If level grind turns you off,then why are you playing that game?It sounds like you think the ONLY fun can be had by attaining fast levels ? I played long duration leveling for years,i not once thought of it as grind ,i was having fun with grouping and combat and just having real [players with me.If the level comes it comes,i never cared if it did or not because i don't game to watch a level number go up. Now if i found it a grind that is simply because the game was crap,the combat crap and likely no grouping,so i was hoping to get past leveling and HOPE to find something better but better never comes in a crap game. Know why it never comes?It is because the RIDE was omitted to aim directly for 1% of the game and idk what math people are using now a days but i find it really hard to enjoy 1% of a game while 99% is crap.So i want an enjoyable experience from the first second i login to every inch of game i encounter along the way.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
We have some games like the new Legend of Zelda that show levels are not needed in an open world RPG. Quests are also not really needed. You can setup a world, let people explore it, and figure out its secrets. Sometimes leveling does add some degree of fun. It's hard to get interested in the leveling game in this day and age. In the early MMOs people were very competitive about leveling up. If the games were more about exploring and solving puzzles I'd probably be more interested in them than if they were simply about getting to the highest level and getting the best items. I am not a fan of the endgame raid that these games revolve around now.
Before i began playing BDO i would have probably agreed that grind is not a great way to do things, since playing BDO i recognise that hard work can be not just rewarding, it can be fun, there is a certain degree of satisfaction too in having worked hard for something and achieved your goal. With grinding in a game, the trick seems to be how to balance the amount of grind necessary to progress in a game not just in certain activities in a game, but in the game itself overall, and for me, i think the grind in BDO, while not perfect, is acceptable without detracting from the enjoyment to be had while playing the game, and in BDO, hard work is rewarded appropriately imo.
I've been 'grinding' in Darkfall in beta even though there is going to a wipe in a few weeks so purely doing it for fun. Figured I should take a break so I don't get burned out though. I think level progression is fun.. when I reach the end game theres just not as many goals.
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject. I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself. So I most of the time would rather not race my way there. Exception being something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk. The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever. Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm! I am rambling.
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Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject. I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself. So I most of the time would rather not race my way there. Exception being something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk. The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever. Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm! I am rambling.
I was in Albion and for us those last few levels meant goblins or trees... I used to have nightmares about them
I was almost out the door by the time Atlantis rolled out so I only have good memories of DAoC.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Is the alternative to grind quest/story driven games like Revelation Online where you gain levels without doing a single thing? Walk 10 feet to this NPC, you are now level 2...Turn around and click on this NPC...You are now level 3....all the way to end game?...I'd rather kill a million mobs than get rewarded for absolutely nothing.
I love leveling, whether it is by skills or levels. I enjoy seeing my character grow stronger, progress. I do agree that at end, when it is only gear grind, it can get boring, but that is why I like when games have some kind of alternate leveling then. Like EQ with its AA, growing stronger with new abilities and stats, or daoc with its realm abilities, gaining points from PvP to gain new abilities and stats.
It gives people something to look forward to, that is permanent and not fleeting like gear that is gone the next expansion. Of course, that problem is more on the game design because there have been plenty of games that had useful items from a few expansion passed.
Or do something to improve current items, like the epics EQ had, or even FFXIV has. That always made me feel like my time invested wasn't a waste.
Also, another way to make items useful when multiple expansions go by is to not make everything no drop, bind on equip, etc. I loved being able to use high end items like a Fungi tunic on alts, hehe.
I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject. I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself. So I most of the time would rather not race my way there. Exception being something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk. The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever. Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm! I am rambling.
I was in Albion and for us those last few levels meant goblins or trees... I used to have nightmares about them
I was almost out the door by the time Atlantis rolled out so I only have good memories of DAoC.
I was Mid, so similar sort of ending grind. That was one thing with DaoC back then the last levels were truly painful to get through. Was ready to just get out and fight you Albs and Hibs!
As a player of mmorpg such as WOW, DDO, LOTRO even runescape i feel like there should be a way of quick leveling such as DDO where the dungeons were designed to either take it slow and enjoy the story or "Zerg" your way through and level as quickly as possible to experience the character at end game. by doing this it gives you the option to create several characters that are not all grinned on .
I like that GW2 has leveling scrolls. Use them to level up a little or a lot. Real great if you have leveled a lot of alts already. Plus a max level scroll which you can test on any class in a high level zone for as long as you like, even then you don't have to use it and can save it for another day after your done testing, comes with max lvl gear and weapon sets to test. Wish more games did this.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Performing activities developing such skill, over a plain character level, you play towards what you want to play and you progress as you get good at it.
I love leveling, whether it is by skills or levels. I enjoy seeing my character grow stronger, progress. I do agree that at end, when it is only gear grind, it can get boring, but that is why I like when games have some kind of alternate leveling then. Like EQ with its AA, growing stronger with new abilities and stats, or daoc with its realm abilities, gaining points from PvP to gain new abilities and stats.
It gives people something to look forward to, that is permanent and not fleeting like gear that is gone the next expansion. Of course, that problem is more on the game design because there have been plenty of games that had useful items from a few expansion passed.
Or do something to improve current items, like the epics EQ had, or even FFXIV has. That always made me feel like my time invested wasn't a waste.
Also, another way to make items useful when multiple expansions go by is to not make everything no drop, bind on equip, etc. I loved being able to use high end items like a Fungi tunic on alts, hehe.
Many games have items that are account bound instead of character bound, GW2 to mention one. It works with items that takes a lot of work to get, like GW2s legendaries but most MMOs economy is about constantly getting new gear and if you could just use the gear from your main to your alts there would be problems.
Basically are most games constantly bribe you to continue playing by constantly giving you new stuff, if you just could use hand me downs that would make it more boring for most players to play an alt and since leveling is so fast few players just have a single character. That in term would force the devs to actually make the content more fun to keep the players and it sounds like way more worrk then just throwing more glass pearls at the players.
AAs was a great idea, I wouldn't mind seeing a system that mixed that with the current achievement system modern MMOs use. In fact, I wouldn't mind replacing the watered down modern level system with AAs and skip the levels altogether, there are advantages with AAs. For one thing they reward you for doing different stuff instead of just doing a few things over and over.
It's not the leveling that's the problem, it's how the game is designed to have you do it. If you have to clear 8 dungeons or whatever to level up, but the content is there so it doesn't feel so repetitive, it can be fun. If you have to grind out 300 kobolds and it takes 5 hours, no, it sucks.
First off, you need to specify what type of MMO you are referring to. For instance, FPS MMOs don't really have level restrictions but ones like The Division do have areas of varying difficulty. So you are welcome to go where ever you please, but you'd be stupid to go into areas much more difficult than you can handle.
Secondly, there are RPG MMOs that do eliminate the need to PvE grind in order to participate in PvP, such as GW2. However, even a boosted level 1 isn't going to do much against MAXed out and geared enemies.
In the end, level grind is a RPG element and thus a PvE element and is a core part of any MMORPG. You can't really remove something from a game that has and always will be a cornerstone of the RPG genre.
So, you can either play FPS MMOs which are designed specifically for your mindset or you can try to enjoy the sloppy PvP that most MMORPG developers come up with when they try to combine PvE with PvP. As I said, GW2 did what they could to allow every level to participate, but a level 1 is still pretty much canon fodder.
The division is just a multiplayer FPS, not a MMO. It features no massive combat so at best it is a MOFPS but gameplay wise it is not that different from Rainboiw 6:Siege so I don't think games like it and Destiny should be added in to confuse things. WW2 online on the other hand was a MMOFPS so MMOs like you describe do exist even if they are few.
RPGs might indeed have levels and usuallydo but that isn't really what makes them a RPG. RPG is about interactions between you and others, be that scripted npcs and other players. It is about experience situations as another person, not about combat systems.
Most people tend to consider everything from D&D as RPG and anything not based on it as something else but there are many good pen and paper RPGs that are very different indeed. All RPGs I played had some kind of progression but that progression is often rather small and most P&P games does in fact not reward you for killing anything but to solve problems, use skills or similar things.
There is no rule whatsoever that say RPG is something for PvE besides the fast that D&D mechanics works rather bad for it but the mechanics from Shadowrun or Warhammer fantasy roleplayingon the other hand would work great in a PvP MMO even if you would get about the same effect as you get with GW2: a newly made character would have little chance against a vet but they would have a chance (well, a sniper in Shadowrun would kill any vet dead even as a noob but that is an exception).
You do not need to have grind in RPGs mechanic wise, the grind comes because it is so hard to create enough original content to keep players busy in it for months or years. You do not need levels either, for instance while Guildwars did have 20 levels both the PvE and PvP would have worked just as well without them altogether.The PvPers could already start at max level but while some adjustment to the starter zones the PvE woulld have worked fine the same way.
All that said, I think we are rather close to eachother about PvP: the mechanics most MMOs use for it does not work while the FPS games have got things just right for that type of game. If MMOs want to get more then a few percentage of it's population to PvP we need mechanics that makes every combat exciting and current MMO mechanics rarely succeed at that.
I do think that we could get a middleground that would work for both gamestyles and anyone who doubt it really should try to play the pen and paper games Shadowrun before deciding it wont work.
But none of that can stop the repetitive content we call "grind", only player or AI created content could be made in the quantity to do that.
Only reason grinds turn people off in modern mmorpgs is because you know nerfs and catch up mechanics will come and make the previous grind completely obsolete. Just like the AP/AK system in WoW atm as a prime example. Pretty much if you did AP farm before you got AK lv26 you'd be getting 4x less AP vs being lvl 26. And the % keeps going insanely high per level (Asmondgold did a video on each level's %). The system is great for a super casual but ultimately burns the super hardcore because if they just wait and wait until pretty much AK 50 then they can go hard at that point, but its pretty much telling them to stay subbed and forget about playing/enjoying the game until every 4-5 days when they should check on your AK orders. If the grinds had more value like say in Ragnarok Online, where every level you got mattered, then maybe people would actually tolerate it more.
Level grind turns me off so much i am doing it for the millionth time ,restarting the same game i have made a hundred characters for.
There is no such thing as grind,only good games and bad games.So go ahead and support that crappy game and get about 1% of it's value from that end game instance.I'll have fun killing stuff and crafting and not worry about levels or some term called grind.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The writer of this article is the same kinda moron that cries 2 weeks in that there is nothing to do at endgame and they want new content cause they are bored already, i don't know were you are getting your facts but not "MOST" players hate to grind, maybe you and your little group but "most" the ppl i play with enjoy the grind so quit generalizing the entire gaming community just cause your little niche doesn't like grinding, leveling will NEVER go away in an MMO, get use to it and quit being part of the instant gratification generation.
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
I think you really got to the heart of it here.
If you don't look at the game you are playing as an adventure to be enjoyed and instead look at it as "what do I have to do to get to endgame?", then you might as well not be playing at all.
Seriously, stop looking at games as computer programs, and just start having fun, with a little imagination.
Sure it gets routine and mundane at times, but then you are playing too much. Stop and try something different or just slow down. When will people understand that MMO's aren't about winning or getting to the top as fast as possible? They should be about the journey, and to me, leveling and yes "grinding" are all a part of that.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
I think you really got to the heart of it here.
If you don't look at the game you are playing as an adventure to be enjoyed and instead look at it as "what do I have to do to get to endgame?", then you might as well not be playing at all.
Seriously, stop looking at games as computer programs, and just start having fun, with a little imagination.
Sure it gets routine and mundane at times, but then you are playing too much. Stop and try something different or just slow down. When will people understand that MMO's aren't about winning or getting to the top as fast as possible? They should be about the journey, and to me, leveling and yes "grinding" are all a part of that.
This is how I think of it and why I enjoy "the grind", which to me is not a grind. I'll even forgo quests (at this point I just can't stand them, all they have you do is running around to glowy places to do "not much of anything") and just head out and see what "adventure" I can find.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
I played long duration leveling for years,i not once thought of it as grind ,i was having fun with grouping and combat and just having real [players with me.If the level comes it comes,i never cared if it did or not because i don't game to watch a level number go up.
Now if i found it a grind that is simply because the game was crap,the combat crap and likely no grouping,so i was hoping to get past leveling and HOPE to find something better but better never comes in a crap game.
Know why it never comes?It is because the RIDE was omitted to aim directly for 1% of the game and idk what math people are using now a days but i find it really hard to enjoy 1% of a game while 99% is crap.So i want an enjoyable experience from the first second i login to every inch of game i encounter along the way.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
With grinding in a game, the trick seems to be how to balance the amount of grind necessary to progress in a game not just in certain activities in a game, but in the game itself overall, and for me, i think the grind in BDO, while not perfect, is acceptable without detracting from the enjoyment to be had while playing the game, and in BDO, hard work is rewarded appropriately imo.
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I was almost out the door by the time Atlantis rolled out so I only have good memories of DAoC.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It gives people something to look forward to, that is permanent and not fleeting like gear that is gone the next expansion. Of course, that problem is more on the game design because there have been plenty of games that had useful items from a few expansion passed.
Or do something to improve current items, like the epics EQ had, or even FFXIV has. That always made me feel like my time invested wasn't a waste.
Also, another way to make items useful when multiple expansions go by is to not make everything no drop, bind on equip, etc. I loved being able to use high end items like a Fungi tunic on alts, hehe.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Performing activities developing such skill, over a plain character level, you play towards what you want to play and you progress as you get good at it.
Basically are most games constantly bribe you to continue playing by constantly giving you new stuff, if you just could use hand me downs that would make it more boring for most players to play an alt and since leveling is so fast few players just have a single character. That in term would force the devs to actually make the content more fun to keep the players and it sounds like way more worrk then just throwing more glass pearls at the players.
AAs was a great idea, I wouldn't mind seeing a system that mixed that with the current achievement system modern MMOs use. In fact, I wouldn't mind replacing the watered down modern level system with AAs and skip the levels altogether, there are advantages with AAs. For one thing they reward you for doing different stuff instead of just doing a few things over and over.
RPGs might indeed have levels and usuallydo but that isn't really what makes them a RPG. RPG is about interactions between you and others, be that scripted npcs and other players. It is about experience situations as another person, not about combat systems.
Most people tend to consider everything from D&D as RPG and anything not based on it as something else but there are many good pen and paper RPGs that are very different indeed. All RPGs I played had some kind of progression but that progression is often rather small and most P&P games does in fact not reward you for killing anything but to solve problems, use skills or similar things.
There is no rule whatsoever that say RPG is something for PvE besides the fast that D&D mechanics works rather bad for it but the mechanics from Shadowrun or Warhammer fantasy roleplayingon the other hand would work great in a PvP MMO even if you would get about the same effect as you get with GW2: a newly made character would have little chance against a vet but they would have a chance (well, a sniper in Shadowrun would kill any vet dead even as a noob but that is an exception).
You do not need to have grind in RPGs mechanic wise, the grind comes because it is so hard to create enough original content to keep players busy in it for months or years.
You do not need levels either, for instance while Guildwars did have 20 levels both the PvE and PvP would have worked just as well without them altogether.The PvPers could already start at max level but while some adjustment to the starter zones the PvE woulld have worked fine the same way.
All that said, I think we are rather close to eachother about PvP: the mechanics most MMOs use for it does not work while the FPS games have got things just right for that type of game. If MMOs want to get more then a few percentage of it's population to PvP we need mechanics that makes every combat exciting and current MMO mechanics rarely succeed at that.
I do think that we could get a middleground that would work for both gamestyles and anyone who doubt it really should try to play the pen and paper games Shadowrun before deciding it wont work.
But none of that can stop the repetitive content we call "grind", only player or AI created content could be made in the quantity to do that.
He doesn't like it so it must mean nobody likes it, delusional at best.
There is no such thing as grind,only good games and bad games.So go ahead and support that crappy game and get about 1% of it's value from that end game instance.I'll have fun killing stuff and crafting and not worry about levels or some term called grind.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Most of us think of it as the adventure.
That is the reason we play
From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about.
If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
If you don't look at the game you are playing as an adventure to be enjoyed and instead look at it as "what do I have to do to get to endgame?", then you might as well not be playing at all.
Seriously, stop looking at games as computer programs, and just start having fun, with a little imagination.
Sure it gets routine and mundane at times, but then you are playing too much. Stop and try something different or just slow down. When will people understand that MMO's aren't about winning or getting to the top as fast as possible? They should be about the journey, and to me, leveling and yes "grinding" are all a part of that.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo