We could call them "quests" and they could provide a centralized progression currency called "XP" that advances your character as you complete a lot of them!
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm one who dislikes the achievement infiltration. What they do is "highly suggest" what to do in the game, NOT do what you want.
"If I kill 15 more skeletons, I get X achievement." "If I discover 10 more places, I get Y achievement."
These lead a player to do things artificially, not naturally.
It's an interesting change-up, but I would avoid it.
Is it more unnatural than a sliver of a world that funnels you through quest hubs that you must do? Many times generic quest that go against the lore of your character.
I have yet to do an MMORPG that doesn't make you do something highly suggested whether it's quest or grinding mobs. I rather do what I want when I want and be rewarded for that action than be forced to do quest or grind mobs.
We could call them "quests" and they could provide a centralized progression currency called "XP" that advances your character as you complete a lot of them!
It's not really what I am talking about. You could have quest force you do something on a vertical progression trail but this is more about freedom of choice. If you never wanted to do a quest you could keep them to a minimum and just raiding. More raiding you do the more perks you get for use while raiding.
We could call them "quests" and they could provide a centralized progression currency called "XP" that advances your character as you complete a lot of them!
It's not really what I am talking about. You could have quest force you do something on a vertical progression trail but this is more about freedom of choice. If you never wanted to do a quest you could keep them to a minimum and just raiding. More raiding you do the more perks you get for use while raiding.
You'd need to traipse through hell for that fire resistance buff you mentioned earlier.
Then kill 100 of whatever mob type the raid boss happens to be to get the bonus before raid.
Your system would not work like you envision it. It would cause people to do very specific things to get the achievement and advance.
It's not really what I am talking about. You could have quest force you do something on a vertical progression trail but this is more about freedom of choice. If you never wanted to do a quest you could keep them to a minimum and just raiding. More raiding you do the more perks you get for use while raiding.
Why would you bring up freedom of choice? My system is objectively more free:
Your idea: want to increase sword skill? Well you have to do this one specific thing to earn the Sword Skill Achievement.
My point about quests: want to increase sword skill? Well you can do ANY quest in the game your level to level up and then dump more points in sword skill. It's up to you which quests you do. You can even just grind mobs or explore or craft to earn XP most of the time.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
We could call them "quests" and they could provide a centralized progression currency called "XP" that advances your character as you complete a lot of them!
It's not really what I am talking about. You could have quest force you do something on a vertical progression trail but this is more about freedom of choice. If you never wanted to do a quest you could keep them to a minimum and just raiding. More raiding you do the more perks you get for use while raiding.
You'd need to traipse through hell for that fire resistance buff you mentioned earlier.
Then kill 100 of whatever mob type the raid boss happens to be to get the bonus before raid.
Your system would not work like you envision it. It would cause people to do very specific things to get the achievement and advance.
That is what I want... players making there own choices how, when and where they play. You want to grind you can. You want quest you can.
It's not really what I am talking about. You could have quest force you do something on a vertical progression trail but this is more about freedom of choice. If you never wanted to do a quest you could keep them to a minimum and just raiding. More raiding you do the more perks you get for use while raiding.
Why would you bring up freedom of choice? My system is objectively more free:
Your idea: want to increase sword skill? Well you have to do this one specific thing to earn the Sword Skill Achievement.
My point about quests: want to increase sword skill? Well you can do ANY quest in the game your level to level up and then dump more points in sword skill. It's up to you which quests you do. You can even just grind mobs or explore or craft to earn XP most of the time.
No you are limited to questing and basically a very narrow branch of questing your level. You can get kills grinding, exploring, questing, dungeon runs or raids.
No you are limited to questing and basically a very narrow branch of questing your level. You can get kills grinding, exploring, questing, dungeon runs or raids.
How can you get kills?
Killing
How can you get XP?
Killing
Crafting
Exploring
Gathering
Questing
Want to get kills with an activity that isn't kills? Tough. You can't. No freedom. Want to get XP with an activity that isn't kills? Go for it. Freedom.
Why would you even bother arguing against this?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"Progression through Achievements" sound like what SW:ToR has been doing and is doubling-down on with their new event Light-side vs Dark-side and it has all the veterans(playing since launch) ready to quit.
Most people don't like that kind of system, they want to do progression through anything and apply their XP to whatever they want.
The best kid of system is the one that only gives XP (or whatever) for completing quests or objectives. It doesn't matter how you completed it and you don't get anything along the way. If there is a quest to retrieve a magic object from a tower full of undead with a mage lord boss, it doesn't matter if you snuck through it, killed everything or used some elaborate ruse to get the object and get out.
You also should consider that not everything needs to be combat oriented unfortunately all MMOs are.
No you are limited to questing and basically a very narrow branch of questing your level. You can get kills grinding, exploring, questing, dungeon runs or raids.
How can you get kills?
Killing
How can you get XP?
Killing
Crafting
Exploring
Gathering
Questing
Want to get kills with an activity that isn't kills? Tough. You can't. No freedom. Want to get XP with an activity that isn't kills? Go for it. Freedom.
Why would you even bother arguing against this?
Because what game has meaningful experience outside of questing? Even grinding has lost meaningful experience most MMORPG.
And what I am proposing you will gain perks through what you do. If you craft you get perks for crafting. If you explore you get perks for exploring. If you kill you gain combat skills in what you fight with. You raid you get perks for raiding.
Most people don't like that kind of system, they want to do progression through anything and apply their XP to whatever they want.
The best kid of system is the one that only gives XP (or whatever) for completing quests or objectives. It doesn't matter how you completed it and you don't get anything along the way. If there is a quest to retrieve a magic object from a tower full of undead with a mage lord boss, it doesn't matter if you snuck through it, killed everything or used some elaborate ruse to get the object and get out.
You also should consider that not everything needs to be combat oriented unfortunately all MMOs are.
Well, I never said it was only combat. Essentially what you do get better at. Kill focus was where this was taken by others. The focus isn't vast vertical progression in the first place.
No you are limited to questing and basically a very narrow branch of questing your level. You can get kills grinding, exploring, questing, dungeon runs or raids.
How can you get kills?
Killing
How can you get XP?
Killing
Crafting
Exploring
Gathering
Questing
Want to get kills with an activity that isn't kills? Tough. You can't. No freedom. Want to get XP with an activity that isn't kills? Go for it. Freedom.
Why would you even bother arguing against this?
This is an illogical statement.
You're argument seems to be established on the false assumption that questing is the only way to give incentive and reward players for committing to a variety of actions.
If one used an "achievement" wherein each activity is simply tracked (and each activity offers it's own xp rate) and has an XP bonus pool that gives a bonus return on completing activities, then it offers the same spectrum of choice if nor more choice than any directed questing mechanic would offer.
To mitigate grinding you can do something as simple as implement diminishing returns on the bonus XP pool to push players to sample and cycle through a variety of activities during play.
Thing is, people are pressed to doing most things artificially one way or another. Traditional rails questing forces you into a narrow band and cycle of activities in the most obvious manner, while sprinkling little icons on your map to discover is one of the less obvious, but still ultimately incentive-driven functions.
The point of erring towards an "achievement" system is because while, yes, it does create an artificial incentive to do most things, it's a more natural course than being explicitly directed to do specific things as well as there being no specific obligation for players to do everything.
Perhaps it'd be good to get away from the "achievement" name though, as with this type of progression mechanic it's not about hunting badges for a collection, it's about the mechanics that enable player progression.
Extended point being, it's a system that allows other mechanics to be more free-form as well.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I'm one who dislikes the achievement infiltration. What they do is "highly suggest" what to do in the game, NOT do what you want.
"If I kill 15 more skeletons, I get X achievement." "If I discover 10 more places, I get Y achievement."
These lead a player to do things artificially, not naturally.
It's an interesting change-up, but I would avoid it.
Is it more unnatural than a sliver of a world that funnels you through quest hubs that you must do? Many times generic quest that go against the lore of your character.
I have yet to do an MMORPG that doesn't make you do something highly suggested whether it's quest or grinding mobs. I rather do what I want when I want and be rewarded for that action than be forced to do quest or grind mobs.
Isn't that really the same thing? You have an achievement that requires certain "grinding" activities. After you grind, you get the reward: An Achievement and level. I'm not seeing the huge difference here, except for presentation.
I do agree that almost all MMOs have a tendency to "steer players" where the developers want them to go. Whether it be through quests, or skill grinds, or now achievements, the carrot is in place.
What we (at least I) need is a living world where players act like inhabitants instead of video game players.
No you are limited to questing and basically a very narrow branch of questing your level. You can get kills grinding, exploring, questing, dungeon runs or raids.
How can you get kills?
Killing
How can you get XP?
Killing
Crafting
Exploring
Gathering
Questing
Want to get kills with an activity that isn't kills? Tough. You can't. No freedom. Want to get XP with an activity that isn't kills? Go for it. Freedom.
Why would you even bother arguing against this?
Because what game has meaningful experience outside of questing? Even grinding has lost meaningful experience most MMORPG.
And what I am proposing you will gain perks through what you do. If you craft you get perks for crafting. If you explore you get perks for exploring. If you kill you gain combat skills in what you fight with. You raid you get perks for raiding.
What you are talking about is a type skill based system. Did you know that?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I have been pitching for something similar for years, but instead of getting achivement points for killing a certain number I want to award them the first time you kill specific bosses, clearing dungeons and so on.
It gets less grindy, killing 10 000 goblins isn't hard, people will just grind the easiest ones in the game. Killing all 10 of the toughest goblin bosses can be hard though, even if you can comnplete it faster.
Doing the exact same thing over and over gets boring after a while and killing certain number of mobs is even worse. Instead, encourage the players to explore the entire game.
Because what game has meaningful experience outside of questing? Even grinding has lost meaningful experience most MMORPG.
And what I am proposing you will gain perks through what you do. If you craft you get perks for crafting. If you explore you get perks for exploring. If you kill you gain combat skills in what you fight with. You raid you get perks for raiding.
Truth is not swayed by your subjective valuation of these activities.
You're arguing "freedom" in a system you can only advance in with kills. I'm arguing "freedom" in a system you can advance in with your choice of kills, quests, crafting, and exploration.
If two or more of those activities provide any XP whatsoever, then objectively that system has provided players with more freedom than a kill-only system.
Why are you so fond of arguing against objective truth? It's the truth! What possible benefit do you get by denying the truth?
Keep in mind that freedom is freedom and variety is variety, and we've been talking about freedom. This means it's just not relevant to mention that you craft to get crafting perks (because you lack freedom there too, so while crafting might be a different activity (and therefore represent variety) it doesn't let the player choose what to do to advance (and therefore it isn't freedom.)
Also achievements are quests, so describing how they force players to partake in a variety of activities literally disputes one of our earlier discussions where you tried to pretend quests didn't result in a greater variety.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"You're arguing "freedom" in a system you can only advance in with kills. I'm arguing "freedom" in a system you can advance in with your choice of kills, quests, crafting, and exploration."
First of all, if you are following a quest chain you are not choosing what you do.
Secondly, an achievement-styled system does not have to exclusively reward XP to a specific activity, but can grant global XP as well as specified perks and skill points. Moreover, it can be applied to all activities just the same as any other mechanic, not just killing.
You can even see in his quote though that with the specific iteration he suggested, your rewards are varied and apply for a variety of skills used, not just kills.
Quite literally, the post you quoted proves your response is nonsense because you are establishing an argument that doesn't exist.
As for "achievements are quests", that's a pointless tangent. Ver stated his point in relation to quest hubs and gave good enough reference to the cycle of quest activities as they exist in present themepark style MMOs.
Quests don't result in greater activity. All they are is a mechanic for providing players incentive for the activities that exist in the game. Meaning, there is the same variety of options in a game without quests as there is with one that does have quests. The distinction is how quests are implemented to provide incentive and how narrow it confines the user experience based on it's reward track. Sure, you might have a loop of activities in a quest chain, but if that's the only option for what you're gonna be doing in order to garner the rewards then you've already been railroaded into doing specific things, not picking any sort of variety for yourself.
And that's where a free-form quest mechanic such as achievements has advantage over quest hubs. Being able to move between activities based on personal interest as well as based on something like a diminishing reward pool so that you are prompted to activity hop every so often so that you maximize your XP gains means you are going to experience variety that is largely of your choosing.
So lets not shout "objective truth" when you only have your opinion, yeah?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Because what game has meaningful experience outside of questing? Even grinding has lost meaningful experience most MMORPG.
And what I am proposing you will gain perks through what you do. If you craft you get perks for crafting. If you explore you get perks for exploring. If you kill you gain combat skills in what you fight with. You raid you get perks for raiding.
Truth is not swayed by your subjective valuation of these activities.
You're arguing "freedom" in a system you can only advance in with kills. I'm arguing "freedom" in a system you can advance in with your choice of kills, quests, crafting, and exploration.
If two or more of those activities provide any XP whatsoever, then objectively that system has provided players with more freedom than a kill-only system.
Why are you so fond of arguing against objective truth? It's the truth! What possible benefit do you get by denying the truth?
Keep in mind that freedom is freedom and variety is variety, and we've been talking about freedom. This means it's just not relevant to mention that you craft to get crafting perks (because you lack freedom there too, so while crafting might be a different activity (and therefore represent variety) it doesn't let the player choose what to do to advance (and therefore it isn't freedom.)
Also achievements are quests, so describing how they force players to partake in a variety of activities literally disputes one of our earlier discussions where you tried to pretend quests didn't result in a greater variety.
Do you even read what I write or you cherry picking. Combat related achievements are gained through combat. Crafting related achievements are gotten through crafting. Exploring related achievements are gotten through exploring. Questing and faction perks come through questing. You're given perks based on what you're doing even if its more than one thing like combat and questing/raiding/whatever.
Realistically give me a themepark MMORPG where you are truly advancing through exploration or crafting? You get no meaningful experience outside of questing and maybe dungeons which again is 90% combat. So yes you're advancing questing which is 90% combat. You're not even consistent because in 1 thread you're claiming MMORPG are based on combat and this one your claiming you're given freedom of activities. Which is it?
And then you're claiming their quest which then goes against you're whole claim in the thread. The reason the achievements are freedom because you're not on rails that quest hubs keep you on. You're going to do those quest 1-through when ever a dungeon is available in a themepark. You're going to do things your level range. You're going to be forced to do dailies or raid end game.
My idea with no levels you don't have to quest at all. You could grind out all the combat achievements. You could choose to only raid. You could choose to only do dungeons. You could choose to only craft. You could choose to only quest. You could choose to only explore. Pretty much you choose the activities you want to achieve or a mixture of any at anytime. I don't see how that's more restrictive than being forced to do the level treadmill and end game grind.
No you are limited to questing and basically a very narrow branch of questing your level. You can get kills grinding, exploring, questing, dungeon runs or raids.
How can you get kills?
Killing
How can you get XP?
Killing
Crafting
Exploring
Gathering
Questing
Want to get kills with an activity that isn't kills? Tough. You can't. No freedom. Want to get XP with an activity that isn't kills? Go for it. Freedom.
Why would you even bother arguing against this?
Because what game has meaningful experience outside of questing? Even grinding has lost meaningful experience most MMORPG.
And what I am proposing you will gain perks through what you do. If you craft you get perks for crafting. If you explore you get perks for exploring. If you kill you gain combat skills in what you fight with. You raid you get perks for raiding.
What you are talking about is a type skill based system. Did you know that?
You can break down the argument that skill based games are level based games as well. I think the approach is different because you're getting perks for things you are participating in, completing and doing.
Skill based games you generally either get experience for using or killing or questing. For example you get perks for completing a raid X number of times and you get perks for completing X number of raids. So while you're raiding have perk X for raiding that raid X number of times and you have could have perk Y for completing a variety of raids. But there is some overlap.
Do you even read what I write or you cherry picking. Combat related achievements are gained through combat. Crafting related achievements are gotten through crafting. Exploring related achievements are gotten through exploring. Questing and faction perks come through questing. You're given perks based on what you're doing even if its more than one thing like combat and questing/raiding/whatever.
Realistically give me a themepark MMORPG where you are truly advancing through exploration or crafting? You get no meaningful experience outside of questing and maybe dungeons which again is 90% combat. So yes you're advancing questing which is 90% combat. You're not even consistent because in 1 thread you're claiming MMORPG are based on combat and this one your claiming you're given freedom of activities. Which is it?
And then you're claiming their quest which then goes against you're whole claim in the thread. The reason the achievements are freedom because you're not on rails that quest hubs keep you on. You're going to do those quest 1-through when ever a dungeon is available in a themepark. You're going to do things your level range. You're going to be forced to do dailies or raid end game.
My idea with no levels you don't have to quest at all. You could grind out all the combat achievements. You could choose to only raid. You could choose to only do dungeons. You could choose to only craft. You could choose to only quest. You could choose to only explore. Pretty much you choose the activities you want to achieve or a mixture of any at anytime. I don't see how that's more restrictive than being forced to do the level treadmill and end game grind.
I read what you wrote. I responded to it. In your system the only way to get that next higher swordsman skill is sword kills. Nothing else. You have no freedom: swing the sword or get out.
Whereas with a centralized progression system (like XP+Level), you can choose the activities you like to advance. That's freedom. It's the player's choice.
Games like ESO and WOW allow you to gain XP through a variety of activities (including killing with non-swords). In ESO I can literally find three Skyshards (exploration) and invest the skill point into any of the 1h+Shield skills (one of which increases my weapon damage with 1h+Shield equipped.) In WOW, all XP is XP which contributes towards leveling (earning the weapon skill-equivalent of the game.)
Hopefully you can understand that "swing the sword or get out" is under no circumstance more freedom than anything you find in a centralized progression game. So any concerns over whether you can level entirely through exploration or entirely through crafting are completely irrelevant: your system involves no freedom and those other systems involve some freedom, and that's the end of the story. Without a redesign, your system is objectively less freedom than typical MMORPGs.
Calling a quest a quest doesn't "go against" anything I've said. "Do task, get reward" is a quest, no matter what you call it. But your specific blend of quest ties specific rewards to specific quests, which means there's distinctly less freedom than a typical quest system. In a typical quest system you can skip Quest B if you want and still advance. In your system Quest B is literally the only way to continue earning sword skill.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
"But your specific blend of quest ties specific rewards to specific quests, which means there's distinctly less freedom than a typical quest system. "
A "typical quest system" does exactly that, you have discreet set ot rewards in the form of gold, items, and experience.
The only distinction in this case is that the activities are not a directed goal, and you can instead seek reward from any variety of task in any sequence you desire. In a typical quest system you also gave a misstatement, as the reality is that many quests in typical systems exist in chains that if you skip a portion then you have to move on to the next entire chain, meaning you're missing a good bit.
Additionally, your entire nagging complaint is absolved as easily as adding a general XP rewards alongside specific skill rewards. We can look at Asheron's Call to a degree for that where people get XP specific to the task they focused on to progress as well as general XP pool to pad out the rest of their character as an even-handed model following a similar principle to Ver's idea.
And your weak complaint dissolves into nothing.
Worth noting too your examples from ESO was of an activity using achievement styled mechanics to grant an XP reward for artifact hunting.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Do you even read what I write or you cherry picking. Combat related achievements are gained through combat. Crafting related achievements are gotten through crafting. Exploring related achievements are gotten through exploring. Questing and faction perks come through questing. You're given perks based on what you're doing even if its more than one thing like combat and questing/raiding/whatever.
Realistically give me a themepark MMORPG where you are truly advancing through exploration or crafting? You get no meaningful experience outside of questing and maybe dungeons which again is 90% combat. So yes you're advancing questing which is 90% combat. You're not even consistent because in 1 thread you're claiming MMORPG are based on combat and this one your claiming you're given freedom of activities. Which is it?
And then you're claiming their quest which then goes against you're whole claim in the thread. The reason the achievements are freedom because you're not on rails that quest hubs keep you on. You're going to do those quest 1-through when ever a dungeon is available in a themepark. You're going to do things your level range. You're going to be forced to do dailies or raid end game.
My idea with no levels you don't have to quest at all. You could grind out all the combat achievements. You could choose to only raid. You could choose to only do dungeons. You could choose to only craft. You could choose to only quest. You could choose to only explore. Pretty much you choose the activities you want to achieve or a mixture of any at anytime. I don't see how that's more restrictive than being forced to do the level treadmill and end game grind.
I read what you wrote. I responded to it. In your system the only way to get that next higher swordsman skill is sword kills. Nothing else. You have no freedom: swing the sword or get out.
Whereas with a centralized progression system (like XP+Level), you can choose the activities you like to advance. That's freedom. It's the player's choice.
Games like ESO and WOW allow you to gain XP through a variety of activities (including killing with non-swords). In ESO I can literally find three Skyshards (exploration) and invest the skill point into any of the 1h+Shield skills (one of which increases my weapon damage with 1h+Shield equipped.) In WOW, all XP is XP which contributes towards leveling (earning the weapon skill-equivalent of the game.)
Hopefully you can understand that "swing the sword or get out" is under no circumstance more freedom than anything you find in a centralized progression game. So any concerns over whether you can level entirely through exploration or entirely through crafting are completely irrelevant: your system involves no freedom and those other systems involve some freedom, and that's the end of the story. Without a redesign, your system is objectively less freedom than typical MMORPGs.
Calling a quest a quest doesn't "go against" anything I've said. "Do task, get reward" is a quest, no matter what you call it. But your specific blend of quest ties specific rewards to specific quests, which means there's distinctly less freedom than a typical quest system. In a typical quest system you can skip Quest B if you want and still advance. In your system Quest B is literally the only way to continue earning sword skill.
You have the weirdest idea of freedom to the point that i think you either argue to argue or you have blinders on. It's laughable that you say a level gated, sequential content, developer forced content is freedom because you artificially get improvements by levels. Oh 10% give some activity like FedEx and find and pick. Yet a game that you literally could pick those same quest except in any order, grind, raid, dungeon run, craft, explore has no freedom.
So basically any game that doesn't give you quest experience and makes you do the activity to get better has no freedom. I guess Morrowind is the most restrictive game ever because it's skill based. I am sure everyone agrees.
You have the weirdest idea of freedom to the point that i think you either argue to argue or you have blinders on. It's laughable that you say a level gated, sequential content, developer forced content is freedom because you artificially get improvements by levels. Oh 10% give some activity like FedEx and find and pick. Yet a game that you literally could pick those same quest except in any order, grind, raid, dungeon run, craft, explore has no freedom.
So basically any game that doesn't give you quest experience and makes you do the activity to get better has no freedom. I guess Morrowind is the most restrictive game ever because it's skill based. I am sure everyone agrees.
In your game you MUST DO ONE SPECIFIC THING to increase sword skill. That's not freedom.
In regular games, you can do YOUR CHOICE of many things to increase sword skill. That's freedom.
The logic here is super obvious and super straight-forward, so all this nonsense about me having 'blinders' or arguing for argument's sake is nonsensical gibberish. The simple fact is that your system doesn't allow as much freedom as a centralized progression system.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
"If I kill 15 more skeletons, I get X achievement."
"If I discover 10 more places, I get Y achievement."
These lead a player to do things artificially, not naturally.
It's an interesting change-up, but I would avoid it.
VG
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I have yet to do an MMORPG that doesn't make you do something highly suggested whether it's quest or grinding mobs. I rather do what I want when I want and be rewarded for that action than be forced to do quest or grind mobs.
Then kill 100 of whatever mob type the raid boss happens to be to get the bonus before raid.
Your system would not work like you envision it. It would cause people to do very specific things to get the achievement and advance.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
- Killing
How can you get XP?- Killing
- Crafting
- Exploring
- Gathering
- Questing
Want to get kills with an activity that isn't kills? Tough. You can't. No freedom.Want to get XP with an activity that isn't kills? Go for it. Freedom.
Why would you even bother arguing against this?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Most people don't like that kind of system, they want to do progression through anything and apply their XP to whatever they want.
The best kid of system is the one that only gives XP (or whatever) for completing quests or objectives. It doesn't matter how you completed it and you don't get anything along the way. If there is a quest to retrieve a magic object from a tower full of undead with a mage lord boss, it doesn't matter if you snuck through it, killed everything or used some elaborate ruse to get the object and get out.
You also should consider that not everything needs to be combat oriented unfortunately all MMOs are.
http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/ An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
And what I am proposing you will gain perks through what you do. If you craft you get perks for crafting. If you explore you get perks for exploring. If you kill you gain combat skills in what you fight with. You raid you get perks for raiding.
You're argument seems to be established on the false assumption that questing is the only way to give incentive and reward players for committing to a variety of actions.
If one used an "achievement" wherein each activity is simply tracked (and each activity offers it's own xp rate) and has an XP bonus pool that gives a bonus return on completing activities, then it offers the same spectrum of choice if nor more choice than any directed questing mechanic would offer.
To mitigate grinding you can do something as simple as implement diminishing returns on the bonus XP pool to push players to sample and cycle through a variety of activities during play.
Thing is, people are pressed to doing most things artificially one way or another. Traditional rails questing forces you into a narrow band and cycle of activities in the most obvious manner, while sprinkling little icons on your map to discover is one of the less obvious, but still ultimately incentive-driven functions.
The point of erring towards an "achievement" system is because while, yes, it does create an artificial incentive to do most things, it's a more natural course than being explicitly directed to do specific things as well as there being no specific obligation for players to do everything.
Perhaps it'd be good to get away from the "achievement" name though, as with this type of progression mechanic it's not about hunting badges for a collection, it's about the mechanics that enable player progression.
Extended point being, it's a system that allows other mechanics to be more free-form as well.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I do agree that almost all MMOs have a tendency to "steer players" where the developers want them to go. Whether it be through quests, or skill grinds, or now achievements, the carrot is in place.
What we (at least I) need is a living world where players act like inhabitants instead of video game players.
VG
What you are talking about is a type skill based system. Did you know that?
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https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
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It gets less grindy, killing 10 000 goblins isn't hard, people will just grind the easiest ones in the game. Killing all 10 of the toughest goblin bosses can be hard though, even if you can comnplete it faster.
Doing the exact same thing over and over gets boring after a while and killing certain number of mobs is even worse. Instead, encourage the players to explore the entire game.
You're arguing "freedom" in a system you can only advance in with kills.
I'm arguing "freedom" in a system you can advance in with your choice of kills, quests, crafting, and exploration.
If two or more of those activities provide any XP whatsoever, then objectively that system has provided players with more freedom than a kill-only system.
Why are you so fond of arguing against objective truth? It's the truth! What possible benefit do you get by denying the truth?
Keep in mind that freedom is freedom and variety is variety, and we've been talking about freedom. This means it's just not relevant to mention that you craft to get crafting perks (because you lack freedom there too, so while crafting might be a different activity (and therefore represent variety) it doesn't let the player choose what to do to advance (and therefore it isn't freedom.)
Also achievements are quests, so describing how they force players to partake in a variety of activities literally disputes one of our earlier discussions where you tried to pretend quests didn't result in a greater variety.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I'm arguing "freedom" in a system you can advance in with your choice of kills, quests, crafting, and exploration."
Well that claim was already proven wrong.
First of all, if you are following a quest chain you are not choosing what you do.
Secondly, an achievement-styled system does not have to exclusively reward XP to a specific activity, but can grant global XP as well as specified perks and skill points. Moreover, it can be applied to all activities just the same as any other mechanic, not just killing.
You can even see in his quote though that with the specific iteration he suggested, your rewards are varied and apply for a variety of skills used, not just kills.
Quite literally, the post you quoted proves your response is nonsense because you are establishing an argument that doesn't exist.
As for "achievements are quests", that's a pointless tangent. Ver stated his point in relation to quest hubs and gave good enough reference to the cycle of quest activities as they exist in present themepark style MMOs.
Quests don't result in greater activity. All they are is a mechanic for providing players incentive for the activities that exist in the game. Meaning, there is the same variety of options in a game without quests as there is with one that does have quests. The distinction is how quests are implemented to provide incentive and how narrow it confines the user experience based on it's reward track. Sure, you might have a loop of activities in a quest chain, but if that's the only option for what you're gonna be doing in order to garner the rewards then you've already been railroaded into doing specific things, not picking any sort of variety for yourself.
And that's where a free-form quest mechanic such as achievements has advantage over quest hubs. Being able to move between activities based on personal interest as well as based on something like a diminishing reward pool so that you are prompted to activity hop every so often so that you maximize your XP gains means you are going to experience variety that is largely of your choosing.
So lets not shout "objective truth" when you only have your opinion, yeah?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Realistically give me a themepark MMORPG where you are truly advancing through exploration or crafting? You get no meaningful experience outside of questing and maybe dungeons which again is 90% combat. So yes you're advancing questing which is 90% combat. You're not even consistent because in 1 thread you're claiming MMORPG are based on combat and this one your claiming you're given freedom of activities. Which is it?
And then you're claiming their quest which then goes against you're whole claim in the thread. The reason the achievements are freedom because you're not on rails that quest hubs keep you on. You're going to do those quest 1-through when ever a dungeon is available in a themepark. You're going to do things your level range. You're going to be forced to do dailies or raid end game.
My idea with no levels you don't have to quest at all. You could grind out all the combat achievements. You could choose to only raid. You could choose to only do dungeons. You could choose to only craft. You could choose to only quest. You could choose to only explore. Pretty much you choose the activities you want to achieve or a mixture of any at anytime. I don't see how that's more restrictive than being forced to do the level treadmill and end game grind.
Skill based games you generally either get experience for using or killing or questing. For example you get perks for completing a raid X number of times and you get perks for completing X number of raids. So while you're raiding have perk X for raiding that raid X number of times and you have could have perk Y for completing a variety of raids. But there is some overlap.
Whereas with a centralized progression system (like XP+Level), you can choose the activities you like to advance. That's freedom. It's the player's choice.
Games like ESO and WOW allow you to gain XP through a variety of activities (including killing with non-swords). In ESO I can literally find three Skyshards (exploration) and invest the skill point into any of the 1h+Shield skills (one of which increases my weapon damage with 1h+Shield equipped.) In WOW, all XP is XP which contributes towards leveling (earning the weapon skill-equivalent of the game.)
Hopefully you can understand that "swing the sword or get out" is under no circumstance more freedom than anything you find in a centralized progression game. So any concerns over whether you can level entirely through exploration or entirely through crafting are completely irrelevant: your system involves no freedom and those other systems involve some freedom, and that's the end of the story. Without a redesign, your system is objectively less freedom than typical MMORPGs.
Calling a quest a quest doesn't "go against" anything I've said. "Do task, get reward" is a quest, no matter what you call it. But your specific blend of quest ties specific rewards to specific quests, which means there's distinctly less freedom than a typical quest system. In a typical quest system you can skip Quest B if you want and still advance. In your system Quest B is literally the only way to continue earning sword skill.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A "typical quest system" does exactly that, you have discreet set ot rewards in the form of gold, items, and experience.
The only distinction in this case is that the activities are not a directed goal, and you can instead seek reward from any variety of task in any sequence you desire. In a typical quest system you also gave a misstatement, as the reality is that many quests in typical systems exist in chains that if you skip a portion then you have to move on to the next entire chain, meaning you're missing a good bit.
Additionally, your entire nagging complaint is absolved as easily as adding a general XP rewards alongside specific skill rewards. We can look at Asheron's Call to a degree for that where people get XP specific to the task they focused on to progress as well as general XP pool to pad out the rest of their character as an even-handed model following a similar principle to Ver's idea.
And your weak complaint dissolves into nothing.
Worth noting too your examples from ESO was of an activity using achievement styled mechanics to grant an XP reward for artifact hunting.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Yet a game that you literally could pick those same quest except in any order, grind, raid, dungeon run, craft, explore has no freedom.
So basically any game that doesn't give you quest experience and makes you do the activity to get better has no freedom. I guess Morrowind is the most restrictive game ever because it's skill based. I am sure everyone agrees.
- In your game you MUST DO ONE SPECIFIC THING to increase sword skill. That's not freedom.
- In regular games, you can do YOUR CHOICE of many things to increase sword skill. That's freedom.
The logic here is super obvious and super straight-forward, so all this nonsense about me having 'blinders' or arguing for argument's sake is nonsensical gibberish. The simple fact is that your system doesn't allow as much freedom as a centralized progression system."What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver