes, The subpar PvPers that are only good at one thing but broke since they dont farm pve, The Gold Farmers who's only purpose is to sell gold to the elite, and Us the Elite PvPers who excel at both PvP and Pve.
MMO should always have been a niche market IMO. It's for those who have a lot of time to waste. I generally don't play MMOs even though I have a lot of free time. I just don't feel like wasting the energy on a fairly mindless grind through quests and dungeons for exp and loot.
MMOs "should" not be anything. They are simply what devs make them out to be. Now it is for those who have a little time to waste, and a lot of money to spend (whales). You may disagree .. but those are not your games, and the devs can do whatever they want, and cater to whoever they pleaes.
no I just buy vanity virtual items for a F tons less than $20,000 of vanity dollars...
see?
most likely not
vanity...virtual...items...
exactly...spending an extra $20,000 on a car for no reason other to have hopes of other people think you are worthy when you think you are not vs
$1000 on buying a cool virtual space ship
yeah...vanity...
lol
have fun at work, working for all those 'please accept me I have self worth items'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
no I just buy vanity virtual items for a F tons less than $20,000 of vanity dollars...
see?
most likely not
vanity...virtual...items...
exactly...spending an extra $20,000 on a car for no reason other to have hopes of other people think you are worthy when you think you are not vs
$1000 on buying a cool virtual space ship
yeah...vanity...
lol
have fun at work, working for all those 'please accept me because I am lonely' dollars
I spend an extra $20K on a car so I can go off-road, which I something I enjoy doing, genius. Try that in a $20K tin-can and watch it turn to dust.
As for work, most people go to to work so they can buy things that allow them to have/do things that give them pleasure. You sound like one of those whiny dudes that will never make enough money to buy proper shoelaces, let alone anything better. Your problem, not anyone else's. QQ some more.
Hey, you can always start an occupy movement. Isn't that what the self-imposed "have nots" do when they're feeling left out of the party? Here's a snapshot of your first gathering:
I play and I'm not rich and I don't spend more than 30 a month. Pretty much invalidates the premise of the thread.
There is enough choice on this buffet for everyone. Wanna come in on a regular day and pay 7.99.. You've got it. Got a bit more cash and wanna come in on seafood Sunday and pay 10.99... you got it. Got money to throw around, order off the menu and get what you want... you got it.
Oooohhh, what's on the buffet? I'll take a 2x f2p, a b2p, and a sub.
Ooohhh, I'll take a side of rpg, a bit of moba. Let me splash a bit of fantasy sauce on the rpg, and some scifi sauce on the moba.
Hmmm, they have anything sweet? Oooh, I'll grab some WoT and ...wow... I'm stuffed.
Still nothing.... play minesweeper. Free.
you forgot the hackers (MSG) is sprinkled in everything...
Not sure how old you are, but $15 a month is nothing and you don't have to be rich to afford that. People pay more for their monthly cell phone, cable TV, or internet. And all those people are not rich.
I remember living in college living off of 6,000 a year income from a part time job. paying $15.00 a month for a Wow subscription was the best value for entertainment buck I ever saw
I spend an extra $20K on a car so I can go off-road, which I something I enjoy doing, genius. Try that in a $20K tin-can and watch it turn to dust.
As for work, most people go to to work so they can buy things that allow them to have/do things that give them pleasure. You sound like one of those whiny dudes that will never make enough money to buy proper shoelaces, let alone anything better. Your problem, not anyone else's. QQ some more.
my $20k truck can pull a some of the largest RV trailers around and go off road.
oh and dont confuse 'evil corporation' with 'being an idoit and buying something you dont remotely need and dosent improve your life outside of your self perception and costs you $20,000 to change that self perception which is only in your imagination. they are two entirely different subjects.
oh and for all those hard core off roading adventures you do....have you considered...renting?
ADDED: I dont mind so much people blowing money on vanity items to improve their impression of self worth but what gets me is those same people who spend 10s of thousands of dollars on what is nothing more than in their head take issue with people spending a few thousands on games. That just cracks me up
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I remember living in college living off of 6,000 a year income from a part time job. paying $15.00 a month for a Wow subscription was the best value for entertainment buck I ever saw
and now you can get lots of MMOs for free .. for a while.
$15 a month only sounds like a good value if the competition charges the same.
Comments
That's kind of the Themepark problem. You have finite hard content in an on going genre.
And you want that for 15$ per month?
/facepalm
Try 100$ per start box + 80$ expansions + 30-40$ / month in today's money. More in future as time pass.
Until you will have double digits millions of people ready to accept that kind of prices for MMRPG long-term, then it is stupid to even theoreticize.
Sorry AAA MMORPG cannot be made for poor folks. Harsh truth here. Either you're second class citizen in microtransaction game or you're normal citizen in game that cost actual bucks and not cost of a single delivery pizza in USA.
You want quality entertainment - it has to cost money, not less than 2h of work on minimum wage. Worsening economical situation for majoritity of folks in current economy does not change this fact.
That is because devs want their business, and make MMORPGs less time consuming. Plus, busy people are probably more well off. If one is not busy in his/her career, he/she probably is not very good.
What Dante was referencing was the purchase of luxury goods for no other purpose whatsoever than to show them off to people and prove your ostentatious lifestyle.
I've used everything I've ever bought that I listed above. The point I was making is that gaming is cheap hobby. You're showing your colors here, though, by bringing it up at all.
If they believe that targeting the 5-10% worth more than the rest 90% then by all means they have the right to, after all it's their $ they are investing. I just know for a fact over the last 62 months if I was paying $15 monthly (not counting expansions) that would be almost $1,000 someone could receive from me.
I dunno how much effort and $ you need to invest in your product to receive $1,000 from a single individual over 5 years, but in my opinion with the tools and technology we have available I know you can deliver a LOT better than what's been out there.
100,000 subs paying $15 monthly (not counting expansions) would result in almost 100 mil generated over 5 years. If you can't get 100,000 subs willing to pay $15 monthly for your 100 mil investment then you shouldn't be making games, period.
With the product you'll end up after 5 years of development and 100 mil investment I bet it will be far more superior that will compete with whatever comes after those 5 years, which would only allow you to rip the benefits of success.
a person who only plays games 24/7 or does streaming as their main job doesnt mean you deserve a guaranteed "High Class" Status in any game you play..
To Even things out with people like us who's got real lives, we spend our hard earned $$$ to catch up to the no lifers or better yet get ahead! theres nothing wrong with that!
Any game I play me and my group always stand out! Thats why people in game are separated by 4 groups, The Plebs who try hard and are PvE heroes, The subpar PvPers that are only good at one thing but broke since they dont farm pve, The Gold Farmers who's only purpose is to sell gold to the elite, and Us the Elite PvPers who excel at both PvP and Pve.
Like you said, you have a job and priorities and so does everyone else. You can't expect to be as good or excel at the things that for you have less priority over someone else.
As to keeping up with the other peoples accomplishments, first, it's not a race, and second, you have to earn them, not buy them, that's what makes them worthwhile.
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
Friends: For many of you on these forums, they are people you know in the other world - sometimes known as the "real" world - with whom you interact and form relationships. I know, it's a foreign idea for many MMO gamers. If you're not familiar with the concept, ask someone who's left the house in the past five years. They'll fill you in.
~~ postlarval ~~
A used 1987 Yugo is a better investment than a video game pledge, especially SotA.
Oops...I just dissed your ride. My apologies.
~~ postlarval ~~
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
You should get out more. There are other vanity items like clothing, jewelry, houses, antiques, cosmetics...etc.
Oh but you're probably too hipster for all of that. Do you sport one of those non-ironic beards to go along with your independent music, vintage clothes, and artisanal coffee?
~~ postlarval ~~
see?
most likely not
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
~~ postlarval ~~
vs
$1000 on buying a cool virtual space ship
yeah...vanity...
lol have fun at work, working for all those 'please accept me I have self worth items'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
As for work, most people go to to work so they can buy things that allow them to have/do things that give them pleasure. You sound like one of those whiny dudes that will never make enough money to buy proper shoelaces, let alone anything better. Your problem, not anyone else's. QQ some more.
Hey, you can always start an occupy movement. Isn't that what the self-imposed "have nots" do when they're feeling left out of the party? Here's a snapshot of your first gathering:
~~ postlarval ~~
you forgot the hackers (MSG) is sprinkled in everything...
People pay more for their monthly cell phone, cable TV, or internet.
And all those people are not rich.
I remember living in college living off of 6,000 a year income from a part time job. paying $15.00 a month for a Wow subscription was the best value for entertainment buck I ever saw
oh and dont confuse 'evil corporation' with 'being an idoit and buying something you dont remotely need and dosent improve your life outside of your self perception and costs you $20,000 to change that self perception which is only in your imagination. they are two entirely different subjects.
oh and for all those hard core off roading adventures you do....have you considered...renting?
ADDED: I dont mind so much people blowing money on vanity items to improve their impression of self worth but what gets me is those same people who spend 10s of thousands of dollars on what is nothing more than in their head take issue with people spending a few thousands on games. That just cracks me up
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
$15 a month only sounds like a good value if the competition charges the same.