You guys wouldn't have dealt well with pnp adnd back in the 70s.
Well, there is a reason why DND changed it. Just like there's a reason why Fire Emblem did. Just because an idea is old doesn't mean it's GOOD. They realized it's bad so they changed it.
They changed due to the complaints of the modern player base that focus much more on things being 'fair" like a team sport and less on a realistic virtual world where variance would not only be expected, but viewed as a challenge to overcome.
It's only a challenge to overcome for the unlucky. For the lucky, it's an advantage that required no effort to get.
This worked in the old days because you could find / buy potions to increase your HP up until that levels HP cap ( based on class ). Not having any control over it here is a bit crazy since any extra HP could mean a lot + having several bad rolls would add up over time.
Researching more into this, it appears the HP difference is very small in terms of percent relativity (1-3%), but the MP differences are HUGE, with disparities of almost a 33% difference (185 WP vs 250 WP in one example comparison of a level 52 warrior vs a level 50 warrior with the same build. The level 52 one is the one with the 185 WP, btw. Another example being player who after finding this out, compared himself to other rangers and found he had around 90 WP less than most other rangers). Possibly because gaining 1-3 more or less HP per level when everyone has 3k HP is much less of a deal than gaining 1-3 more or less MP per level when everyone only has like, 150-200 MP.
......as an aside, the ranger player is quitting (and he was a whale). The warrior one... well, he's clearly unhappy and going to try to get the devs to change it. Oi.
Again, I'm pretty sure that whatever this feature adds to the game won't make up for what it's going to lose for it, but it appears to have been a decision based around the developers' personal ideals rather than cold-hearted business practicality anyways.
Imagine a mmo without some RNG. That is a dreadful thought! No identity, every player playing the same cookie cutter classes/race with no individuality. Regardless if the RNG is character based or gear based. It offers a player a sense of individuality with his or her character. I am not fond of seeing a 1000 people running that same cookie cutter paladin with exactly the same stats and armor in a mmorpg. How boring that would be.
I personally like to know that my character is mine. Mine alone,and not one of a thousand clones that most everyone else is playing! Talk about a game going into stagnation!
This is hyperbole. No one is saying "No RNG" they are saying this is a bad application for RNG. Stat level increases should be an even budget across the board. Ding a level, get XX points this stat and YY points to that stat, etc. So by level cap, everyone has the same number of stat points allotted. I am all for how AO did it where you get less points than you need in certain level ranges and more than you need in others. Teaches you how plan it out. and make do. But this is wrong. I'll be there will be RNG modifiers for sale in the Cash Shop. Oh, yeah, "Don't level without it".
You guys wouldn't have dealt well with pnp adnd back in the 70s.
Well, there is a reason why DND changed it. Just like there's a reason why Fire Emblem did. Just because an idea is old doesn't mean it's GOOD. They realized it's bad so they changed it.
and, there is a reason why the earlier versions of DnD have been better :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I would say the OP and people in that camp don't really want an MMORPG. They want an Action MMO, MOBA, or an MMOFPS rule set. All the things that make up and RPG are built, in certain aspects, on RNG "die" rolls. Not everyone has the same health, strength, and effective ability. This wasn't just a D&D thing. This was an RPG thing.
I would say that for the most part I agree with you. There is a segment of players who aren't interested in the character's stats affecting skill so much as their own ability to play skillfully.
having said that, there is a difference between a game that let's one roll their stats or transparently assigns stats so the player can see everything and one that doesn't mention any of this.
Again, it seems small for the most part (I haven't looked at the details of the above post claiming a 33% difference in mana so I'm not clear on how that manifests.
If that indeed is the case and mana pools can be that different then the developers need to have players aware of this. I'm sure many will want to reroll.
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The idea of absolute balance in an MMORPG is where WoW went wrong and why they are correcting their mistakes with the next expansion. The mission to strive for absolute balance is the ruin of every MMORPG. It belongs in MOBAs not MMORPGs.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Meh, it IS kinda lame... but since I don't play for the competitive PvP, it matters little to me. Still... it'd be nice if the community could get them to change that. I even loathed random stats on games like Icewind Dale, where you could roll as much as you want, or save/load if something didn't go your way... so I utterly detest it in an MMO where what you get is permanent, with you unable to do a damn thing about it.
Of course with RNG being RNG... it's entirely possible the biggest carebear will wind up as the one with the highest HP on the server. How hilarious would that be?! xD
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If they let players buy and sell characters or accounts this could be a gold mine, literally.
Could be. But everyone is going to quit over this and the sky is falling, so GG right?
Can't wait for those who would quit over this to actually do it and improve the average IQ of the community.
BTW these are the two official statements from Daum about this:
"After checking with the developers I can confirm this is 100% intended, there is a range for how much HP and MP are gained with each level to add variety between characters without giving too much of an advantage. They believe that no two characters should be identical and that these variations add to the game, making each character more unique and the game more fun.
Hopefully this clears up the question posed, and good luck rolling that nat 20 "
And:
"The Developers declined providing specific numbers, but as I previously stated they have explained that the variations are not to an extent that it harms the balance in game-play."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I am actually quite impressed by this feature in BDO. And it reinforces my stance that Pearl Abyss really did put a lot of thought into how they implemented the many features in BDO giving it the kind of depth and substance we haven't seen in an MMORPG in a very long time.
What many critics of this game design fail to take into account is the reason why PA felt the need to implement it in the first place. They could, of course, have taken the easy way out and simply did what every other MMORPG developer has done to this point, and developed yet another clone. They chose not to, however, and in so doing they addressed a common problem impacting most, if not all, of these MMORPG clones in that when it is all said and done, their characters end up reflecting mirror image cookie cutter classes of one another due to that information being readily available on the various game sites. This, in essence, renders character development decisions made while leveling all but irrelevant. By implemented a feature such as this one, it at least ensures that no class will be exactly the same avoiding a game in which all of the classes will be cookie cutters of one another at end game.
Not that I would expect critics of the game to understand or appreciate the value of such a feature. We all have our own personal opinions and agendas regarding what we find enjoyable. I mean, we do have an obvious subset of the MMO gaming community who love cheats and hacks and have no problem using them after all. I don't think I need to mention what subset that group of players would fall into, but they, along with their less reckless brethren, have no doubt influenced MMORPG development dictating and changing the genre's game play, fueled no less by capitalist greed that has inspired developers to bastardize the genre in and effort to entice the FPS/MOBA player base, and thereby maximize their bottom line profits.
That all being said, it is my hope that developers begin sticking to their guns and continue implementing features such as these into the MMORPG genre. Maybe then this subset of the MMORPG genre will go back to playing games that are better suited to fulfill their "competitive" PvP needs, and by doing so allow the MMORPG genre to again find its identity. I will not hold my breath since this would require developers to stop chasing the all mighty dollar and make good MMORPG game development the priority, but who knows, BDO just might be the game that sets us on that right track.
Maybe then this subset of the MMORPG genre will go back to playing games that are better suited to fulfill their "competitive" PvP needs
Regardless. Their tears are delicious knowing what jerks they've been on the BDO forums of late.
The ignorance is thick on that forum. Sometimes its hard to believe those are human beings creating posts in that forum. Makes me feel really bad about where society is today. Its not always what they say, although that is often the case, but more so the mindset behind the things they say that is disturbing. I used to gloss over that forum when I first started playing. Now I just avoid it altogether. Its not worth reading. There are people in that forum in need of some serious help ... and I've been told that's mild compared to other PvP game forums
Maybe then this subset of the MMORPG genre will go back to playing games that are better suited to fulfill their "competitive" PvP needs
Regardless. Their tears are delicious knowing what jerks they've been on the BDO forums of late.
The ignorance is thick on that forum. Sometimes its hard to believe those are human beings creating posts in that forum. Makes me feel really bad about where society is today. Its not always what they say, although that is often the case, but more so the mindset behind the things they say that is disturbing. I used to gloss over that forum when I first started playing. Now I just avoid it altogether. Its not worth reading. There are people in that forum in need of some serious help ... and I've been told that's mild compared to other PvP game forums
I agree. It's like reading the comment section on MSN articles full of angry and spiteful baby boomers. It makes the bickering around here look like a Sunday school debate over what donuts to have for next week.
It sounds to me you just talking to hear yourself talk. I've never lied to you at all nor anyone. I'll give my opinion and label it as such if you require that. I've rarely seen another player "lie" so much as give their opinion. If you can't tell the difference, and it seems you can't, that's something you have to work on. I suspect it's not only games where this is an issue for you.
A lesser experience? How would you know? I certainly wasn't playing the game thinking "hmmm, for some reason I feel like my experience is somehow lesser than the player next to me. Or, wow, I don't know what it is but I'm having 3% more fun than I expected. Which is why I don't see their justification that this makes the game "more fun".
If it can be proven that there is a 50% difference in a character just by hitting "create character" then sure, that's something they are going to have to answer to. But until that time comes one can decide to just play the game or decide it's not worth it and move on.
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Classy.
You responded to me ... I think the only one who wants to hear themselves talk is the BDO hero yourself, who swoops in on every critical thread to decry any negativity. But that's what you don't understand, you don't have to actively try to mislead someone to do so. A biased opinion is only as good as a lie.
How would I know? Because Daum literally just said so. They just admitted to giving players disadvantages for the sake of "uniqueness." Do you think its fair, or good game design, that someone who spent less money than you could have a better character, better chances at loot, and an overall better experience because of RNG? It doesn't make the game "more fun" it makes it unbalanced.
Imagine a mmo without some RNG. That is a dreadful thought! No identity, every player playing the same cookie cutter classes/race with no individuality. Regardless if the RNG is character based or gear based. It offers a player a sense of individuality with his or her character. I am not fond of seeing a 1000 people running that same cookie cutter paladin with exactly the same stats and armor in a mmorpg. How boring that would be.
I personally like to know that my character is mine. Mine alone,and not one of a thousand clones that most everyone else is playing! Talk about a game going into stagnation!
This is hyperbole. No one is saying "No RNG" they are saying this is a bad application for RNG. Stat level increases should be an even budget across the board. Ding a level, get XX points this stat and YY points to that stat, etc. So by level cap, everyone has the same number of stat points allotted. I am all for how AO did it where you get less points than you need in certain level ranges and more than you need in others. Teaches you how plan it out. and make do. But this is wrong. I'll be there will be RNG modifiers for sale in the Cash Shop. Oh, yeah, "Don't level without it".
So take the RPG out of the MMO? I mean those variations are basic RPG tenets. It seems odd that we criticize people using "MMO" to describe Hearthstone, Overwatch, or Destiny but we want to modify what RPG means. If MMO means "something" and "RPG" means something, then "MMORPG" means something.
Or I could be wrong and everyone who hates the RNG part of this would just rather this be an MMO-MOBA. But then I hope they wouldn't complain about the industry moving away from MMORPGs because no one wants to play them.
This argument really isn't about if games, specifically RPGs, should have RNG. It's about whether people really want to play MMORPGs like they say they do. The next time we see threads asking where the MMORPGs have gone we should think about this thread and others like it. Do people really want that?
Wanting a fair experience for yourself and others means you don't want to play MMOs? Sound logic. /s
The idea of absolute balance in an MMORPG is where WoW went wrong and why they are correcting their mistakes with the next expansion. The mission to strive for absolute balance is the ruin of every MMORPG. It belongs in MOBAs not MMORPGs.
This is totally different than what WoW did, in WoW they homogenized every class to the point where playing a rogue only felt like playing a rogue is when you are in stealth. Give every class healing abilities, every class having defensive abilities, every class with at least several abilities etc. In BDO it is more basic, amount of hp and mp players get per level up is rng, within same class. Just assume that someone is such unlucky rot that every level he gets 3-5% less in HP and MP gain per level than the top, that means at level 50 he is at least 150% less HP and MP than the top. Makes sense to you? Why do i have to play a game and be constantly told by the game : "look at this, you are such poor unlucky bastard"?
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It sure ain't looking like the ridiculous "it could add up to 150%" some are pulling out of... somewhere. Heck for the same class at the same levels AFTER 50 OR MORE leveling events 3% TOTAL overstates it.
The relevant columns by the way are the "HP w/o Bonuses" and "MP w/o Bonuses" since there are all kinds of things that increase them like guild bonuses, health (eating) training level, etc.
Still a small sample size but it IS a sample, not just random lunatic ravings. And it seems to validate what Daum is saying despite the fact that, as we all know in these forums, developers always lie just for the hell of it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Well, now I know why I kept losing - it wasn't me, it was my character...
Even if you could see these stats when you rolled the character, there's not a heck of a lot you can do about it unless you have the patience of Job - there's a 24 hour cooldown on character name re-use, even by the same account.
lunawisp was my peacebringer in City of Heroes. She lives on, in memory, as my gaming id
Well, now I know why I kept losing - it wasn't me, it was my character...
Even if you could see these stats when you rolled the character, there's not a heck of a lot you can do about it unless you have the patience of Job - there's a 24 hour cooldown on character name re-use, even by the same account.
Except, perhaps, use a different name I suppose.
But like you said, there really isn't anything to be done for it so best to just play and have fun and forget about it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
I dont even give a crap about stats lol
......as an aside, the ranger player is quitting (and he was a whale). The warrior one... well, he's clearly unhappy and going to try to get the devs to change it. Oi.
(source thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/4f8ymf/so_apparently_leveling_stats_are_random_time_to/)
Again, I'm pretty sure that whatever this feature adds to the game won't make up for what it's going to lose for it, but it appears to have been a decision based around the developers' personal ideals rather than cold-hearted business practicality anyways.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
having said that, there is a difference between a game that let's one roll their stats or transparently assigns stats so the player can see everything and one that doesn't mention any of this.
Again, it seems small for the most part (I haven't looked at the details of the above post claiming a 33% difference in mana so I'm not clear on how that manifests.
If that indeed is the case and mana pools can be that different then the developers need to have players aware of this. I'm sure many will want to reroll.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Of course with RNG being RNG... it's entirely possible the biggest carebear will wind up as the one with the highest HP on the server. How hilarious would that be?! xD
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
BTW these are the two official statements from Daum about this:
"After checking with the developers I can confirm this is 100% intended, there is a range for how much HP and MP are gained with each level to add variety between characters without giving too much of an advantage. They believe that no two characters should be identical and that these variations add to the game, making each character more unique and the game more fun.
Hopefully this clears up the question posed, and good luck rolling that nat 20
"
And:
"The Developers declined providing specific numbers, but as I previously stated they have explained that the variations are not to an extent that it harms the balance in game-play."
Source: http://forum.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?/profile/5852-cm_jouska/
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I am actually quite impressed by this feature in BDO. And it reinforces my stance that Pearl Abyss really did put a lot of thought into how they implemented the many features in BDO giving it the kind of depth and substance we haven't seen in an MMORPG in a very long time.
What many critics of this game design fail to take into account is the reason why PA felt the need to implement it in the first place. They could, of course, have taken the easy way out and simply did what every other MMORPG developer has done to this point, and developed yet another clone. They chose not to, however, and in so doing they addressed a common problem impacting most, if not all, of these MMORPG clones in that when it is all said and done, their characters end up reflecting mirror image cookie cutter classes of one another due to that information being readily available on the various game sites. This, in essence, renders character development decisions made while leveling all but irrelevant. By implemented a feature such as this one, it at least ensures that no class will be exactly the same avoiding a game in which all of the classes will be cookie cutters of one another at end game.
Not that I would expect critics of the game to understand or appreciate the value of such a feature. We all have our own personal opinions and agendas regarding what we find enjoyable. I mean, we do have an obvious subset of the MMO gaming community who love cheats and hacks and have no problem using them after all. I don't think I need to mention what subset that group of players would fall into, but they, along with their less reckless brethren, have no doubt influenced MMORPG development dictating and changing the genre's game play, fueled no less by capitalist greed that has inspired developers to bastardize the genre in and effort to entice the FPS/MOBA player base, and thereby maximize their bottom line profits.
That all being said, it is my hope that developers begin sticking to their guns and continue implementing features such as these into the MMORPG genre. Maybe then this subset of the MMORPG genre will go back to playing games that are better suited to fulfill their "competitive" PvP needs, and by doing so allow the MMORPG genre to again find its identity. I will not hold my breath since this would require developers to stop chasing the all mighty dollar and make good MMORPG game development the priority, but who knows, BDO just might be the game that sets us on that right track.
Regardless. Their tears are delicious knowing what jerks they've been on the BDO forums of late.
The ignorance is thick on that forum. Sometimes its hard to believe those are human beings creating posts in that forum. Makes me feel really bad about where society is today. Its not always what they say, although that is often the case, but more so the mindset behind the things they say that is disturbing. I used to gloss over that forum when I first started playing. Now I just avoid it altogether. Its not worth reading. There are people in that forum in need of some serious help ... and I've been told that's mild compared to other PvP game forums
You responded to me ... I think the only one who wants to hear themselves talk is the BDO hero yourself, who swoops in on every critical thread to decry any negativity. But that's what you don't understand, you don't have to actively try to mislead someone to do so. A biased opinion is only as good as a lie.
How would I know? Because Daum literally just said so. They just admitted to giving players disadvantages for the sake of "uniqueness." Do you think its fair, or good game design, that someone who spent less money than you could have a better character, better chances at loot, and an overall better experience because of RNG? It doesn't make the game "more fun" it makes it unbalanced.
Agreed.
Thanks.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18YB-Ykh4UEOp7uh6eCR8xnK9ZfJJTsaE69snfGKhZBc/edit#gid=291962526
It sure ain't looking like the ridiculous "it could add up to 150%" some are pulling out of... somewhere. Heck for the same class at the same levels AFTER 50 OR MORE leveling events 3% TOTAL overstates it.
The relevant columns by the way are the "HP w/o Bonuses" and "MP w/o Bonuses" since there are all kinds of things that increase them like guild bonuses, health (eating) training level, etc.
Still a small sample size but it IS a sample, not just random lunatic ravings. And it seems to validate what Daum is saying despite the fact that, as we all know in these forums, developers always lie just for the hell of it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Even if you could see these stats when you rolled the character, there's not a heck of a lot you can do about it unless you have the patience of Job - there's a 24 hour cooldown on character name re-use, even by the same account.
But like you said, there really isn't anything to be done for it so best to just play and have fun and forget about it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon