It's just not a genre that can draw in players like it used to.
Everything is online now, everything is multiplayer, everything is twitch this or e-sports that...
Traditional MMO gameplay is just to boring for today's fast paced audience.
Thankfully it's a great time for RPGs, action games, shooters, strategy, moba... lots to play, lots to love, but yeah - no major AAA mmo's coming out every few months like we had in 2003-2013 or so.
You just have to make so many sacrifices to make an MMO, the impact on gameplay and story and everything else is just too much.
Maybe the technology will catch up and we'll be able to get a true MMO with the amazing story of Witcher and the tactical/visceral gameplay of Dark Souls with the production value and scale/scope of Uncharted...
The genre is dead when all the publishers decide to stop updating these games and shut them down, doesn't look like that's happening to me. Wow is getting a new expansion and pretty much every one of the 50+ mmo titles running has development teams working on them to add new content.
I agree, the MMORPG is a dying or even dead genre. The MMO, however, is alive and kicking due to p2w cash shops and mind numbing amount of people willing to play the trash that comes out today.
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
The genre is dead when all the publishers decide to stop updating these games and shut them down, doesn't look like that's happening to me. Wow is getting a new expansion and pretty much every one of the 50+ mmo titles running has development teams working on them to add new content.
Yes, developers are updating games, however, these games are in decline and they are not making new ones. There is writing on the wall. When the OP uses the term, "dead/death" it's figurative and used in proper context to say there is a major problem that does not look good for the forseeable future. Anyone who thinks that not having any studios developing any MMORPG isn't a big deal has their head in the sand. Using semantics and pointing out 100 examples of "Shitty-Game (still) Online" to deflect the point doesn't change the fact that we probably won't be seeing a decent MMORPG worth spending much time in any time soon.
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Oh yeah show us your anger and hostility show us how emotional you get over video games yes let that anger over video games out you go man.
See the the difference is I am intelligent enough to know the Developers indie and big are here to make money. I am also intelligent enough to make my own decisions on what I spend my money on. I am also mature enough where I will never get emotionally involved in video games like you clearly are...so yes you put that all together I'm clearly far superior then those who act like you.
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Calm down....
What about folks like myself who experienced both, can enjoy both old and new and have accepted shit in life changes? I can tell you one thing, it's better than being bitter and getting this angry over the topic.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Calm down....
What about folks like myself who experienced both, can enjoy both old and new and have accepted shit in life changes? I can tell you one thing, it's better than being bitter and getting this angry over the topic.
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Calm down....
What about folks like myself who experienced both, can enjoy both old and new and have accepted shit in life changes? I can tell you one thing, it's better than being bitter and getting this angry over the topic.
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
FYI a lot of people didnt enjoy SWG and in no way look at SWG other than a failed mmorpg...
The genre isn't dead, but rather the passion and creativity required to design good games. Once MMO's became a popular business model and creation shifted from passionate developers to men in suits, that is what caused this genre to go into the toilet.
As much as it sucks and I've said it before, crowdfunded games are the only way to get the genre / market back on track with MMO's that make sense for gamers, not for CEO's to line their pockets.
A CEO that actually got that fun games earn more money in the long term then a short money grab would work as well. The real problem is that the larger companies think short term and want a quick profit, MMOs take long time to make and while they have a huge potential for earnings that usually takes time.
A good MMO takes 5 years to make and earn money for twice that time and it seems that most CEOs think they will have moved on to something else before the game even released. Also, MMOs can't really be just pasted and copeid of another successful game, when you have finnished the game he ideas you copied are old and the original game have 2 expansions out. That works with ordinary games which usually takes a year to get out.
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
SWG? I don't miss it because I still play it when I get an itch heh (it helps that my old server runs their own EMU).. That's a good question though, my desire for something more along those lines remains. I just gave up on any expectation of it happening long ago. Even with proposed concepts like COE, SC etc... that hasn't changed. When those titles look more like actual games and less like attempts, that will change.
In the end for me it's about living in the now, enjoying what I can from what's available. That helps keep the bitterness at bay.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
FYI a lot of people didnt enjoy SWG and in no way look at SWG other than a failed mmorpg...
Heh, I'm not one of those people... Failed or not I really liked SWG
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
FYI a lot of people didnt enjoy SWG and in no way look at SWG other than a failed mmorpg...
Heh, I'm not one of those people... Failed or not I really liked SWG
That's fine My point was a lot of these old bitter vets always refer to SWG as the shining example of what mmorpgs should be today. When the truth is thats clearly not what the majority of players want today and a lot of people just didn't care for SWG that's partly why it's not around today other then the emulator.
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
FYI a lot of people didnt enjoy SWG and in no way look at SWG other than a failed mmorpg...
Heh, I'm not one of those people... Failed or not I really liked SWG
That's fine My point was a lot of these old bitter vets always refer to SWG as the shining example of what mmorpgs should be today. When the truth is thats clearly not what the majority of players want today and a lot of people just didn't care for SWG that's partly why it's not around today other then the emulator.
That is certainly true.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Calm down....
What about folks like myself who experienced both, can enjoy both old and new and have accepted shit in life changes? I can tell you one thing, it's better than being bitter and getting this angry over the topic.
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
FYI a lot of people didnt enjoy SWG and in no way look at SWG other than a failed mmorpg...
The question was directed @Distopia because I know he played that game specifically. It was a tailored example not meant for anyone else.
Its just dead for big name game companies. They don't want to waste time or money in genre where the player's are not loyal anymore. To many mmo's to chose from now. Most players play a mmo for just a couple of months and move on to the next one. Look at B&S that game was a big thing and now you hardly hear anyone talk about it. Same thing will happen to BDO.
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Calm down....
What about folks like myself who experienced both, can enjoy both old and new and have accepted shit in life changes? I can tell you one thing, it's better than being bitter and getting this angry over the topic.
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
FYI a lot of people didnt enjoy SWG and in no way look at SWG other than a failed mmorpg...
The question was directed @Distopia because I know he played that game specifically. It was a tailored example not meant for anyone else.
If you get angry when people reply to something that was "tailored" for only one person I suggested you use the PM feature.
That's fine My point was a lot of these old bitter vets always refer to SWG as the shining example of what mmorpgs should be today. When the truth is thats clearly not what the majority of players want today and a lot of people just didn't care for SWG that's partly why it's not around today other then the emulator.
SWG did have some good ideas and while I don't think there should be a new game just like it made someone could be inspired by it's crafting, resource management and it's player owned stores and establishments.
There have been a lot of interesting mechanics in MMOs that just died out and some of those are worth a look to inspire new games, not to copy and paste them but to evolve things in a different way.
The problem with MMOs now is that almost all of them more or less play the exact same way and that isn't healthy for a genre, the players have been tiring of it and more and more people are moving to other types of games, be that Mobas (PvP fans), single player games like Witcher 3 (roleplaying fans), Diablo styled games (dungeon lovers) and so on. It is kinda like a pub that only serves Budweisser (or to be more exact that all pubs in your town only serves that).
Just remaking 15 years old games wont work, their time have passed but neither does remaking the same newer game either long term. There is of course many people who do enjoy the current MMO mechanics but there are way too many games doing the exact same thing so new games doing that have little chanse of being successful.
I used to love video games, but it all changed when I played a game called MUD. Simply a text game it had no finesse other games of that era had. But playing in a world populated by real people - it was clear to me even than : this is the future of video games, a higher state altogether. It is pointless for video games to go anywhere else.
And for long time they did. EQ , DAOC, UO ... than came WoW blew the lid off these games and opened it to the world. And everyone knew this is the way to go.
Games were made by top companies, books were written like "ready player one" - the sky was the limit.
But it failed. No need to go into details why. We all know it did.
What interest me is now.
What was once a pinnacle of gaming perfection and future of gaming. Today no professional game company want to touch. Heck even the company that made trillions on their MMO (Blizzard) stepped out of the game and started making casual products.
Instead of AAA company like Naughty Dog or CD Project Red pushing the technological envelope to MMO, we are left with handfull of "Indie" companies making MMOs
With low budgets , none of the resources or manpower of big companies - best they can make is mini-mmo , rehash of old formula ... or fail
Bottom line, even if those indie kickstarter funded games get released, which not all of them will. It will be far cry from what a healthy genre growth should have been.
They will most likely be the last to attempt it too.
And MMO will simply disappear as Point and Click adventures , RTS strategies etc did. Maybe to be unburied years after as nostalgia novelty for another round of kickstarters.
what i find amusing is i remember lots and lots of people here on the mmorpg.com forums claim that they want AAA MMO games to fail so we stop getting these themepark style games, to allow indie developers to come up with new ideas.
The genre isn't dead, but rather the passion and creativity required to design good games. Once MMO's became a popular business model and creation shifted from passionate developers to men in suits, that is what caused this genre to go into the toilet.
As much as it sucks and I've said it before, crowdfunded games are the only way to get the genre / market back on track with MMO's that make sense for gamers, not for CEO's to line their pockets.
what you describe is EXACTLY where the genre is right now. only indie developers are developing any mmo's right now and where is this new found creativity or good games being developed? i'm not seeing it.
SWG did have some good ideas and while I don't think there should be a new game just like it made someone could be inspired by it's crafting, resource management and it's player owned stores and establishments.
There have been a lot of interesting mechanics in MMOs that just died out and some of those are worth a look to inspire new games, not to copy and paste them but to evolve things in a different way.
The problem with MMOs now is that almost all of them more or less play the exact same way and that isn't healthy for a genre, the players have been tiring of it and more and more people are moving to other types of games, be that Mobas (PvP fans), single player games like Witcher 3 (roleplaying fans), Diablo styled games (dungeon lovers) and so on. It is kinda like a pub that only serves Budweisser (or to be more exact that all pubs in your town only serves that).
Just remaking 15 years old games wont work, their time have passed but neither does remaking the same newer game either long term. There is of course many people who do enjoy the current MMO mechanics but there are way too many games doing the exact same thing so new games doing that have little chanse of being successful.
I agree that there are plenty of features to lift from older titles, it's just a matter of using them in the right ways, as you can't just jerry-rig a lot of that into a game and call it a day. The game has to be built around those features for them to work.
I'm not going to pretend to know what people are doing, where they're going, how they approach games and what they prefer. I can just say what I do. As far as MMORPGs are concerned I play three. ESO, SWG(Emu) and SWTOR. Have done so on and off since they released. I play single player games in my downtime from those titles. I don't leave them for them.
When I want quick action I load up Chiv or M&B, when I want a slower burn i load up an RTS. IMO there's no reason to abandon one for the other. The only game I've really left was AOC as the player-base all but died off sadly, if that weren't the case, I'd still play that as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Wrong the old school bitter mmo vet is a dying breed. Truthfully I think that is a good thing. You guys have been left in the dust the fact today we have more people playing mmos then ever before and the fact we have more mmos to choose from then ever before pretty much destroy your doom and gloom rant...my advice to you OP is move on this isn't a battle (well you are fighting alone as developers clearly could care less about those like you) you can win...facts just aren't on your side.
What facts are those? That gamers like you actually like this crap they try to call MMORPG's today? The fact is you have no clue what a true MMORPG is all about and what makes it great. We "old school bitter vets" are bitter. Because we had a genre we enjoyed, it was niche, but it was ours. Now devs cater to the masses of people like you willing to take some cheap experience you will play here and there and move on. Probably spend hundreds of dollars in the cash shop while you are at it. They love you and yours, which is why they will continue to put out this Asian MMO cash grab crap until you get bored and move on to some other genre.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
Calm down....
What about folks like myself who experienced both, can enjoy both old and new and have accepted shit in life changes? I can tell you one thing, it's better than being bitter and getting this angry over the topic.
Maintaining your outlook is great. You have shown your patience and acceptance of change for quite some time now. But I just want to ask.......Do you miss games like SWG or has your adaptation to the "new" taken away the desire to play in such a virtual world?
FYI a lot of people didnt enjoy SWG and in no way look at SWG other than a failed mmorpg...
The question was directed @Distopia because I know he played that game specifically. It was a tailored example not meant for anyone else.
If you get angry when people reply to something that was "tailored" for only one person I suggested you use the PM feature.
I am extremely thankful you are here to make such suggestions.
Comments
Everything is online now, everything is multiplayer, everything is twitch this or e-sports that...
Traditional MMO gameplay is just to boring for today's fast paced audience.
Thankfully it's a great time for RPGs, action games, shooters, strategy, moba... lots to play, lots to love, but yeah - no major AAA mmo's coming out every few months like we had in 2003-2013 or so.
You just have to make so many sacrifices to make an MMO, the impact on gameplay and story and everything else is just too much.
Maybe the technology will catch up and we'll be able to get a true MMO with the amazing story of Witcher and the tactical/visceral gameplay of Dark Souls with the production value and scale/scope of Uncharted...
... but I doubt it.
You are right, developers don't care about us, but do you think they care about you? You are a big fat money sack with bones to them, nothing more. They hear $$$$$cha-ching$$$$$ when they see you coming. So spare me the condescending remarks about us as if you are somehow the superior one here.
See the the difference is I am intelligent enough to know the Developers indie and big are here to make money. I am also intelligent enough to make my own decisions on what I spend my money on. I am also mature enough where I will never get emotionally involved in video games like you clearly are...so yes you put that all together I'm clearly far superior then those who act like you.
What about folks like myself who experienced both, can enjoy both old and new and have accepted shit in life changes? I can tell you one thing, it's better than being bitter and getting this angry over the topic.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A good MMO takes 5 years to make and earn money for twice that time and it seems that most CEOs think they will have moved on to something else before the game even released. Also, MMOs can't really be just pasted and copeid of another successful game, when you have finnished the game he ideas you copied are old and the original game have 2 expansions out. That works with ordinary games which usually takes a year to get out.
In the end for me it's about living in the now, enjoying what I can from what's available. That helps keep the bitterness at bay.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Why is it that, as a culture, we are more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands? ~Ernest Gaines
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There have been a lot of interesting mechanics in MMOs that just died out and some of those are worth a look to inspire new games, not to copy and paste them but to evolve things in a different way.
The problem with MMOs now is that almost all of them more or less play the exact same way and that isn't healthy for a genre, the players have been tiring of it and more and more people are moving to other types of games, be that Mobas (PvP fans), single player games like Witcher 3 (roleplaying fans), Diablo styled games (dungeon lovers) and so on. It is kinda like a pub that only serves Budweisser (or to be more exact that all pubs in your town only serves that).
Just remaking 15 years old games wont work, their time have passed but neither does remaking the same newer game either long term. There is of course many people who do enjoy the current MMO mechanics but there are way too many games doing the exact same thing so new games doing that have little chanse of being successful.
welp, you guys got your wish....
I'm not going to pretend to know what people are doing, where they're going, how they approach games and what they prefer. I can just say what I do. As far as MMORPGs are concerned I play three. ESO, SWG(Emu) and SWTOR. Have done so on and off since they released. I play single player games in my downtime from those titles. I don't leave them for them.
When I want quick action I load up Chiv or M&B, when I want a slower burn i load up an RTS. IMO there's no reason to abandon one for the other. The only game I've really left was AOC as the player-base all but died off sadly, if that weren't the case, I'd still play that as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson