A multi-tier crafting system where the first tier works using recipes and templates that you can gather materials and then proceed in manufacturing as some kind of station, allowing for relatively quick output of gear and items without much fuss. In other words a pretty normal crafting system akin to what you'd see from GW2, except make the materials count in categories more like DA:I so there's a degree of customization without any real complexity.
And then the second tier where players open up access to modifier components they can build to then take apart and alter the first tier items made.
Third tier crafting is actually kind of a blueprinting mechanic, where players could start getting fiddly with attribute, effects, and visuals to generate new part recipes and prototype the items.
I really don't ascribe any mini-games to these mechanics because I feel such a concept is needlessly disjointed. Rather than mini-games, you can instead grant skills to the character as they progress in crafting they they can slot and utilize much like the combat mechanics. I do not mean to "fight" the items you're producing, but more so "adding another tool to your arsenal" that lets you get more detailed in the manipulation of a crafted item.
In other words, alongside the crafting "tiers" there are gated components that unlock as you dedicate more and more time to the crafting tools.
If you really wanted to add mini-game type components to it you could add it in the form of control skills that you can slot which let you control some type of pass-fail meter I guess. Like as you combine components you get a skill roll that might initiate an event, forcing you to use some slotted crafting skills to maintain item integrity or push it into a higher quality without going over and breaking it.
But that's kind of overkill to me and is more of a distraction to the process of building something than it is actually interesting. Part of the reason I say some of this too is that a crafting system wherein players are able to spend time playing with different components to puzzle out their desired combinations and the ability to design new assets is itself the fun to be had in such a crafting system.
It's like in Spore where a bulk of the entertainment isn't derived from the banal gameplay, but from the creation tools and using your problem solving skills to come up with new creatures, ships, buildings, etc. You're engaging the player's interest by giving them a mental and artistic challenge.
Just give players a quick-jump method for general crafting where making well-defined content is super-simple, and then create expanding edit tools in order to open up those items into a more complex and interesting depth of interactivity in creation and design for those that want to jump into it.
This things this crafting system does then is basically this;
All items (gear, buildings, furniture, etc) are made out of components that are in some manner sculptable using the third tier crafting tool(s), and made so that they fit certain required dimensions and possess required snap points to connect to other components.
These components are all modular in their nature, allowing the second tier crafting system to use a visual model of the components to plug together parts and design, redesign, or modify complete items.
The first tier is then able to obtain blueprints of the complete versions and fill out the required materials list to "craft" without fussing with individual components. (The items made in first tier are then compatible with using the second tier system to modify the newly built item.)
Feel like this could offer a rather flexible system for players that both want to just get what they need out of crafting quickly without delving into anything complex, while also still offering a complex and rewarding crafting system.
Obviously none of this is a concrete concept and there's and endless list of missing details, but it establishes a different way of regarding the crafting process. Can fiddle with the idea of tiers, crafting tools, editing tools, etc quite a bit to find a preferred balance.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
sunandshadow I know you spent a good amount of time on your post and when I read it I really just didnt have time to digest it.
I dont as much now either but I think because my gut tells me from reading it that perhaps what I was asking was not understood to begin with. So with that bit of lazyness on my part again I am sorry for not digesting the entire post.
With that said what I have read from many in this thread about what would make a good crafting engine already exists in heavy crafting games. RNG as a key example already exists in many if not most if not all crafting engines. I personally have never played one that doesnt have that element. so this is part of my confusion.
I am also confused if materials and reciepes dont matter then if we take them out how would a crafting system work? aruging over if painting is or is not a craft or if intrest in recipes is or is not a core part of a crafters intrest is also les important.
getting a feel for how a NEW imagined system could work in a way that is radically different from how it works now would help out a lot I think.
The reason I say 'radically' is that some here are suggesting most crafting systems are not good which is a poinr I disagree with.
Would it help if I started with an example of creating a carving knife and why I would need to make a carving knife in first place?
You can always read back over my post later if you want. To answer this stuff here, I personally think that the lack of minigames is the only real problem with crafting in crafting-heavy games like Wurm and ATiTD. (Well, and the lack of a global marketplace to trade crafted items in, but that's not directly related to crafting.) I don't like RNG so it's definitely not part of _my_ definition of what would make a good crafting engine. In fact, minigame scores basically replace RNG as the source of variation among crafted items, assuming there is any variation at all.
You may have not played a game which lacks RNG, but if you think back carefully you may notice that some crafted items in the same game are much less variable than others. For example, storage chests - most games which allow you to craft storage chests have completely standard chests which all contain the same amount of stuff and look the same. At most they might have varying durability.
So yes, most of the pieces needed for an ideal crafting system are available in existing games, but there isn't a game that combines all the elements in a way I like. Puzzle Pirates might be the best example of crafting minigames, but the crafting system as a whole is baffling and lacks gathering and doesn't allow for player-constructed housing and various other problems.
"Recipes don't matter" - This statement is very squishy and subject to personal interpretation. I would interpret it as valid in 3 cases:
1. Some crafting required 1 or 0 mats, in which case there isn't really a recipe. These aren't the typical crafting activity of any well-developed crafting system though.
2. Some kinds of crafting, for example of vehicles and houses, do not really have recipes; they may have minimum requirements, like an engine for the vehicle and a wall enclosing an area of floor for each room of the house. But they allow players to include many non-required items like seats, windows, etc. In a crafting-heavy game each of these items would have their own recipe, but in other game types there may be a grist system or a money system which totals the costs for all the parts the player selects into one cost for the final vehicle, and automatically deducts these "ingredients" from the player's accounts. (A grist system is one where the player has vats of a small number of materials - this system is very common in RTS games like Warcraft/Starcraft, Stronghold, etc. and can also be seen in some crafting-heavy games of the Minecraft and Terraria type, as well as single-player games like Spore and The Kingdom Hearts series.)
3. Recipes which have slots instead of specific ingredients are superior
to rigid recipes, and correctly move the focus of crafting away from
such rigid recipes.
I don't agree that the opinion "most existing crafting systems are bad" requires a radically different crafting system. My ideal crafting system is 1/3 ATiTD or Wurm, 1/3 drop-hunting from monsters, and 1/3 minigames. None of these three ingredients are radical, but no crafting system with this combination exists in an MMO.
I know exactly why you would need to make a carving knife - it is a tool which unlocks new tech tree branches. The only reason it's not technically an appliance is that you don't need to place it in a house or on the terrain to use it. In ATiTD knives of different qualities may allow you to: slaughter sheep, cut leather into thongs, shred wood into tinder, sharpen a stick used for roasting vegetables or fish over a campfire, whittle wooden pegs and handles, carve barrel taps, sharpen a feather into a quill pen, and more things I've forgotten. Wurm has a different list of uses but the general idea is the same.
I also know several examples of how a carving or crafting knife is acquired or made in various games. I don't like any of these examples because not one involves a minigame.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
@Deivos This multi-tier system seems like it would be particularly well suited to a voxel world.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
sunandshadow I know you spent a good amount of time on your post and when I read it I really just didnt have time to digest it.
I dont as much now either but I think because my gut tells me from reading it that perhaps what I was asking was not understood to begin with. So with that bit of lazyness on my part again I am sorry for not digesting the entire post.
With that said what I have read from many in this thread about what would make a good crafting engine already exists in heavy crafting games. RNG as a key example already exists in many if not most if not all crafting engines. I personally have never played one that doesnt have that element. so this is part of my confusion.
I am also confused if materials and reciepes dont matter then if we take them out how would a crafting system work? aruging over if painting is or is not a craft or if intrest in recipes is or is not a core part of a crafters intrest is also les important.
getting a feel for how a NEW imagined system could work in a way that is radically different from how it works now would help out a lot I think.
The reason I say 'radically' is that some here are suggesting most crafting systems are not good which is a poinr I disagree with.
Would it help if I started with an example of creating a carving knife and why I would need to make a carving knife in first place?
You can always read back over my post later if you want. To answer this stuff here, I personally think that the lack of minigames is the only real problem with crafting in crafting-heavy games like Wurm and ATiTD. (Well, and the lack of a global marketplace to trade crafted items in, but that's not directly related to crafting.) I don't like RNG so it's definitely not part of _my_ definition of what would make a good crafting engine. In fact, minigame scores basically replace RNG as the source of variation among crafted items, assuming there is any variation at all.
You may have not played a game which lacks RNG, but if you think back carefully you may notice that some crafted items in the same game are much less variable than others. For example, storage chests - most games which allow you to craft storage chests have completely standard chests which all contain the same amount of stuff and look the same. At most they might have varying durability.
So yes, most of the pieces needed for an ideal crafting system are available in existing games, but there isn't a game that combines all the elements in a way I like. Puzzle Pirates might be the best example of crafting minigames, but the crafting system as a whole is baffling and lacks gathering and doesn't allow for player-constructed housing and various other problems.
"Recipes don't matter" - This statement is very squishy and subject to personal interpretation. I would interpret it as valid in 3 cases:
1. Some crafting required 1 or 0 mats, in which case there isn't really a recipe. These aren't the typical crafting activity of any well-developed crafting system though.
2. Some kinds of crafting, for example of vehicles and houses, do not really have recipes; they may have minimum requirements, like an engine for the vehicle and a wall enclosing an area of floor for each room of the house. But they allow players to include many non-required items like seats, windows, etc. In a crafting-heavy game each of these items would have their own recipe, but in other game types there may be a grist system or a money system which totals the costs for all the parts the player selects into one cost for the final vehicle, and automatically deducts these "ingredients" from the player's accounts. (A grist system is one where the player has vats of a small number of materials - this system is very common in RTS games like Warcraft/Starcraft, Stronghold, etc. and can also be seen in some crafting-heavy games of the Minecraft and Terraria type, as well as single-player games like Spore and The Kingdom Hearts series.)
3. Recipes which have slots instead of specific ingredients are superior
to rigid recipes, and correctly move the focus of crafting away from
such rigid recipes.
I don't agree that the opinion "most existing crafting systems are bad" requires a radically different crafting system. My ideal crafting system is 1/3 ATiTD or Wurm, 1/3 drop-hunting from monsters, and 1/3 minigames. None of these three ingredients are radical, but no crafting system with this combination exists in an MMO.
I know exactly why you would need to make a carving knife - it is a tool which unlocks new tech tree branches. The only reason it's not technically an appliance is that you don't need to place it in a house or on the terrain to use it. In ATiTD knives of different qualities may allow you to: slaughter sheep, cut leather into thongs, shred wood into tinder, sharpen a stick used for roasting vegetables or fish over a campfire, whittle wooden pegs and handles, carve barrel taps, sharpen a feather into a quill pen, and more things I've forgotten. Wurm has a different list of uses but the general idea is the same.
I also know several examples of how a carving or crafting knife is acquired or made in various games. I don't like any of these examples because not one involves a minigame.
The entirity of this long post related to what I was asking can be summed up in the first sentence.
..I personally think that the lack of minigames is the only real problem...
this is all I have been trying to extract for several posts now.
Now that I am clear I just have to say I could not disagree more. Not only have I never played a crafting minigame that very frankly didnt piss me off and make me quit the game I dont think having it or not having it is a deal breaker for the entire crafting engine.
and as always I dont think people should spend time trying to think on how to make football games more intresting for non-football fans like Microsoft tried to do with Xbox....ha! (see if anyone gets what I am talking about on that xbox statement)
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
would someone PLEASE break down in detail the creation of a crafting Knife in what they see as an ideal crafting system instead of spending count pages in abstractions.
I'll give this a go, but I'll outline a couple of things I think crafting should have in order to make it deeper / more fun:
1) Variable Output - this is what is missing from most games at the moment, but crafted items should vary depending on the crafting process. A master swordsman should be able to make an iron sword with higher durability than an apprentice swordsman for example.
2) Player skill - again, most crafting systems involve no player skill at all, its just acquisition of recipes and materials, the crafting is all automated.
3) Crafting should be streamlined - don't make it grindy if it doesn't need to be. If you want to add minigames, those minigames need a purpose - to alter the outcome of the crafting process based on player skill. All minigames I've seen are so basic that theres no skill involved, so they just add unnecessary time to the crafting process.
With that in mind, here is my personal ideal crafting process for creating a crafting knife:
Step 1) Decide What I'm Crafting
We already know we're crafting a crafting knife, but like I said, output should be variable. Am I creating an everyday crafting knife for grinding out levels (in which case, I'd want to focus on durability) or am I creating a tool for a master to create something exceptional (in which case I'd want to focus on precision)?
Step 2) Gather Materials
I don't real have any preferences for this. Every system tends to be grindy and without fun when it comes to gathering materials. I'd probably go the SW:TOR route and have npcs gather standard materials for me so I can focus on experimental / rare mats.
Step 3) Create the blade
Choose type of metal to craft with (stats of rare ore will affect output)
Smelt the ore - MEANINGFUL DECISIONS: what temperature to smelt at? what optional ingredients to add?
Create the blade - MEANINGFUL DECISIONS / MINIGAME: this is where I think the player skill needs to be added. How many times do you fold the metal? How hard / soft do you beat the metal to get it into shape? If you need to re-heat, how hot?
Refine the blade - MEANINGFUL DECISIONS / MINIGAME: another chance for player skill to be added. Honing the blade to get a sharp edge, getting the perfect shape etc. If you get the angles wrong it might not slice as well, or blunt too quickly. Hone too much and durability drops off.
Customise - if the game allows it, allow crafter to customise (cosmetic) the output - dyeing (if reasonable), engraving etc
Step 4) Create the handle
As the handle should have an effect on the final product, this would be a simple "select ingredients -> press craft -> done" process.
Step 5) Assemble Crafting Knife
As the crafting knife is a fairly basic thing involving just two components, I wouldn't do anything interesting here, just select recipe, select the blade and handle, click craft.
Essentially, steps 3, 4 and 5 are the same (creating an item based on a recipe), its just that steps 3 and 4 are about creating sub-components and step 5 is assembly of a usable item. Collectively, this is the crafting process.
I would say that with each recipe / process, the developers need to ask themselves a few questions:
Is there an opportunity for the player to make a meaningful decision?
Is there an opportunity for player skill to alter the outcome?
Is there an opportunity to remove grind?
In terms of crafting progression, I take on board your points about not wanting to glorify the role of the manual labourer - I want to be the master craftsman, focused on the cool stuff. So, my ideal crafting progression would be as follows:
1) Core skill - time based (EVE) Set yourself to passively levelup when offline. 1 week offline from novice to apprentice, 4 weeks apprentice to journeyman, 12 weeks journeyman to master etc (tweak numbers to whatever works).
2) Materials - NPCs plus rares (SWTOR) Gathering mats sucks. Lets get NPCs to do it for us (for basic stuff) and let the player focus on the rare stuff. Kill a rare mob for its hide, rob a lord for rare gems etc.
3) Tests So, you've leveled novice to apprentice offline, but before you can actually be considered an apprentice, you must complete some tests. Create some ingots of superior quality. Make an iron sword with really good durability. Create a pie that doesn't go off for a week. Create a full armour set that weights less than 30lbs.
4) Gametime - crafting cool stuff Rather than spending your game time gathering mats (boring) or grinding 500 daggers to level up (boring), crafter will spend all their time either experimenting with the game, for example testing out new ingredients, or crafting stuff they want to either use or sell, or completing tests.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
because in Wurm YOU CAN MAKE CATAPULTS BUT YOU NEED A CRAVING KNIFE!!!!!!!!!!! among many other tools.
so yeah the problem is you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is bad because it doesnt have what you want in ALL ASPECTS OF IT...rather than 'some' aspects of it.
this is why we dont agree and your failure to give a concerte example is doing you a lot of harm here because its functionally rediciously
why can't one just buy a carving knife? Or a hammer.
As far as not giving examples, I've given them but you are so narrow in your thinking they just don't register. You literally want me to create a crafting system so you can understand.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
because in Wurm YOU CAN MAKE CATAPULTS BUT YOU NEED A CRAVING KNIFE!!!!!!!!!!! among many other tools.
so yeah the problem is you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is bad because it doesnt have what you want in ALL ASPECTS OF IT...rather than 'some' aspects of it.
this is why we dont agree and your failure to give a concerte example is doing you a lot of harm here because its functionally rediciously
why can't one just buy a carving knife? Or a hammer.
As far as not giving examples, I've given them but you are so narrow in your thinking they just don't register. You literally want me to create a crafting system so you can understand.
in my opinion such a question only comes from someone who is not really a crafter to begin with
why craft at all? just buy what you need
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
and as always I dont think people should spend time trying to think on how to make football games more intresting for non-football fans like Microsoft tried to do with Xbox....ha! (see if anyone gets what I am talking about on that xbox statement)
Trying to make a gaming console (xbox one) appeal to non-gamers by adding skype and netflix?
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
and as always I dont think people should spend time trying to think on how to make football games more intresting for non-football fans like Microsoft tried to do with Xbox....ha! (see if anyone gets what I am talking about on that xbox statement)
Trying to make a gaming console (xbox one) appeal to non-gamers by adding skype and netflix?
yeah...or more specifically like having the main reveal show all about basketball to an audience that saved all year to hear about gaming. HA!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
because in Wurm YOU CAN MAKE CATAPULTS BUT YOU NEED A CRAVING KNIFE!!!!!!!!!!! among many other tools.
so yeah the problem is you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is bad because it doesnt have what you want in ALL ASPECTS OF IT...rather than 'some' aspects of it.
this is why we dont agree and your failure to give a concerte example is doing you a lot of harm here because its functionally rediciously
why can't one just buy a carving knife? Or a hammer.
As far as not giving examples, I've given them but you are so narrow in your thinking they just don't register. You literally want me to create a crafting system so you can understand.
in my opinion such a question only comes from someone who is not really a crafter to begin with
why craft at all? just buy what you need
tell that to all the luthiers and furniture makers ...
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
because in Wurm YOU CAN MAKE CATAPULTS BUT YOU NEED A CRAVING KNIFE!!!!!!!!!!! among many other tools.
so yeah the problem is you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is bad because it doesnt have what you want in ALL ASPECTS OF IT...rather than 'some' aspects of it.
this is why we dont agree and your failure to give a concerte example is doing you a lot of harm here because its functionally rediciously
why can't one just buy a carving knife? Or a hammer.
As far as not giving examples, I've given them but you are so narrow in your thinking they just don't register. You literally want me to create a crafting system so you can understand.
in my opinion such a question only comes from someone who is not really a crafter to begin with
why craft at all? just buy what you need
tell that to all the luthiers and furniture makers ...
some people like to craft knifes, some people like to craft furniture, some people like to craft both. why should you force people to not craft tools but only make items that you think are important?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I also am not a fan of planning, gathering, researching, hours spent all so i can fail because I dont have good motor skills
Player skill can either be mental (making meaningful decisions) or physical (twitch), but both are lacking from standard crafting systems.
same rule as far as I am concerned applies
'oh look hunny our entire project is going to fail now because I dont understand how these squares should be put together to make the picture of a cat'
so yeah not sure what 'meaningful' ways would be in this context if not planning, organizing, understanding, learning and putting in time into the project would not qualify as 'meaninful'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
because in Wurm YOU CAN MAKE CATAPULTS BUT YOU NEED A CRAVING KNIFE!!!!!!!!!!! among many other tools.
so yeah the problem is you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is bad because it doesnt have what you want in ALL ASPECTS OF IT...rather than 'some' aspects of it.
this is why we dont agree and your failure to give a concerte example is doing you a lot of harm here because its functionally rediciously
why can't one just buy a carving knife? Or a hammer.
As far as not giving examples, I've given them but you are so narrow in your thinking they just don't register. You literally want me to create a crafting system so you can understand.
in my opinion such a question only comes from someone who is not really a crafter to begin with
why craft at all? just buy what you need
tell that to all the luthiers and furniture makers ...
some people like to craft knifes, some people like to craft furniture, some people like to craft both. why should you force people to not craft tools but only make items that you think are important?
So make it that there is item degradation and someone can buy the items from an npc or, if they are far away from town they can make their own.
done.
edit: and buyable from players, why not.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
because in Wurm YOU CAN MAKE CATAPULTS BUT YOU NEED A CRAVING KNIFE!!!!!!!!!!! among many other tools.
so yeah the problem is you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is bad because it doesnt have what you want in ALL ASPECTS OF IT...rather than 'some' aspects of it.
this is why we dont agree and your failure to give a concerte example is doing you a lot of harm here because its functionally rediciously
why can't one just buy a carving knife? Or a hammer.
As far as not giving examples, I've given them but you are so narrow in your thinking they just don't register. You literally want me to create a crafting system so you can understand.
in my opinion such a question only comes from someone who is not really a crafter to begin with
why craft at all? just buy what you need
tell that to all the luthiers and furniture makers ...
some people like to craft knifes, some people like to craft furniture, some people like to craft both. why should you force people to not craft tools but only make items that you think are important?
So make it that there is item degradation and someone can buy the items from an npc or, if they are far away from town they can make their own.
done.
edit: and buyable from players, why not.
That already exists in pretty much every single crafting system I have ever played so I am not sure I understand
degrade? check player auction house for crafted items? check
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I also am not a fan of planning, gathering, researching, hours spent all so i can fail because I dont have good motor skills
Player skill can either be mental (making meaningful decisions) or physical (twitch), but both are lacking from standard crafting systems.
same rule as far as I am concerned applies
'oh look hunny our entire project is going to fail now because I dont understand how these squares should be put together to make the picture of a cat'
so yeah not sure what 'meaningful' ways would be in this context if not planning, organizing, understanding, learning and putting in time into the project would not qualify as 'meaninful'
OK, so, examples of meaningful decisions when making a sword:
Ingredient Choice - Ratio of iron to tin + optional ingredients This is a meaningful choice because it would affect properties of the final product. Ratio of ingredients affects things like hardness and flex.
Smelting Choice - how many folds? what temperatures? From a quick google, it looks like traditional swordmakers would fold their metal between 4 and 16 times. Affects quality of end product, but go too far (20+) and the benefits of folding are lost
Tempering - what temperature? Tempering removes a lot of the brittleness and can affect final outcome. Temper your blade at a high temperature and it'll become more flexible, temper at a low temperature and its stiffer but potentially more brittle.
These are examples of top-level meaningful decisions and in an ideal system, the quality of the materials at the start will affect the rest of the decisions so that the answer isn't always the same. For example, adding tungsten as an optional ingredient might mean we can fold the steel 2 extra times and the optimal temperature might be 50c higher.
The decisions are still meaningful because the outcome would be different. For example, one crafter might focus entirely on damage and create a sword with 500dps, but as a result of their choices the sword is really brittle so will only last 1,000 attacks before breaking. A separate crafter, using the same ingredients, makes different choices and produces a sword with 450dps but is much stronger, lasting for 50,000 attacks before breaking. A different crafter, again using the same ingredients, makes different choices and makes a sword with 450dps but it's sharper so 100 of that damage ignores armour. This sword lasts 30,000k attacks before breaking.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I also am not a fan of planning, gathering, researching, hours spent all so i can fail because I dont have good motor skills
Player skill can either be mental (making meaningful decisions) or physical (twitch), but both are lacking from standard crafting systems.
same rule as far as I am concerned applies
'oh look hunny our entire project is going to fail now because I dont understand how these squares should be put together to make the picture of a cat'
so yeah not sure what 'meaningful' ways would be in this context if not planning, organizing, understanding, learning and putting in time into the project would not qualify as 'meaninful'
OK, so, examples of meaningful decisions when making a sword:
Ingredient Choice - Ratio of iron to tin + optional ingredients This is a meaningful choice because it would affect properties of the final product. Ratio of ingredients affects things like hardness and flex.
Smelting Choice - how many folds? what temperatures? From a quick google, it looks like traditional swordmakers would fold their metal between 4 and 16 times. Affects quality of end product, but go too far (20+) and the benefits of folding are lost
Tempering - what temperature? Tempering removes a lot of the brittleness and can affect final outcome. Temper your blade at a high temperature and it'll become more flexible, temper at a low temperature and its stiffer but potentially more brittle.
These are examples of top-level meaningful decisions and in an ideal system, the quality of the materials at the start will affect the rest of the decisions so that the answer isn't always the same. For example, adding tungsten as an optional ingredient might mean we can fold the steel 2 extra times and the optimal temperature might be 50c higher.
The decisions are still meaningful because the outcome would be different. For example, one crafter might focus entirely on damage and create a sword with 500dps, but as a result of their choices the sword is really brittle so will only last 1,000 attacks before breaking. A separate crafter, using the same ingredients, makes different choices and produces a sword with 450dps but is much stronger, lasting for 50,000 attacks before breaking. A different crafter, again using the same ingredients, makes different choices and makes a sword with 450dps but it's sharper so 100 of that damage ignores armour. This sword lasts 30,000k attacks before breaking.
fair enough but I would not call those 'minigames' that is more layers of depth in a crafting system of which I generally approve of but I dont like what is commonly understood as 'mini games'
I am all for drilling down on a crafting engine so deep that making a cutting knife comes close to real life. however I would not suggest that all crafting engines that dont do this are bad, just that the experimentation in gaming to make things very deep is compelling to me as long as they have context.
I also think that level of depth is something that a 'core crafter' like myself would like but NOT something a 'non-crafter' would be intrested in.
For me Wurm is the closest thing I have found to a 'deep' crafting system that to me makes sense
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I also am not a fan of planning, gathering, researching, hours spent all so i can fail because I dont have good motor skills
Player skill can either be mental (making meaningful decisions) or physical (twitch), but both are lacking from standard crafting systems.
same rule as far as I am concerned applies
'oh look hunny our entire project is going to fail now because I dont understand how these squares should be put together to make the picture of a cat'
so yeah not sure what 'meaningful' ways would be in this context if not planning, organizing, understanding, learning and putting in time into the project would not qualify as 'meaninful'
OK, so, examples of meaningful decisions when making a sword:
Ingredient Choice - Ratio of iron to tin + optional ingredients This is a meaningful choice because it would affect properties of the final product. Ratio of ingredients affects things like hardness and flex.
Smelting Choice - how many folds? what temperatures? From a quick google, it looks like traditional swordmakers would fold their metal between 4 and 16 times. Affects quality of end product, but go too far (20+) and the benefits of folding are lost
Tempering - what temperature? Tempering removes a lot of the brittleness and can affect final outcome. Temper your blade at a high temperature and it'll become more flexible, temper at a low temperature and its stiffer but potentially more brittle.
These are examples of top-level meaningful decisions and in an ideal system, the quality of the materials at the start will affect the rest of the decisions so that the answer isn't always the same. For example, adding tungsten as an optional ingredient might mean we can fold the steel 2 extra times and the optimal temperature might be 50c higher.
The decisions are still meaningful because the outcome would be different. For example, one crafter might focus entirely on damage and create a sword with 500dps, but as a result of their choices the sword is really brittle so will only last 1,000 attacks before breaking. A separate crafter, using the same ingredients, makes different choices and produces a sword with 450dps but is much stronger, lasting for 50,000 attacks before breaking. A different crafter, again using the same ingredients, makes different choices and makes a sword with 450dps but it's sharper so 100 of that damage ignores armour. This sword lasts 30,000k attacks before breaking.
fair enough but I would not call those 'minigames' that is more layers of depth in a crafting system of which I generally approve of but I dont like what is commonly understood as 'mini games'
I am all for drilling down on a crafting engine so deep that making a cutting knife comes close to real life. however I would not suggest that all crafting engines that dont do this are bad, just that the experimentation in gaming to make things very deep is compelling to me as long as they have context.
I also think that level of depth is something that a 'core crafter' like myself would like but NOT something a 'non-crafter' would be intrested in.
For me Wurm is the closest thing I have found to a 'deep' crafting system that to me makes sense
The minigames come when you attach those meaningful decisions to actual gameplay, in the same way that meaningful decisions in combat (do i heal player x or player y) are attached to gamplay (movement, timing, animations etc).
I've not seen any decent crafting systems which successfully combined depth (decisions) with gameplay, but that is the ultimate goal in my opinion.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
I also am not a fan of planning, gathering, researching, hours spent all so i can fail because I dont have good motor skills
Player skill can either be mental (making meaningful decisions) or physical (twitch), but both are lacking from standard crafting systems.
same rule as far as I am concerned applies
'oh look hunny our entire project is going to fail now because I dont understand how these squares should be put together to make the picture of a cat'
so yeah not sure what 'meaningful' ways would be in this context if not planning, organizing, understanding, learning and putting in time into the project would not qualify as 'meaninful'
OK, so, examples of meaningful decisions when making a sword:
Ingredient Choice - Ratio of iron to tin + optional ingredients This is a meaningful choice because it would affect properties of the final product. Ratio of ingredients affects things like hardness and flex.
Smelting Choice - how many folds? what temperatures? From a quick google, it looks like traditional swordmakers would fold their metal between 4 and 16 times. Affects quality of end product, but go too far (20+) and the benefits of folding are lost
Tempering - what temperature? Tempering removes a lot of the brittleness and can affect final outcome. Temper your blade at a high temperature and it'll become more flexible, temper at a low temperature and its stiffer but potentially more brittle.
These are examples of top-level meaningful decisions and in an ideal system, the quality of the materials at the start will affect the rest of the decisions so that the answer isn't always the same. For example, adding tungsten as an optional ingredient might mean we can fold the steel 2 extra times and the optimal temperature might be 50c higher.
The decisions are still meaningful because the outcome would be different. For example, one crafter might focus entirely on damage and create a sword with 500dps, but as a result of their choices the sword is really brittle so will only last 1,000 attacks before breaking. A separate crafter, using the same ingredients, makes different choices and produces a sword with 450dps but is much stronger, lasting for 50,000 attacks before breaking. A different crafter, again using the same ingredients, makes different choices and makes a sword with 450dps but it's sharper so 100 of that damage ignores armour. This sword lasts 30,000k attacks before breaking.
fair enough but I would not call those 'minigames' that is more layers of depth in a crafting system of which I generally approve of but I dont like what is commonly understood as 'mini games'
I am all for drilling down on a crafting engine so deep that making a cutting knife comes close to real life. however I would not suggest that all crafting engines that dont do this are bad, just that the experimentation in gaming to make things very deep is compelling to me as long as they have context.
I also think that level of depth is something that a 'core crafter' like myself would like but NOT something a 'non-crafter' would be intrested in.
For me Wurm is the closest thing I have found to a 'deep' crafting system that to me makes sense
The minigames come when you attach those meaningful decisions to actual gameplay, in the same way that meaningful decisions in combat (do i heal player x or player y) are attached to gamplay (movement, timing, animations etc).
I've not seen any decent crafting systems which successfully combined depth (decisions) with gameplay, but that is the ultimate goal in my opinion.
exploration of minigames done well in any system I am all for.
That said i do NOT agree that all crafting engines are basically crap because they dont have mini games
I also do NOT agree that minigames is what will attract non-crafters to crafting systems because if minigames is the only thing that draws them then they will just get pissed off
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The entirity of this long post related to what I was asking can be summed up in the first sentence.
..I personally think that the lack of minigames is the only real problem...
this is all I have been trying to extract for several posts now.
Now that I am clear I just have to say I could not disagree more. Not only have I never played a crafting minigame that very frankly didnt piss me off and make me quit the game I dont think having it or not having it is a deal breaker for the entire crafting engine.
I already knew you expect all minigames to be bad... so basically I spent over an hour writing out explanations for you, and this reply gives me nothing of interest in return. Waste of my time... Though, I guess I can stick the wack-a-mole minigame design in my game design folder.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I also do NOT agree that minigames is what will attract non-crafters to crafting systems because if minigames is the only thing that draws them then they will just get pissed off
yeh .. why even bother drawing non-crafters to something they don't like and merely tolerate?
I also do NOT agree that minigames is what will attract non-crafters to crafting systems because if minigames is the only thing that draws them then they will just get pissed off
yeh .. why even bother drawing non-crafters to something they don't like and merely tolerate?
exactly. to me the OP title is a non-starter to the entire conversation
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I also do NOT agree that minigames is what will attract non-crafters to crafting systems because if minigames is the only thing that draws them then they will just get pissed off
yeh .. why even bother drawing non-crafters to something they don't like and merely tolerate?
exactly. to me the OP title is a non-starter to the entire conversation
oh you guys.
When I was in college I was a "non drinker" as far as alcohol was concerned. Rarely ever touched it. I wasn't a fan.
Then, after college, when I had money and time I discovered good wine and good beer. At this point in my life I "do" drink alcohol but only good stuff. Only the best beer, only the best wine.
So, if a crafting system came about that spoke to people in a different way then they might very well be interested in crafting, hence the rest of the discussion.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I also do NOT agree that minigames is what will attract non-crafters to crafting systems because if minigames is the only thing that draws them then they will just get pissed off
yeh .. why even bother drawing non-crafters to something they don't like and merely tolerate?
exactly. to me the OP title is a non-starter to the entire conversation
oh you guys.
When I was in college I was a "non drinker" as far as alcohol was concerned. Rarely ever touched it. I wasn't a fan.
Then, after college, when I had money and time I discovered good wine and good beer. At this point in my life I "do" drink alcohol but only good stuff. Only the best beer, only the best wine.
So, if a crafting system came about that spoke to people in a different way then they might very well be interested in crafting, hence the rest of the discussion.
that example you gave is an example of your lack of full knowedge on to what already exists in alcohol.
It does not represent an example of 'I understand the full scope of crafting but I dont care much for it'
your example is one of ignorance of the subject matter (alcohol).
I would suggest Wurm is that fine glass of wine that most people who do not like to drink have never tried
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
A multi-tier crafting system where the first tier works using recipes and templates that you can gather materials and then proceed in manufacturing as some kind of station, allowing for relatively quick output of gear and items without much fuss. In other words a pretty normal crafting system akin to what you'd see from GW2, except make the materials count in categories more like DA:I so there's a degree of customization without any real complexity.
And then the second tier where players open up access to modifier components they can build to then take apart and alter the first tier items made.
Third tier crafting is actually kind of a blueprinting mechanic, where players could start getting fiddly with attribute, effects, and visuals to generate new part recipes and prototype the items.
I really don't ascribe any mini-games to these mechanics because I feel such a concept is needlessly disjointed. Rather than mini-games, you can instead grant skills to the character as they progress in crafting they they can slot and utilize much like the combat mechanics. I do not mean to "fight" the items you're producing, but more so "adding another tool to your arsenal" that lets you get more detailed in the manipulation of a crafted item.
In other words, alongside the crafting "tiers" there are gated components that unlock as you dedicate more and more time to the crafting tools.
If you really wanted to add mini-game type components to it you could add it in the form of control skills that you can slot which let you control some type of pass-fail meter I guess. Like as you combine components you get a skill roll that might initiate an event, forcing you to use some slotted crafting skills to maintain item integrity or push it into a higher quality without going over and breaking it.
But that's kind of overkill to me and is more of a distraction to the process of building something than it is actually interesting. Part of the reason I say some of this too is that a crafting system wherein players are able to spend time playing with different components to puzzle out their desired combinations and the ability to design new assets is itself the fun to be had in such a crafting system.
It's like in Spore where a bulk of the entertainment isn't derived from the banal gameplay, but from the creation tools and using your problem solving skills to come up with new creatures, ships, buildings, etc. You're engaging the player's interest by giving them a mental and artistic challenge.
Just give players a quick-jump method for general crafting where making well-defined content is super-simple, and then create expanding edit tools in order to open up those items into a more complex and interesting depth of interactivity in creation and design for those that want to jump into it.
This things this crafting system does then is basically this;
- All items (gear, buildings, furniture, etc) are made out of components that are in some manner sculptable using the third tier crafting tool(s), and made so that they fit certain required dimensions and possess required snap points to connect to other components.
- These components are all modular in their nature, allowing the second tier crafting system to use a visual model of the components to plug together parts and design, redesign, or modify complete items.
- The first tier is then able to obtain blueprints of the complete versions and fill out the required materials list to "craft" without fussing with individual components. (The items made in first tier are then compatible with using the second tier system to modify the newly built item.)
Feel like this could offer a rather flexible system for players that both want to just get what they need out of crafting quickly without delving into anything complex, while also still offering a complex and rewarding crafting system.Obviously none of this is a concrete concept and there's and endless list of missing details, but it establishes a different way of regarding the crafting process. Can fiddle with the idea of tiers, crafting tools, editing tools, etc quite a bit to find a preferred balance.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You may have not played a game which lacks RNG, but if you think back carefully you may notice that some crafted items in the same game are much less variable than others. For example, storage chests - most games which allow you to craft storage chests have completely standard chests which all contain the same amount of stuff and look the same. At most they might have varying durability.
So yes, most of the pieces needed for an ideal crafting system are available in existing games, but there isn't a game that combines all the elements in a way I like. Puzzle Pirates might be the best example of crafting minigames, but the crafting system as a whole is baffling and lacks gathering and doesn't allow for player-constructed housing and various other problems.
"Recipes don't matter" - This statement is very squishy and subject to personal interpretation. I would interpret it as valid in 3 cases:
1. Some crafting required 1 or 0 mats, in which case there isn't really a recipe. These aren't the typical crafting activity of any well-developed crafting system though.
2. Some kinds of crafting, for example of vehicles and houses, do not really have recipes; they may have minimum requirements, like an engine for the vehicle and a wall enclosing an area of floor for each room of the house. But they allow players to include many non-required items like seats, windows, etc. In a crafting-heavy game each of these items would have their own recipe, but in other game types there may be a grist system or a money system which totals the costs for all the parts the player selects into one cost for the final vehicle, and automatically deducts these "ingredients" from the player's accounts. (A grist system is one where the player has vats of a small number of materials - this system is very common in RTS games like Warcraft/Starcraft, Stronghold, etc. and can also be seen in some crafting-heavy games of the Minecraft and Terraria type, as well as single-player games like Spore and The Kingdom Hearts series.)
3. Recipes which have slots instead of specific ingredients are superior to rigid recipes, and correctly move the focus of crafting away from such rigid recipes.
I don't agree that the opinion "most existing crafting systems are bad" requires a radically different crafting system. My ideal crafting system is 1/3 ATiTD or Wurm, 1/3 drop-hunting from monsters, and 1/3 minigames. None of these three ingredients are radical, but no crafting system with this combination exists in an MMO.
I know exactly why you would need to make a carving knife - it is a tool which unlocks new tech tree branches. The only reason it's not technically an appliance is that you don't need to place it in a house or on the terrain to use it. In ATiTD knives of different qualities may allow you to: slaughter sheep, cut leather into thongs, shred wood into tinder, sharpen a stick used for roasting vegetables or fish over a campfire, whittle wooden pegs and handles, carve barrel taps, sharpen a feather into a quill pen, and more things I've forgotten. Wurm has a different list of uses but the general idea is the same.
I also know several examples of how a carving or crafting knife is acquired or made in various games. I don't like any of these examples because not one involves a minigame.
..I personally think that the lack of minigames is the only real problem...
this is all I have been trying to extract for several posts now.
Now that I am clear I just have to say I could not disagree more.
Not only have I never played a crafting minigame that very frankly didnt piss me off and make me quit the game I dont think having it or not having it is a deal breaker for the entire crafting engine.
and as always I dont think people should spend time trying to think on how to make football games more intresting for non-football fans like Microsoft tried to do with Xbox....ha! (see if anyone gets what I am talking about on that xbox statement)
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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1) Variable Output - this is what is missing from most games at the moment, but crafted items should vary depending on the crafting process. A master swordsman should be able to make an iron sword with higher durability than an apprentice swordsman for example.
2) Player skill - again, most crafting systems involve no player skill at all, its just acquisition of recipes and materials, the crafting is all automated.
3) Crafting should be streamlined - don't make it grindy if it doesn't need to be. If you want to add minigames, those minigames need a purpose - to alter the outcome of the crafting process based on player skill. All minigames I've seen are so basic that theres no skill involved, so they just add unnecessary time to the crafting process.
With that in mind, here is my personal ideal crafting process for creating a crafting knife:
Step 1) Decide What I'm Crafting
We already know we're crafting a crafting knife, but like I said, output should be variable. Am I creating an everyday crafting knife for grinding out levels (in which case, I'd want to focus on durability) or am I creating a tool for a master to create something exceptional (in which case I'd want to focus on precision)?
Step 2) Gather Materials
I don't real have any preferences for this. Every system tends to be grindy and without fun when it comes to gathering materials. I'd probably go the SW:TOR route and have npcs gather standard materials for me so I can focus on experimental / rare mats.
Step 3) Create the blade
- Choose type of metal to craft with (stats of rare ore will affect output)
- Smelt the ore - MEANINGFUL DECISIONS: what temperature to smelt at? what optional ingredients to add?
- Create the blade - MEANINGFUL DECISIONS / MINIGAME: this is where I think the player skill needs to be added. How many times do you fold the metal? How hard / soft do you beat the metal to get it into shape? If you need to re-heat, how hot?
- Refine the blade - MEANINGFUL DECISIONS / MINIGAME: another chance for player skill to be added. Honing the blade to get a sharp edge, getting the perfect shape etc. If you get the angles wrong it might not slice as well, or blunt too quickly. Hone too much and durability drops off.
- Customise - if the game allows it, allow crafter to customise (cosmetic) the output - dyeing (if reasonable), engraving etc
Step 4) Create the handleAs the handle should have an effect on the final product, this would be a simple "select ingredients -> press craft -> done" process.
Step 5) Assemble Crafting Knife
As the crafting knife is a fairly basic thing involving just two components, I wouldn't do anything interesting here, just select recipe, select the blade and handle, click craft.
Essentially, steps 3, 4 and 5 are the same (creating an item based on a recipe), its just that steps 3 and 4 are about creating sub-components and step 5 is assembly of a usable item. Collectively, this is the crafting process.
I would say that with each recipe / process, the developers need to ask themselves a few questions:
In terms of crafting progression, I take on board your points about not wanting to glorify the role of the manual labourer - I want to be the master craftsman, focused on the cool stuff. So, my ideal crafting progression would be as follows:
1) Core skill - time based (EVE)
Set yourself to passively levelup when offline. 1 week offline from novice to apprentice, 4 weeks apprentice to journeyman, 12 weeks journeyman to master etc (tweak numbers to whatever works).
2) Materials - NPCs plus rares (SWTOR)
Gathering mats sucks. Lets get NPCs to do it for us (for basic stuff) and let the player focus on the rare stuff. Kill a rare mob for its hide, rob a lord for rare gems etc.
3) Tests
So, you've leveled novice to apprentice offline, but before you can actually be considered an apprentice, you must complete some tests. Create some ingots of superior quality. Make an iron sword with really good durability. Create a pie that doesn't go off for a week. Create a full armour set that weights less than 30lbs.
4) Gametime - crafting cool stuff
Rather than spending your game time gathering mats (boring) or grinding 500 daggers to level up (boring), crafter will spend all their time either experimenting with the game, for example testing out new ingredients, or crafting stuff they want to either use or sell, or completing tests.
As far as not giving examples, I've given them but you are so narrow in your thinking they just don't register. You literally want me to create a crafting system so you can understand.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
why craft at all? just buy what you need
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
so there is that.
I also am not a fan of planning, gathering, researching, hours spent all so i can fail because I dont have good motor skills
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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so yeah not sure what 'meaningful' ways would be in this context if not planning, organizing, understanding, learning and putting in time into the project would not qualify as 'meaninful'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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done.
edit: and buyable from players, why not.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
degrade? check
player auction house for crafted items? check
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Ingredient Choice - Ratio of iron to tin + optional ingredients
This is a meaningful choice because it would affect properties of the final product. Ratio of ingredients affects things like hardness and flex.
Smelting Choice - how many folds? what temperatures?
From a quick google, it looks like traditional swordmakers would fold their metal between 4 and 16 times. Affects quality of end product, but go too far (20+) and the benefits of folding are lost
Tempering - what temperature?
Tempering removes a lot of the brittleness and can affect final outcome. Temper your blade at a high temperature and it'll become more flexible, temper at a low temperature and its stiffer but potentially more brittle.
These are examples of top-level meaningful decisions and in an ideal system, the quality of the materials at the start will affect the rest of the decisions so that the answer isn't always the same. For example, adding tungsten as an optional ingredient might mean we can fold the steel 2 extra times and the optimal temperature might be 50c higher.
The decisions are still meaningful because the outcome would be different. For example, one crafter might focus entirely on damage and create a sword with 500dps, but as a result of their choices the sword is really brittle so will only last 1,000 attacks before breaking. A separate crafter, using the same ingredients, makes different choices and produces a sword with 450dps but is much stronger, lasting for 50,000 attacks before breaking. A different crafter, again using the same ingredients, makes different choices and makes a sword with 450dps but it's sharper so 100 of that damage ignores armour. This sword lasts 30,000k attacks before breaking.
I am all for drilling down on a crafting engine so deep that making a cutting knife comes close to real life. however I would not suggest that all crafting engines that dont do this are bad, just that the experimentation in gaming to make things very deep is compelling to me as long as they have context.
I also think that level of depth is something that a 'core crafter' like myself would like but NOT something a 'non-crafter' would be intrested in.
For me Wurm is the closest thing I have found to a 'deep' crafting system that to me makes sense
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I've not seen any decent crafting systems which successfully combined depth (decisions) with gameplay, but that is the ultimate goal in my opinion.
That said i do NOT agree that all crafting engines are basically crap because they dont have mini games
I also do NOT agree that minigames is what will attract non-crafters to crafting systems because if minigames is the only thing that draws them then they will just get pissed off
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
When I was in college I was a "non drinker" as far as alcohol was concerned. Rarely ever touched it. I wasn't a fan.
Then, after college, when I had money and time I discovered good wine and good beer. At this point in my life I "do" drink alcohol but only good stuff. Only the best beer, only the best wine.
So, if a crafting system came about that spoke to people in a different way then they might very well be interested in crafting, hence the rest of the discussion.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It does not represent an example of 'I understand the full scope of crafting but I dont care much for it'
your example is one of ignorance of the subject matter (alcohol).
I would suggest Wurm is that fine glass of wine that most people who do not like to drink have never tried
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me