The problem I see with getting rid of levels and locking things behind achievements or content instead is that it forces players to do things they might not want to. Allowing progression through experience gain gives the player the option of doing whatever they like, whenever they like.
TBH, I think that's the nail on the head right there. That's why it exists and that's why it won't ever go away.
I am well aware of that, it is the best argument against it just like it works against locking the good gear behind dungeons and raids.
But I think people would have more fun at average this way then by picking the easiest and fastest content. Everybody will play things they wouldn't otherwise play, some you wont like but other things can surprise you and actually turn out to be really fun.
One thing though is that if you have instanced PvP like most games today you would be smart to only put PvP only things behind PvP achievement or too have 2 ways to unlocking those achievements, one PvP and one PvE. Having a achievements that forces PvE fans to try PvP a little is fine but I would stay away from forcing them to play as much time in PvP as PvE.
The problem I see with getting rid of levels and locking things behind achievements or content instead is that it forces players to do things they might not want to. Allowing progression through experience gain gives the player the option of doing whatever they like, whenever they like.
TBH, I think that's the nail on the head right there. That's why it exists and that's why it won't ever go away.
IMO, that kind of player is always going to find a way to bitch and moan about something. They might cry/whine in the forums about being forced to do something for example. They don't want to play the game, they want a game catered to their stupid whims. We don't need those types around.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
It turns me off in old MMOs too. Makes me turn them off. Makes me never want to turn them on again. Makes me not want to download or install new games with vertical level grind and endgame gear grind. If all MMORPGs were made and were always going to be made like EQ/WoW, I would quit them forever.
RPGs were founded on actually stepping into the shoes of your character and role playing. Something that no longer happens in a game genre which has become singularly focused on leveling. In fact most people who do it in modern MMOs are disparaged for it.
When you put people on a more equal power level in an MMO setting and add in sandbox elements they form communities and even if they don't talk in-character like a hardcore roleplayer they have a sense of who they are in the world and a deeper connection to the world than they could ever have repeating raids for epic loot drops.
In some ways, lowering or removing levels from MMOs would be one of the best ways to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
It turns me off in old MMOs too. Makes me turn them off. Makes me never want to turn them on again. Makes me not want to download or install new games with vertical level grind and endgame gear grind. If all MMORPGs were made and were always going to be made like EQ/WoW, I would quit them forever.
Why do you and others like you make a conscious decision to spend money on something you obviously do not like.
Sorry to bust everyone's anti leveling bubble, but RPG's were founded on it. If you are like the OP and are only focused on the PvP and are anti leveling, there are games called FPS which are right up your alley. As for PvE or better yet, RPG games, don't waste your time trying to reinvent the wheel.
I agree with this, MMO+RPG is an RPG played by many people hence the need of levels. No levels no RPG. In fact I enjoy more the leveling than the end game which is usually when I quit.
If the OP likes to play PvP there are plenty of choices on the market, they are called MOBAs. I am actually in favor of a much slower leveling progress EQ1 style, for me is all about the journey. So OP, I don't agree that levels turn off players, it's the end game that usually does it, as leveling nowadays can bwe done in few weeks you are then stuck on a tedious end game circle made of repetitive tasks that gives you no sense of real progress like levels do.
RPGs were founded on actually stepping into the shoes of your character and role playing. Something that no longer happens in a game genre which has become singularly focused on leveling. In fact most people who do it in modern MMOs are disparaged for it.
When you put people on a more equal power level in an MMO setting and add in sandbox elements they form communities and even if they don't talk in-character like a hardcore roleplayer they have a sense of who they are in the world and a deeper connection to the world than they could ever have repeating raids for epic loot drops.
In some ways, lowering or removing levels from MMOs would be one of the best ways to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
Actually, in RPGs, equality was a very rare thing. If you think of the amount of races that have evolved in the RPG community, all of which are known for having very different racial traits and weaknesses, not to mention classes which developed differently, both in stats and skills. Well, the truth is, RPG is more than just about role playing a character. It's also a story and stories require a means of progression. Leveling was introduced in order to shorten the lifespan of these fictional characters, so we could experience not only a multitude of characters over a short period of time, but also the stories or rather adventures. Leveling is just a means of rapidly progressing through a single characters life, nothing more, nothing less.
I never said equity was common in early RPGs though there is equity between the players in the party and between the party and the content they face in most tabletop campaigns.
The thing is you cannot pick up a D&D campaign and translate it perfectly into a MMORPG. In a tabletop campaign the objective is never the level or the gear. Sure they are cool but they are a means to an end. That end is advancing the storyline and your character's objectives. Roleplay comes naturally and doesn't feel forced. You are your character, you relate to your character, and encounters that do not involve combat, XP, or loot gained aren't a distraction. They can sometimes make the campaign. They can be a chance to show of your character's personality.
Now let's be honest, how often do you actually read quests in MMO? Develop a personality and backstory for your character? Actually let other players experience your character's personality?
No what pretty much everyone does is skip past the story, breeze through all the content and then repetitively run the same dungeons over and over and over to get their character as strong as possible, as fast as possible. That's because people hate feeling gated. They don't want to get crushed in PvP. They want to be able to run the raids their friends are running. The game is pushing them to progress in power and it becomes the singular focus of their gaming experience.
It's clear to me at least that in an MMORPG that dramatic power progression and roleplay are two mutually exclusive features for the vast majority of players.
And between those two features, the part of an RPG I would like to keep is the roleplay, and not focus the gameplay around features that were originally created to support the roleplay, but that have outlived that function in the MMO format.
@Rhoklaw - There are two approaches to bringing roleplay into the MMO space. The first is the idea of content and a storyline. Themeparks essentially follow the formula of a single player RPG "You are the chosen one, you have a great destiny ahead of you, run through these scripted encounters to realise your destiny." You are right in that there will never be enough dynamic content to satisfy this model. In MMOs it suffers from a few major problems IMO:
1. Everyone is the chosen one, which hurts suspension of disbelief. Everyone following the same storyline and seeing the boss you were just sent to kill respawning but really kill the immersion factor that would be present in a single player game.
2. To make a storyline fill up more time and take you through a larger universe you need LOTS of side quests, which hurts their quality. Some of my favorite things in my early gaming days were doing side content. Swoop bike racing and Pazaak in KOTOR. The archery and fishing minigames in Zelda etc. If you would have told 8-16 year old me there would be a genre of games inhabited by hundreds or thousands of players where the main storyline took a back seat to side quests needed to progress I would have freaked about how it would be the best thing ever. The problem with MMOs is that we see the same few sidequest formulas repeated over and over ad nauseum because developers don't have time to do 300 unique and engaging sidequests.
3. This is really an extension of two. In a single player RPG you progress naturally at the the rate you finish the storyline. At least personally I don't find myself playing to push levels in the single player format. I am playing to advance the storyline and levels come naturally at the same rate that I need them (or slightly faster than I need them a lot of the time.) In order to make sure you play their filler sidequest content the modern MMO forces you to do many sidequests, which as previously mentioned, are crap.
I'm sure you've already guessed where I was going with this. The alternative is the sandbox model which in my opinion is the true model for creating roleplay in a massively multiplayer environment. Roleplay in a sandbox shifts from playing your characters role via following a scripted storyline to your role being who you are in the sandbox community. This is of course constantly dynamic because human interaction is dynamic. Instead of the massively multiplayer aspect being a hindrance to roleplay it makes use of the massively multiplayer aspects of the game to create the roleplay. You can be the villain, the hero, the farmer, the blacksmith, the diplomat, the merchant, some combination of roles etc.
The issue is in a sandbox since it is so player interaction driven having characters that can absolutely wreck other characters regardless of player skills ruins the experience for the player at the lower end of the power disparity. This is why you see sandboxes generally come with a lower power disparity but unfortunately it is still far too high in most sandbox games. The WoW clone generation of MMOs has seen sandbox MMOs locked in their infancy. In order to mature they need:
1. Lower power disparity. 2. Greater emphasis on immersion and social interaction. 3. Much more effective anti-griefing measures.
@Skadad - "Nothing to strive for" isn't what makes people hop games. Crap games is what makes people hop games. To this day the only game I've stuck with for more than 6-8 months without needing to switch titles to preserve my sanity was a game where you could max your character in 3-5 hours. I didn't play to progress. I played to be a part of the community, make a mark in the community, and because the game was fun.
If leveling and gear grind are your primary reasons to continue to play a game then what that means is the game itself is crap.
It wasn't level grind that turn off player but level lock .
Basically something like you need to be level xx to do yy and it require nn time to level up to xx that turn player off the game .
I call BS on this, scaling is what ruins games. That and access to everything for everyone. Makes it so that there is nothing to strive for, hence the 1-4month game-jumps of todays market.
BS you are . Remove level lock don't mean scaling . One reason level grind suck is it require too much time to unlock stuff that wasn't relate to level. For example you have a level 50 gears but you still level 40 and have to grind 10 level = 1 week to wear it . Or dungeon level 30 don't have anyone raid but level 50 are full of raids , but you have to grind more level to join level 50 and when you 50 , no one raid but level 60 dungeon . Or you can finish a level 50 quest with 1 dps and 1 healer but you don't get reward cause your level only 30 , i call that BS .
Remove level lock mean player have more freedom to access contents and easier to support player base . But it don't mean to scaling content so it can be easy for everyone
level itself is fine as save point for stats reward , but it's no good to lock contents .
It wasn't level grind that turn off player but level lock .
Basically something like you need to be level xx to do yy and it require nn time to level up to xx that turn player off the game .
I call BS on this, scaling is what ruins games. That and access to everything for everyone. Makes it so that there is nothing to strive for, hence the 1-4month game-jumps of todays market.
BS you are . Remove level lock don't mean scaling . One reason level grind suck is it require too much time to unlock stuff that wasn't relate to level. For example you have a level 50 gears but you still level 40 and have to grind 10 level = 1 week to wear it . Or dungeon level 30 don't have anyone raid but level 50 are full of raids , but you have to grind more level to join level 50 and when you 50 , no one raid but level 60 dungeon . Or you can finish a level 50 quest with 1 dps and 1 healer but you don't get reward cause your level only 30 , i call that BS .
Remove level lock mean player have more freedom to access contents and easier to support player base . But it don't mean to scaling content so it can be easy for everyone
level itself is fine as save point for stats reward , but it's no good to lock contents .
That's more an issue of game design than leveling.
So for your first example, make it so that there is no level associated with gear. Done. Maybe it degrades so one has to spend time getting the mats or buying it from crafters.
When I played Morrowind for the first time I found a submerged cave that had a Dragon bone breastplate. I found this at a low level. Was a great find and was very exciting.
2nd example, don't base your game on raids. Make a variety of encounters that scale across different level ranges. If you want to try something harder, get a good group together and try.
Your last example has to do with the quest. A fix to your example would just give the reward. Done.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I didn't mind it in older pre Wow mmo's. You got great xp from questing and just killing mobs in the wild. New games seem to not give as much xp as they used to.
It wasn't level grind that turn off player but level lock .
Basically something like you need to be level xx to do yy and it require nn time to level up to xx that turn player off the game .
I call BS on this, scaling is what ruins games. That and access to everything for everyone. Makes it so that there is nothing to strive for, hence the 1-4month game-jumps of todays market.
BS you are . Remove level lock don't mean scaling . One reason level grind suck is it require too much time to unlock stuff that wasn't relate to level. For example you have a level 50 gears but you still level 40 and have to grind 10 level = 1 week to wear it . Or dungeon level 30 don't have anyone raid but level 50 are full of raids , but you have to grind more level to join level 50 and when you 50 , no one raid but level 60 dungeon . Or you can finish a level 50 quest with 1 dps and 1 healer but you don't get reward cause your level only 30 , i call that BS .
Remove level lock mean player have more freedom to access contents and easier to support player base . But it don't mean to scaling content so it can be easy for everyone
level itself is fine as save point for stats reward , but it's no good to lock contents .
That's more an issue of game design than leveling.
So for your first example, make it so that there is no level associated with gear. Done. Maybe it degrades so one has to spend time getting the mats or buying it from crafters.
When I played Morrowind for the first time I found a submerged cave that had a Dragon bone breastplate. I found this at a low level. Was a great find and was very exciting.
2nd example, don't base your game on raids. Make a variety of encounters that scale across different level ranges. If you want to try something harder, get a good group together and try.
Your last example has to do with the quest. A fix to your example would just give the reward. Done.
And sadly most MMORPG don't do it . But they are also main reason why i hate level grind . Cause you have to grind it or else you can't join the game.
[level] grinding is bad, but if it's a grind then the game's design is to blame. However, [level] advancement IS one of the pillars of game play in any MMO.
[level] grinding is bad, but if it's a grind then the game's design is to blame. However, [level] advancement IS one of the pillars of game play in any MMO.
And that is why of the upcoming MMOs people are putting money into the only one that is completely devoid of leveling (Star Citizen) has raised over 12 times as much money a the next biggest crowdfunded MMO.
We should go let them know that Star Citizen isn't an MMO because it won't feature level advancement.
Sorry OP all MMOs are lvl based in one form or another .... SOme do a better job of disguising/hiding it, but in the end, All of them , and there is no getting away from that .... Im not even sure if there will ever be a way to get away from it
Sorry OP all MMOs are lvl based in one form or another .... SOme do a better job of disguising/hiding it, but in the end, All of them , and there is no getting away from that .... Im not even sure if there will ever be a way to get away from it
There are loads of ways to get away from levels whilst still remaining an RPG. It's just something we haven't seen many MMO developers willing to try. SWG managed to not have levels, and whilst it did still have power gaps due to progression mechanics, it was very quick to reach the top of the power curve plus content wasn't locked to power levels, so on the PvE side at least, pretty much everyone could participate.
Camelot Unchained is also trying to break to mould and launch with horizontal progression. Their goal is to ensure that a brand new player is still competitive against veterans. You will still gain stat increases, but they are so small as to be nearly irrelevant. The game is all about player skill and immersion in the RvR experience, rather than grinding levels.
Comments
But I think people would have more fun at average this way then by picking the easiest and fastest content. Everybody will play things they wouldn't otherwise play, some you wont like but other things can surprise you and actually turn out to be really fun.
One thing though is that if you have instanced PvP like most games today you would be smart to only put PvP only things behind PvP achievement or too have 2 ways to unlocking those achievements, one PvP and one PvE. Having a achievements that forces PvE fans to try PvP a little is fine but I would stay away from forcing them to play as much time in PvP as PvE.
IMO, that kind of player is always going to find a way to bitch and moan about something. They might cry/whine in the forums about being forced to do something for example. They don't want to play the game, they want a game catered to their stupid whims. We don't need those types around.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Those lock wasn't "fun" at all , heh .
Follow my Blog at: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/123bentilador
When you put people on a more equal power level in an MMO setting and add in sandbox elements they form communities and even if they don't talk in-character like a hardcore roleplayer they have a sense of who they are in the world and a deeper connection to the world than they could ever have repeating raids for epic loot drops.
In some ways, lowering or removing levels from MMOs would be one of the best ways to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
Why do you and others like you make a conscious decision to spend money on something you obviously do not like.
User error, nothing else going on here.
No levels no RPG.
In fact I enjoy more the leveling than the end game which is usually when I quit.
If the OP likes to play PvP there are plenty of choices on the market, they are called MOBAs.
I am actually in favor of a much slower leveling progress EQ1 style, for me is all about the journey.
So OP, I don't agree that levels turn off players, it's the end game that usually does it, as leveling nowadays can bwe done in few weeks you are then stuck on a tedious end game circle made of repetitive tasks that gives you no sense of real progress like levels do.
The thing is you cannot pick up a D&D campaign and translate it perfectly into a MMORPG. In a tabletop campaign the objective is never the level or the gear. Sure they are cool but they are a means to an end. That end is advancing the storyline and your character's objectives. Roleplay comes naturally and doesn't feel forced. You are your character, you relate to your character, and encounters that do not involve combat, XP, or loot gained aren't a distraction. They can sometimes make the campaign. They can be a chance to show of your character's personality.
Now let's be honest, how often do you actually read quests in MMO? Develop a personality and backstory for your character? Actually let other players experience your character's personality?
No what pretty much everyone does is skip past the story, breeze through all the content and then repetitively run the same dungeons over and over and over to get their character as strong as possible, as fast as possible. That's because people hate feeling gated. They don't want to get crushed in PvP. They want to be able to run the raids their friends are running. The game is pushing them to progress in power and it becomes the singular focus of their gaming experience.
It's clear to me at least that in an MMORPG that dramatic power progression and roleplay are two mutually exclusive features for the vast majority of players.
And between those two features, the part of an RPG I would like to keep is the roleplay, and not focus the gameplay around features that were originally created to support the roleplay, but that have outlived that function in the MMO format.
Basically something like you need to be level xx to do yy and it require nn time to level up to xx that turn player off the game .
1. Everyone is the chosen one, which hurts suspension of disbelief. Everyone following the same storyline and seeing the boss you were just sent to kill respawning but really kill the immersion factor that would be present in a single player game.
2. To make a storyline fill up more time and take you through a larger universe you need LOTS of side quests, which hurts their quality. Some of my favorite things in my early gaming days were doing side content. Swoop bike racing and Pazaak in KOTOR. The archery and fishing minigames in Zelda etc. If you would have told 8-16 year old me there would be a genre of games inhabited by hundreds or thousands of players where the main storyline took a back seat to side quests needed to progress I would have freaked about how it would be the best thing ever. The problem with MMOs is that we see the same few sidequest formulas repeated over and over ad nauseum because developers don't have time to do 300 unique and engaging sidequests.
3. This is really an extension of two. In a single player RPG you progress naturally at the the rate you finish the storyline. At least personally I don't find myself playing to push levels in the single player format. I am playing to advance the storyline and levels come naturally at the same rate that I need them (or slightly faster than I need them a lot of the time.) In order to make sure you play their filler sidequest content the modern MMO forces you to do many sidequests, which as previously mentioned, are crap.
I'm sure you've already guessed where I was going with this. The alternative is the sandbox model which in my opinion is the true model for creating roleplay in a massively multiplayer environment. Roleplay in a sandbox shifts from playing your characters role via following a scripted storyline to your role being who you are in the sandbox community. This is of course constantly dynamic because human interaction is dynamic. Instead of the massively multiplayer aspect being a hindrance to roleplay it makes use of the massively multiplayer aspects of the game to create the roleplay. You can be the villain, the hero, the farmer, the blacksmith, the diplomat, the merchant, some combination of roles etc.
The issue is in a sandbox since it is so player interaction driven having characters that can absolutely wreck other characters regardless of player skills ruins the experience for the player at the lower end of the power disparity. This is why you see sandboxes generally come with a lower power disparity but unfortunately it is still far too high in most sandbox games. The WoW clone generation of MMOs has seen sandbox MMOs locked in their infancy. In order to mature they need:
1. Lower power disparity.
2. Greater emphasis on immersion and social interaction.
3. Much more effective anti-griefing measures.
@Skadad - "Nothing to strive for" isn't what makes people hop games. Crap games is what makes people hop games. To this day the only game I've stuck with for more than 6-8 months without needing to switch titles to preserve my sanity was a game where you could max your character in 3-5 hours. I didn't play to progress. I played to be a part of the community, make a mark in the community, and because the game was fun.
If leveling and gear grind are your primary reasons to continue to play a game then what that means is the game itself is crap.
One reason level grind suck is it require too much time to unlock stuff that wasn't relate to level.
For example you have a level 50 gears but you still level 40 and have to grind 10 level = 1 week to wear it .
Or dungeon level 30 don't have anyone raid but level 50 are full of raids , but you have to grind more level to join level 50 and when you 50 , no one raid but level 60 dungeon .
Or you can finish a level 50 quest with 1 dps and 1 healer but you don't get reward cause your level only 30 , i call that BS .
Remove level lock mean player have more freedom to access contents and easier to support player base . But it don't mean to scaling content so it can be easy for everyone
level itself is fine as save point for stats reward , but it's no good to lock contents .
So for your first example, make it so that there is no level associated with gear. Done. Maybe it degrades so one has to spend time getting the mats or buying it from crafters.
When I played Morrowind for the first time I found a submerged cave that had a Dragon bone breastplate. I found this at a low level. Was a great find and was very exciting.
2nd example, don't base your game on raids. Make a variety of encounters that scale across different level ranges. If you want to try something harder, get a good group together and try.
Your last example has to do with the quest. A fix to your example would just give the reward. Done.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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We should go let them know that Star Citizen isn't an MMO because it won't feature level advancement.
Camelot Unchained is also trying to break to mould and launch with horizontal progression. Their goal is to ensure that a brand new player is still competitive against veterans. You will still gain stat increases, but they are so small as to be nearly irrelevant. The game is all about player skill and immersion in the RvR experience, rather than grinding levels.
http://camelotunchained.com/v3/bsc-design-docs/progression-system/
Of course, game hasn't released yet so they could change it, but I hope not!
Follow my Blog at: http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/123bentilador
If you create horizontal progression but it has grinds, well, you do nothing with the problem.