Technically its legal. If you bought a multiplayer game and the company that holds its rights no longer offers service for that game, you are legally allowed to use an emulator or the server engine to play it on a local network.
Not quite. I've been developing Tabula Rasa server emulator and me and my team did receive a takedown notice. Even when we renamed the project. So we dumped the project.
I don't think they had legal ground but none of us wanted to deal with courts. Those IP cases are expensive AF
I don't know how L2Java survived all this time. Guess they consulted a lawyer. I'm sure there have been takedown notices, since for a time Lineage 2 was the biggest IP of NCSoft. Funny, most people I know that have played L2 in the past have done so in a private server
In our takedown they were threatning us not only with IP but that according to some laws cracking their netcode was a crime. Probably none of that holds weight in court but as I said, that shit is too expensive to defend for an emulator I didn't know would get finished even or that it would be played at all. I mean ... it's tabula rasa, not WoW or any other major MMO.
SWG emulators are completely legal for a few reasons:
1) 100% of the code is written by the emulator developers, so they haven't stolen anything. 2) SWG is shut down, so they aren't stealing customers from anywhere 3) Its a not-for-profit project, they only ask for donations to pay for the servers.
On the other hand, SWGemu actually states that by connecting to the emulator, it is we (the players) who are breaking the terms of the SWG EULA.
It's a fine line they walk though. If they ever started making money, they'd be shut down. If they got too many players, they'd probably attract attention and possibly a lawsuit / shutdown order, which I guess they'd comply with rather than have to hire a lawyer.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I briefly thought and commented about this in a thread about Nostrlaius. I think this might make for an interesting discussion and debate of its own.
Look at Lucas Arts and Disney with the Star Wars IP
EA has running a little Star Wars MMORPG called SWTOR
Why doesn't Disney or Lucas Arts before them not bring the hammer down on SWG emu's?
Just maybe these guys don't mind their fans being able to enjoy something from earlier days. Maybe its a company showing a little goodwill to a few thousand fans who have probably spent a lot of money supporting the IP
So why don't they bring the hammer down?
Aren't they worried about a few thousand fans getting a little fun out of the IP for Free?
They have both made billions and billions off Star Wars
Aren't they worried about losing some dough?
Are these people now playing Star Wars galaxies on EMU's stealing from Disney? They do own the IP
Shouldn't Disney be protecting their Stockholders?
Are the players playing SWG thieves?
Discuss
Who knows why they don't step in? It would be more pertinent to discuss the former ownership/partnership though, as the game is no longer in operation, it's also not SWTOR competing with itself. It's a different scenario if we look at it from a current perspective. It's also as someone else said a couple thousand vs 100,000+ a totally different level of exposure.
There's the point it's a different company/game altogether to consider as well. Maybe you're right and SOE as well as Disney/LA, are more "giving" in this regard. I don't think that makes Blizzard some how the "bad guy" though.
As for stealing and thievery. Technically yes. And we're all guilty of it by logging in, if we have. Including myself.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Perhaps, the game people at EA, Lucas Arts, Disney are gamers themselves. Perhaps, they let the server exists because they are gamers. Knowing that SWG was once a great title. Also knowing that the majority of people that played SWG when it was around got seriously screwed. Also knowing that(Insider info)Smedley sold out SWG to EA.
I believe that many of the people that do know about this EMU that work for a gaming developer let it exist out of pure heart! As a gamer of course!
2) SWG is shut down, so they aren't stealing customers from anywhere
This is the real reason why it's allowed. There's just no real point in prosecuting/worrying about a dead product that doesn't affect their profits.
It doesn't make the emu anymore legal, it's just that these companies probably look at it and say, "why bother?" It's not competing with any of their products, it's not being sold, and it's a long-dead game.
Like others mentioned, if there were money involved(on either side), directly or indirectly, they'd be on them instantly.
That doesn't mean they won't get the sudden urge to shut them down at some point in the near future, though. Now that the new IP owners are "settling in" and have things rolling, they could very well start cracking down on it sometime soon.
Players bought the game and therefore own said game and the "expectation" of being able to play it.
The SWG servers have been shut down however - unlike WoW.
SoE/DBG has no interest in closing the servers since they couldn't operate the game even if they wanted to - unlike WoW. If they did however the legalities might turn on the definition of "reasonable expectation of service". How many years after a person bought a game.
Disney's interest would be the IP usage. Company insists servers close. People say no problem but you need to reinstate the service. If this went to court Disney could "win" but face the risk of finding themselves with an attachment to reinstate the service. Not a certainty but it would be a risk and if it came to pass that would cost Disney loadsa money - would they pay DBG, EA, do it themselves ...
So low gain, high risk, guaranteed risk avoidance strategy as in don't go to court .... pretty easy company decision to make.
Disney's interest would be the IP usage. Company insists servers close. People say no problem but you need to reinstate the service. If this went to court Disney could "win" but face the risk of finding themselves with an attachment to reinstate the service.
Where in the world do you get that idea from.
The only thing you "own" is the physical media... as in they can not come to your house and demand that you return the CD...
The rest was access to a service... No different than if a magazine goes OOB or Netflix have drop a series from their service. (or for that matter have to shut down)
Any real lawyers in here? Because thus far I see a lot of hot air with no real basis in fact. I am not, but doing about 5 minutes of research I found a CNN article that reads like this:
A lot of gray area surrounding the use of emulators. Everything else in this thread is just speculation (Read: Gossip) until proven otherwise.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Actually you would need a even more specific skillset than just lawyer... you would need one that specialize in copyright and trademark... Any way as far as it stands today to the best of my knowledge.... (due to how things generally are settled) a service is a service and not something you can buy like physical goods. (that is why most see it as legal to set up your own private server to run the game... You do after all own the physical media... keyword "private". With a MMOG that is ofc mostly pointless as they can generally not be played solo... But it falls under the same umbrella as "hacking" a old game to work on modern system for your own use)
But as we have very few actual cases it becomes a god awful mess of legal bickering and argumentation. Not to mention the whole problem of digital "physical" goods.
I don't think they bother because it doesn't actually loose them much money. A few thousand players do hardly steal many players from TOR. Some of them probabaly play TOR anyways and most wouldn't even if their SWG server shut down.
They could put their legal deparetment on it but it would probably cost them more money, and they might upset some fans who might buy EA games in the future.
I assume they have larger problems with Star wars copyright to bother with.
If 100K players suddenly started to play things would be different but now they have little to gain.
Does that make it ok?
Couldn't it set a precedent if the copyright holder chooses to do nothing?
Well they can spend a million dollars trying to make people stop playing their dead game. Or they can just let it alone. If they planned on making money off their copyright then yes they would do something but they never plan on making money from it again so just let it go.
It would definitely come into play if Nostralius and Blizzard went to the courtroom and Blizzard would win easily. As far as SWG goes it would mostly depend on which way the courtroom it was heard in leans.
I don't know about easily, it really depends on the quality of each side's lawyers. Blizzard would have to prove that Nostralius was causing Blizzard to lose money.
Definitely an argument there. I don't know how similar copyright law is in France.
According to the document "Fair Use" is also a long way from being fully defined.
If they chose arbitration it would be done in Los Angeles. If they chose to go to court it would be under the laws of the United States of America and the law of the state of Delaware. Delaware is a very corporate friendly haven. The only way around that would be if Nostalrius were the ones to file and even then it would likely be deferred to Delaware based on the TOS and the fact that France and the US are buddies and probably aren't going to risk any bad blood based on an emulated WoW server.
The case would be easy because Nostalrius straight jacked Blizzard's work that they paid for. Fair use wouldn't even need to apply. If Fair Use was the defense, it would also be relatively easy to show that they are losing money from it. Seeing as their sub numbers dropped drastically in the same time frame that Nostalrius came into being. It's easy to construe that at least some of those 800,000 people would still pay and play on official servers if Nostalrius was not around.
Also, in the case of the game itself, if any technology or anything was licensed by Blizzard from another company then Blizzard is obligated to protect those licenses and there would likely be multiple plaintiffs in the case.
There's really not much ground for Nostalrius to stand on. This is why emulated servers pretty much only exist so long as they fly under the radar and are, almost without exception, shuttered as soon as the C&D arrives.
I don't agree on your points.
From experience. My company is in Canada and I had a customer in LA. The customer in LA refused to pay me for $6000 worth of product. He basically said na na na na na fuck you I'm down here try to make me pay. I had to go to LA and sue him in their court not Canadian court. I sue him for $6000 and expenses. Cost the dipshit $46,832.63 because I won.
I believe that it would be international copyright law that would be argued in this case. Risking blood? on civil litigation concerning a video game? Judges really could give a shit about things like that. Doesn't make for good Judges and I don't believe neither Presidents will get involved or embassies be closed anytime soon.
IMHO according to http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/ there is definitely a case here. I think Blizzard "proving" loss, might be a little bit more difficult than you believe.
France is also a very liberal, Socialist leaning country. Very different from the U.S.
What I believe will happen is what big Corporations generally do. They will threaten Nostralius with a $100,000,000 lawsuit with the intention of pressuring the defendants to settle out of court. In a case that might hold merit the usual strategy is to keep the legal fee's running in over time and win through attrition.
Left facing a risk of being financially ruined for the rest of your life, your average everyday Joe is just going to agree to terms
Doesn't make the litigator right and it also makes a mockery of the legal system.
SWG emulators are completely legal for a few reasons:
1) 100% of the code is written by the emulator developers, so they haven't stolen anything. 2) SWG is shut down, so they aren't stealing customers from anywhere 3) Its a not-for-profit project, they only ask for donations to pay for the servers.
On the other hand, SWGemu actually states that by connecting to the emulator, it is we (the players) who are breaking the terms of the SWG EULA.
It's a fine line they walk though. If they ever started making money, they'd be shut down. If they got too many players, they'd probably attract attention and possibly a lawsuit / shutdown order, which I guess they'd comply with rather than have to hire a lawyer.
Forget about the game. The Star Wars IP is being infringed upon.
I don't think they bother because it doesn't actually loose them much money. A few thousand players do hardly steal many players from TOR. Some of them probabaly play TOR anyways and most wouldn't even if their SWG server shut down.
They could put their legal deparetment on it but it would probably cost them more money, and they might upset some fans who might buy EA games in the future.
I assume they have larger problems with Star wars copyright to bother with.
If 100K players suddenly started to play things would be different but now they have little to gain.
Yeah thats just it...The small numbers are no threat....It isnt like the WoW emus where there is alot of revenue going to the people running it.....I imagine SWTOR sees SWG as no threat and it would cost them more to shut it down than it is worth.
SWG emulators are completely legal for a few reasons:
1) 100% of the code is written by the emulator developers, so they haven't stolen anything. 2) SWG is shut down, so they aren't stealing customers from anywhere 3) Its a not-for-profit project, they only ask for donations to pay for the servers.
On the other hand, SWGemu actually states that by connecting to the emulator, it is we (the players) who are breaking the terms of the SWG EULA.
It's a fine line they walk though. If they ever started making money, they'd be shut down. If they got too many players, they'd probably attract attention and possibly a lawsuit / shutdown order, which I guess they'd comply with rather than have to hire a lawyer.
Forget about the game. The Star Wars IP is being infringed upon.
None of this is even remotely illegal until I start charging for the material itself. I can write a bunch of fan fiction on a blog, then put a big ass donation button at the top and say "Hey, please donate so that I can keep this web page running." Then all I have to do is write a couple of things on my site that have nothing to do with the SW universe and bam, it's all legal.
None of this is even remotely illegal until I start charging for the material itself. I can write a bunch of fan fiction on a blog, then put a big ass donation button at the top and say "Hey, please donate so that I can keep this web page running." Then all I have to do is write a couple of things on my site that have nothing to do with the SW universe and bam, it's all legal.
That is what people thought w.r.t. the Star Trek IP too. Especially crowdfunded Semi-professional ST fan movies.
But Paramount is now coming down hard with their legal boot and sueing people left, right and center.
None of this is even remotely illegal until I start charging for the material itself. I can write a bunch of fan fiction on a blog, then put a big ass donation button at the top and say "Hey, please donate so that I can keep this web page running." Then all I have to do is write a couple of things on my site that have nothing to do with the SW universe and bam, it's all legal.
That is what people thought w.r.t. the Star Trek IP too. Especially crowdfunded Semi-professional ST fan movies.
But Paramount is now coming down hard with their legal boot and sueing people left, right and center.
Have fun
Not entirely true. They have allowed dozens of fan films and fan TV shows to exist for years. The contention of many as to why they are suing this one, is because it raised a crapton of money through crowdfunding, it attracted professional actors who were actually in the ST universe and it attracted professional Hollywood effects personnel so much that it actually looks like a studio produced ST movie.
The fact that a crowdfunded movie could get real actors and look fantastic, right around the time that a new ST TV show is about to start production has them scared that if they don't take action on this, then they'll look stupid.
But like I said earlier in this post, laws are just paper until they're enforced. Paramount never felt threatened by Star Trek Continues and therefore it keeps operating. But Axanar? Shit that looks better than half the TNG movies. You can bet your ass they're gonna jump on it.
SWG emulators are completely legal for a few reasons:
1) 100% of the code is written by the emulator developers, so they haven't stolen anything. 2) SWG is shut down, so they aren't stealing customers from anywhere 3) Its a not-for-profit project, they only ask for donations to pay for the servers.
On the other hand, SWGemu actually states that by connecting to the emulator, it is we (the players) who are breaking the terms of the SWG EULA.
It's a fine line they walk though. If they ever started making money, they'd be shut down. If they got too many players, they'd probably attract attention and possibly a lawsuit / shutdown order, which I guess they'd comply with rather than have to hire a lawyer.
Forget about the game. The Star Wars IP is being infringed upon.
None of this is even remotely illegal until I start charging for the material itself. I can write a bunch of fan fiction on a blog, then put a big ass donation button at the top and say "Hey, please donate so that I can keep this web page running." Then all I have to do is write a couple of things on my site that have nothing to do with the SW universe and bam, it's all legal.
You can but not freely. If the owner of the IP believes that you are damaging the IP they can litigate. In the end it's up to a judge or jury.
In capitalism, they would only be shut down when they started making a lot of money.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I don't think they bother because it doesn't actually loose them much money. A few thousand players do hardly steal many players from TOR. Some of them probabaly play TOR anyways and most wouldn't even if their SWG server shut down.
They could put their legal deparetment on it but it would probably cost them more money, and they might upset some fans who might buy EA games in the future.
I assume they have larger problems with Star wars copyright to bother with.
If 100K players suddenly started to play things would be different but now they have little to gain.
Might depend on how you look at it. If they already have a legal team they are paying, it won't cost you additional money.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Disney is aware of SWGEMU and has not started nor have they stated that they intend to start any action against the EMU as long as the rules are followed.
It's amazing that something uncharacteristically fortunate happens and someone has to piss on the parade. If they were to decide to crush the EMUs then they should also start persecuting fan fiction directors and writers. Next they could attempt to sue anyone selling Star Wars toys second hand.
You throw something in the trash, I don't think you should be able to come back later and say "I want that back." As long as no one is making money from it then where is the injury?
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
I am sure there are many factors into why a company like Blizzard took action. IMO I think EA would do the same thing if, one such service got large numbers and the quality was just too good. From what I have read on these forums, you can still play WoW for free but only the largest free service was shut down.
Every argument as to why an Emu is illegal, theft and piracy concerning Vanilla WoW is also valid for Star Wars Galaxies.
Does not the risk losing control of the IP as stated by Blizzard:
"The honest answer is, failure to protect against intellectual property infringement would damage Blizzard’s rights. This applies to anything that uses WoW’s IP, including unofficial servers"
Not also ring true for Disney concerning Star Wars?
Comments
I don't think they had legal ground but none of us wanted to deal with courts. Those IP cases are expensive AF
I don't know how L2Java survived all this time. Guess they consulted a lawyer. I'm sure there have been takedown notices, since for a time Lineage 2 was the biggest IP of NCSoft. Funny, most people I know that have played L2 in the past have done so in a private server
In our takedown they were threatning us not only with IP but that according to some laws cracking their netcode was a crime. Probably none of that holds weight in court but as I said, that shit is too expensive to defend for an emulator I didn't know would get finished even or that it would be played at all. I mean ... it's tabula rasa, not WoW or any other major MMO.
1) 100% of the code is written by the emulator developers, so they haven't stolen anything.
2) SWG is shut down, so they aren't stealing customers from anywhere
3) Its a not-for-profit project, they only ask for donations to pay for the servers.
On the other hand, SWGemu actually states that by connecting to the emulator, it is we (the players) who are breaking the terms of the SWG EULA.
It's a fine line they walk though. If they ever started making money, they'd be shut down. If they got too many players, they'd probably attract attention and possibly a lawsuit / shutdown order, which I guess they'd comply with rather than have to hire a lawyer.
There's the point it's a different company/game altogether to consider as well. Maybe you're right and SOE as well as Disney/LA, are more "giving" in this regard. I don't think that makes Blizzard some how the "bad guy" though.
As for stealing and thievery. Technically yes. And we're all guilty of it by logging in, if we have. Including myself.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I believe that many of the people that do know about this EMU that work for a gaming developer let it exist out of pure heart! As a gamer of course!
It doesn't make the emu anymore legal, it's just that these companies probably look at it and say, "why bother?"
It's not competing with any of their products, it's not being sold, and it's a long-dead game.
Like others mentioned, if there were money involved(on either side), directly or indirectly, they'd be on them instantly.
That doesn't mean they won't get the sudden urge to shut them down at some point in the near future, though. Now that the new IP owners are "settling in" and have things rolling, they could very well start cracking down on it sometime soon.
The SWG servers have been shut down however - unlike WoW.
SoE/DBG has no interest in closing the servers since they couldn't operate the game even if they wanted to - unlike WoW. If they did however the legalities might turn on the definition of "reasonable expectation of service". How many years after a person bought a game.
Disney's interest would be the IP usage. Company insists servers close. People say no problem but you need to reinstate the service. If this went to court Disney could "win" but face the risk of finding themselves with an attachment to reinstate the service. Not a certainty but it would be a risk and if it came to pass that would cost Disney loadsa money - would they pay DBG, EA, do it themselves ...
So low gain, high risk, guaranteed risk avoidance strategy as in don't go to court .... pretty easy company decision to make.
The only thing you "own" is the physical media... as in they can not come to your house and demand that you return the CD...
The rest was access to a service... No different than if a magazine goes OOB or Netflix have drop a series from their service. (or for that matter have to shut down)
This have been a good conversation
A lot of gray area surrounding the use of emulators. Everything else in this thread is just speculation (Read: Gossip) until proven otherwise.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
But as we have very few actual cases it becomes a god awful mess of legal bickering and argumentation. Not to mention the whole problem of digital "physical" goods.
This have been a good conversation
From experience. My company is in Canada and I had a customer in LA. The customer in LA refused to pay me for $6000 worth of product. He basically said na na na na na fuck you I'm down here try to make me pay. I had to go to LA and sue him in their court not Canadian court. I sue him for $6000 and expenses. Cost the dipshit $46,832.63 because I won.
I believe that it would be international copyright law that would be argued in this case. Risking blood? on civil litigation concerning a video game? Judges really could give a shit about things like that. Doesn't make for good Judges and I don't believe neither Presidents will get involved or embassies be closed anytime soon.
IMHO according to http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/ there is definitely a case here. I think Blizzard "proving" loss, might be a little bit more difficult than you believe.
France is also a very liberal, Socialist leaning country. Very different from the U.S.
What I believe will happen is what big Corporations generally do. They will threaten Nostralius with a $100,000,000 lawsuit with the intention of pressuring the defendants to settle out of court. In a case that might hold merit the usual strategy is to keep the legal fee's running in over time and win through attrition.
Left facing a risk of being financially ruined for the rest of your life, your average everyday Joe is just going to agree to terms
Doesn't make the litigator right and it also makes a mockery of the legal system.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I can write all the fan fiction I want. I can dress up like darth maul and make all the videos I want. I can write songs about Star Wars. I can even parody the subject matter under fair use.
None of this is even remotely illegal until I start charging for the material itself. I can write a bunch of fan fiction on a blog, then put a big ass donation button at the top and say "Hey, please donate so that I can keep this web page running." Then all I have to do is write a couple of things on my site that have nothing to do with the SW universe and bam, it's all legal.
But Paramount is now coming down hard with their legal boot and sueing people left, right and center.
Have fun
The fact that a crowdfunded movie could get real actors and look fantastic, right around the time that a new ST TV show is about to start production has them scared that if they don't take action on this, then they'll look stupid.
But like I said earlier in this post, laws are just paper until they're enforced. Paramount never felt threatened by Star Trek Continues and therefore it keeps operating. But Axanar? Shit that looks better than half the TNG movies. You can bet your ass they're gonna jump on it.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Might depend on how you look at it. If they already have a legal team they are paying, it won't cost you additional money.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It's amazing that something uncharacteristically fortunate happens and someone has to piss on the parade. If they were to decide to crush the EMUs then they should also start persecuting fan fiction directors and writers. Next they could attempt to sue anyone selling Star Wars toys second hand.
You throw something in the trash, I don't think you should be able to come back later and say "I want that back." As long as no one is making money from it then where is the injury?
Every argument as to why an Emu is illegal, theft and piracy concerning Vanilla WoW is also valid for Star Wars Galaxies.
Does not the risk losing control of the IP as stated by Blizzard:
"The honest answer is, failure to protect against intellectual property infringement would damage Blizzard’s rights. This applies to anything that uses WoW’s IP, including unofficial servers"
Not also ring true for Disney concerning Star Wars?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee