Say what you will, but unless you can find a way to disprove that an item that ultimately lacks scarcity is not rare, then you're out an argument.
We don't call things "rare" just because there's something produced in greater quantity. We call things rare because they are scarce. If something is subject to waning scarcity, then it can not be rare.
That's why things like Diamonds are artificially regulated in order to maintain scarcity. Because diamonds in real life aren't actually all that rare. Instead, we have to control their flow into the marketplace in order to create a false scarcity.
Game's aren't particularly capable of artificial scarcity because most systems as they have been implemented tend to be subject to a lot inflation over time. It's impossible as a result for an item to actually be rare, as inflation renders the availability of most all goods and resources abundant.
Also you seem fond of using the word "fallacy" even though is has no logical application to the argument. The statements are fallacious and they describe the actual mechanics of probability and the resulting consequences on the status of "rare" items accurately.
Besides which market saturation and lacking item decay only further proves my point right, so you can bring them up if you want, but that's rather counter-intuitive for you to be providing points that disprove your claim.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So an argument to you is not about addressing a point with a counterpoint in order to establish some form of reasonable discussion and convince someone of a particular stance?
Why do you even argue then, are you just another Nariu doing it for the lulz?
Your argument is that a rare item is apparently rare for no reason. When I give very clear forces defining how such "rare" items lack any semblance of the definition of rarity, you LOLing all over the place does nothing to offer any kind of sensible argument. All you keep doing is guffawing and taunting without pausing to give a rational statement on the matter.
That's not even an argument, that's just you trolling threads.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
So an argument to you is not about addressing a point with a counterpoint in order to establish some form of reasonable discussion and convince someone of a particular stance?
Discussion with you is many but reasonable.
It goes like this:
1) Small chance to craft an items makes it rare.
2) But with time, there will be many of those items on the market.
1) Yes, but they will be still rare because the chance to craft them remains the same. How many of them will be avaiable on the market is entirely different matter.
2) You are not refuting my point that with time, those items won't be no longer rare.
...
Let's say a single crafter produces 1 rare item X per week. In a game population of 100K, that item X will be truly "rare" in the second week of play, because there will only be ONE item X in the entire population.
But then 1000 players decide to become crafters. Each one of them produces 1 rare item X on average in week 2.
So by week 3, item X is considerably less "rare" in the game population.
By 100 weeks after launch, every player has an item X, so the item is now "common" in the game population.
For the crafter, the item is still "rare", because the individual crafter will only produce ONE of them per week on average.
But after 100 weeks, nobody in the game population cares anymore...
That highlights the failure of the rarity claim well. It's not even a vast sum of time being talked about, but a short amount of time in which the gear does not even need to hit the marketplace.
Hence the talk about probability and statistics. When there's a fixed and positive potential for something to happen, then it's will almost assuredly happen in duplicate as the sample size increases. Not even reaching the point of talking about selling goods on the market, this simply means that unless only one person on a server is crafting items there's more than one "rare" and that ratio is rapidly degenerating for said item.
"How many of them will be available" is exactly a point of concern since rare items are by definition a scarce commodity. If they lack in scarcity, they are not rare.
Just because you have a bunch of plastic bracelets does not mean those stainless steel one's are "rare". Just because there is a lot of grass does not mean trees are "rare". Just because you flooded the market with useless gear does not mean the only gear people actually trade is "rare".
And it goes on and on.
Emphasized with Gekko's example, individual production of a good can be argued to be "rare" from an isolated perspective, but on any practical scale and to the actual play of the game, the production volume of the item is high enough that there is no observable rarity.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Let's say a single crafter produces 1 rare item X per week. In a game population of 100K, that item X will be truly "rare" in the second week of play, because there will only be ONE item X in the entire population.
But then 1000 players decide to become crafters. Each one of them produces 1 rare item X on average in week 2.
So by week 3, item X is considerably less "rare" in the game population.
By 100 weeks after launch, every player has an item X, so the item is now "common" in the game population.
For the crafter, the item is still "rare", because the individual crafter will only produce ONE of them per week on average.
But after 100 weeks, nobody in the game population cares anymore...
...and like said, that is entirely different topic.
What you are talking about is lack of resource faucets - items are entering the system but not leaving it, thus resources and products accumulate within.
It has NOTHING to do with RNG in crafting, it will happen to all items regardless of RNG.
Emphasized with Gekko's example, individual production of a good can be argued to be "rare" from an isolated perspective, but on any practical scale and to the actual play of the game, the production volume of the item is high enough that there is no observable rarity.
In MMO's, the concept of rarity is not the same as in RL for a variety of reasons. In fact, we should probably talk about scarcity in MMO's, rather than rarity.
In RL, a craftsman can spend months hand-crafting a specific item using "rare" materials. That item will be more or less unique in the world, and may accordingly fetch a very high price if it is desired by the wealthy.
In MMO's, the rarity of an item is determined purely by RNG. In most MMO's, those "rare" items never leave the game once created, unless the owner stops playing (and doesn't sell the item).
Items in MMO's are almost never unique, multiple copies of "rare" items are identical. All crafters produce exactly the same items from the same recipes (exceptions do exist, but not in any mainstream games). There is no barrier to entry for MMO crafters, time is the only factor.
Regardless of how small the RNG chance of an item dropping or being crafted, if a large enough population of players are constantly attempting to obtain these "rare" items, the items lose their perceived VALUE as more and more of them accumulate in the game world.
We already have a long-winded explanation of why RNG is worse based on probability.
You chose to not acknowledge any of that in favor of attempting a tangent hammering on....well, nothing.
The best counterargument you could come up with was misquoting a fallacy that doesn't even properly apply since the "vast majority of common items" both 1) have no bearing on how common or rare the other item is and 2) are generally taken out of the system by vendoring or scrapping for parts. The selective memory fallacy just does not apply.
It also fails to invalidate the point on the probability of rares spawning.
Fact is the only way in which one can claim something is rare is by artificially isolating it and using relative statements instead of addressing it's actual presence and rate of production as compared to it's consumption.
The reality is that the event to spawn the rare is being triggered by a multitude of player in repetition in most any game referable. Meaning, in the reality of pretty much any game you wish to quote on, the scarcity of a rare item is going to not be, well, rare, because before it even makes it to the market you have to deal with the rate of production and probability enforced by RNG kicking out the product.
Just because there is an item is even less rare, does not make a commonly produced product rare.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Emphasized with Gekko's example, individual production of a good can be argued to be "rare" from an isolated perspective, but on any practical scale and to the actual play of the game, the production volume of the item is high enough that there is no observable rarity.
In MMO's, the concept of rarity is not the same as in RL for a variety of reasons. In fact, we should probably talk about scarcity in MMO's, rather than rarity.
In RL, a craftsman can spend months hand-crafting a specific item using "rare" materials. That item will be more or less unique in the world, and may accordingly fetch a very high price if it is desired by the wealthy.
In MMO's, the rarity of an item is determined purely by RNG. In most MMO's, those "rare" items never leave the game once created, unless the owner stops playing (and doesn't sell the item).
Items in MMO's are almost never unique, multiple copies of "rare" items are identical. All crafters produce exactly the same items from the same recipes (exceptions do exist, but not in any mainstream games). There is no barrier to entry for MMO crafters, time is the only factor.
Regardless of how small the RNG chance of an item dropping or being crafted, if a large enough population of players are constantly attempting to obtain these "rare" items, the items lose their perceived VALUE as more and more of them accumulate in the game world.
That's rather the point, "rare" is a misnomer in the application of most MMOs.
The item is called rare because it's been engineered to have a longer initial curve to obtain, but because of the nature of MMOs and the nature of RNG, there is no ability for that item to actually exist in scarcity.
Large reason for this tangent has been that I early on said RNG is incapable of generating such scarcity and that a system that utilizes player choice generally shows considerably more bias so that certain items are naturally scarce/rare by virtue of simply not being created.
Now this is generally because those combinations for items are disfavored, meaning people simply don't choose to produce them because there is no real market for them. It's essentially cutting out the swathe of vendor trash produced by an RNG system while in pursuit of the same products.
But that also opens opportunity depending on the rest of a game's design.
A lot of the argument has been predicated on the assumption of a WoW-like gear system.
But if you instead setup gear as a much less vertically scaling concept and instead act as a point-offset? A system wherein you trade attributes like speed, damage, penetration, etc back and forth based on weapon and equipment used to push favored stats while sacrificing others and subsequently "specializing" and defining your character role through re-balancing attributes.
Suddenly the ability to selectively craft any variety of equipment becomes both meaningful and whether or not one can pick the specific type of item they craft becomes all the more important since gear would be able to have a much broader ranger of usefulness, with more viable options and demands to fulfill than whatever finite options offer the highest stats.
Rarity then becomes a much more flexible matter, and item scarcity actually is an element of consequence since it indicates what play styles might be uncommon and therefore favorable in utilizing for competitive play.
RNG simply can't work with that. If you can't predictably make the gear to fill out the FOTM or just regular demands because the system is randomizing you into a lot of underutilized options, then both you as a seller suffer and the market suffers from shortages of desired goods.
It works for treadmills and that's about it.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
would someone PLEASE break down in detail the creation of a crafting Knife in what they see as an ideal crafting system instead of spending count pages in abstractions.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Best game I've seen for crafters and non-crafters alike is still SWG.
This^^^ Plus it tagged the item with the crafter's name. People would seek them out, repeatedly to replace gear. It wasn't super complicated crafting, but had perfect mechanics, materials had stats, which affected certain craftables, plus crafting skill and experimenting on certain attributes, etc. There has never been a better crafting system. Plus crafting was pretty much a class, so you actually had to give up being other things, like combat skills, it wasn't just an add on, so there was actual decisions to make when being a crafter, and you couldn't craft everything.
would someone PLEASE break down in detail the creation of a crafting Knife in what they see as an ideal crafting system instead of spending count pages in abstractions.
There is no point talking about anything more detailed than "abstractions", concepts....
you know when you want to build a house there is a guy who makes the house plans, the guy who knows all the stuff to build the house, the guy who gets the materials, the guy who organizes what comes first and second etc in the process , then there is the hired help uneducated worker who does what? hammers nails.
you are saying that if we can make hammering nails more intresting then crafting will be more intresting to those who do not like planning, recipes, organizing and planning. The key missed here is the uneducted labor guy.
yeah...umm..no
Honestly Sean I don't know where the disconnect is here other than you are so obsessed about "how to build a knife, how to make the glass". I've already addressed that. you wouldn't.
"no, you wouldn't make hammering nails more interesting" because there really is no need. Could you make alchemy more interesting by modulating heat, choosing when to add materials (and materials you choose and possibly switch out for other materials) etc? I already mentioned the game "Enigmo" which is just manipulating fluids and it's extremely fun.
I already said that in making a house you would pick your materials, either gather them yourself or buy them off of others and then you can place the walls/rooms any way you like, perhaps with some stipulations on where certain walls must be, etc.
Then you can start placing the walls, placing appropriate floor coverings, etc. There needs to be nothing more than that. When making armor or weapons there can be design and attributes or even negatives to balance out better positives.
I've seen a crafting system where you melt the ingots swing over the molten metal and pour it into a form and I actually found that sort of fun. That was in Dark Messiah.
each type of crafting can cover more or less detail depending upon what it is. They don't all have to have the exact same steps or the same detail if it's not needed.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
would someone PLEASE break down in detail the creation of a crafting Knife in what they see as an ideal crafting system instead of spending count pages in abstractions.
Personally I prefer the "plate-spinning" approach (as seen in ATITD and Hay Day) mixed with a Quality Level system (H&H).
The act of crafting remains simple: have items -> press button.
Time is a significant component, but almost never locks you down. Even though it takes 30 minutes for those bricks to bake in your kiln, you're not forced to sit there idle.
Most crafted items are components of other items. The bricks you crafted weren't the end product, merely one step along the way.
Quality is a significant component. While your bricks were baking you went off to gather higher quality mud, which you baked into higher quality bricks, which let you construct a second higher-quality kiln, which improved the quality of everything you baked in that kiln.
The result is plate-spinning: your productivity is directly related to your ability to keep all these things in motion at once and there are so many things to keep running that nobody would play the game perfectly (and therefore everyone would feel like they're steadily improving at mastery.)
Factorio is another style that was fun for me. It was mostly similar to the above, except instead of spinning all the plates yourself you created an elaborate series of conveyors and factories and tech labs to spin the plates for you. I sort of feel like Don't Starve Together is worth mentioning too, but its fun doesn't rest as squarely on its crafting (and so the crafting itself isn't as interesting as these other games.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
would someone PLEASE break down in detail the creation of a crafting Knife in what they see as an ideal crafting system instead of spending count pages in abstractions.
There is no point talking about anything more detailed than "abstractions", concepts....
I think there very much is a need to do that here, because all these clever ideas do not translate at all when one wants to make a crafting knife
is it:
1. supposed to be random? maybe I get a knife maybe I get a painting? 2. is it supposed to not have any materials required because we dont like matertials? 3. is the quality supposed to be completely random regardless of character skill? 4. is 90% of the process of making a knife just supposed to be clicking the mouse at the right time when the scale goes up or am I supposed to move the mouse back and forth until its cut?
these questions matter very much
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
you know when you want to build a house there is a guy who makes the house plans, the guy who knows all the stuff to build the house, the guy who gets the materials, the guy who organizes what comes first and second etc in the process , then there is the hired help uneducated worker who does what? hammers nails.
you are saying that if we can make hammering nails more intresting then crafting will be more intresting to those who do not like planning, recipes, organizing and planning. The key missed here is the uneducted labor guy.
yeah...umm..no
Honestly Sean I don't know where the disconnect is here other than you are so obsessed about "how to build a knife, how to make the glass". I've already addressed that. you wouldn't.
"no, you wouldn't make hammering nails more interesting" because there really is no need. Could you make alchemy more interesting by modulating heat, choosing when to add materials (and materials you choose and possibly switch out for other materials) etc? I already mentioned the game "Enigmo" which is just manipulating fluids and it's extremely fun.
I already said that in making a house you would pick your materials, either gather them yourself or buy them off of others and then you can place the walls/rooms any way you like, perhaps with some stipulations on where certain walls must be, etc.
Then you can start placing the walls, placing appropriate floor coverings, etc. There needs to be nothing more than that. When making armor or weapons there can be design and attributes or even negatives to balance out better positives.
I've seen a crafting system where you melt the ingots swing over the molten metal and pour it into a form and I actually found that sort of fun. That was in Dark Messiah.
each type of crafting can cover more or less detail depending upon what it is. They don't all have to have the exact same steps or the same detail if it's not needed.
but here is the problem
you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is TERRIBLE because it doesnt have minigames.
You are not saying PART of crafting and SOME parts of crafting can be made better with minigames.
the second statement I agree with 100%, the first I think is pure bullshit
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
you know when you want to build a house there is a guy who makes the house plans, the guy who knows all the stuff to build the house, the guy who gets the materials, the guy who organizes what comes first and second etc in the process , then there is the hired help uneducated worker who does what? hammers nails.
you are saying that if we can make hammering nails more intresting then crafting will be more intresting to those who do not like planning, recipes, organizing and planning. The key missed here is the uneducted labor guy.
yeah...umm..no
Honestly Sean I don't know where the disconnect is here other than you are so obsessed about "how to build a knife, how to make the glass". I've already addressed that. you wouldn't.
"no, you wouldn't make hammering nails more interesting" because there really is no need. Could you make alchemy more interesting by modulating heat, choosing when to add materials (and materials you choose and possibly switch out for other materials) etc? I already mentioned the game "Enigmo" which is just manipulating fluids and it's extremely fun.
I already said that in making a house you would pick your materials, either gather them yourself or buy them off of others and then you can place the walls/rooms any way you like, perhaps with some stipulations on where certain walls must be, etc.
Then you can start placing the walls, placing appropriate floor coverings, etc. There needs to be nothing more than that. When making armor or weapons there can be design and attributes or even negatives to balance out better positives.
I've seen a crafting system where you melt the ingots swing over the molten metal and pour it into a form and I actually found that sort of fun. That was in Dark Messiah.
each type of crafting can cover more or less detail depending upon what it is. They don't all have to have the exact same steps or the same detail if it's not needed.
but here is the problem
you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is TERRIBLE because it doesnt have minigames.
You are not saying PART of crafting and SOME parts of crafting can be made better with minigames.
the second statement I agree with 100%, the first I think is pure bullshit
Here is the problem ...
(and I've already addressed this) You think we are talking about games where you craft knives and hammers and glass and I'm talking about games where you craft armor and weapons and clothes and catapults, etc.
We are not talking about the same type of game. Where you gather your mats and get your recipe and ... dun dun DUNNNNNN! Make a hammer.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
you know when you want to build a house there is a guy who makes the house plans, the guy who knows all the stuff to build the house, the guy who gets the materials, the guy who organizes what comes first and second etc in the process , then there is the hired help uneducated worker who does what? hammers nails.
you are saying that if we can make hammering nails more intresting then crafting will be more intresting to those who do not like planning, recipes, organizing and planning. The key missed here is the uneducted labor guy.
yeah...umm..no
Honestly Sean I don't know where the disconnect is here other than you are so obsessed about "how to build a knife, how to make the glass". I've already addressed that. you wouldn't.
"no, you wouldn't make hammering nails more interesting" because there really is no need. Could you make alchemy more interesting by modulating heat, choosing when to add materials (and materials you choose and possibly switch out for other materials) etc? I already mentioned the game "Enigmo" which is just manipulating fluids and it's extremely fun.
I already said that in making a house you would pick your materials, either gather them yourself or buy them off of others and then you can place the walls/rooms any way you like, perhaps with some stipulations on where certain walls must be, etc.
Then you can start placing the walls, placing appropriate floor coverings, etc. There needs to be nothing more than that. When making armor or weapons there can be design and attributes or even negatives to balance out better positives.
I've seen a crafting system where you melt the ingots swing over the molten metal and pour it into a form and I actually found that sort of fun. That was in Dark Messiah.
each type of crafting can cover more or less detail depending upon what it is. They don't all have to have the exact same steps or the same detail if it's not needed.
but here is the problem
you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is TERRIBLE because it doesnt have minigames.
You are not saying PART of crafting and SOME parts of crafting can be made better with minigames.
the second statement I agree with 100%, the first I think is pure bullshit
Here is the problem ...
(and I've already addressed this) You think we are talking about games where you craft knives and hammers and glass and I'm talking about games where you craft armor and weapons and clothes and catapults, etc.
We are not talking about the same type of game. Where you gather your mats and get your recipe and ... dun dun DUNNNNNN! Make a hammer.
lol...funny you should use those examples
because in Wurm YOU CAN MAKE CATAPULTS BUT YOU NEED A CRAVING KNIFE!!!!!!!!!!! among many other tools.
so yeah the problem is you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is bad because it doesnt have what you want in ALL ASPECTS OF IT...rather than 'some' aspects of it.
this is why we dont agree and your failure to give a concerte example is doing you a lot of harm here because its functionally rediciously
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
They don't. Crafting needs to be tailored to specific game, within two major "concepts" of crafting I layed out before.
Trying to implement SWG or any other mini-game/RNG or similar systems into EVE Online would "kill" the game. Similarily, vice versa applies.
when I break down some of these ideas to a functional level I can not do it. It makes zero sense.
example: RNG So if I am thinking I am building a wall and I need a wall is it going to randomly build me a cart?
Materials dont matter" Ok so how do I start crafting, just hit a button and it randomly makes something and I need zero materials?
Mini game: so I hit the button and then I get a moving bar and I have to hit it at the right time to then get a random thing that might be a wall or a boat we just dont know
that is the entire crafting engine? its retarded
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
would someone PLEASE break down in detail the creation of a crafting Knife in what they see as an ideal crafting system instead of spending count pages in abstractions.
There is no point talking about anything more detailed than "abstractions", concepts....
I think there very much is a need to do that here, because all these clever ideas do not translate at all when one wants to make a crafting knife
is it:
1. supposed to be random? maybe I get a knife maybe I get a painting? 2. is it supposed to not have any materials required because we dont like matertials? 3. is the quality supposed to be completely random regardless of character skill? 4. is 90% of the process of making a knife just supposed to be clicking the mouse at the right time when the scale goes up or am I supposed to move the mouse back and forth until its cut?
these questions matter very much
1. No, there is no crafting system anywhere where randomness works like that. If you are trying to craft a particular kind of knife the maximum spread of results is going to be: awesome knife, normal knife, derp knife, fail (only time lost), and total fail (some or all materials lost). In many cases the spread of results will be smaller than that because some games don't have variable quality items, some games don't have failure possible, some games don't have failure without material loss, and some games don't have failure with material loss. Many games limit randomness to the stats on weapons and armor only. A crafted wall might have variable durability, but it's unlikely to be random in any other way. Though I would be amused if crafted walls came out randomized colors.
1a. A minor exception is a system like paint mixing in ATiTD where each character's results are randomized when the character is created, but are consistent for that character throughout the game. This means that if player A discovers a recipe (5 iron + 5 clay =saddle brown paint), another player might try the recipe but instead discover (5 iron + 5 clay = chocolate brown paint). But the recipe doesn't produce random results - Player A always gets saddle brown and Player B always gets chocolate brown.
1b. Another minor exception is a wishing well appliance. This is a gambling activity within a game - throw any item (or in some games, money) into the wishing well, get a random item out. To me this counts as crafting but to you it probably isn't crafting.
2. A game might include a gold sink activity which involves paying money to NPCs for crafting services or crafting materials that aren't available in the world. Or, a game may have arcade minigames where the player puts in money to play, and may win prizes for high scores. I'd consider this a crafting process, you may not. But, outside of these two minor cases, there is no crafting system where no materials at all are required as input. Normal crafting may require a single material, a fixed recipe of specific materials, or a flexible recipe with slots for material types.
3. There are crafting systems where quality is random and unrelated to player skill - WoW's, for example. I don't regard this as an ideal crafting system, and for the most part it's incompatible with minigames, but it's fairly common in existing games. Others in the thread might like this type of crafting system. So the "supposed to" part of your question is a matter of opinion. Minigame systems may include randomness in the minigame, such as the way a game of solitare puts the cards in random places. But usually the player's score translates directly to the resulting item, no randomness at that stage.
4. The type of "minigame" where the only thing the player does is try to click at the right time is TERRIBLE. It's a degenerate case of minigame design, and I spit on it. Neither should you be sawing back and forth with that mouse - that's not a game, there is no skill involved and no score other than how long it takes you. A minigame could be a sliding tile puzzle, a game of solitaire with playing cards, a match-3 game, a game of tetris, a level of a platformer like Super Mario, a level of a rhythm game like Guitar Hero, etc. The most basic true minigame would be those fishing games where you have to react to the fish's movement by pulling one direction or the other. Not the most fun minigame ever, but at least it has a scoring system and loss and win conditions so it's legitimately a game.
As far as an ideal method of making a crafting knife, fiiiiine. Here's my attempt:
Making a crafting knife does not require any appliances, so the process would be activated either by clicking on the avatar (only possible in a 3rd person mouse-controlled game) or through the GUI menu. This would bring up a crafting interface where the player would select the crafting knife recipe. I would choose the kind of recipe which had 3 slots for ingredient type: blade, handle, connector. [But this would be modified according to the specifics of the game, it's not an absolute answer.]
In the crafting interface the game would display the items in the player's inventory which were acceptable to each slot. Blade options might include bone shard, broken glass, obsidian flake, flint flake, cold-hammered copper blade, cast iron blade, etc. A similar list would be available for the two other items. Once the player has selected the three materials they want to "pay" for the knife, they press the button to start the minigame.
Various minigames would work here. If we wanted to connect the minigame to the physical activity of assembling a knife, we might want a challenge where the player has to split their attention between pinning one thing in place while advancing another thing toward a goal. So perhaps a wack-a-mole game would be a nice example. There is a normal wack-a-mole field with "moles" the player must keep suppressed, and if this task is failed the crafting attempt fails. Not actually moles the animal, they would be substituted with something relevant to the task and the game theme. Perhaps they are little cartoony demons that want all crafting to fail. Or perhaps each mole hole is a piece of wood or stone, each mole is a crack that starts to develop in the wood or stone, and instead of hammering the player is slapping the connector material (glue, string, etc) on the cracks to make them go away. Then there is a second target that requires the player's attention which represents pushing the handle and blade together, and has to be hit X times to successfully complete the craft (before the player fails at suppressing the cracks(moles)). The final score will include: amount of damage done by "moles", number of "moles" wacked, and time taken to hit the secondary target the required number of times (or failure to do so). These three numbers are then used to calculate the stats of the knife produced. The player chooses whether to accept the stats or to retry. The end.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I am sorry can we start i am reading your post and I am getting very confused.
What I am asking is NOT 'how are games now' or 'what games do this'
I am asking if you are to sit down with a blank sheet of paper and create a crafting system how would creating a knife work for your system and would it be different from what is around now.
lets reboot if you dont mind
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
..Making a crafting knife does not require any appliances, so the process would be activated either by clicking on the avatar (only possible in a 3rd person mouse-controlled game) or through the GUI menu..
reading and editing currently
what am I clicking? do I have to have materials to make this or do I just make it with no materials? why is 3rd person at all relevant?
do I have to have the skill? what am I using to make the knife?
sorry to be random we should start with one post with nothing else in the post other than your description so we can break it down for my understanding. sorry I missed it before
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
sunandshadow I know you spent a good amount of time on your post and when I read it I really just didnt have time to digest it.
I dont as much now either but I think because my gut tells me from reading it that perhaps what I was asking was not understood to begin with. So with that bit of lazyness on my part again I am sorry for not digesting the entire post.
With that said what I have read from many in this thread about what would make a good crafting engine already exists in heavy crafting games. RNG as a key example already exists in many if not most if not all crafting engines. I personally have never played one that doesnt have that element. so this is part of my confusion.
I am also confused if materials and reciepes dont matter then if we take them out how would a crafting system work? aruging over if painting is or is not a craft or if intrest in recipes is or is not a core part of a crafters intrest is also les important.
getting a feel for how a NEW imagined system could work in a way that is radically different from how it works now would help out a lot I think.
The reason I say 'radically' is that some here are suggesting most crafting systems are not good which is a poinr I disagree with.
Would it help if I started with an example of creating a carving knife and why I would need to make a carving knife in first place?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
We don't call things "rare" just because there's something produced in greater quantity. We call things rare because they are scarce. If something is subject to waning scarcity, then it can not be rare.
That's why things like Diamonds are artificially regulated in order to maintain scarcity. Because diamonds in real life aren't actually all that rare. Instead, we have to control their flow into the marketplace in order to create a false scarcity.
Game's aren't particularly capable of artificial scarcity because most systems as they have been implemented tend to be subject to a lot inflation over time. It's impossible as a result for an item to actually be rare, as inflation renders the availability of most all goods and resources abundant.
Also you seem fond of using the word "fallacy" even though is has no logical application to the argument. The statements are fallacious and they describe the actual mechanics of probability and the resulting consequences on the status of "rare" items accurately.
Besides which market saturation and lacking item decay only further proves my point right, so you can bring them up if you want, but that's rather counter-intuitive for you to be providing points that disprove your claim.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Why do you even argue then, are you just another Nariu doing it for the lulz?
Your argument is that a rare item is apparently rare for no reason. When I give very clear forces defining how such "rare" items lack any semblance of the definition of rarity, you LOLing all over the place does nothing to offer any kind of sensible argument. All you keep doing is guffawing and taunting without pausing to give a rational statement on the matter.
That's not even an argument, that's just you trolling threads.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It goes like this:
1) Small chance to craft an items makes it rare.
2) But with time, there will be many of those items on the market.
1) Yes, but they will be still rare because the chance to craft them remains the same. How many of them will be avaiable on the market is entirely different matter.
2) You are not refuting my point that with time, those items won't be no longer rare.
...
But then 1000 players decide to become crafters. Each one of them produces 1 rare item X on average in week 2.
So by week 3, item X is considerably less "rare" in the game population.
By 100 weeks after launch, every player has an item X, so the item is now "common" in the game population.
For the crafter, the item is still "rare", because the individual crafter will only produce ONE of them per week on average.
But after 100 weeks, nobody in the game population cares anymore...
Hence the talk about probability and statistics. When there's a fixed and positive potential for something to happen, then it's will almost assuredly happen in duplicate as the sample size increases. Not even reaching the point of talking about selling goods on the market, this simply means that unless only one person on a server is crafting items there's more than one "rare" and that ratio is rapidly degenerating for said item.
"How many of them will be available" is exactly a point of concern since rare items are by definition a scarce commodity. If they lack in scarcity, they are not rare.
Just because you have a bunch of plastic bracelets does not mean those stainless steel one's are "rare".
Just because there is a lot of grass does not mean trees are "rare".
Just because you flooded the market with useless gear does not mean the only gear people actually trade is "rare".
And it goes on and on.
Emphasized with Gekko's example, individual production of a good can be argued to be "rare" from an isolated perspective, but on any practical scale and to the actual play of the game, the production volume of the item is high enough that there is no observable rarity.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
What you are talking about is lack of resource faucets - items are entering the system but not leaving it, thus resources and products accumulate within.
It has NOTHING to do with RNG in crafting, it will happen to all items regardless of RNG.
In RL, a craftsman can spend months hand-crafting a specific item using "rare" materials. That item will be more or less unique in the world, and may accordingly fetch a very high price if it is desired by the wealthy.
In MMO's, the rarity of an item is determined purely by RNG. In most MMO's, those "rare" items never leave the game once created, unless the owner stops playing (and doesn't sell the item).
Items in MMO's are almost never unique, multiple copies of "rare" items are identical. All crafters produce exactly the same items from the same recipes (exceptions do exist, but not in any mainstream games). There is no barrier to entry for MMO crafters, time is the only factor.
Regardless of how small the RNG chance of an item dropping or being crafted, if a large enough population of players are constantly attempting to obtain these "rare" items, the items lose their perceived VALUE as more and more of them accumulate in the game world.
You chose to not acknowledge any of that in favor of attempting a tangent hammering on....well, nothing.
The best counterargument you could come up with was misquoting a fallacy that doesn't even properly apply since the "vast majority of common items" both 1) have no bearing on how common or rare the other item is and 2) are generally taken out of the system by vendoring or scrapping for parts. The selective memory fallacy just does not apply.
It also fails to invalidate the point on the probability of rares spawning.
Fact is the only way in which one can claim something is rare is by artificially isolating it and using relative statements instead of addressing it's actual presence and rate of production as compared to it's consumption.
The reality is that the event to spawn the rare is being triggered by a multitude of player in repetition in most any game referable. Meaning, in the reality of pretty much any game you wish to quote on, the scarcity of a rare item is going to not be, well, rare, because before it even makes it to the market you have to deal with the rate of production and probability enforced by RNG kicking out the product.
Just because there is an item is even less rare, does not make a commonly produced product rare.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The item is called rare because it's been engineered to have a longer initial curve to obtain, but because of the nature of MMOs and the nature of RNG, there is no ability for that item to actually exist in scarcity.
Large reason for this tangent has been that I early on said RNG is incapable of generating such scarcity and that a system that utilizes player choice generally shows considerably more bias so that certain items are naturally scarce/rare by virtue of simply not being created.
Now this is generally because those combinations for items are disfavored, meaning people simply don't choose to produce them because there is no real market for them. It's essentially cutting out the swathe of vendor trash produced by an RNG system while in pursuit of the same products.
But that also opens opportunity depending on the rest of a game's design.
A lot of the argument has been predicated on the assumption of a WoW-like gear system.
But if you instead setup gear as a much less vertically scaling concept and instead act as a point-offset? A system wherein you trade attributes like speed, damage, penetration, etc back and forth based on weapon and equipment used to push favored stats while sacrificing others and subsequently "specializing" and defining your character role through re-balancing attributes.
Suddenly the ability to selectively craft any variety of equipment becomes both meaningful and whether or not one can pick the specific type of item they craft becomes all the more important since gear would be able to have a much broader ranger of usefulness, with more viable options and demands to fulfill than whatever finite options offer the highest stats.
Rarity then becomes a much more flexible matter, and item scarcity actually is an element of consequence since it indicates what play styles might be uncommon and therefore favorable in utilizing for competitive play.
RNG simply can't work with that. If you can't predictably make the gear to fill out the FOTM or just regular demands because the system is randomizing you into a lot of underutilized options, then both you as a seller suffer and the market suffers from shortages of desired goods.
It works for treadmills and that's about it.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
would someone PLEASE break down in detail the creation of a crafting Knife in what they see as an ideal crafting system instead of spending count pages in abstractions.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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~I am Many~
"no, you wouldn't make hammering nails more interesting" because there really is no need. Could you make alchemy more interesting by modulating heat, choosing when to add materials (and materials you choose and possibly switch out for other materials) etc? I already mentioned the game "Enigmo" which is just manipulating fluids and it's extremely fun.
I already said that in making a house you would pick your materials, either gather them yourself or buy them off of others and then you can place the walls/rooms any way you like, perhaps with some stipulations on where certain walls must be, etc.
Then you can start placing the walls, placing appropriate floor coverings, etc. There needs to be nothing more than that. When making armor or weapons there can be design and attributes or even negatives to balance out better positives.
I've seen a crafting system where you melt the ingots swing over the molten metal and pour it into a form and I actually found that sort of fun. That was in Dark Messiah.
each type of crafting can cover more or less detail depending upon what it is. They don't all have to have the exact same steps or the same detail if it's not needed.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
- The act of crafting remains simple: have items -> press button.
- Time is a significant component, but almost never locks you down. Even though it takes 30 minutes for those bricks to bake in your kiln, you're not forced to sit there idle.
- Most crafted items are components of other items. The bricks you crafted weren't the end product, merely one step along the way.
- Quality is a significant component. While your bricks were baking you went off to gather higher quality mud, which you baked into higher quality bricks, which let you construct a second higher-quality kiln, which improved the quality of everything you baked in that kiln.
- The result is plate-spinning: your productivity is directly related to your ability to keep all these things in motion at once and there are so many things to keep running that nobody would play the game perfectly (and therefore everyone would feel like they're steadily improving at mastery.)
Factorio is another style that was fun for me. It was mostly similar to the above, except instead of spinning all the plates yourself you created an elaborate series of conveyors and factories and tech labs to spin the plates for you. I sort of feel like Don't Starve Together is worth mentioning too, but its fun doesn't rest as squarely on its crafting (and so the crafting itself isn't as interesting as these other games.)"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
is it:
1. supposed to be random? maybe I get a knife maybe I get a painting?
2. is it supposed to not have any materials required because we dont like matertials?
3. is the quality supposed to be completely random regardless of character skill?
4. is 90% of the process of making a knife just supposed to be clicking the mouse at the right time when the scale goes up or am I supposed to move the mouse back and forth until its cut?
these questions matter very much
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you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is TERRIBLE because it doesnt have minigames.
You are not saying PART of crafting and SOME parts of crafting can be made better with minigames.
the second statement I agree with 100%, the first I think is pure bullshit
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
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Trying to implement SWG or any other mini-game/RNG or similar systems into EVE Online would "kill" the game. Similarily, vice versa applies.
(and I've already addressed this) You think we are talking about games where you craft knives and hammers and glass and I'm talking about games where you craft armor and weapons and clothes and catapults, etc.
We are not talking about the same type of game. Where you gather your mats and get your recipe and ... dun dun DUNNNNNN! Make a hammer.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
because in Wurm YOU CAN MAKE CATAPULTS BUT YOU NEED A CRAVING KNIFE!!!!!!!!!!! among many other tools.
so yeah the problem is you are saying ALL OF CRAFTING is bad because it doesnt have what you want in ALL ASPECTS OF IT...rather than 'some' aspects of it.
this is why we dont agree and your failure to give a concerte example is doing you a lot of harm here because its functionally rediciously
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example:
RNG
So if I am thinking I am building a wall and I need a wall is it going to randomly build me a cart?
Materials dont matter"
Ok so how do I start crafting, just hit a button and it randomly makes something and I need zero materials?
Mini game:
so I hit the button and then I get a moving bar and I have to hit it at the right time to then get a random thing that might be a wall or a boat we just dont know
that is the entire crafting engine? its retarded
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1a. A minor exception is a system like paint mixing in ATiTD where each character's results are randomized when the character is created, but are consistent for that character throughout the game. This means that if player A discovers a recipe (5 iron + 5 clay =saddle brown paint), another player might try the recipe but instead discover (5 iron + 5 clay = chocolate brown paint). But the recipe doesn't produce random results - Player A always gets saddle brown and Player B always gets chocolate brown.
1b. Another minor exception is a wishing well appliance. This is a gambling activity within a game - throw any item (or in some games, money) into the wishing well, get a random item out. To me this counts as crafting but to you it probably isn't crafting.
2. A game might include a gold sink activity which involves paying money to NPCs for crafting services or crafting materials that aren't available in the world. Or, a game may have arcade minigames where the player puts in money to play, and may win prizes for high scores. I'd consider this a crafting process, you may not. But, outside of these two minor cases, there is no crafting system where no materials at all are required as input. Normal crafting may require a single material, a fixed recipe of specific materials, or a flexible recipe with slots for material types.
3. There are crafting systems where quality is random and unrelated to player skill - WoW's, for example. I don't regard this as an ideal crafting system, and for the most part it's incompatible with minigames, but it's fairly common in existing games. Others in the thread might like this type of crafting system. So the "supposed to" part of your question is a matter of opinion. Minigame systems may include randomness in the minigame, such as the way a game of solitare puts the cards in random places. But usually the player's score translates directly to the resulting item, no randomness at that stage.
4. The type of "minigame" where the only thing the player does is try to click at the right time is TERRIBLE. It's a degenerate case of minigame design, and I spit on it. Neither should you be sawing back and forth with that mouse - that's not a game, there is no skill involved and no score other than how long it takes you. A minigame could be a sliding tile puzzle, a game of solitaire with playing cards, a match-3 game, a game of tetris, a level of a platformer like Super Mario, a level of a rhythm game like Guitar Hero, etc. The most basic true minigame would be those fishing games where you have to react to the fish's movement by pulling one direction or the other. Not the most fun minigame ever, but at least it has a scoring system and loss and win conditions so it's legitimately a game.
As far as an ideal method of making a crafting knife, fiiiiine. Here's my attempt:
Making a crafting knife does not require any appliances, so the process would be activated either by clicking on the avatar (only possible in a 3rd person mouse-controlled game) or through the GUI menu. This would bring up a crafting interface where the player would select the crafting knife recipe. I would choose the kind of recipe which had 3 slots for ingredient type: blade, handle, connector. [But this would be modified according to the specifics of the game, it's not an absolute answer.]
In the crafting interface the game would display the items in the player's inventory which were acceptable to each slot. Blade options might include bone shard, broken glass, obsidian flake, flint flake, cold-hammered copper blade, cast iron blade, etc. A similar list would be available for the two other items. Once the player has selected the three materials they want to "pay" for the knife, they press the button to start the minigame.
Various minigames would work here. If we wanted to connect the minigame to the physical activity of assembling a knife, we might want a challenge where the player has to split their attention between pinning one thing in place while advancing another thing toward a goal. So perhaps a wack-a-mole game would be a nice example. There is a normal wack-a-mole field with "moles" the player must keep suppressed, and if this task is failed the crafting attempt fails. Not actually moles the animal, they would be substituted with something relevant to the task and the game theme. Perhaps they are little cartoony demons that want all crafting to fail. Or perhaps each mole hole is a piece of wood or stone, each mole is a crack that starts to develop in the wood or stone, and instead of hammering the player is slapping the connector material (glue, string, etc) on the cracks to make them go away. Then there is a second target that requires the player's attention which represents pushing the handle and blade together, and has to be hit X times to successfully complete the craft (before the player fails at suppressing the cracks(moles)). The final score will include: amount of damage done by "moles", number of "moles" wacked, and time taken to hit the secondary target the required number of times (or failure to do so). These three numbers are then used to calculate the stats of the knife produced. The player chooses whether to accept the stats or to retry. The end.
I am sorry can we start i am reading your post and I am getting very confused.
What I am asking is NOT 'how are games now' or 'what games do this'
I am asking if you are to sit down with a blank sheet of paper and create a crafting system how would creating a knife work for your system and would it be different from what is around now.
lets reboot if you dont mind
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what am I clicking? do I have to have materials to make this or do I just make it with no materials? why is 3rd person at all relevant? do I have to have the skill? what am I using to make the knife? sorry to be random we should start with one post with nothing else in the post other than your description so we can break it down for my understanding. sorry I missed it before
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With that said what I have read from many in this thread about what would make a good crafting engine already exists in heavy crafting games. RNG as a key example already exists in many if not most if not all crafting engines. I personally have never played one that doesnt have that element. so this is part of my confusion.
I am also confused if materials and reciepes dont matter then if we take them out how would a crafting system work? aruging over if painting is or is not a craft or if intrest in recipes is or is not a core part of a crafters intrest is also les important. getting a feel for how a NEW imagined system could work in a way that is radically different from how it works now would help out a lot I think.
The reason I say 'radically' is that some here are suggesting most crafting systems are not good which is a poinr I disagree with. Would it help if I started with an example of creating a carving knife and why I would need to make a carving knife in first place?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me