Level Grind: can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

MMOExposed

When it comes to "Level Grind" in new released MMOs, can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

Especially when your game is marketed as a huge PvP game with off the chart Faction vs Faction wars, yet its totally locked behind a Level gate that say 

"Sorry, but you can not play this Faction vs Faction battle until you are level XYZ"....

Now you start to look at each level as a force of labor , rather than a fun journey. Hence why this is the age of Power Grinding. 

I will admit, when I was new to MMOs, and didnt know how the system of MMOs work, and all the Filler illusions, I thought levels were the coolest element. Then one day I reached the level I wanted, which was max, and played all the features I wanted to play, and realized that all that leveling and false pride of being a higher level than my friends, was just an illusion of filler, to keep me busy while developers make content.

that may be a legit reason, but at max level I still enjoyed long periods of gameplay even though I wasnt leveling. So its not like Levels are the only way to do filler. 

DKLond

I'm afraid the "level grind" - or the piecemeal progression is one of the things a lot of new players enjoy.

Sid_Vicious

I will never admit to that... and if it was true than good riddance to most players.

Every RPG needs a grind in some way or another.. its being forced on a rail of quests that bother me but I typically don't play these games unless maybe they have several different paths to choose from..?

Character development is important though and there always needs to be something to work on or people quit... simple PVP doesn't keep people playing usually unless the gameplay cannot be matched, but having a title to grind for or something like a PVP score to increase kept me going for many years.

Grinding is much more rewarding when you are ahead of other people... but I can live with that and prefer it..

Xyire

Meaningful progression is important to any RPG. Level grind is a way to do that.  If you don't want meaningful progression and you're looking for horizontal progression only or none at all, RPG's might not be the genre for you.

Ramajama

I do not admit that, sorry OP. I like it, not saying is my 1st choice progression system but still like it. 

Hrimnir

People like OP have been trying to turn RPG's into, fuck, i dont even know what, platform games? for ages now, sadly they're mostly succeeding.

Quazal.A

I understand the frustration of pvp players, but if consider BDO style of leveling.
As a PvE (self confessed carebear) i enjoy their style of leveling, where the quest grind isn't the core of the game, but the killing is, it doesn't bother me having to kill 1000 mobs to get 1 level, but oddly enough, it does bother having to do 30 quests to get 1 level.
However, i agree that for pvp centered players the mob / quest grind "just to get to pvp" is an outdated system, now as a non pvp player i dont know what games who are pure pvp do for leveling, but for me why players cant level from pvp i dont know (or can they?).
I also enjoy the fact that some aspects of crafting / non combat also provides a leveling route.

I think players need that  "must get to XX" if you remove the concept of leveling then all that is left is a skill based leveling ala EvE, and we all know people gripe with EvE is that if you start the game today you will never catch up with other players due to the skill progression (although this is a fallacy) its just people believe because 1 or 2 people says it is.

The other aspect of leveling is learning your character, the point of leveling is as you go through content your introduced to new systems / new skills / new mobs etc, Think about WoW , when you start the mobs you kill are just standing there, very few do anything but die, but as you progress they slowly introduce new styles of combat, things like grab / AoE attacks etc, without this learning you will stand little to no chance on any boss higher up the food chain.

We can see from players playing most games who either buy or get boosted to max how bad they are at using their character, be it boosted to level 100 (WoW) or buying toons / Skill injectors (EvE) the points / levels dont make the players , experience does, and thats why level is an integral part of most MMOs

Heffy424

I think a lot do they had the blessing/curse of WoW being their first MMO. I never even reached level cap in WoW back in Vanilla-WotK than again I didn't really care for the game as many did. WoW was my 7th MMORPG by that time EQ being the first followed by DAoC. The grinding now a days is relatively simple maybe to simple but not difficult. I used to hate DAoC's grind since i just wanted to RvR I'd bounce from battleground to battleground until caledona ended where i lost interest until i gutted the grind to 50. 

Heronn

All things are transient, what was the norm back then probably never stood the test of time.
Previous generation rpgs all consisted of alot of grinding.

Now the same does not hold up, we wanted more things to do and got that. So now we are complaining that it is not good enough. What proof do we have?

Which game has influenced different people the most are many, its not correct to say scrap everything that did work before and start over.

Iselin

Can we finally admit that some people who play MMOs don't actually like MMOs and would rather be playing an FPS or a MOBA?

nerovergil

I believe how much u grind is the problem. starting at level 1 in any mmorpg give me chill and happiness. i like feel of progression, from weak to strong. but too much crazy grinding, that will make me lost interest to playing

Hatefull

I do not agree with OP in the least.  One of my first MMO's was Lineage 2 and I managed to grind my way to max level in that game several times.  That was the grind from hell and it got much worse at later levels. I have yet to see a game come close to matching that level of grind.  Not that I want too.  However, I do feel that a progression system is necessary.

If you don't have some way of developing your character, of charting your progression you will get bored.  Humans need to have that "carrot" in front of them, I would say especially people that play MMO's.  There has to be an incentive to progress and mile markers to indicate how far you have come.  Gaining strength through a vertical progression system is one of the best way's to do that.  Look at the corporate world, very few people start as the CEO, look at the military, you don't start your military career as the Commandant, there is progression or levels.  In the real world it revolves around money and responsibility, and perhaps privilege, in games it is represented by power, flashier equipment, bigger swords and the ability to go places people that are not your level can't go.

TL/DR:  It only makes sense to have a system of progression.

YashaX

I agree. In a game focused on realm vs realm pvp, enormous gear/level gaps with substantial grind times is an utterly horrid mechanic.

People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.

ESO was a classic example of this: every time I wanted to get a character ready for pvp I basically had to research the best grind spots and just move from grind spot to grind spot. Then with the champion point system I had to spend even more time just grinding, grinding, grinding. Time spent in pvp worked against me, because it usually meant significantly slowing down progression. 

Even in a pve game excessive grind can be terrible, it is really one of the defining differences between single player rpgs and most mmos. I don't think just because a game is an mmo it necessarily has to have such boring grind mechanics, or that people who don't enjoy such grinding should "go play moba".

Albatroes

I wouldn't say that 'most' gamers in today's hate the level grind. But what I do feel devs do wrong is making the 'good' (endgame) content part of the game at cap. That and the fact that 90% of mmorpgs are just gear grinds with no real depth. The thing I hate the most is getting to cap, spending x amount of months/years as a class for it the play the same exact way as it did when I first got it to cap (balances aside). To me, if anything, cap should be where the individual learns to further strengthen their abilities, like altering how they function. Its honestly just laziness masked by the popular excuse of "it would cause too many balancing issues."

nerovergil

i think grinding in gw2 is not bad. if im bored grind in pve, i do wvw pvp. and pvp matchmaking also give me free level up!!

and level up in wvw is so much fun! capturing everything give huge exp!!! unlike teso ;(

Sid_Vicious

YashaX said:

People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.

6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.

Kabulozo

MMOs nowadays have become laughable, in a few days people reach level cap as a solo adventure and then there almost nothing to do = put the game on the self.

nerovergil

Kabulozo said:

MMOs nowadays have become laughable, in a few days people reach level cap as a solo adventure and then there almost nothing to do = put the game on the self.

few days? which mmo?

scorpex-x

MMOExposed said:

When it comes to "Level Grind" in new released MMOs, can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

Especially when your game is marketed as a huge PvP game with off the chart Faction vs Faction wars, yet its totally locked behind a Level gate that say 

"Sorry, but you can not play this Faction vs Faction battle until you are level XYZ"....

Now you start to look at each level as a force of labor , rather than a fun journey. Hence why this is the age of Power Grinding. 

I will admit, when I was new to MMOs, and didnt know how the system of MMOs work, and all the Filler illusions, I thought levels were the coolest element. Then one day I reached the level I wanted, which was max, and played all the features I wanted to play, and realized that all that leveling and false pride of being a higher level than my friends, was just an illusion of filler, to keep me busy while developers make content.

that may be a legit reason, but at max level I still enjoyed long periods of gameplay even though I wasnt leveling. So its not like Levels are the only way to do filler. 

Only when they want to target non mmorpg players.

Saying you hate level grind in an mmorpg is like saying you hate having to be good at aiming in an fps.  Most people who love these games love that aspect of it.

Kabulozo

scorpex-x said:

MMOExposed said:

When it comes to "Level Grind" in new released MMOs, can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

Especially when your game is marketed as a huge PvP game with off the chart Faction vs Faction wars, yet its totally locked behind a Level gate that say 

"Sorry, but you can not play this Faction vs Faction battle until you are level XYZ"....

Now you start to look at each level as a force of labor , rather than a fun journey. Hence why this is the age of Power Grinding. 

I will admit, when I was new to MMOs, and didnt know how the system of MMOs work, and all the Filler illusions, I thought levels were the coolest element. Then one day I reached the level I wanted, which was max, and played all the features I wanted to play, and realized that all that leveling and false pride of being a higher level than my friends, was just an illusion of filler, to keep me busy while developers make content.

that may be a legit reason, but at max level I still enjoyed long periods of gameplay even though I wasnt leveling. So its not like Levels are the only way to do filler. 

Only when they want to target non mmorpg players.

Saying you hate level grind in an mmorpg is like saying you hate having to be good at aiming in an fps.  Most people who love these games love that aspect of it.

Not only the grind itself, but the social aspect of the grind: grouping, forming parties-clans to farm in groups and also fighting enemies over hunting spots.

meddyck

That's why the only upcoming MMO I'm looking forward to right now is one without any PvE level grind (Camelot Unchained). But really I dislike gear/raid grind a lot more than I dislike level grind.

winghaven1

Eadan1 said:

My ideal leveling system goes like this : You can toggle leveling up automatically, meaning the game will choose when you are ready to level up, but you can also decide to level up at any point you feel comfortable with the skills you earned in your last level up.

NOO GOD! NO. GOD. PLEASE. NO. NO!!! NO!!! NOOOOOO!!!

MrMelGibson

I think it's going to be hard to convince mmorpg gamers to ditch one of the core features of the genre.  But i also imagine there can be some middle ground that could make both camps happy.  I'd say GW2 has a good approach where a pvper can start pvping right at level 1.  

cheyane

I don't know why some of you even play these games if almost every aspect of it turns you off or you continue to advocate for it to change.

YashaX

Sid_Vicious said:

YashaX said:

People claim that its part of the "rpg", and while there might be an element of truth in that from a kind of pve perspective, what happens in practice is players that are focused on being good at pvp find the optimum/fastest way to level up so they can be OP. There is nothing "rpg" about it. It becomes a game of finding the best grind spots and a battle of who has the most time/patience to grind it out.

6 months to a year of grind is worth it if it means that you will be ahead of many people you encounter for years in my opinion because every player wants to feel like a boss sometimes. Think about the people who cannot win a fair fight... they need an advantage sometimes that comes from grind to win. This way even a bad player will sometimes win.

If that six months to a year of grinding is primarily about actually doing pvp then its not such an issue. However, if most of that time has to be spent afk in front of a tree or rock, or mindlessly grinding mobs then that seems like bad game design. Unfortunately that is how most mmos are made.

GeezerGamer

Level grind? Sure if it's pointless like most MMORPGs made in the last 8 years. When expansions make all previous content irrelevant and pointless (As experienced with WoW's DK at the release of WotLK) 

But that's the real problem. It's not leveling that is what we don't need. What we need is a meaningful leveling experience that isn't negated by level-capping and expansions.

From a content perspective, City of heroes had the best leveling of all MMORPGs. In fact, most of us hit level cap and rolled alts. We did more leveling than we did level 50 content.

From a Game Mechanics Perspective, Anarchy Online also had one of the best Character Development designs ever. Gear was not usable based on levels. It was usable based on minimum stat requirements. If you could buff a certain stat to the required level, you could equip gear WELL beyond your normal abilities. And players did. That game perfected the art of "Twinking"

But with the modern theme park design, it's all about combat. Combat, more combat and when you are done with combat, there is still combat to do. So yeah.