@OP your selections are far to restricted. I consider Pay to Win anything you can buy in a game that gives an edge in anyway.
So my definition: Anything beyond purely cosmetic items are pay to win.
I know that some people prefer the definition of well it only help me level faster so it is not P2W, it only lets me, etc etc. All pay to win in my book.
Explain how that does not fall under the first option...No.
Wow...someone explain to me how one of the longest running game forums has shit editing ability. Anyway,
I had a long winded explanation, but I am not going to get into it with you. Suffice it to say while my definition falls within your little poll, there are many more out there not represented.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
@OP your selections are far to restricted. I consider Pay to Win anything you can buy in a game that gives an edge in anyway.
So my definition: Anything beyond purely cosmetic items are pay to win.
I know that some people prefer the definition of well it only help me level faster so it is not P2W, it only lets me, etc etc. All pay to win in my book.
Explain how that does not fall under the first option...No.
Wow...someone explain to me how one of the longest running game forums has shit editing ability. Anyway,
I had a long winded explanation, but I am not going to get into it with you. Suffice it to say while my definition falls within your little poll, there are many more out there not represented.
Thus the "most closely resembles" designation...
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@OP your selections are far to restricted. I consider Pay to Win anything you can buy in a game that gives an edge in anyway.
So my definition: Anything beyond purely cosmetic items are pay to win.
I know that some people prefer the definition of well it only help me level faster so it is not P2W, it only lets me, etc etc. All pay to win in my book.
Agreed about the poll choices.
However, I don't get the "cosmetics" viewpoint. If it takes a "lucky or rare drop" to get dyes in game, why doesn't selling them in the cash shop count? Dyes are pretty much considered "cosmetic", I think.
Saving time by paying real cash is still where I sit. The advantage being "not playing the game" or paying to cut down "time in game", aka "the grind."
However, I don't get the "cosmetics" viewpoint. If it takes a "lucky or rare drop" to get dyes in game, why doesn't selling them in the cash shop count? Dyes are pretty much considered "cosmetic", I think.
Saving time by paying real cash is still where I sit. The advantage being "not playing the game" or paying to cut down "time in game", aka "the grind."
Because we're talking about winning.
Until you're playing a game called Barbie Fashion contest, neither a dye nor any other cosmetic allows you to win.
Until you're playing Have the Most Characters, buying character slots isn't winning.
Until you're playing Carry The Most Stuff, buying bag slots isn't winning.
Until you're playing Level the Fastest, buying XP potions isn't winning.
Winning only happens in a game's challenges. P2W only happens if paying removes or makes easier a game's challenges.
Just because this topic is about P2W doesn't mean "P2W" is the only way we can complain about a game.
We don't call it pay to win when a game makes leveling ultra slow and sells XP potions. Leveling isn't winning.
We do call that game boring as hell. We have more ways to criticize a game's design than merely "P2W", so we don't have to worry about trying to redefine P2W to include every possible criticism for a game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't even know why you people play MMOs if you think there's something wrong with someone having an advantage over someone else. By your logic, buying the game at launch is p2w versus someone who comes in a month later. Unless you want no character progression whatsoever, players will always have advantages over newer or more infrequent players until everyone is at level cap. This is the nature of the genre.
However, I don't get the "cosmetics" viewpoint. If it takes a "lucky or rare drop" to get dyes in game, why doesn't selling them in the cash shop count? Dyes are pretty much considered "cosmetic", I think.
Saving time by paying real cash is still where I sit. The advantage being "not playing the game" or paying to cut down "time in game", aka "the grind."
Because we're talking about winning.
Until you're playing a game called Barbie Fashion contest, neither a dye nor any other cosmetic allows you to win.
Until you're playing Have the Most Characters, buying character slots isn't winning.
Until you're playing Carry The Most Stuff, buying bag slots isn't winning.
Until you're playing Level the Fastest, buying XP potions isn't winning.
Winning only happens in a game's challenges. P2W only happens if paying removes or makes easier a game's challenges.
Just because this topic is about P2W doesn't mean "P2W" is the only way we can complain about a game.
We don't call it pay to win when a game makes leveling ultra slow and sells XP potions. Leveling isn't winning.
We do call that game boring as hell. We have more ways to criticize a game's design than merely "P2W", so we don't have to worry about trying to redefine P2W to include every possible criticism for a game.
I think I've played my share of BAH titles over the years, but few that were really P2W.
What most people are talking about at best is P2A, but they seem to consider someone obtaining something before them as "winning."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
However, I don't get the "cosmetics" viewpoint. If it takes a "lucky or rare drop" to get dyes in game, why doesn't selling them in the cash shop count? Dyes are pretty much considered "cosmetic", I think.
Saving time by paying real cash is still where I sit. The advantage being "not playing the game" or paying to cut down "time in game", aka "the grind."
Because we're talking about winning.
Until you're playing a game called Barbie Fashion contest, neither a dye nor any other cosmetic allows you to win.
Until you're playing Have the Most Characters, buying character slots isn't winning.
Until you're playing Carry The Most Stuff, buying bag slots isn't winning.
Until you're playing Level the Fastest, buying XP potions isn't winning.
Winning only happens in a game's challenges. P2W only happens if paying removes or makes easier a game's challenges.
Just because this topic is about P2W doesn't mean "P2W" is the only way we can complain about a game.
We don't call it pay to win when a game makes leveling ultra slow and sells XP potions. Leveling isn't winning.
We do call that game boring as hell. We have more ways to criticize a game's design than merely "P2W", so we don't have to worry about trying to redefine P2W to include every possible criticism for a game.
Well then since no one sent me the memo where you were the defining authority on what game definitions are or are not, I will go ahead and disagree with you. Specifically your opinion here.
Because certain things do not fit within your OPINION of what P2W is does not mean it is not P2W in to someone else. Try and think through the idea that not everyone looks at things the way you do. IN a crafting game or if trying to conquer the market having more bag space can most certainly help win, having more characters allows for more storage, etc.
Your opinion is noted however, rejected.
@Kyleran I agree there are not as may P2W games out there as people would want one to think however, this isn't (as far as I have read) trying to label any game P2W just establishing concurrence on a definition, which my point being, @Axehilt is in no way the defining authority. Nor am I for that matter, but I also don't try to sell my opinion as fact.
Any purchased advantage (yes a change I believe in my first post I said power) is P2W in my opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Anything that makes you level faster than the next guy is included in my opinion of P2W. Why? because when he arrives at max level and starts grinding better gear , he will have a very distinct advantage over you the person that didn't buy the xp pots and hits max level 2 weeks later.
Well then since no one sent me the memo where you were the defining authority on what game definitions are or are not, I will go ahead and disagree with you. Specifically your opinion here.
Because certain things do not fit within your OPINION of what P2W is does not mean it is not P2W in to someone else. Try and think through the idea that not everyone looks at things the way you do. IN a crafting game or if trying to conquer the market having more bag space can most certainly help win, having more characters allows for more storage, etc.
Your opinion is noted however, rejected.
@Kyleran I agree there are not as may P2W games out there as people would want one to think however, this isn't (as far as I have read) trying to label any game P2W just establishing concurrence on a definition, which my point being, @Axehilt is in no way the defining authority. Nor am I for that matter, but I also don't try to sell my opinion as fact.
Any purchased advantage (yes a change I believe in my first post I said power) is P2W in my opinion.
You're wrong.
This is not opinion.
The word win means to "be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict)." Or it means to "acquire or secure as a result of a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor."
P2W stands for "pay to win".
Without winning, there's no pay to win.
Without challenge (contest, conflict, etc), there's no winning.
That's what the word means, and that's how the word is used.
Nobody is said to "win" because they put on a nice looking hat in a MMORPG.
Nobody is said to "win" because they level faster.
Nobody is said to "win" because their character carries more stuff.
Nobody is said to "win" because they have more characters.
That's the evidence and logic of why P2W requires a challenge (and the set of things I listed aren't challenges in most games.) You can choose to reject evidence and logic, but that's literal ignorance. I don't recommend ignorance.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think I've played my share of BAH titles over the years, but few that were really P2W.
What most people are talking about at best is P2A, but they seem to consider someone obtaining something before them as "winning."
It just isnt.
Exactly.
If people want to switch to complaining about P4A (pay for advantage) then that at least is logically consistent.
It transitions into a more interesting conversation too I think, where one side would argue that players' envy (the root of P4A complaints) isn't sufficient reason for a product not to be sold, and the other side would (presumably) argue that capitalism's fundamental inequality is bad for society.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Aren't pve f2p p2w games great? Basically free games for most, except a few whales.
What games are you talking about? That model is pretty rare.
Last time I went out looking for a MMORPG that had P2W elements I think I found like 1 example out of 7+ games. The vast majority of item shop items are convenience/cosmetic (ie not winning.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you can spend $1,000 and have gear that other people cannot have for months or maybe years, that is pay to win. If you have a gambling system like Neverwinter does with the keys to open up chest where anything can be in the chest and its a roll of the dice if you get something or nothing that is pay to win.
The problem is people dont want to spend $15 a month now. But if MMOs dropped the sub from $15 to $5 and just increase the box price things might be better and cash shops wouldnt be P2W.
Pay to Win is a term made up by those who don't want to spend the money to compete.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If you can spend $1,000 and have gear that other people cannot have for months or maybe years, that is pay to win. If you have a gambling system like Neverwinter does with the keys to open up chest where anything can be in the chest and its a roll of the dice if you get something or nothing that is pay to win.
The problem is people dont want to spend $15 a month now. But if MMOs dropped the sub from $15 to $5 and just increase the box price things might be better and cash shops wouldnt be P2W.
Pay to Win is a term made up by those who don't want to spend the money to compete.
Does it make it any less true? Like saying people who call people cheaters in sports don't want to dope up. Ok...
Anything sold in the cash shop is p2w for me. Why? Because its an MMO and unless all you do is PvP (I guess) there is no "winning" in the traditional sense. Winning in an MMO is basically beating the content necessary to get the items you want, be it for stats, or just because it looks good. If you want something in the cash shop, and have to pay for it, its P2W. The more categories (pets, mounts, gear, dyes, potions, etc) and the more stuff ... the more P2W and the less I like it.
IMO there hasn't been a great MMORPG made since 2004 so I'm not the right person to ask.
Not for you. Clearly Marvel Heroes is great for many. I guess GW2 .. it sold like 3.5M in its first week. 7 times what Eve has to slowly grow to over many years.
Comments
I had a long winded explanation, but I am not going to get into it with you. Suffice it to say while my definition falls within your little poll, there are many more out there not represented.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
However, I don't get the "cosmetics" viewpoint. If it takes a "lucky or rare drop" to get dyes in game, why doesn't selling them in the cash shop count? Dyes are pretty much considered "cosmetic", I think.
Saving time by paying real cash is still where I sit. The advantage being "not playing the game" or paying to cut down "time in game", aka "the grind."
VG
- Until you're playing a game called Barbie Fashion contest, neither a dye nor any other cosmetic allows you to win.
- Until you're playing Have the Most Characters, buying character slots isn't winning.
- Until you're playing Carry The Most Stuff, buying bag slots isn't winning.
- Until you're playing Level the Fastest, buying XP potions isn't winning.
Winning only happens in a game's challenges. P2W only happens if paying removes or makes easier a game's challenges.Just because this topic is about P2W doesn't mean "P2W" is the only way we can complain about a game.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Edit: Even if it's obtainable in game for non paying players.
- Earl Nightingale
What most people are talking about at best is P2A, but they seem to consider someone obtaining something before them as "winning."
It just isnt.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Because certain things do not fit within your OPINION of what P2W is does not mean it is not P2W in to someone else. Try and think through the idea that not everyone looks at things the way you do. IN a crafting game or if trying to conquer the market having more bag space can most certainly help win, having more characters allows for more storage, etc.
Your opinion is noted however, rejected.
@Kyleran I agree there are not as may P2W games out there as people would want one to think however, this isn't (as far as I have read) trying to label any game P2W just establishing concurrence on a definition, which my point being, @Axehilt is in no way the defining authority. Nor am I for that matter, but I also don't try to sell my opinion as fact.
Any purchased advantage (yes a change I believe in my first post I said power) is P2W in my opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Anything that makes you level faster than the next guy is included in my opinion of P2W. Why? because when he arrives at max level and starts grinding better gear , he will have a very distinct advantage over you the person that didn't buy the xp pots and hits max level 2 weeks later.
p.s. Black Desert is P2W in my opinion
- This is not opinion.
- The word win means to "be successful or victorious in (a contest or conflict)." Or it means to "acquire or secure as a result of a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor."
- P2W stands for "pay to win".
- Without winning, there's no pay to win.
- Without challenge (contest, conflict, etc), there's no winning.
That's what the word means, and that's how the word is used.- Nobody is said to "win" because they put on a nice looking hat in a MMORPG.
- Nobody is said to "win" because they level faster.
- Nobody is said to "win" because their character carries more stuff.
- Nobody is said to "win" because they have more characters.
That's the evidence and logic of why P2W requires a challenge (and the set of things I listed aren't challenges in most games.) You can choose to reject evidence and logic, but that's literal ignorance. I don't recommend ignorance."What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If people want to switch to complaining about P4A (pay for advantage) then that at least is logically consistent.
It transitions into a more interesting conversation too I think, where one side would argue that players' envy (the root of P4A complaints) isn't sufficient reason for a product not to be sold, and the other side would (presumably) argue that capitalism's fundamental inequality is bad for society.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A PVP game, not really, maybe items of power, again only if the cash shop is the only reasonable way to obtain them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Aren't pve f2p p2w games great? Basically free games for most, except a few whales.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Last time I went out looking for a MMORPG that had P2W elements I think I found like 1 example out of 7+ games. The vast majority of item shop items are convenience/cosmetic (ie not winning.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Pay to Win is a term made up by those who don't want to spend the money to compete.
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
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