Not really because their scope is limited. What about a game where the mobs are not just mindless, but an orc tride has goals, an evil nation tries to expand, or game has to be carefully managed or it will be depleted. A world where there are more and better thought out dangers than some basement neckbeard wanting to gank a lowbie. You build an outpost in a distant land and mobs actually do not like it there and will attack it in organized ways and you will lose it if your group/guild/company does not defend it. Maybe one day that outpost is a city that the Evil Nation wants to destroy.
Basically a living strategy game in a MMORPG.
Keep the dream alive, brother.
If the AI biases against the trending "winning" team by helping the other two teams (shifting the balance of power slowly), a "politics of war" title could work.
But I'm not sure you can get the player mobility you need. The approach fails if they're screaming "Horde4Life!" and no thought is given to rebalancing the player populations whenever they become too skewed.
Players tend to fall in love with their favorite character models. Getting them to change teams isn't trivial. But if the freedom-of-choice selection is unbalanced, you need faction mobility.
Way TOO MANY Indie developers pretending they are actual triple A developers and again too many people buying these half ass products. Solution?There isn't one,there are only a handful of devs with enough money to pull it off and of those they are not willing to put out the effort.
Show me a non-indie-developed, currently available MMORPG with the features I just mentioned, the ones I really care about, please.
Otherwise, that's like saying buy something you don't like, because it's made by a bigger company and therefore good for you.
I'd really prefer to vote with my wallet for the community and features I'd like to see in the future.
I don't think he was saying buy or play a title because it waa made by a bigger company.
I think he meant since the larger houses aren't interested in MMORPGS and the indies won't have the funding for AAA production you should just save your money for now.
Fatalistic but accurate unless you are willing to make allowances and support indie games even though most will have to launch "half baked."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Way TOO MANY Indie developers pretending they are actual triple A developers and again too many people buying these half ass products. Solution?There isn't one,there are only a handful of devs with enough money to pull it off and of those they are not willing to put out the effort.
Show me a non-indie-developed, currently available MMORPG with the features I just mentioned, the ones I really care about, please.
Otherwise, that's like saying buy something you don't like, because it's made by a bigger company and therefore good for you.
I'd really prefer to vote with my wallet for the community and features I'd like to see in the future.
I don't think he was saying buy or play a title because it waa made by a bigger company.
I think he meant since the larger houses aren't interested in MMORPGS and the indies won't have the funding for AAA production you should just save your money for now.
Fatalistic but accurate unless you are willing to make allowances and support indie games even though most will have to launch "half baked."
True, but then the MMORPG scene really would be doomed.
I'm okay with a 'not everything is perfect' experience so long as it meets a certain standard and hits enough of the right notes.
I'm not looking for anything half-baked, but I don't want to rush in to a false dichotomy of 'it has to be AAA or you're better off not spending' mindset.
Were any of the original MMORPGs what we've come to call "AAA" to begin with?
To be frank, I'm not even sure what that term means, other than some arbitrary threshold one somewhat subjectively puts on production value. On this site, it seems to mean 'more or less launched within the last four years to much fanfare'.
What about longevity, and soulfulness? If those aren't in the picture, then I'll warrant the A, AA, AAA grade-designation isn't a very useful one.
e.g. SW:TOR; one of the highest budgets of any MMO. Does that make it a good game? Should I feel guilty about supporting a 'smaller house' because it does more of the things I want to see in a game, and didn't launch with a 100M budget?
People are too attached to money as it is. Seems easy to lose sight of the forest for all the trees.
/2c
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I agree you shouldn't feel guilty for supporting the smaller projects.
Those are the ones that have a chance at giving you the game you seek. Yes it may be somewhat smaller scope and polish than a mass market big budget monster, but that's just how it works if you are not in the mass market demographic.
Big budgets come with big downsides. A big budget game will not be able to provide niche oriented focussed gameplay. It will have to cast the net wide to have a decent chance at getting back the immense costs. That dictates what it can and can't do design-wise.
What about a game where the mobs are not just mindless, but an orc tride has goals, an evil nation tries to expand, or game has to be carefully managed or it will be depleted.
Basically a living strategy game in a MMORPG.
Just script it in a co-op game. We don't have the technologies to make real thinking NPCs yet.
Games do not need to be long to be fun. Games do not need to be "soulful" to be fun. May be you need that.
But plenty of players enjoy short, fun games that are made by devs who just want to make money, instead of "pouring their souls" into the game. How do you define "soulfulness" anyway?
I don't think he was saying buy or play a title because it waa made by a bigger company.
I think he meant since the larger houses aren't interested in MMORPGS and the indies won't have the funding for AAA production you should just save your money for now.
Fatalistic but accurate unless you are willing to make allowances and support indie games even though most will have to launch "half baked."
Probably. You don't have to have a huge budget to make a AAA game though, Guildwars for example was made on a very limited budget and it was certainly AAA.
Having a huge budget helps a lot, but it can't replace talent and with a good enough team you can make a AAA game with a very limited budget. The problem is finding talented people willing to work cheap, in GWs case it basically was because the lead designer and his 2 top programmers jumped off and started their own company chansing that it would earn them more then working for Blizzard would have (yeah, it did).
I am not sure any of the kickstarters/indies have that many talented people though, most of them have a single very talented person leading them (like Garriot, Jacobs & McQuid) so time will tell if that is enough or not. But it certainly is possible that one of them pulls of a AAA MMORPG even with a limited budget, it have happened before (and not just with GW but I used the example since I played it a lot myself).
MMORPG's were never THAT popular. The people that wanted to play them were the same types of people that enjoyed fantasy novels before LOTR became 'trendy' and before GOT made magic and death sexy.
The table top roleplayers gathered around a table on a Sunday afternoon while most people went to church or recovered from hangovers wanted to play MMORPG's when computers could create them well enough.
The computer geeks who wanted to write games by working out how to program through dedication and desire were the ones who made the game the same geeks wanted to play. Meanwhile most people were getting hooked on trying to look cool breakdancing or watching Big brother contestants wishing they could also have their 10 minutes of fame.
No, MMORPG's were never THAT popular. But hopefully now were can have a return to people who love the genre making games for other people who love the genre and let the rest of the world have their 10 minute fixes of flashy, souless carbon copies produced for the masses, to get as much cash as quickly as possible. Let the shallow, flashy people have their shallow, flashy games.
Good luck getting an AAA quality game with that sales pitch made.
I don't think MMORPG have developed far enough to be AAA quality.
Take an honest gaze at most MMORPG as just a game. They aren't as good as their single player counter parts nor take advantage of doing only what they can do.
The AAA deserves to go to games like the Division which are literally what MMORPG try to emulate with unnecessary MMORPG framework. That has been the target market. Right now MMORPG have to prove they can be profitable being MMORPG and not wasteful single player wantabes.
Personally, I've reached the conclusion that AAA developers (specifically the corporations behind such games) are killing the genre off.
Pinching pennies, sacrificing story for itemization gimmicks, the death of roleplay, the death of customer service and customer experience, strangulation of customer/developer interactions... these things all resulted from big-budget producers.
And what they make are games that look pretty but have forgotten everything about gaming except combat and cash shop.
"Massively"--everything that word implies is terrible for the genre. Bigger ain't better.
The AAA deserves to go to games like the Division which are literally what MMORPG try to emulate with unnecessary MMORPG framework. That has been the target market. Right now MMORPG have to prove they can be profitable being MMORPG and not wasteful single player wantabes.
Or devs can forget mmorpgs, and make games like The Division.
The AAA deserves to go to games like the Division which are literally what MMORPG try to emulate with unnecessary MMORPG framework. That has been the target market. Right now MMORPG have to prove they can be profitable being MMORPG and not wasteful single player wantabes.
Or devs can forget mmorpgs, and make games like The Division.
Hmmm. Fascinating and refreshing take on things. Great input.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I was just thinking about this today; I'm at a big work event, it's late, and I'm exhausted, but I will say this: soulfulness is one of my favorite terms, and I think what it means to me, and please don't take this the wrong way because it's a commonly misused and misunderstood phrase, is rewarding of player skill.
This can take many different shapes, but when you see an athlete or a musician perform something and make it look easy, even though it must have taken a lot of work to get to that point, that's what I mean.
It's not just so simple, though; does anyone really care if you're the world's best mouth-harp player (no offense to those that play mouth-harps)?
What I mean by "soulful" is the type of experience that one gets by effortlessly carving down a powder run on a mountain you know like the back of your hand, catching a wave that seems to last forever, or climbing a very high peak.
Perhaps it seems foolish to compare a video game to such things, however, 'mountains' in gameplay do exist; 'soulful' is the kind of experience that allows Roger Federers and Garry Kasporovs to emerge. In short, any sort of structure that supports genius.
Post edited by Phaserlight on
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
The AAA deserves to go to games like the Division which are literally what MMORPG try to emulate with unnecessary MMORPG framework. That has been the target market. Right now MMORPG have to prove they can be profitable being MMORPG and not wasteful single player wantabes.
Or devs can forget mmorpgs, and make games like The Division.
Hmmm. Fascinating and refreshing take on things. Great input.
But there is a point. We may gather on this site to offer wake to a play style that's already been replaced.
We're just the last guys in the arcade still shoveling quarters into Space Invaders.
"Don't worry, they'll make a comeback some day. No, Rly."
The AAA deserves to go to games like the Division which are literally what MMORPG try to emulate with unnecessary MMORPG framework. That has been the target market. Right now MMORPG have to prove they can be profitable being MMORPG and not wasteful single player wantabes.
Or devs can forget mmorpgs, and make games like The Division.
Hmmm. Fascinating and refreshing take on things. Great input.
But there is a point. We may gather on this site to offer wake to a play style that's already been replaced.
We're just the last guys in the arcade still shoveling quarters into Space Invaders.
"Don't worry, they'll make a comeback some day. No, Rly."
Geez I wish it was only quarters, spending considerably more than that on EVE each month.
The genre's glory days may be gone for good, but I think there will always be a few smaller titles that sucessfully carve out a niche and we'll be better off for it.
Let the masses run off to other genres, we never wanted them here in the first place.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The AAA deserves to go to games like the Division which are literally what MMORPG try to emulate with unnecessary MMORPG framework. That has been the target market. Right now MMORPG have to prove they can be profitable being MMORPG and not wasteful single player wantabes.
Or devs can forget mmorpgs, and make games like The Division.
Hmmm. Fascinating and refreshing take on things. Great input.
But there is a point. We may gather on this site to offer wake to a play style that's already been replaced.
We're just the last guys in the arcade still shoveling quarters into Space Invaders.
"Don't worry, they'll make a comeback some day. No, Rly."
who are "we"? I am pretty sure the playstyle I enjoy is still being supported by AAA companies. The Division is the latest example.
The AAA deserves to go to games like the Division which are literally what MMORPG try to emulate with unnecessary MMORPG framework. That has been the target market. Right now MMORPG have to prove they can be profitable being MMORPG and not wasteful single player wantabes.
Or devs can forget mmorpgs, and make games like The Division.
Hmmm. Fascinating and refreshing take on things. Great input.
But there is a point. We may gather on this site to offer wake to a play style that's already been replaced.
We're just the last guys in the arcade still shoveling quarters into Space Invaders.
"Don't worry, they'll make a comeback some day. No, Rly."
who are "we"? I am pretty sure the playstyle I enjoy is still being supported by AAA companies. The Division is the latest example.
lol.
You are most certainly not the "we" in question. That was established long, long ago.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
There used to be just a few MMORPGs... its gotten out of hand and now there is not enough people to keep them alive... an active subscription game had such better quality too.. now everything is f2p b2w b2p boo boo ba ba
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
There used to be just a few MMORPGs... its gotten out of hand and now there is not enough people to keep them alive... an active subscription game had such better quality too.. now everything is f2p b2w b2p boo boo ba ba
The only thing that changed is the greed of the companies running them.
Instead we need more games that explore PVE without adding in lame PvP that detracts from new avenues of PvE.
You don't need mmorpgs for that. ARPGs, single player RPGs, co-op RPGs can all do that as well, if not better than mmorpgs.
Not really because their scope is limited. What about a game where the mobs are not just mindless, but an orc tride has goals, an evil nation tries to expand, or game has to be carefully managed or it will be depleted. A world where there are more and better thought out dangers than some basement neckbeard wanting to gank a lowbie. You build an outpost in a distant land and mobs actually do not like it there and will attack it in organized ways and you will lose it if your group/guild/company does not defend it. Maybe one day that outpost is a city that the Evil Nation wants to destroy.
Basically a living strategy game in a MMORPG.
thats advanced coding, dynamic events in a mmorpg, that could potentially exist in the future , but i dont see it in the next few years, for now its grinders and dungeon queues, theres potential in open world sandbox since players impact the world ,but no good setup with stable servers/publisher exists to my knowing
I think there are good games or at lease good enough games. But that isn't what a ton of people are asking for around here. Some want an almost perfect game. Others seem to think game companies should be doing custom game coding just for them by adding all their little pet features.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I think there are good games or at lease good enough games. But that isn't what a ton of people are asking for around here. Some want an almost perfect game. Others seem to think game companies should be doing custom game coding just for them by adding all their little pet features.
we saw some old models, we saw some new(wildstar, gw2) , sometimes its instanced, sometimes open world, sometimes pve, sometimes pvp or both
many, many variations , and still ,becouse all people cant be happy with the same thing, you can have a stable game with longetivity, BUT
if there was a game with solid gameplay, open world pvpve ,sandbox ,dynamic events and real AAA content, im pretty sure that game could live for years solely from convenience sales and no p2w
its out of my wit ,why publishers embrace p2w in the first few months of the mmorpg's age ,and than they wonder why their servers end up empty
Comments
But I'm not sure you can get the player mobility you need. The approach fails if they're screaming "Horde4Life!" and no thought is given to rebalancing the player populations whenever they become too skewed.
Players tend to fall in love with their favorite character models. Getting them to change teams isn't trivial. But if the freedom-of-choice selection is unbalanced, you need faction mobility.
"I just can't play no pansy elf."
I think he meant since the larger houses aren't interested in MMORPGS and the indies won't have the funding for AAA production you should just save your money for now.
Fatalistic but accurate unless you are willing to make allowances and support indie games even though most will have to launch "half baked."
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm okay with a 'not everything is perfect' experience so long as it meets a certain standard and hits enough of the right notes.
I'm not looking for anything half-baked, but I don't want to rush in to a false dichotomy of 'it has to be AAA or you're better off not spending' mindset.
Were any of the original MMORPGs what we've come to call "AAA" to begin with?
To be frank, I'm not even sure what that term means, other than some arbitrary threshold one somewhat subjectively puts on production value. On this site, it seems to mean 'more or less launched within the last four years to much fanfare'.
What about longevity, and soulfulness? If those aren't in the picture, then I'll warrant the A, AA, AAA grade-designation isn't a very useful one.
e.g. SW:TOR; one of the highest budgets of any MMO. Does that make it a good game? Should I feel guilty about supporting a 'smaller house' because it does more of the things I want to see in a game, and didn't launch with a 100M budget?
People are too attached to money as it is. Seems easy to lose sight of the forest for all the trees.
/2c
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Those are the ones that have a chance at giving you the game you seek.
Yes it may be somewhat smaller scope and polish than a mass market big budget monster, but that's just how it works if you are not in the mass market demographic.
Big budgets come with big downsides.
A big budget game will not be able to provide niche oriented focussed gameplay.
It will have to cast the net wide to have a decent chance at getting back the immense costs. That dictates what it can and can't do design-wise.
But about them?
Games do not need to be long to be fun. Games do not need to be "soulful" to be fun. May be you need that.
But plenty of players enjoy short, fun games that are made by devs who just want to make money, instead of "pouring their souls" into the game. How do you define "soulfulness" anyway?
Having a huge budget helps a lot, but it can't replace talent and with a good enough team you can make a AAA game with a very limited budget. The problem is finding talented people willing to work cheap, in GWs case it basically was because the lead designer and his 2 top programmers jumped off and started their own company chansing that it would earn them more then working for Blizzard would have (yeah, it did).
I am not sure any of the kickstarters/indies have that many talented people though, most of them have a single very talented person leading them (like Garriot, Jacobs & McQuid) so time will tell if that is enough or not. But it certainly is possible that one of them pulls of a AAA MMORPG even with a limited budget, it have happened before (and not just with GW but I used the example since I played it a lot myself).
The AAA deserves to go to games like the Division which are literally what MMORPG try to emulate with unnecessary MMORPG framework. That has been the target market. Right now MMORPG have to prove they can be profitable being MMORPG and not wasteful single player wantabes.
Pinching pennies, sacrificing story for itemization gimmicks, the death of roleplay, the death of customer service and customer experience, strangulation of customer/developer interactions... these things all resulted from big-budget producers.
And what they make are games that look pretty but have forgotten everything about gaming except combat and cash shop.
"Massively"--everything that word implies is terrible for the genre. Bigger ain't better.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
This can take many different shapes, but when you see an athlete or a musician perform something and make it look easy, even though it must have taken a lot of work to get to that point, that's what I mean.
It's not just so simple, though; does anyone really care if you're the world's best mouth-harp player (no offense to those that play mouth-harps)?
What I mean by "soulful" is the type of experience that one gets by effortlessly carving down a powder run on a mountain you know like the back of your hand, catching a wave that seems to last forever, or climbing a very high peak.
Perhaps it seems foolish to compare a video game to such things, however, 'mountains' in gameplay do exist; 'soulful' is the kind of experience that allows Roger Federers and Garry Kasporovs to emerge. In short, any sort of structure that supports genius.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
We're just the last guys in the arcade still shoveling quarters into Space Invaders.
"Don't worry, they'll make a comeback some day. No, Rly."
The genre's glory days may be gone for good, but I think there will always be a few smaller titles that sucessfully carve out a niche and we'll be better off for it.
Let the masses run off to other genres, we never wanted them here in the first place.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
who are "we"? I am pretty sure the playstyle I enjoy is still being supported by AAA companies. The Division is the latest example.
You are most certainly not the "we" in question. That was established long, long ago.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
many, many variations , and still ,becouse all people cant be happy with the same thing, you can have a stable game with longetivity, BUT
if there was a game with solid gameplay, open world pvpve ,sandbox ,dynamic events and real AAA content, im pretty sure that game could live for years solely from convenience sales and no p2w
its out of my wit ,why publishers embrace p2w in the first few months of the mmorpg's age ,and than they wonder why their servers end up empty