However ... i hope they stick to the old rule "Its done when its done" and only release it when the product matches the vision. Like it has been done with "Witcher 3". I do not really care when exactly that is. I have some 200+ games to play on Steam and GoG to keep me entertained until SC launches.
But it's not going to be "when the project matches the vision", unless you're going to argue the vision is "minimum viable product". So, your point kinda sucks.
edit: typo
Again.. 1) CR very clearly states that SC will launch with all systems in place.
2) Some of the latest stretch goals will be implemented after SC 1.0 release. Now, for a number of persons here playing ignorant the latest stretch goals consist mainly of ships, ship interior customization and one is about pets.
3) Go to the latest chairman video and start watching from 23:20. If you have trouble in comprehending spoken English i can write it down. Just let me know.
Same goes for the others here pretending ignorance.
Bonus: 22:16 CR casually mentions that they have moved from 32bit to 64bit math. Something your mentor claims as impossible.
So yeah, the project is steadily matching the vision.
oh hang on, they've moved from 32bit to 64bit, I seem to remember in my own dim programming past when you move up a bit set that you have to totally redo nearly everything, I could be wrong but moving to a 64bit math base would entail a ton of extra work
“Nevertheless, the human brain, which survives by hoping from one second to another, will always endeavor to put off the moment of truth. Moist” ― Terry Pratchett, Making Money
However ... i hope they stick to the old rule "Its done when its done" and only release it when the product matches the vision. Like it has been done with "Witcher 3". I do not really care when exactly that is. I have some 200+ games to play on Steam and GoG to keep me entertained until SC launches.
But it's not going to be "when the project matches the vision", unless you're going to argue the vision is "minimum viable product". So, your point kinda sucks.
edit: typo
Again.. 1) CR very clearly states that SC will launch with all systems in place.
2) Some of the latest stretch goals will be implemented after SC 1.0 release. Now, for a number of persons here playing ignorant the latest stretch goals consist mainly of ships, ship interior customization and one is about pets.
3) Go to the latest chairman video and start watching from 23:20. If you have trouble in comprehending spoken English i can write it down. Just let me know.
Same goes for the others here pretending ignorance.
Bonus: 22:16 CR casually mentions that they have moved from 32bit to 64bit math. Something your mentor claims as impossible.
So yeah, the project is steadily matching the vision.
I understand the spin. You don't have to reiterate it to me 5 different ways to make me understand how you're trying very hard to explain this away.
Also, " my " mentor? I am absolutely sure you can't articulate one point of how my understanding of this project differs from Derek Smart's. You really don't have business addressing me in such a way. There are points upon which he and I agree, and quite frankly, he's been more "correct" and insightful than you have. So, whatever. Keep talking.
Also, " my " mentor? I am absolutely sure you can't articulate one point of how my understanding of this project differs from Derek Smart's. You really don't have business addressing me in such a way. There are points upon which he and I agree, and quite frankly, he's been more "correct" and insightful than you have. So, whatever. Keep talking.
Okay, can you present one point upon which you and he do not agree ?
As for correct and insightful, the facts speak for those listening. DS stated in all eight tones that 64bit in 3D space (maybe the most important thing for SC's scope) is impossible to achieve. CIG did it, not doing it, they did it.
Then he went on stating that he has solid info about CIG running out of money. How can a cash starved company be on the search for 30+ specialists as CR mentioned in one of his latest update videos, that mr. DS didn't bother to explain to us.
And let's not talk about the 16/4 mega event fiasco. Days prior he kept rambling on his blogs about the solid info he had. He provided us with a set date and when this whole thing bombed his response was to ban people asking about it.
Now he has set his sights on a new target. A door.
I know and watch this guy since his days in Alganon. He never was correct or insightful about anything.
Also, " my " mentor? I am absolutely sure you can't articulate one point of how my understanding of this project differs from Derek Smart's. You really don't have business addressing me in such a way. There are points upon which he and I agree, and quite frankly, he's been more "correct" and insightful than you have. So, whatever. Keep talking.
Okay, can you present one point upon which you and he do not agree ?
As for correct and insightful, the facts speak for those listening. DS stated in all eight tones that 64bit in 3D space (maybe the most important thing for SC's scope) is impossible to achieve. CIG did it, not doing it, they did it.
Then he went on stating that he has solid info about CIG running out of money. How can a cash starved company be on the search for 30+ specialists as CR mentioned in one of his latest update videos, that mr. DS didn't bother to explain to us.
And let's not talk about the 16/4 mega event fiasco. Days prior he kept rambling on his blogs about the solid info he had. He provided us with a set date and when this whole thing bombed his response was to ban people asking about it.
Now he has set his sights on a new target. A door.
I know and watch this guy since his days in Alganon. He never was correct or insightful about anything.
Ok I follow SC but not as much as the fans. Meaning I don't read every news post but can you show me the article where they say they successfully converted to 64bit?
Okay, can you present one point upon which you and he do not agree ?
I don't believe the money's all spent. I don't believe the company's expense is over 2 mil/month, even though it's quoted often, because there aren't "300 full time employees with benefits", as a matter of fact, significantly fewer.
I believe there's a large chunk of 40 mil or more, somewhere, upon which upper echelon draw interest/dividend. I think it's a protected nest egg, intended to be divided at such point the "way is clear" to cut and run with it. Also, there are physical properties in which backer money was invested, and those will fall to the owners of the inhabiting LLCs.
So, when you see people talk about the project needing funds, I think CIG only "needs" them, so they're not chipping off that mountain of cash in the center. That can be alot of income off 40 mil or more into someone's pocket, and no one's talking about it. I could get 8.5% off that, safely, myself. Professionals could get up to 25% with risks.
I think that's a big deal, but no one else seems to think about it. I've brought it up often, but there's little proof or evidence if you buy into the whole "they're broke, they spent it all" etc.
You know, I read one of their "refund denial" emails, and it said something to the effect of, "we can't just give money back because it's not just sitting in a bank somehwere".
Well, bullshit.
Do they have thousands of mattresses stuffed with cash? no... Do they have 50 kitchens full of rainy-day cookie jars? no... No one does that. No one has tens of millions of dollars and sits on it while it collects no interest/dividend. That is crazy. Further, there's no reasonto collect zero income on those funds. Very safe deposits, even if they did use a bank, with that kind of capitol, start at 3%.
As for the OPs concerns. I wasn't that frightened by what he said. I just think his idea of "minimal" and "viable" are beyond what is common. . I just hope it is not beyond what they can do. At some point they will have to pick a core set of features (this could be huge) and release it in a good state. I think that is all he was saying there.
As for the OPs concerns. I wasn't that frightened by what he said. I just think his idea of "minimal" and "viable" are beyond what is common. . I just hope it is not beyond what they can do. At some point they will have to pick a core set of features (this could be huge) and release it in a good state. I think that is all he was saying there.
it's funny that noone is mad that the "core set of features", aka the milestones you all backed, were all supposed to be in the game when it released. this keeps getting funnier and funnier.
can't wait for Squadron 42, the point and click cinematic adventure.
Okay, can you present one point upon which you and he do not agree ?
I don't believe the money's all spent. I don't believe the company's expense is over 2 mil/month, even though it's quoted often, because there aren't "300 full time employees with benefits", as a matter of fact, significantly fewer.
I believe there's a large chunk of 40 mil or more, somewhere, upon which upper echelon draw interest/dividend. I think it's a protected nest egg, intended to be divided at such point the "way is clear" to cut and run with it. Also, there are physical properties in which backer money was invested, and those will fall to the owners of the inhabiting LLCs.
So, when you see people talk about the project needing funds, I think CIG only "needs" them, so they're not chipping off that mountain of cash in the center. That can be alot of income off 40 mil or more into someone's pocket, and no one's talking about it. I could get 8.5% off that, safely, myself. Professionals could get up to 25% with risks.
I think that's a big deal, but no one else seems to think about it. I've brought it up often, but there's little proof or evidence if you buy into the whole "they're broke, they spent it all" etc.
So there's your one point.
I'm no lawyer, but I believe the term "fraud" would apply, here. Unless it's an account in Panama, Switzerland, or the Cayman Islands, I don't think just any bank is going to accept a check for 40 million, no questions asked:
"Oh, well, about a million people gave it to us to make a game, but we don't need it just yet so we're going to invest it instead" wouldn't fly.
What you are saying would be a very smart thing to do if Chris and Sandi won the lottery; however, this isn't lottery money: it's crowdfunding, something the FTC takes very seriously.
There may not be any evidence against what you are saying (hence my exhortations for financial clarity since day 1, "as if" CIG were/is a public company), I'm more inclined to believe a scenario that doesn't involve people going to jail if uncovered.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Ok I follow SC but not as much as the fans. Meaning I don't read every news post but can you show me the article where they say they successfully converted to 64bit?
Okay, can you present one point upon which you and he do not agree ?
I don't believe the money's all spent. I don't believe the company's expense is over 2 mil/month, even though it's quoted often, because there aren't "300 full time employees with benefits", as a matter of fact, significantly fewer.
I believe there's a large chunk of 40 mil or more, somewhere, upon which upper echelon draw interest/dividend. I think it's a protected nest egg, intended to be divided at such point the "way is clear" to cut and run with it. Also, there are physical properties in which backer money was invested, and those will fall to the owners of the inhabiting LLCs.
So, when you see people talk about the project needing funds, I think CIG only "needs" them, so they're not chipping off that mountain of cash in the center. That can be alot of income off 40 mil or more into someone's pocket, and no one's talking about it. I could get 8.5% off that, safely, myself. Professionals could get up to 25% with risks.
I think that's a big deal, but no one else seems to think about it. I've brought it up often, but there's little proof or evidence if you buy into the whole "they're broke, they spent it all" etc.
So there's your one point.
I'm no lawyer, but I believe the term "fraud" would apply, here. Unless it's an account in Panama, Switzerland, or the Cayman Islands, I don't think just any bank is going to accept a check for 40 million, no questions asked:
"Oh, well, about a million people gave it to us to make a game, but we don't need it just yet so we're going to invest it instead" wouldn't fly.
What you are saying would be a very smart thing to do if Chris and Sandi won the lottery; however, this isn't lottery money: it's crowdfunding, something the FTC takes very seriously.
There may not be any evidence against what you are saying (hence my exhortations for financial clarity since day 1, "as if" CIG were/is a public company), I'm more inclined to believe a scenario that doesn't involve people going to jail if uncovered.
So you don't believe there's a mountain of unused funds, you believe as others the company is ( comparatively ) broke?
So you don't believe there's a mountain of unused funds, you believe as others the company is ( comparatively ) broke?
"I believe there's a large chunk of 40 mil or more, somewhere, upon which
upper echelon draw interest/dividend. I think it's a protected nest
egg, intended to be divided at such point the "way is clear" to cut and
run with it."
Do you see it could also be possible this protected "nest egg" is meant to be used for the company to keep it going and work on SC to be able to be continued in the case other funds get low or incoming money drops dramatically?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Okay, can you present one point upon which you and he do not agree ?
I don't believe the money's all spent. I don't believe the company's expense is over 2 mil/month, even though it's quoted often, because there aren't "300 full time employees with benefits", as a matter of fact, significantly fewer.
I believe there's a large chunk of 40 mil or more, somewhere, upon which upper echelon draw interest/dividend. I think it's a protected nest egg, intended to be divided at such point the "way is clear" to cut and run with it. Also, there are physical properties in which backer money was invested, and those will fall to the owners of the inhabiting LLCs.
So, when you see people talk about the project needing funds, I think CIG only "needs" them, so they're not chipping off that mountain of cash in the center. That can be alot of income off 40 mil or more into someone's pocket, and no one's talking about it. I could get 8.5% off that, safely, myself. Professionals could get up to 25% with risks.
I think that's a big deal, but no one else seems to think about it. I've brought it up often, but there's little proof or evidence if you buy into the whole "they're broke, they spent it all" etc.
So there's your one point.
I'm no lawyer, but I believe the term "fraud" would apply, here. Unless it's an account in Panama, Switzerland, or the Cayman Islands, I don't think just any bank is going to accept a check for 40 million, no questions asked:
"Oh, well, about a million people gave it to us to make a game, but we don't need it just yet so we're going to invest it instead" wouldn't fly.
What you are saying would be a very smart thing to do if Chris and Sandi won the lottery; however, this isn't lottery money: it's crowdfunding, something the FTC takes very seriously.
There may not be any evidence against what you are saying (hence my exhortations for financial clarity since day 1, "as if" CIG were/is a public company), I'm more inclined to believe a scenario that doesn't involve people going to jail if uncovered.
So you don't believe there's a mountain of unused funds, you believe as others the company is ( comparatively ) broke?
At this point, I'm not ruling anything out, but in my humble opinion it would be pretty amazing if the reverse were true. From an academic perspective the business environment has changed so much since Enron/WorldCom/Sarbanes-Oxley, and CIG/RSI have a lawyer as co-founder. The Escapist's sources may have independently corroborated they had 8 million left in October, which is about the closest I've seen to any evidence of a burn rate or Free Cash Flow.
All this would be public knowledge if CIG had opened their books from the beginning, like any public company. Some 'armchair accountants' may have even been able to them along the way with small, quarterly course corrections.
Perhaps I'm being naive, but it's easier for me to picture CIG's leadership just being somewhat superfluous / profligate under the star-struck-ness of earning a Guiness World Record than to imagine their inner circle taking a risk that, according to what I absorbed in Business Ethics (MBA 610), would likely amount to prison time if caught.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Ok I follow SC but not as much as the fans. Meaning I don't read every news post but can you show me the article where they say they successfully converted to 64bit?
Another 6 month old link with maybe 2 relevant posts in it.
The 'truth' is 64 isnt nor was 'impossible' even though people love to spin that that is what a certain person said. But here is the most relevant post in this speculation thread.
To clear this up:
In computation you can store data in datatypes that are encoded with different numbers of "bits". 1 bit can encode 2 states, 2 bits 4, 8 bits 256 and so on. With 64 bit you can encode 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 different states.
For every variable you store you can define how many "bits" it will use. For example to store the health of your players you can easily get away with 8 bit (able to store from 0 to 255) if you know your players have Hitpoints in the range of max 100 to 150 HPs. If you only want to store one state (e.g. a chest being open OR closed and nothing in between) you get away with 1 bit (0 for "closed", 1 for "open").
This has nothing at all to do at all with if your executable is running on 32 or 64 bit OS, the first only has an adress space of up to 4 GB RAM (due to the addresses for the RAM only being able to store positions in 32 bits).
Star Citizen's "move to 64 bit" is talking about the coordinates the map is stored in. In 32 bit you can adresses up to 8 km with a "decent resolution", this is sufficient for a shooter where you run around on foot or maybe drive a tank, this is laughable for "space", thus CIG needs to convert the absolute map coordinates to 64 bit. This basically means that all variables dealing with global coordinates had to get updated to 64 bit, as well as all code handling those. The LOCAL map coordinates could still be 32 bit (unless CIG wants to build Super Star Destroyers larger than 8 km in each direction from coordinate 0).
The entire renderer for Star Citizen is also still probably still 32, including the coordinates for local cameras.
Yes it can be done (the math part anyway, they probably did that in a few months) but the implementation of it is the costly and time consuming part. Plus the gameworld/universe has to be huge. So in the end if this game ends up being a bunch of instances all over the place them wasting time doing the math and claiming they made a 64 bit game is just that, a waste of time. There is no need for 64 bit unless youre absolutely going to utilize the space 'correctly'. Which is something they havent figured out how to do yet.
Ok I follow SC but not as much as the fans. Meaning I don't read every news post but can you show me the article where they say they successfully converted to 64bit?
First link is speculation that it's in game. 2nd link they don't confirm its actually in game just that the client will be doing the work and the persons GPU won't be taxed. So is it safe to assume they haven't completed it yet then?
Ok I follow SC but not as much as the fans. Meaning I don't read every news post but can you show me the article where they say they successfully converted to 64bit?
First link is speculation that it's in game. 2nd link they don't confirm its actually in game just that the client will be doing the work and the persons GPU won't be taxed. So is it safe to assume they haven't completed it yet then?
they did the math (many have) they just havent figure out how to make it work.
Ok I follow SC but not as much as the fans. Meaning I don't read every news post but can you show me the article where they say they successfully converted to 64bit?
Another 6 month old link with maybe 2 relevant posts in it.
The 'truth' is 64 isnt nor was 'impossible' even though people love to spin that that is what a certain person said. But here is the most relevant post in this speculation thread.
To clear this up:
In computation you can store data in datatypes that are encoded with different numbers of "bits". 1 bit can encode 2 states, 2 bits 4, 8 bits 256 and so on. With 64 bit you can encode 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 different states.
For every variable you store you can define how many "bits" it will use. For example to store the health of your players you can easily get away with 8 bit (able to store from 0 to 255) if you know your players have Hitpoints in the range of max 100 to 150 HPs. If you only want to store one state (e.g. a chest being open OR closed and nothing in between) you get away with 1 bit (0 for "closed", 1 for "open").
This has nothing at all to do at all with if your executable is running on 32 or 64 bit OS, the first only has an adress space of up to 4 GB RAM (due to the addresses for the RAM only being able to store positions in 32 bits).
Star Citizen's "move to 64 bit" is talking about the coordinates the map is stored in. In 32 bit you can adresses up to 8 km with a "decent resolution", this is sufficient for a shooter where you run around on foot or maybe drive a tank, this is laughable for "space", thus CIG needs to convert the absolute map coordinates to 64 bit. This basically means that all variables dealing with global coordinates had to get updated to 64 bit, as well as all code handling those. The LOCAL map coordinates could still be 32 bit (unless CIG wants to build Super Star Destroyers larger than 8 km in each direction from coordinate 0).
The entire renderer for Star Citizen is also still probably still 32, including the coordinates for local cameras.
Yes it can be done (the math part anyway, they probably did that in a few months) but the implementation of it is the costly and time consuming part. Plus the gameworld/universe has to be huge. So in the end if this game ends up being a bunch of instances all over the place them wasting time doing the math and claiming they made a 64 bit game is just that, a waste of time. There is no need for 64 bit unless youre absolutely going to utilize the space 'correctly'. Which is something they havent figured out how to do yet.
What's your point?
Someone in this thread seemed to be think them going 64bit was dubious or not done, I did a quick google search, as I don't read every single thread about SC either as I am not a rabid white knight, and posted a link to the thread so he can see indeed it done/being worked on and then a second link to same thread to a post in particular that I found relevant.
It is relevant because people explains some of the confusion....is your post suppose to be some kind of dig towards me or are you just reiterating what I was getting at by posting these two links.
TBH the comments you have made so far about SC have me thinking your a hater jumping on anyone you seem to think is a rabid defender of CIG or Chris Roberts...I can assure you that I am neither a hater nor a disciple.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Ok I follow SC but not as much as the fans. Meaning I don't read every news post but can you show me the article where they say they successfully converted to 64bit?
First link is speculation that it's in game. 2nd link they don't confirm its actually in game just that the client will be doing the work and the persons GPU won't be taxed. So is it safe to assume they haven't completed it yet then?
they did the math (many have) they just havent figure out how to make it work.
Which is what I was asking. Guess they haven't then.
Someone in this thread seemed to be think them going 64bit was dubious or not done, I did a quick google search, as I don't read every single thread about SC either as I am not a rabid white knight, and posted a link to the thread so he can see indeed it done/being worked on and then a second link to same thread to a post in particular that I found relevant.
It is relevant because people explains some of the confusion....is your post suppose to be some kind of dig towards me or are you just reiterating what I was getting at by posting these two links.
TBH the comments you have made so far about SC have me thinking your a hater jumping on anyone you seem to think is a rabid defender of CIG or Chris Roberts...I can assure you that I am neither a hater nor a disciple.
No its not a dig, it clearing up the nonsense that goes on. They did the math, that part is easy, actually implementing that math is the 'impossible' part. Maybe not completely impossible but so expensive it isnt worth it for a video game. Even one that has made the money this one has because, as I said every developer who has commented said it wasnt enough money. None of them have speculated how much it would cost because the number is probably that big. But they also didnt want to look like they were bashing Roberts for trying.
As for explaining the confusion it actually deepens it. Because that was a speculation thread that is 6 months old and a few 'builds' ago. I think they said it would be in in 1.3 it wasnt, and it is now what 2.3? And it still isnt, the post I cut and pasted explained why.
Until they build a MASSIVE universe (Or a very large test bed one) the 'need' for the 64 bit portion is overkill to a large degree. But thats the point (critics point) the cost of building that map and testing that map and trying to figure out stuff people have already wasted millions of dollars trying to do (and failed) isnt 'worth' it.
A lot of people have done the math, a lot of people have made progress, but none of them have been able to do it in the way Roberts wants to. Thats why some people say its 'impossible'. But the pro camp says 'just because you cant do it doesnt mean he cant' Thats as good as "I know you are but what am I". I am sure you can also google how many people have tried it and failed, and I am sure its not a small list. If it were worth it (or possible at all) it would have been done a long time ago.
So you don't believe there's a mountain of unused funds, you believe as others the company is ( comparatively ) broke?
"I believe there's a large chunk of 40 mil or more, somewhere, upon which
upper echelon draw interest/dividend. I think it's a protected nest
egg, intended to be divided at such point the "way is clear" to cut and
run with it."
Do you see it could also be possible this protected "nest egg" is meant to be used for the company to keep it going and work on SC to be able to be continued in the case other funds get low or incoming money drops dramatically?
So long as the money is being used to make Star Citizen, and nothing else, sure.
Look, if Chris and Sandi want to pay themselves seven figures per year, I'm actually fine with that (even though this "looks bad" for a startup); they can invest it in whatever they want, after payroll. If CIG wants to buy fancy doors and coffee machines, whatever, put it under the "plant" column (just don't come crying to me if they file chapter 7). However, if CIG has any sort of "nest egg" that is earning interest in offshore accounts, or locked up in risky 25% ROI endeavors, then I'm right there with Harrison Ford saying "I have a bad feeling about this".
It's been a couple years since I graduated, and I am not currently working for a Fortune 500 or anything, not a CPA, but there is something called the Capital Asset Pricing Model and whatever's left from my advanced education is screaming that the above ain't it.
I could be wrong; but without poring through my old textbooks or contacting my old profs let me just say that what @Asm0deus and @Adjuvant1 suggest sound great for personal finance but very wrong for corporate finance.
Maybe someone with more experience can back me up.
Edit: so, yeah, obviously companies invest in other companies all the time, but because this is crowdfunding money we're talking about, that makes it different. I'm really not sure how this would play out in court, but my gut tells me that using crowdfunding to invest in other companies is wrong; CIG isn't expected to pay out dividends for backer pledges, they are expected to make a game.
Post edited by Phaserlight on
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Someone in this thread seemed to be think them going 64bit was dubious or not done, I did a quick google search, as I don't read every single thread about SC either as I am not a rabid white knight, and posted a link to the thread so he can see indeed it done/being worked on and then a second link to same thread to a post in particular that I found relevant.
It is relevant because people explains some of the confusion....is your post suppose to be some kind of dig towards me or are you just reiterating what I was getting at by posting these two links.
TBH the comments you have made so far about SC have me thinking your a hater jumping on anyone you seem to think is a rabid defender of CIG or Chris Roberts...I can assure you that I am neither a hater nor a disciple.
No its not a dig, it clearing up the nonsense that goes on. They did the math, that part is easy, actually implementing that math is the 'impossible' part. Maybe not completely impossible but so expensive it isnt worth it for a video game. Even one that has made the money this one has because, as I said every developer who has commented said it wasnt enough money. None of them have speculated how much it would cost because the number is probably that big. But they also didnt want to look like they were bashing Roberts for trying.
As for explaining the confusion it actually deepens it. Because that was a speculation thread that is 6 months old and a few 'builds' ago. I think they said it would be in in 1.3 it wasnt, and it is now what 2.3? And it still isnt, the post I cut and pasted explained why.
Until they build a MASSIVE universe (Or a very large test bed one) the 'need' for the 64 bit portion is overkill to a large degree. But thats the point (critics point) the cost of building that map and testing that map and trying to figure out stuff people have already wasted millions of dollars trying to do (and failed) isnt 'worth' it.
A lot of people have done the math, a lot of people have made progress, but none of them have been able to do it in the way Roberts wants to. Thats why some people say its 'impossible'. But the pro camp says 'just because you cant do it doesnt mean he cant' Thats as good as "I know you are but what am I". I am sure you can also google how many people have tried it and failed, and I am sure its not a small list. If it were worth it (or possible at all) it would have been done a long time ago.
I can respect the logical arguments you're putting together today! The real question here that needs to be answered is whether or not this is part of the MVP?
I totally understand your argument and I get what you mean about the pro camp saying it's possible.
HOWEVER!!!! The con camp is probably just as chaotic, but on the other side. I understand that they might feel like they're being logical, but the majority of the time they just sound ridiculous. It's the product of a generation who seems to want to take everything literally and not provide any flexibility, like the guy who sued Pepsi for a harrier jet. Unfortunately, I feel like the con camp is more interested in just carrying on ridiculous conversations about things like doors than actually discussing anything intelligent at all.
BOTH sides have extremes. Most of the guys you see here, 3 or 4 in particular on either side are the outliers I think. Unfortunately I seem to get lumped into the radical camp even though I have never gone completely off the reservation. Sure I have played Devils advocate and gave worst case (and they werent actually even worst worst case) scenarios.
I have said all along they will release SOMETHING, I just wasnt sure what that something was, and if when they eventually got around to releasing that something it was as modern and genre changing as it was when it was initially announced. Thats not even a star citizen thing but an MMO thing, thats why these indy companies rush stuff out the door now so it get on the market beforeit becomes compltely dated.
I remember everyone was playing Lotro and saying how awesome it was, then Age Of Conan comes around and people see how dated Lotro looked. Then when Rift released how awesome that game was, then they saw videos of Black Desert (yes that game was around THAT long ago) and they were the end all be all.
When all the new engines hit and they modifications of those engines hit the 'flash' part of the graphics improved greatly, overall they may have stayed the same but 'looks' wise they just seemed to ebe more appealing.
Then of course you have all the other 'little' things you can add. Cry engine does actually allow for a lot of the 'little' things unmodified or not, problem is to add the little things you first must have the game proper.
Thats why I rail on both sides for arguing stuff way before its time.
You know, I read one of their "refund denial" emails, and it said something to the effect of, "we can't just give money back because it's not just sitting in a bank somehwere".
Well, bullshit.
Do they have thousands of mattresses stuffed with cash? no... Do they have 50 kitchens full of rainy-day cookie jars? no... No one does that. No one has tens of millions of dollars and sits on it while it collects no interest/dividend. That is crazy. Further, there's no reasonto collect zero income on those funds. Very safe deposits, even if they did use a bank, with that kind of capitol, start at 3%.
Just to play devils advocate, maybe what they mean is they don't have that type of overhead to just give every single requester their money back? IE..most funds are allocated to a use, giving it back would hurt overall plans, as well as cause problems with maintaining stability of all that has been built thus far?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
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Also, " my " mentor? I am absolutely sure you can't articulate one point of how my understanding of this project differs from Derek Smart's. You really don't have business addressing me in such a way. There are points upon which he and I agree, and quite frankly, he's been more "correct" and insightful than you have. So, whatever. Keep talking.
As for correct and insightful, the facts speak for those listening. DS stated in all eight tones that 64bit in 3D space (maybe the most important thing for SC's scope) is impossible to achieve. CIG did it, not doing it, they did it.
Then he went on stating that he has solid info about CIG running out of money. How can a cash starved company be on the search for 30+ specialists as CR mentioned in one of his latest update videos, that mr. DS didn't bother to explain to us.
And let's not talk about the 16/4 mega event fiasco. Days prior he kept rambling on his blogs about the solid info he had. He provided us with a set date and when this whole thing bombed his response was to ban people asking about it.
Now he has set his sights on a new target. A door.
I know and watch this guy since his days in Alganon. He never was correct or insightful about anything.
I believe there's a large chunk of 40 mil or more, somewhere, upon which upper echelon draw interest/dividend. I think it's a protected nest egg, intended to be divided at such point the "way is clear" to cut and run with it. Also, there are physical properties in which backer money was invested, and those will fall to the owners of the inhabiting LLCs.
So, when you see people talk about the project needing funds, I think CIG only "needs" them, so they're not chipping off that mountain of cash in the center. That can be alot of income off 40 mil or more into someone's pocket, and no one's talking about it. I could get 8.5% off that, safely, myself. Professionals could get up to 25% with risks.
I think that's a big deal, but no one else seems to think about it. I've brought it up often, but there's little proof or evidence if you buy into the whole "they're broke, they spent it all" etc.
So there's your one point.
Well, bullshit.
Do they have thousands of mattresses stuffed with cash? no... Do they have 50 kitchens full of rainy-day cookie jars? no... No one does that. No one has tens of millions of dollars and sits on it while it collects no interest/dividend. That is crazy. Further, there's no reason to collect zero income on those funds. Very safe deposits, even if they did use a bank, with that kind of capitol, start at 3%.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
can't wait for Squadron 42, the point and click cinematic adventure.
"Oh, well, about a million people gave it to us to make a game, but we don't need it just yet so we're going to invest it instead" wouldn't fly.
What you are saying would be a very smart thing to do if Chris and Sandi won the lottery; however, this isn't lottery money: it's crowdfunding, something the FTC takes very seriously.
There may not be any evidence against what you are saying (hence my exhortations for financial clarity since day 1, "as if" CIG were/is a public company), I'm more inclined to believe a scenario that doesn't involve people going to jail if uncovered.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
This post in particular is interesting.
https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/5869443/#Comment_5869443
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Do you see it could also be possible this protected "nest egg" is meant to be used for the company to keep it going and work on SC to be able to be continued in the case other funds get low or incoming money drops dramatically?
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
All this would be public knowledge if CIG had opened their books from the beginning, like any public company. Some 'armchair accountants' may have even been able to them along the way with small, quarterly course corrections.
Perhaps I'm being naive, but it's easier for me to picture CIG's leadership just being somewhat superfluous / profligate under the star-struck-ness of earning a Guiness World Record than to imagine their inner circle taking a risk that, according to what I absorbed in Business Ethics (MBA 610), would likely amount to prison time if caught.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
The 'truth' is 64 isnt nor was 'impossible' even though people love to spin that that is what a certain person said. But here is the most relevant post in this speculation thread.
In computation you can store data in datatypes that are encoded with different numbers of "bits". 1 bit can encode 2 states, 2 bits 4, 8 bits 256 and so on. With 64 bit you can encode 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 different states.
For every variable you store you can define how many "bits" it will use. For example to store the health of your players you can easily get away with 8 bit (able to store from 0 to 255) if you know your players have Hitpoints in the range of max 100 to 150 HPs.
If you only want to store one state (e.g. a chest being open OR closed and nothing in between) you get away with 1 bit (0 for "closed", 1 for "open").
This has nothing at all to do at all with if your executable is running on 32 or 64 bit OS, the first only has an adress space of up to 4 GB RAM (due to the addresses for the RAM only being able to store positions in 32 bits).
Star Citizen's "move to 64 bit" is talking about the coordinates the map is stored in. In 32 bit you can adresses up to 8 km with a "decent resolution", this is sufficient for a shooter where you run around on foot or maybe drive a tank, this is laughable for "space", thus CIG needs to convert the absolute map coordinates to 64 bit. This basically means that all variables dealing with global coordinates had to get updated to 64 bit, as well as all code handling those.
The LOCAL map coordinates could still be 32 bit (unless CIG wants to build Super Star Destroyers larger than 8 km in each direction from coordinate 0).
The entire renderer for Star Citizen is also still probably still 32, including the coordinates for local cameras.
Yes it can be done (the math part anyway, they probably did that in a few months) but the implementation of it is the costly and time consuming part. Plus the gameworld/universe has to be huge. So in the end if this game ends up being a bunch of instances all over the place them wasting time doing the math and claiming they made a 64 bit game is just that, a waste of time. There is no need for 64 bit unless youre absolutely going to utilize the space 'correctly'. Which is something they havent figured out how to do yet.
Someone in this thread seemed to be think them going 64bit was dubious or not done, I did a quick google search, as I don't read every single thread about SC either as I am not a rabid white knight, and posted a link to the thread so he can see indeed it done/being worked on and then a second link to same thread to a post in particular that I found relevant.
It is relevant because people explains some of the confusion....is your post suppose to be some kind of dig towards me or are you just reiterating what I was getting at by posting these two links.
TBH the comments you have made so far about SC have me thinking your a hater jumping on anyone you seem to think is a rabid defender of CIG or Chris Roberts...I can assure you that I am neither a hater nor a disciple.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
As for explaining the confusion it actually deepens it. Because that was a speculation thread that is 6 months old and a few 'builds' ago. I think they said it would be in in 1.3 it wasnt, and it is now what 2.3? And it still isnt, the post I cut and pasted explained why.
Until they build a MASSIVE universe (Or a very large test bed one) the 'need' for the 64 bit portion is overkill to a large degree. But thats the point (critics point) the cost of building that map and testing that map and trying to figure out stuff people have already wasted millions of dollars trying to do (and failed) isnt 'worth' it.
A lot of people have done the math, a lot of people have made progress, but none of them have been able to do it in the way Roberts wants to. Thats why some people say its 'impossible'. But the pro camp says 'just because you cant do it doesnt mean he cant' Thats as good as "I know you are but what am I". I am sure you can also google how many people have tried it and failed, and I am sure its not a small list. If it were worth it (or possible at all) it would have been done a long time ago.
Look, if Chris and Sandi want to pay themselves seven figures per year, I'm actually fine with that (even though this "looks bad" for a startup); they can invest it in whatever they want, after payroll. If CIG wants to buy fancy doors and coffee machines, whatever, put it under the "plant" column (just don't come crying to me if they file chapter 7). However, if CIG has any sort of "nest egg" that is earning interest in offshore accounts, or locked up in risky 25% ROI endeavors, then I'm right there with Harrison Ford saying "I have a bad feeling about this".
It's been a couple years since I graduated, and I am not currently working for a Fortune 500 or anything, not a CPA, but there is something called the Capital Asset Pricing Model and whatever's left from my advanced education is screaming that the above ain't it.
I could be wrong; but without poring through my old textbooks or contacting my old profs let me just say that what @Asm0deus and @Adjuvant1 suggest sound great for personal finance but very wrong for corporate finance.
Maybe someone with more experience can back me up.
Edit: so, yeah, obviously companies invest in other companies all the time, but because this is crowdfunding money we're talking about, that makes it different. I'm really not sure how this would play out in court, but my gut tells me that using crowdfunding to invest in other companies is wrong; CIG isn't expected to pay out dividends for backer pledges, they are expected to make a game.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
I can respect the logical arguments you're putting together today! The real question here that needs to be answered is whether or not this is part of the MVP?
I totally understand your argument and I get what you mean about the pro camp saying it's possible.
HOWEVER!!!! The con camp is probably just as chaotic, but on the other side. I understand that they might feel like they're being logical, but the majority of the time they just sound ridiculous. It's the product of a generation who seems to want to take everything literally and not provide any flexibility, like the guy who sued Pepsi for a harrier jet. Unfortunately, I feel like the con camp is more interested in just carrying on ridiculous conversations about things like doors than actually discussing anything intelligent at all.
Crazkanuk
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I have said all along they will release SOMETHING, I just wasnt sure what that something was, and if when they eventually got around to releasing that something it was as modern and genre changing as it was when it was initially announced. Thats not even a star citizen thing but an MMO thing, thats why these indy companies rush stuff out the door now so it get on the market beforeit becomes compltely dated.
I remember everyone was playing Lotro and saying how awesome it was, then Age Of Conan comes around and people see how dated Lotro looked. Then when Rift released how awesome that game was, then they saw videos of Black Desert (yes that game was around THAT long ago) and they were the end all be all.
When all the new engines hit and they modifications of those engines hit the 'flash' part of the graphics improved greatly, overall they may have stayed the same but 'looks' wise they just seemed to ebe more appealing.
Then of course you have all the other 'little' things you can add. Cry engine does actually allow for a lot of the 'little' things unmodified or not, problem is to add the little things you first must have the game proper.
Thats why I rail on both sides for arguing stuff way before its time.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson