Everyone has their own definition, and clearly people do not agree.
No one because there is no central authority, nor consensus.
Which is why the OP asked for our personal definitions of something that is undefineable largely because there's nothing really to win in the first place.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
As I play casually there is always someone who played more and is 5 levels ahead of me ganking and taking my stuff.
What do I care whether he gained his experience advantage by paying for it or playing more for it.
Clearly you don't. Otherwise, you would not be playing a p2w pvp heavy game.
But others may feel that it is not "fair", or that they feel that gaming is "polluted". Now I really don't share this concern because i mainly pve solo. But hey, do you deny others can feel about p2w differently from you, and see it as a huge negative?
No, I've fully accepted other people are incorrect in their viewpoints.
You clearly are out of the norm of "p2w hating" here. How can you be sure you are not the one who is "incorrect". In fact, how can a preference be correct or incorrect?
So you like (or have no problem with) a p2w game. Others do. What is so incorrect about either viewpoint?
Well as we both know, I'm clearly not "normal" by most any definition.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Time is not pay to win. That is play to win. I don't think most people have a problem with people playing the game to be better.
I can see where people compare having time to having money but its not the same. Games are meant to be played and they're just doing what the game is designed more than you. Paying for outside advantages means you are skipping gameplay for bucks.
Time is not pay to win. That is play to win. I don't think most people have a problem with people playing the game to be better.
I can see where people compare having time to having money but its not the same. Games are meant to be played and they're just doing what the game is designed more than you. Paying for outside advantages means you are skipping gameplay for bucks.
I agree 100%. But I think most games are now designed more towards raking in the cash than actually playing them.
all games have some P2W points. the problem starts when that became over the 40% for the ingame items, doesn't matter if are weapons or armors or for appearance or for the collection items. All items are P2W if you can buy it with real money
fan of SWG, XCOM, Defiance, Global Agenda, Need For Speed, all Star Wars single player games. And waiting the darn STAR CITIZEN
Selling any kind of items that have stats and affect character perfomance in any way is P2W in my book. Whether you can also grind for it or not doesnt matter.
Time is not pay to win. That is play to win. I don't think most people have a problem with people playing the game to be better.
I can see where people compare having time to having money but its not the same. Games are meant to be played and they're just doing what the game is designed more than you. Paying for outside advantages means you are skipping gameplay for bucks.
Actually as a time limited player I've always chafed at game designs that strongly favored those with far more free time than I.
One reason I stick with EVE is it allows me to progress at the same rate as everyone else and even focus on multiple areas of the game by spending reasonable amounts of more money.
However I never anticipated the model where whales are encouraged and sometimes strongly rewarded for spending very large sums of money to the detriment of those who spend much less.
There's a happy middle somewhere which of course varies from player to player as evidenced so often in threads like this.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One reason I stick with EVE is it allows me to progress at the same rate as everyone else and even focus on multiple areas of the game by spending reasonable amounts of more money.
Clearly you are not progressing the same rate as the big whales who buy a lot of skill points.
The thing was, an MMO wasn't supposed to be a game you could 'Win'. In a PvE environment who gives a shit if the other guy is the best of the best of the best?Especially in the instanced game worlds we have now.
If someone wants to pay $500 to burn the game he just paid $120 for, in 2 weeks is that pay to win? Sounds kind of dumb to me. If I can spend $50 and get 1400 hrs of play time out of a game, I'd call that a pretty good deal.
PvP is a bit different but if that is something you are concerned with, use private session games because the anxiety and paranoia is going to kill the enjoyment either way.
One reason I stick with EVE is it allows me to progress at the same rate as everyone else and even focus on multiple areas of the game by spending reasonable amounts of more money.
Clearly you are not progressing the same rate as the big whales who buy a lot of skill points.
They are such an extreme exception their actions have no bearing on my game play.
Also at this point in my EVE career I've got maximum level of skills in many areas where no one is or can be better than me.
True, I can't do industry and they could, but I dont care to do that so no worries.
EVE's a strange beast, success comes not so much from the skills you have, but how well you put them to good use.
For example I have near perfect combat ship skills across many hulls but my won loss ratio on the killboards certainly doesn't reflect any PVP accomplishment.
However the ISK in my wallet clearly reflects what I do well at.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
One reason I stick with EVE is it allows me to progress at the same rate as everyone else and even focus on multiple areas of the game by spending reasonable amounts of more money.
Clearly you are not progressing the same rate as the big whales who buy a lot of skill points.
They are such an extreme exception their actions have no bearing on my game play.
Also at this point in my EVE career I've got maximum level of skills in many areas where no one is or can be better than me.
True, I can't do industry and they could, but I dont care to do that so no worries.
EVE's a strange beast, success comes not so much from the skills you have, but how well you put them to good use.
For example I have near perfect combat ship skills across many hulls but my won loss ratio on the killboards certainly doesn't reflect any PVP accomplishment.
However the ISK in my wallet clearly reflects what I do well at.
Maybe you just need to hire someone to play for you who is better at PvP
One reason I stick with EVE is it allows me to progress at the same rate as everyone else and even focus on multiple areas of the game by spending reasonable amounts of more money.
Clearly you are not progressing the same rate as the big whales who buy a lot of skill points.
They are such an extreme exception their actions have no bearing on my game play.
No one says they do.
I am merely pointing out that your statement, and i quote, "One reason I stick with EVE is it allows me to progress at the same rate as everyone else" .. is factually wrong.
You do not progress at the same rate as everyone else .. namely the whales. Do you disagree? You did NOT argue whether they impact your gameplay. You only claim that you progress "at the same rate as everyone else", which is, again, not true.
I guess you have one fewer reasons to stick with Eve.
If you can spend $1,000 and have gear that other people cannot have for months or maybe years, that is pay to win. If you have a gambling system like Neverwinter does with the keys to open up chest where anything can be in the chest and its a roll of the dice if you get something or nothing that is pay to win.
The problem is people dont want to spend $15 a month now. But if MMOs dropped the sub from $15 to $5 and just increase the box price things might be better and cash shops wouldnt be P2W.
If you can spend $1,000 and have gear that other people cannot have for months or maybe years, that is pay to win. If you have a gambling system like Neverwinter does with the keys to open up chest where anything can be in the chest and its a roll of the dice if you get something or nothing that is pay to win.
The problem is people dont want to spend $15 a month now. But if MMOs dropped the sub from $15 to $5 and just increase the box price things might be better and cash shops wouldnt be P2W.
That last bit is actually not a bad idea! However, I think the problem is multi-faceted. Low subs is something that developers see as a symptom of a finite number of people willing to pay for subs. If you decreased the price, you could justify more people playing more games, hence more room for more than a couple sub games on the market.
HOWEVER!!! That doesn't solve the problem. We're seeing even with WoW that they are offering cash shop items. Reason being, people with money will pay for exclusivity. Prime example is the VIP Black app. Same as $10k crowdfunding tiers. etc., etc.
Now! Even if we were to completely remove cash shops from the game, there would still be a matter of black markets. This is where these players "lived" before. In fact, the reason they are still around is because of these people, because games are NOT P2W in general. So in order to get BiS gear, you need to buy it through the black market. Unfortunately, this is a problem that cannot be solved by publishers short of offering BiS gear themselves and then jacking the price so low that it's retarded to not buy it. All done! Games ruined! Lol.
All told, I still like your idea and I wish that more people would adopt it. I personally have a single-sub rule. I always maintain one, but rarely maintain 2. Not that I'm representative of the whole market, but I'm a segment
As I see it, using real money to get a combat advatage is pay2win.
The item you can't loose can be that, depends on the mechanics. If it is a buff you bind to something you already gotten in the game it isn't, if on the other hand it is an item with good stats it is.
Extra storage, character slots, comsetic items and anything that doesn't affect combat is not pay2win, you don't win for having more bankspace.
pretty much this.
these devs can still make money without adding p2w items, even though i hate them the RDM boxes with cosmetic items only are acceptable because it's totally optional and doesn't give you a competitive advantage.
this is why i fully support B2P cash shops but not F2P, but it does depend on the game.
This only work in games were you have competition. If i can buy better weapon/armor or buy chest/item to upgrade faster it is p2w. If i can buy stamina to craft/farm more then other it is p2w.
if there is no competition, no one fight or trade or sell on auction then there is no p2w
Paying to make winning require less skill makes something pay to win.
Winning implies there's a challenge.
The challenges in MMORPGs are mostly combat related, like winning fights against monsters or players.
Therefore it IS pay to win if I can buy a Longsword +5 which cannot be gained in-game normally, because that makes winning those fights easier.
And it ISN'T pay to win if I buy a fancy looking hat that has no stat advantage over regular looted gear.
And it ISN'T pay to win if I bought XP potions to rapidly progress to the level where I fought those fights. (Earning XP isn't the challenge, only the fights themselves have challenges.) But if this causes you to skip past content intended to be a skill challenge, then it can be pay to win (but be honest: when has earning XP ever been a challenge? It's always just been a matter of time, even in games that had XP penalties (because in those games you'd just fight easier mobs and avoid the penalties, and it was just more tedious than anything...which of course is why the mechanic doesn't exist anymore.))
Just because combat challenges are the most common form of skill-check doesn't mean you can't have pay2win elsewhere though. Crafting in EQ2 required a little skill, and if they sold items that made it take less player skill to avoid failing at crafting (or less player skill to produce better results) then that would be a form of pay2win too (though relatively minor, given that crafting wasn't exactly a huge part of the game and crafting didn't seem like it required all that much skill -- though maybe that changed at higher tiers of crafting?)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anything you add to your character (even cosmetic or temporary) is an advantage in terms of building your character. Getting to the end game and beating all the content or beating everyone in PvP is not the only goal in an MMORPG. If that were the case people wouldn't buy cosmetic items.
Time may be an unfair advantage to some, but it is a fairer way to play the game. Basically in a time based game you get what you put into it. Putting in a lot of hours is a big sacrifice in other areas of your life. It also takes a lot out of you to play that much. I know because it was very draining on me when I played UO and EQ a lot when I was young. The big point in a subscription is that everyone has to invest the same amount of time and earn the items they get. That is a huge difference IMO.
Cosmetics are arguably advantages.
Cosmetics definitely are not winning.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The problem is people dont want to spend $15 a month now. But if MMOs dropped the sub from $15 to $5 and just increase the box price things might be better and cash shops wouldnt be P2W.
why would they do that? Obviously have some whales spending hundreds or thousands per month is better than charging those who are willing to pay even $5 per month.
Everybody should pay the same amount to access the game and get the same amount of benefits. As opposed to get free access to the game and pay to progress faster. 10 hours should equal 10 hours not 1 hour and buy the other 9 hours.
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I can see where people compare having time to having money but its not the same. Games are meant to be played and they're just doing what the game is designed more than you. Paying for outside advantages means you are skipping gameplay for bucks.
VG
All items are P2W if you can buy it with real money
One reason I stick with EVE is it allows me to progress at the same rate as everyone else and even focus on multiple areas of the game by spending reasonable amounts of more money.
However I never anticipated the model where whales are encouraged and sometimes strongly rewarded for spending very large sums of money to the detriment of those who spend much less.
There's a happy middle somewhere which of course varies from player to player as evidenced so often in threads like this.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If someone wants to pay $500 to burn the game he just paid $120 for, in 2 weeks is that pay to win? Sounds kind of dumb to me. If I can spend $50 and get 1400 hrs of play time out of a game, I'd call that a pretty good deal.
PvP is a bit different but if that is something you are concerned with, use private session games because the anxiety and paranoia is going to kill the enjoyment either way.
Also at this point in my EVE career I've got maximum level of skills in many areas where no one is or can be better than me.
True, I can't do industry and they could, but I dont care to do that so no worries.
EVE's a strange beast, success comes not so much from the skills you have, but how well you put them to good use.
For example I have near perfect combat ship skills across many hulls but my won loss ratio on the killboards certainly doesn't reflect any PVP accomplishment.
However the ISK in my wallet clearly reflects what I do well at.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe you just need to hire someone to play for you who is better at PvP
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I am merely pointing out that your statement, and i quote, "One reason I stick with EVE is it allows me to progress at the same rate as everyone else" .. is factually wrong.
You do not progress at the same rate as everyone else .. namely the whales. Do you disagree? You did NOT argue whether they impact your gameplay. You only claim that you progress "at the same rate as everyone else", which is, again, not true.
I guess you have one fewer reasons to stick with Eve.
The problem is people dont want to spend $15 a month now. But if MMOs dropped the sub from $15 to $5 and just increase the box price things might be better and cash shops wouldnt be P2W.
That last bit is actually not a bad idea! However, I think the problem is multi-faceted. Low subs is something that developers see as a symptom of a finite number of people willing to pay for subs. If you decreased the price, you could justify more people playing more games, hence more room for more than a couple sub games on the market.
HOWEVER!!! That doesn't solve the problem. We're seeing even with WoW that they are offering cash shop items. Reason being, people with money will pay for exclusivity. Prime example is the VIP Black app. Same as $10k crowdfunding tiers. etc., etc.
Now! Even if we were to completely remove cash shops from the game, there would still be a matter of black markets. This is where these players "lived" before. In fact, the reason they are still around is because of these people, because games are NOT P2W in general. So in order to get BiS gear, you need to buy it through the black market. Unfortunately, this is a problem that cannot be solved by publishers short of offering BiS gear themselves and then jacking the price so low that it's retarded to not buy it. All done! Games ruined! Lol.
All told, I still like your idea and I wish that more people would adopt it. I personally have a single-sub rule. I always maintain one, but rarely maintain 2. Not that I'm representative of the whole market, but I'm a segment
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
these devs can still make money without adding p2w items, even though i hate them the RDM boxes with cosmetic items only are acceptable because it's totally optional and doesn't give you a competitive advantage.
this is why i fully support B2P cash shops but not F2P, but it does depend on the game.
if there is no competition, no one fight or trade or sell on auction then there is no p2w
Paying to make winning require less skill makes something pay to win.
- Winning implies there's a challenge.
- The challenges in MMORPGs are mostly combat related, like winning fights against monsters or players.
- Therefore it IS pay to win if I can buy a Longsword +5 which cannot be gained in-game normally, because that makes winning those fights easier.
- And it ISN'T pay to win if I buy a fancy looking hat that has no stat advantage over regular looted gear.
- And it ISN'T pay to win if I bought XP potions to rapidly progress to the level where I fought those fights. (Earning XP isn't the challenge, only the fights themselves have challenges.) But if this causes you to skip past content intended to be a skill challenge, then it can be pay to win (but be honest: when has earning XP ever been a challenge? It's always just been a matter of time, even in games that had XP penalties (because in those games you'd just fight easier mobs and avoid the penalties, and it was just more tedious than anything...which of course is why the mechanic doesn't exist anymore.))
Just because combat challenges are the most common form of skill-check doesn't mean you can't have pay2win elsewhere though. Crafting in EQ2 required a little skill, and if they sold items that made it take less player skill to avoid failing at crafting (or less player skill to produce better results) then that would be a form of pay2win too (though relatively minor, given that crafting wasn't exactly a huge part of the game and crafting didn't seem like it required all that much skill -- though maybe that changed at higher tiers of crafting?)"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Cosmetics definitely are not winning.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Spending extra money to gain a significant gameplay advantage over other players.
Waiting for something fresh to arrive on the MMO scene...
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.