No they can't trust their experience but their experience is biased. Personal experience is the least objective source of information.
Yes they do need to experiment but they need other proof besides their own experience of the event. They need the data.
To find the truth you need other data.
Your statement shows how little you actually know about this.
Do your own research - thousands of studies and articles on how bad eye witness testimony is - that is their experiences were wrong. Read up on perception bias, cognitive bias and question why it is you believe what you do.
It is like when people say they like a feature in a specific game. That doesn't tell us what they liked about it. Assuming all people who liked that feature liked it for the same reason is not accurate. The same goes with the opinions of that other person.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
So after a long break I tried to look back into mmorpgs again, owning guild wars 2 I decided to look into it and yep same problems as before, many things are still not even being looked into and the same knee jerk force into playstyles people dont want to play.
I finally gave into neverwinter and gave it a try and loved it but people still complain about p2w at endgame and pvp and its really to bad because I really liked the combat and customization, not to mention its fantasy which I enjoy allot.
I tried blade and soul and it was a cool game but I couldnt get past that story and voice acting.
Ive looked into others but really they are buy to play and im not going to spend my money without a free trial im talking about black desert and eso right now.
I wouldnt mind giving wow another go if I could get into the combat but I cannot, if that was the case id just go back to eq1, hek I would of went back long ago, I couldnt even get back into eq2, single player rpgs have ruined mmorpgs for me lol.
And i already knew everything about the others and looked at them again and yep still in horrible states. So objectively this seems to be the case, and people need to learn to agree on this.
I would have to disagree with you on the horrible state statement. I find that BDO has filled a niche for me that has been missing for many years. Little has come out that fit my open ended playstyle like BDO does. I can log in for an hour and do just about anything I can think of and feel like I made some type of progress and I do not feel like everything was just handed to me in the process.
I actually scored a key and thinking of trying it myself, but I usually dont like asian styled worlds/games.
I wouldn't really call black desert by any measure asian styled. The characters don't come off as "asian", nor does any of the building style. They did a good job of a sorta european / medival / slavic approach to the design. They have also done a fantastic job of setting it apart from most mmorpgs in general be they western or eastern.
I can agree with a few of the posts but I think and yes i could be wrong, am old yes it happens. But if you look back I believe the games started going down hill not because of WoW but the F2P gender. But now I think it is just the start of it with the mobile games hitting and a possible even more dumb down to our favorite games.
But then VR could also turn the industry around. In my opinion get rid of the F2P and B2P games that are also turning games into advertisements and trying to get as much as they can from players.
I'm not against them making money but what the hell give us good games and stop trying to make the whole game about some lame in game store (talking to you Zenimax).
The genre wasn't going downhill when F2P existed long before WoW came out. There weren't many mmorpgs about at the time that went f2p other than runescape and things like furcadia etc...
Now to break this down into why people like myself start saying the Genre went downhill with World Of Warcraft. What WoW did was take elements from a bunch of unique games and combine them then polished them in a turd like fashion often messing up implementations of this or that. They adopted the flagging system from Star Wars Galaxies and didn't implement it in a proper method which ended up requiring them to open up different rule set servers as an example here.
They did implement a lot of things in vanilla really well from other games and then subsequently in the name of mass appeal started removing things left and right. You use to have to use your weapon over and over to get better at using it so you needed skill with the weapon + a proper level to actually use a weapon. You also had pvp battleground stuff that had MASSIVE wars that could last for days or a week or so which again removed for mass appeal, class talent tree etc etc etc. WoW has continually with each and every expansion released tried to further dumb down their game in the name of mass appeal and actually seem to be driving more and more of their subscriber base away from the game.
MMORPGs started adopting more and more of Blizzard's approach with WoW and we ended up with a bunch of "same" feeling mmorpgs both in the pay to play market and the free to play market (though it came with the P2P market being a problem before the f2p, f2p just let these games live a lot longer). No one forced blizzard to continually over simplify their game and no one forced developers to basically follow suit cuz they all wanted to make bank, but blizzard and WoW caused the huge down turn in how these games felt.
The stuff that is still pushing for niche audiences and realizing that it has to be unique is starting to come back and while they may not get WoW's numbers they can survive for a long time if they hit that niche and attract people well enough.
The stuff that is still pushing for niche audiences and realizing that it has to be unique is starting to come back and while they may not get WoW's numbers they can survive for a long time if they hit that niche and attract people well enough.
What indie niche games are actually unique? Are most of those try to copy really old ideas from EQ or DAoC?
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
And i already knew everything about the others and looked at them again and yep still in horrible states. So objectively this seems to be the case, and people need to learn to agree on this.
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
P2P is dead because it is not nearly as profitable for companies and is too high risk these days. Stop trying to push the agenda that those that enjoy F2P games and can look past some stuff as being somehow "bad". If anything the people playing have become overly jaded and can't look past their own shit with too many games. You sound like a burnout that just wants the same shit churned out over and over or something.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
The stuff that is still pushing for niche audiences and realizing that it has to be unique is starting to come back and while they may not get WoW's numbers they can survive for a long time if they hit that niche and attract people well enough.
What indie niche games are actually unique? Are most of those try to copy really old ideas from EQ or DAoC?
Some are copies from EQ and DAoC, but those older ideas are refreshing and unique to see in modern mmorpgs... Many of the games are trying to bring back some of the older system and many of the things that made those older games feel better. Chronicles of Elyria still seems like the most interesting game that we will of seen for 12+ years even when speaking of older mmorpgs outside of maybe SWG pre CU/NGE...
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
P2P is dead because it is not nearly as profitable for companies and is too high risk these days. Stop trying to push the agenda that those that enjoy F2P games and can look past some stuff as being somehow "bad". If anything the people playing have become overly jaded and can't look past their own shit with too many games. You sound like a burnout that just wants the same shit churned out over and over or something.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
P2P is dead because it is not nearly as profitable for companies and is too high risk these days. Stop trying to push the agenda that those that enjoy F2P games and can look past some stuff as being somehow "bad". If anything the people playing have become overly jaded and can't look past their own shit with too many games. You sound like a burnout that just wants the same shit churned out over and over or something.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
That wasn't the audience, that was the economy. Once the economy returns, so will the paying customers. And so will P2P. An indie developer will come along and say to hell with F2P, if you want to play my game then start paying. And those who want good games and no worlds full of freeloaders will pay. The largest remaining audience (that still has money in this economy) still prefers P2P.
F2P only exists because the economy is the kind of sewage that F2P thrives in.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Too bad neither f2p nor p2p were any indicators of quality.
Personally I don't think most people care one way or another whether it's free to play or pay to play and don't really have a preference for one over the other.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Too bad neither f2p nor p2p were any indicators of quality.
Personally I don't think most people care one way or another whether it's free to play or pay to play and don't really have a preference for one over the other.
Some people may not care, I definitely do, never played a MMORPG designed as F2P from the start as quality title, don't believe its even possible to create one.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So theoretically if a game did come along designed as free to play that did turn out to be a good game, you wouldn't play it?
Simply because you don't have to pay for it?
Alternatively if Eve switched their model tomorrow to free to play, but left everything else the same, you would no longer play it because now you don't have to pay?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
So theoretically if a game did come along designed as free to play that did turn out to be a good game, you wouldn't play it?
Simply because you don't have to pay for it?
Alternatively if Eve switched their model tomorrow to free to play, but left everything else the same, you would no longer play it because now you don't have to pay?
If it just became free, sure I might play it.
But lets be honest, when a game becomes free to play there is a whole lot of baggage that comes with it. Cash shops, the unwashed masses, P2W scenarios...there is a lot more to F2P then just not paying a sub.
Personally, I prefer sub based because it allows the game to still be financially viable without having to resort to changes that I personally feel make the point of playing an MMORPG worthless. Essentially when I play an MMORPG I don't want any meta with my RPG chips.
So theoretically if a game did come along designed as free to play that did turn out to be a good game, you wouldn't play it?
Simply because you don't have to pay for it?
Alternatively if Eve switched their model tomorrow to free to play, but left everything else the same, you would no longer play it because now you don't have to pay?
That depends if its actually pay to win or not, this is why I much prefer buy to play with cosmetics over f2p.
So theoretically if a game did come along designed as free to play that did turn out to be a good game, you wouldn't play it?
Simply because you don't have to pay for it?
Alternatively if Eve switched their model tomorrow to free to play, but left everything else the same, you would no longer play it because now you don't have to pay?
If it just became free, sure I might play it.
But lets be honest, when a game becomes free to play there is a whole lot of baggage that comes with it. Cash shops, the unwashed masses, P2W scenarios...there is a lot more to F2P then just not paying a sub.
Personally, I prefer sub based because it allows the game to still be financially viable without having to resort to changes that I personally feel make the point of playing an MMORPG worthless. Essentially when I play an MMORPG I don't want any meta with my RPG chips.
The problem is people make way to big of a deal now if its sub based, but everytime someone has done that lately they do not release a decent free trial to show people it is really worth it, the reason eq2 did so well for so long as a sub because it had allot to offer yes expansions where annoying just like the first eq releasing so many expansions to pay for but at the same time there was always somehing to do always new abilities to gain even after level cap because of the alternate advancement system, it was a really deep game.
Now im not saying something like wow with less depth wouldnt be worth it either some people dont mind spending 15 a month only playing a certain amount of hours each month.
I think final fantasy has a good 2 week free trial, and apparently it has allot of people hooked and paying a sub with no problem.
You can say that about any game with a cs though. Some call potions p2w, some call cosmetics p2w because they feel collections are part of the game.
If it has a cs it has the potential for p2w, and CS are allready in p2p games.
I would be all for p2p over f2p if it didn't have the jerks or the p2w but they do (depending on how you define it I guess)
Your to hung up on definition, what I mean is paying for any advantage over others in the game, and as far as collection goes you dont get anything for collections in most mmorpgs so its really pay for fluff.
I'm just stating what others have stated here. Many people view fluff as part of the game.
However they still have the cash shop which means they still have the same problem as all games with cash shops - potential for abuse (whether it's there or not now is a matter of your own definition)
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I'm just stating what others have stated here. Many people view fluff as part of the game.
However they still have the cash shop which means they still have the same problem as all games with cash shops - potential for abuse (whether it's there or not now is a matter of your own definition)
Right but I guess the point here is they got to make money somehow and cosmetics seems to be the way to go with buy to play and expansions or a sub. I completely disagree with people expecting a completely free mmorpg thats actually good thats silly, one thing ill never understand is how people can justify spending 60 dollars a single player rpg that might last 30 hours or so while an mmorpgs like guild wars 2 or eso will last for longer and complain its buy to play.
So theoretically if a game did come along designed as free to play that did turn out to be a good game, you wouldn't play it?
Simply because you don't have to pay for it?
Alternatively if Eve switched their model tomorrow to free to play, but left everything else the same, you would no longer play it because now you don't have to pay?
I believe a free to play from the start MMORPG can't be good, the cash invades the overall design too significantly for me to enjoy it.
I might still play EVE if the new monetization model didn't overwhelm the gameplay.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
Sign of someone who can no longer defend their position.
You lose.
It is like when people say they like a feature in a specific game. That doesn't tell us what they liked about it. Assuming all people who liked that feature liked it for the same reason is not accurate. The same goes with the opinions of that other person.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The genre wasn't going downhill when F2P existed long before WoW came out. There weren't many mmorpgs about at the time that went f2p other than runescape and things like furcadia etc...
Now to break this down into why people like myself start saying the Genre went downhill with World Of Warcraft. What WoW did was take elements from a bunch of unique games and combine them then polished them in a turd like fashion often messing up implementations of this or that. They adopted the flagging system from Star Wars Galaxies and didn't implement it in a proper method which ended up requiring them to open up different rule set servers as an example here.
They did implement a lot of things in vanilla really well from other games and then subsequently in the name of mass appeal started removing things left and right. You use to have to use your weapon over and over to get better at using it so you needed skill with the weapon + a proper level to actually use a weapon. You also had pvp battleground stuff that had MASSIVE wars that could last for days or a week or so which again removed for mass appeal, class talent tree etc etc etc. WoW has continually with each and every expansion released tried to further dumb down their game in the name of mass appeal and actually seem to be driving more and more of their subscriber base away from the game.
MMORPGs started adopting more and more of Blizzard's approach with WoW and we ended up with a bunch of "same" feeling mmorpgs both in the pay to play market and the free to play market (though it came with the P2P market being a problem before the f2p, f2p just let these games live a lot longer). No one forced blizzard to continually over simplify their game and no one forced developers to basically follow suit cuz they all wanted to make bank, but blizzard and WoW caused the huge down turn in how these games felt.
The stuff that is still pushing for niche audiences and realizing that it has to be unique is starting to come back and while they may not get WoW's numbers they can survive for a long time if they hit that niche and attract people well enough.
What indie niche games are actually unique? Are most of those try to copy really old ideas from EQ or DAoC?
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
Some are copies from EQ and DAoC, but those older ideas are refreshing and unique to see in modern mmorpgs... Many of the games are trying to bring back some of the older system and many of the things that made those older games feel better. Chronicles of Elyria still seems like the most interesting game that we will of seen for 12+ years even when speaking of older mmorpgs outside of maybe SWG pre CU/NGE...
Whether they are "refreshing" is just a matter of preference. I think they are just old. I would rather play something new .. like Overwatch.
F2P only exists because the economy is the kind of sewage that F2P thrives in.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Personally I don't think most people care one way or another whether it's free to play or pay to play and don't really have a preference for one over the other.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Simply because you don't have to pay for it?
Alternatively if Eve switched their model tomorrow to free to play, but left everything else the same, you would no longer play it because now you don't have to pay?
But lets be honest, when a game becomes free to play there is a whole lot of baggage that comes with it. Cash shops, the unwashed masses, P2W scenarios...there is a lot more to F2P then just not paying a sub.
Personally, I prefer sub based because it allows the game to still be financially viable without having to resort to changes that I personally feel make the point of playing an MMORPG worthless. Essentially when I play an MMORPG I don't want any meta with my RPG chips.
And paying has never really been a barrier to jerks, again WoW. So I can't see the difference.
If it has a cs it has the potential for p2w, and CS are allready in p2p games.
I would be all for p2p over f2p if it didn't have the jerks or the p2w but they do (depending on how you define it I guess)
Now im not saying something like wow with less depth wouldnt be worth it either some people dont mind spending 15 a month only playing a certain amount of hours each month.
I think final fantasy has a good 2 week free trial, and apparently it has allot of people hooked and paying a sub with no problem.
However they still have the cash shop which means they still have the same problem as all games with cash shops - potential for abuse (whether it's there or not now is a matter of your own definition)
I might still play EVE if the new monetization model didn't overwhelm the gameplay.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon