Circumstantially. There is also, as already explained, non-linear forms of progression and game design that allow for player choice to be a component of the game, and the specialization of your character/class is done by the choices the player makes (and optionally "classes" are easy to replicate in most skill systems by simply implementing templates).
Challenge is built around offering a variety of activities that require a variety of skills and play options. Just as not every class is capable of doing everything, players ultimately will pick the types of skills and subsequent activities that interest them most.
Classes and levels "work as intended" in as narrow of a context as their own features allow. The very nature of vertical progression for example means a lot of content gets thrown away in games, where similarly narrow content without flexibility of user choice means that they are railroaded into activities, tasks, and skills they may not enjoy or care about.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Depending on how you implement it, its effects are dramatically different. The worst implementation possible I see is the "Swing X times to improve sword ability" because it is essentially the same as the god-awful use to improve systems out there. "Kill X amount of Y with a sword to improve sword ability" is nothing more than a grindy kill-quest.
Now "Kill X amount of Y to improve your ability to kill Y" is slightly more interesting. Better yet "Killing X amount of Y lets you learn an ability from Y". Now while that is way more interesting than "Kill X amount of Y to improve sword ability" it also creates situations where players might not want to kill Y when they have nothing to gain from it.
Another thing that came to mind was to give generic points (or XP) for advancement from completing achievements. This way a player might collect plants and use the points he/she gets from those achievements to improve their character's sword fighting ability. But even this is not too far away from just getting XP from whatever and getting a level up every now and again.
There's not much new here when you really think about it.
It is vastly different though. The progression methodology is subtly different. How it's applied is to give you a choice where you play. Meaning without the linear power progression you can choose the quest hub order. You could start raiding immediately. You could go to dungeons immediately.
You could start out raiding and 3 months later you could decided to do all the quest. They would still be relevant. The point is to make the game non linear.
The fact that you can go on a dungeon or a quest hub anywhere doesn't make you useful. It is impossible to design content which is satisfying to all characters no matter their level of progression.
If you have progression, you will have tiers of power among the characters. If you don't have character levels players will find other means to divide characters into tiers; like how many achievements have you completed, in this case.
Progression through achievements does not achieve your wish non-linear game. You're making the game grindy. That's what you're achieving.
Anything that removes linear content is non linear. You seem to admit this than backtrack at the end. Have you ever played Elders Scoll games, Fallout 3 or any other game with non linear gameplay?
You can always make gameplay based on difficulty and challenge. Meaning you can have areas that are just harder and some easier. Some require groups, player skill or specific gear. There are ways to have RPG without having levels and questhubs.
Progression is progression. Even if it gives you options only, you will create situations where "Oh I can't go kill fire elemenetals yet. I don't have the fire resistance skill." You will have gated content based on those achievements and players will pick groups based on those achievements. It is unavoidable.
And when I say "satisfying" I mean "satisfying for most people". You can do whatever you want if you're going to make a game for just yourself and few of your friends. Meanwhile, people are trying to make a living in this business so it matters whether a design decision is popular or not!
The games that have little to no progression (CoD, BF and the like) rely on good gameplay for their success. A progression system through achievements wouldn't even be a major factor in a game like this. Why aren't you making a thread about "How about an MMO with really good gameplay" instead?
And how is all this different from just giving XP (or "customization points") from activities? How are achievements different from that?
Because how you progress can seriously effects your gameplay. Games with a linear type of progression play different than ones that non linear. It's not really hard to understand.
How is it different? Look if you want yoy break down any system. What's the difference between you getting angst points for each quest so you can get more emo vs. getting exp for levels? Just wording.
The main point is to... 1. Be non linear. 2. Difficulty over number multipliers. 3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activies.
Yes, players can grind if they choose. A completionist could go after them all. Some players might go for achievement perks that help their build. How is that any different than bring forced to raid/daillies/etc. for power gamers? Well besides being forced to do diverse grinds vs. the same few over and over. Power gamers almost always grind in MMORPG.
Depending on how you implement it, its effects are dramatically different. The worst implementation possible I see is the "Swing X times to improve sword ability" because it is essentially the same as the god-awful use to improve systems out there. "Kill X amount of Y with a sword to improve sword ability" is nothing more than a grindy kill-quest.
Now "Kill X amount of Y to improve your ability to kill Y" is slightly more interesting. Better yet "Killing X amount of Y lets you learn an ability from Y". Now while that is way more interesting than "Kill X amount of Y to improve sword ability" it also creates situations where players might not want to kill Y when they have nothing to gain from it.
Another thing that came to mind was to give generic points (or XP) for advancement from completing achievements. This way a player might collect plants and use the points he/she gets from those achievements to improve their character's sword fighting ability. But even this is not too far away from just getting XP from whatever and getting a level up every now and again.
There's not much new here when you really think about it.
It is vastly different though. The progression methodology is subtly different. How it's applied is to give you a choice where you play. Meaning without the linear power progression you can choose the quest hub order. You could start raiding immediately. You could go to dungeons immediately.
You could start out raiding and 3 months later you could decided to do all the quest. They would still be relevant. The point is to make the game non linear.
The fact that you can go on a dungeon or a quest hub anywhere doesn't make you useful. It is impossible to design content which is satisfying to all characters no matter their level of progression.
If you have progression, you will have tiers of power among the characters. If you don't have character levels players will find other means to divide characters into tiers; like how many achievements have you completed, in this case.
Progression through achievements does not achieve your wish non-linear game. You're making the game grindy. That's what you're achieving.
Anything that removes linear content is non linear. You seem to admit this than backtrack at the end. Have you ever played Elders Scoll games, Fallout 3 or any other game with non linear gameplay?
You can always make gameplay based on difficulty and challenge. Meaning you can have areas that are just harder and some easier. Some require groups, player skill or specific gear. There are ways to have RPG without having levels and questhubs.
In Elder Scrolls games (and Fallout) most of the quest lines are linear. That means they are in order and they do not branch. Most quest lines are also independent which means you can advance in one, complete another and continue the first. You can do multiple at once or in any order.
A branching story, on the otherhand, is something that is non-linear yet one quest state follows the other. Effectively just one quest with multiple end states will make the entire quest line non-linear.
It is difficult to determine what you're aiming at with your achievement system when it has very little to do with linear or non-linear gameplay. Yes, no doubt there are ways to make RPGs without levels or questhubs, but I thought this thread was about using achievements for progression, wasn't it? I came here to talk about the hypothetical pros and cons of such a system. As far as I'm concerned, the two matters are not connected.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Progression is progression. Even if it gives you options only, you will create situations where "Oh I can't go kill fire elemenetals yet. I don't have the fire resistance skill." You will have gated content based on those achievements and players will pick groups based on those achievements. It is unavoidable.
And when I say "satisfying" I mean "satisfying for most people". You can do whatever you want if you're going to make a game for just yourself and few of your friends. Meanwhile, people are trying to make a living in this business so it matters whether a design decision is popular or not!
The games that have little to no progression (CoD, BF and the like) rely on good gameplay for their success. A progression system through achievements wouldn't even be a major factor in a game like this. Why aren't you making a thread about "How about an MMO with really good gameplay" instead?
And how is all this different from just giving XP (or "customization points") from activities? How are achievements different from that?
Because how you progress can seriously effects your gameplay. Games with a linear type of progression play different than ones that non linear. It's not really hard to understand.
How is it different? Look if you want yoy break down any system. What's the difference between you getting angst points for each quest so you can get more emo vs. getting exp for levels? Just wording.
The main point is to... 1. Be non linear. 2. Difficulty over number multipliers. 3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activies.
Yes, players can grind if they choose. A completionist could go after them all. Some players might go for achievement perks that help their build. How is that any different than bring forced to raid/daillies/etc. for power gamers? Well besides being forced to do diverse grinds vs. the same few over and over. Power gamers almost always grind in MMORPG.
But isn't part of having interesting achievements to have gated content which you can then enter with correct achievements e.g. killing fire elementals requires the fire resistance skill?
You don't want to be able to go anywhere right away. That would take away a significant portion of the sense of achievement from gathering achievements.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Anything that removes linear content is non linear. You seem to admit this than backtrack at the end. Have you ever played Elders Scoll games, Fallout 3 or any other game with non linear gameplay?
You can always make gameplay based on difficulty and challenge. Meaning you can have areas that are just harder and some easier. Some require groups, player skill or specific gear. There are ways to have RPG without having levels and questhubs.
If I want to increase sword skill in your system, then your system is linear.
I want to increase sword skill.
I must swing a sword.
My sword skill increases.
The non-linear gameplay in Bethesda's games isn't the result of their progression systems. It's ignorant to claim that it is (meaning you literally have to ignore all the surrounding facts in order to hold that belief).
A system like WOW where characters can be improved in your choice of activities (XP/level), combined with a system like early WOW or PoE where you can use that progression to fuel your choice of progression (level -> skill point -> skill tree) is the most non-linear progression you can have. Fixating on the single linear element (level) while ignoring the vast surrounding freedom such a system offers is literal ignorance. This system involves choice both in how and what you progress. Your system involves choice only in what you progress (because once you choose what to progress -- sword skill -- you're locked into one activity to progress it.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Anything that removes linear content is non linear. You seem to admit this than backtrack at the end. Have you ever played Elders Scoll games, Fallout 3 or any other game with non linear gameplay?
You can always make gameplay based on difficulty and challenge. Meaning you can have areas that are just harder and some easier. Some require groups, player skill or specific gear. There are ways to have RPG without having levels and questhubs.
If I want to increase sword skill in your system, then your system is linear.
I want to increase sword skill.
I must swing a sword.
My sword skill increases.
The non-linear gameplay in Bethesda's games isn't the result of their progression systems. It's ignorant to claim that it is (meaning you literally have to ignore all the surrounding facts in order to hold that belief).
A system like WOW where characters can be improved in your choice of activities (XP/level), combined with a system like early WOW or PoE where you can use that progression to fuel your choice of progression (level -> skill point -> skill tree) is the most non-linear progression you can have. Fixating on the single linear element (level) while ignoring the vast surrounding freedom such a system offers is literal ignorance. This system involves choice both in how and what you progress. Your system involves choice only in what you progress (because once you choose what to progress -- sword skill -- you're locked into one activity to progress it.)
You can't see the forest for the trees. And it's ironic you are focused on a singular aspect. What you are saying is essentially you can only pedal on a bike. So raising a bike skill is restrictive. This ignores that pedalling a bike is primary action done for multiple secondary reasons giving it variety.
Just like swinging a sword is done for multiple reasons.
Can you use a sword in combat while dungeon running?
Can you use a sword in combat while searching for crafting materials?
Can you use a sword in combat while hunting animals for crafting materials?
Can you use a sword in combat while questing?
Can you use a sword in combat while raiding?
Can you use a sword in combat while exploring?
If yiu can say yes to these than you basically agree. Swinging a sword is part of combat. Combat is multidimensional. You yourself argued that RPGS are based around combat.
Please don't go on a tangent about how imperfect the bike analogy is.
Progression is progression. Even if it gives you options only, you will create situations where "Oh I can't go kill fire elemenetals yet. I don't have the fire resistance skill." You will have gated content based on those achievements and players will pick groups based on those achievements. It is unavoidable.
And when I say "satisfying" I mean "satisfying for most people". You can do whatever you want if you're going to make a game for just yourself and few of your friends. Meanwhile, people are trying to make a living in this business so it matters whether a design decision is popular or not!
The games that have little to no progression (CoD, BF and the like) rely on good gameplay for their success. A progression system through achievements wouldn't even be a major factor in a game like this. Why aren't you making a thread about "How about an MMO with really good gameplay" instead?
And how is all this different from just giving XP (or "customization points") from activities? How are achievements different from that?
Because how you progress can seriously effects your gameplay. Games with a linear type of progression play different than ones that non linear. It's not really hard to understand.
How is it different? Look if you want yoy break down any system. What's the difference between you getting angst points for each quest so you can get more emo vs. getting exp for levels? Just wording.
The main point is to... 1. Be non linear. 2. Difficulty over number multipliers. 3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activies.
Yes, players can grind if they choose. A completionist could go after them all. Some players might go for achievement perks that help their build. How is that any different than bring forced to raid/daillies/etc. for power gamers? Well besides being forced to do diverse grinds vs. the same few over and over. Power gamers almost always grind in MMORPG.
But isn't part of having interesting achievements to have gated content which you can then enter with correct achievements e.g. killing fire elementals requires the fire resistance skill?
You don't want to be able to go anywhere right away. That would take away a significant portion of the sense of achievement from gathering achievements.
I believe in most gated things should have a practical reason.
Some things would just be unsurvivable without proper situational gear or item but not physically gated. You go land of Everfrost and you best combat gear doesn't give you cold protection so you freeze. But Ice bear hide crafted goods do. You need a cross to prevent vampires from biting in Vampire land. But those areas would be open.
A few would be unreachable without a "key" or part of a questline. You or someone in your party needs whistle of Whatever to open a tomb.
Some may not doable because of lack of player skill. Areas would be based on difficulty instead of levels. If you are a newbie or new to your powers going into a hard area may be too hard.
Anything that removes linear content is non linear. You seem to admit this than backtrack at the end. Have you ever played Elders Scoll games, Fallout 3 or any other game with non linear gameplay?
You can always make gameplay based on difficulty and challenge. Meaning you can have areas that are just harder and some easier. Some require groups, player skill or specific gear. There are ways to have RPG without having levels and questhubs.
If I want to increase sword skill in your system, then your system is linear.
I want to increase sword skill.
I must swing a sword.
My sword skill increases.
The non-linear gameplay in Bethesda's games isn't the result of their progression systems. It's ignorant to claim that it is (meaning you literally have to ignore all the surrounding facts in order to hold that belief).
A system like WOW where characters can be improved in your choice of activities (XP/level), combined with a system like early WOW or PoE where you can use that progression to fuel your choice of progression (level -> skill point -> skill tree) is the most non-linear progression you can have. Fixating on the single linear element (level) while ignoring the vast surrounding freedom such a system offers is literal ignorance. This system involves choice both in how and what you progress. Your system involves choice only in what you progress (because once you choose what to progress -- sword skill -- you're locked into one activity to progress it.)
Did we really just cycle back to the same false argument that was proven wrong on page 2?
You also introduced a lie with "level -> skill point -> skill tree) is the most non-linear progression you can have". The reality being, if said system is nested within a strict class system (as it is in the likes of WoW) then your level of freedom is greatly diminished. Even in the case of PoE where there is quite a lot of creative freedom, the choice of character and subsequently where they stick you on their "tree" affects your fundamental statistics, strengths, and subsequent play/scope quite a lot.
Skyrim's, and the Elder Scrolls series overall, has quite a lot to attribute to it's skill system for it's non-linear play as the skills you have available and how you use them shapes your character's design over time into the character concept you're intent upon playing, and that directly affects your approach to the rest of the game's content on an interactive (IE, the gameplay) level.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Games live and die on details so the "trees" matter a lot.
You're trying to sell use-to-improve as something else.
I am not selling it as anything it is different. How do you use exploring or use completing raids or use questing? Yes in theory there is overlap but its not the same.
For example if you completed questhub in town A you would get a perk that gave you special speech recognition by locals, price discounts and etc in that town. That's not the same as a use system. Again there is overlap in the basics but it's not the same thing.
Games live and die on details so the "trees" matter a lot.
You're trying to sell use-to-improve as something else.
Almost but not quite. The advantage his system has is that it's not necessarily as simple as "use to improve" as there can be a range of specific targets with unique rewards through the achievements as well as a variety of achievements that have split rewards.
It has a very flexible quality of tracking a wide range of the game's play, mobs, and features that you can add in a variety of tasks well beyond the core scope for example of "hit X to gain sword skill" since you can also use the achievement tracking to track what kind of mob and reward a unique skill based on that, or rewards sword skill for ancillary elements like honing your weapons, bashing locks, finding skill books or teachers, interacting with other players to earn skills from them, or other creative things that you can associate with the use of such a skill set.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You can't see the forest for the trees. And it's ironic you are focused on a singular aspect. What you are saying is essentially you can only pedal on a bike. So raising a bike skill is restrictive. This ignores that pedalling a bike is primary action done for multiple secondary reasons giving it variety.
Just like swinging a sword is done for multiple reasons.
Can you use a sword in combat while dungeon running?
Can you use a sword in combat while searching for crafting materials?
Can you use a sword in combat while hunting animals for crafting materials?
Can you use a sword in combat while questing?
Can you use a sword in combat while raiding?
Can you use a sword in combat while exploring?
If yiu can say yes to these than you basically agree. Swinging a sword is part of combat. Combat is multidimensional. You yourself argued that RPGS are based around combat.
Please don't go on a tangent about how imperfect the bike analogy is.
In real life raising bike skill is restrictive. Games aren't real life. Since the purpose of games is fun, and many forms of player freedom assist in creating something more fun, a game involving bikes will usually be better if bike skill can be raised in more than just the restrictive real-life way.
Your list of questions merely distracts from the fundamental lack of freedom of your system. I want to raise sword skill and I cannot freely choose how I do that. It's an inescapable fact of your system that I can't choose how I raise sword skill.
The two most important questions are:
What do I want to improve?
How can I improve it?
A level-based system with lots of advancement options provides lots of freedom for both 1 and 2. An achievement-based system with lots of advancement options provides only#1.
Skyrim/Fallout have some of the shallowest combat in RPGs in spite of many different systems forcing you to fight for various reasons you list. Flat combat is still flat combat (not 'multidimensional') regardless of how many outside factors are tugging you to engage in flat combat. Systems are multidimensional when they're composed of multiple dimensions -- the dimensions outside of a system have influence in specific cases (but you've listed none of those situations in your questions.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
A level-based system with lots of advancement options provides lots of freedom for both 1 and 2. An achievement-based system with lots of advancement options provides only#1.
Pages 2 to 4 proves your claim right here wrong in multiple ways, and yet you persist in using a false argument.
Not only that, you fail to even provide a rational argument within your statements just now.
Hell you re-used the sword skill argument too which has been explained how there can be many options in terms of actions and venues for one to advance their sword skill outside of combat alone, yet you persist in using a mental model unique to your own argument and not reflective of what the system is actually capable of.
How many means you have to advance a given skill through achievements can be considerably varied, and that consequently translates to a lot of freedom on both how you progress a given skill as well as the choice of what you do to progress discretely and globally.
A linear system can't do that, and the advancement options are directly confined by the rest of the structure in terms of both choice of advancement as well as the game in dictating what the available activities are (hence why in many linear systems like WoW the most common means of advancement are grinding repetitious content like quest chains, dungeons, and later dailies and raids).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
A level-based system with lots of advancement options provides lots of freedom for both 1 and 2. An achievement-based system with lots of advancement options provides only#1.
Pages 2 to 4 proves your claim right here wrong in multiple ways, and yet you persist in using a false argument.
Not only that, you fail to even provide a rational argument within your statements just now.
Hell you re-used the sword skill argument too which has been explained how there can be many options in terms of actions and venues for one to advance their sword skill outside of combat alone, yet you persist in using a mental model unique to your own argument and not reflective of what the system is actually capable of.
How many means you have to advance a given skill through achievements can be considerably varied, and that consequently translates to a lot of freedom on both how you progress a given skill as well as the choice of what you do to progress discretely and globally.
A linear system can't do that, and the advancement options are directly confined by the rest of the structure in terms of both choice of advancement as well as the game in dictating what the available activities are (hence why in many linear systems like WoW the most common means of advancement are grinding repetitious content like quest chains, dungeons, and later dailies and raids).
A character level system (or "linear system" as you call it) can have just as varied means of getting experience points as the achievement system. There are no inherent restrictions that prevent this.
Combat is not common because of the character advancement system. Combat is common because it is vastly more popular than any other activity in games. People want it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Your list of questions merely distracts from the fundamental lack of freedom of your system. I want to raise sword skill and I cannot freely choose how I do that. It's an inescapable fact of your system that I can't choose how I raise sword skill.
You raise sword skill by using in during normal gameplay. Why would you want to raise swords if you're not using it?
Your list of questions merely distracts from the fundamental lack of freedom of your system. I want to raise sword skill and I cannot freely choose how I do that. It's an inescapable fact of your system that I can't choose how I raise sword skill.
No, its example of how you use a sword in combat doing multiple things. You do choose by doing activities related to combat which is the most common activity in the genre.
"Videogame RPGs have been combat-centric since the very beginning of the genre."
"When combat is the most common activity in a game, it basically is the game.
"One of the earlier videogame RPGs was Ultima 1 (1981) and in the 35 years since then videogame RPGs have consistently and nearly always been combat-centric games."
"Combat has been and still is the most common activity in RPGs, and by extension MMORPGs." -- Axehilt
Meaning combat skills will be the most easy to raise because you will be getting kills in almost every aspect of the game. Meaning you will have the most freedom in choosing when to use a combat skill.
It is no different from getting experience- or customization points from activities. In fact, if one would first pick a personal quest to grind mobs to get those points the effect would be the same.
"Dumping" progression to a general pool gives you exactly the freedom where you can do whatever you want to progress in whatever ability you want.
Farm carrots to improve necromancy. Whatever.
The system you describe as an example of more "conventional" character development is obnoxious. Ever play D&D? There's a system with character levels and classes yet it is still very flexible and there's tons of rooms for customization.
Of course but I want...
1. Be non linear. 2. Difficulty over number multipliers(of levels... if no multiplier levels are cosmetic and unneeded). 3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activities.
A level-based system with lots of advancement options provides lots of freedom for both 1 and 2. An achievement-based system with lots of advancement options provides only#1.
Pages 2 to 4 proves your claim right here wrong in multiple ways, and yet you persist in using a false argument.
Not only that, you fail to even provide a rational argument within your statements just now.
Hell you re-used the sword skill argument too which has been explained how there can be many options in terms of actions and venues for one to advance their sword skill outside of combat alone, yet you persist in using a mental model unique to your own argument and not reflective of what the system is actually capable of.
How many means you have to advance a given skill through achievements can be considerably varied, and that consequently translates to a lot of freedom on both how you progress a given skill as well as the choice of what you do to progress discretely and globally.
A linear system can't do that, and the advancement options are directly confined by the rest of the structure in terms of both choice of advancement as well as the game in dictating what the available activities are (hence why in many linear systems like WoW the most common means of advancement are grinding repetitious content like quest chains, dungeons, and later dailies and raids).
A character level system (or "linear system" as you call it) can have just as varied means of getting experience points as the achievement system. There are no inherent restrictions that prevent this.
Combat is not common because of the character advancement system. Combat is common because it is vastly more popular than any other activity in games. People want it.
You really whiffed it on that didn't you.
"...freedom on both how you progress a given skill as well as the choice of what you do to progress discretely and globally."
"advancement options are directly confined by the rest of the structure in terms of both choice of advancement as well as the game in dictating what the available activities are"
A linear leveling system can offer a variety of non-linear gameplay options assuming it's not a completely linear system, but in every example offered it's been accompanied by systems that restrict that freedom through class, quest, and game focus. The point to be had multiple times over has been that the assumptions held about one system are equally false applied to another.
Also, a linear advancement system means it's a system which confines the user to specific advancement opportunities. That is in and of itself limiting as compared to a skill system that you pick from/do whatever.
Read the posts you respond to.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It is no different from getting experience- or customization points from activities. In fact, if one would first pick a personal quest to grind mobs to get those points the effect would be the same.
"Dumping" progression to a general pool gives you exactly the freedom where you can do whatever you want to progress in whatever ability you want.
Farm carrots to improve necromancy. Whatever.
The system you describe as an example of more "conventional" character development is obnoxious. Ever play D&D? There's a system with character levels and classes yet it is still very flexible and there's tons of rooms for customization.
Of course but I want...
1. Be non linear. 2. Difficulty over number multipliers(of levels... if no multiplier levels are cosmetic and unneeded). 3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activities.
I get that but this system doesn't much help your cause. Or rather, I don't see this character development system being a major factor in achieving what you want. What you want comes from someplace else. Also:
But isn't part of having interesting achievements to have gated content which you can then enter with correct achievements e.g. killing fire elementals requires the fire resistance skill?
You don't want to be able to go anywhere right away. That would take away a significant portion of the sense of achievement from gathering achievements.
You really want to consider where players will get their sense of achievement from. They have to have something tangible to strive for.
It would be really difficult to keep people occupied with horizontal progression alone. The game would have to have really fun skill-based (I mean player skill) gameplay for this to work, and this would be your major focus. PvP could possibly play an important role... A good story wouldn't certainly go amiss...
The point is: In a game what you want, progression is the thing you want to put the least amount of focus.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
And yet progression is the crux of a vertical/linear system like WoW (initially through levels and then through gear grind). It's the core premise of the perpetual treadmill that is many of these themeparks and even sandboxes.
Good gameplay should be the goal, but in order to have good gameplay you need systems that aren't going to override the player's control and ability to interact with the game's features.
Hence, then, a skill system that lets them advance across a spectrum of skills of their choosing, at their discretion. Something that effectively responds to and rewards players for seeking out the components of gameplay they enjoy doing rather than punishing them with less efficient advancement or denying them rewards for their effort.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I have seen glimpses over many games of good progression ideas but VERY small increments. It just seem devs are content with simplified game design,create player,create xp treadmill,create end game raiding,there you have it,no effort at all put into the game's design and progression.
Problem are the gamer's who should never be playing a mmorpg,i ALWAYS hear MANY whining about "too slow".Well are you there to pla ya RPG or some speedfest fps?Do you want time to think and plan or just be handed everything and have automated game play?I know which one is a rpg and which one is just a series of meaningless ideas to progress a player to the next xpansion pack for sale.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I have seen glimpses over many games of good progression ideas but VERY small increments. It just seem devs are content with simplified game design,create player,create xp treadmill,create end game raiding,there you have it,no effort at all put into the game's design and progression.
Problem are the gamer's who should never be playing a mmorpg,i ALWAYS hear MANY whining about "too slow".Well are you there to pla ya RPG or some speedfest fps?Do you want time to think and plan or just be handed everything and have automated game play?I know which one is a rpg and which one is just a series of meaningless ideas to progress a player to the next xpansion pack for sale.
@Wizardry That is the hardest partr of a game, the progression. I have developed a game, inspired by War of Houses, where I think there is clear progression. We are currently in BETA testing and would love feedback or recommendations. www.warofhouses.com
It is no different from getting experience- or customization points from activities. In fact, if one would first pick a personal quest to grind mobs to get those points the effect would be the same.
"Dumping" progression to a general pool gives you exactly the freedom where you can do whatever you want to progress in whatever ability you want.
Farm carrots to improve necromancy. Whatever.
The system you describe as an example of more "conventional" character development is obnoxious. Ever play D&D? There's a system with character levels and classes yet it is still very flexible and there's tons of rooms for customization.
Of course but I want...
1. Be non linear. 2. Difficulty over number multipliers(of levels... if no multiplier levels are cosmetic and unneeded). 3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activities.
I get that but this system doesn't much help your cause. Or rather, I don't see this character development system being a major factor in achieving what you want. What you want comes from someplace else. Also:
But isn't part of having interesting achievements to have gated content which you can then enter with correct achievements e.g. killing fire elementals requires the fire resistance skill?
You don't want to be able to go anywhere right away. That would take away a significant portion of the sense of achievement from gathering achievements.
You really want to consider where players will get their sense of achievement from. They have to have something tangible to strive for.
It would be really difficult to keep people occupied with horizontal progression alone. The game would have to have really fun skill-based (I mean player skill) gameplay for this to work, and this would be your major focus. PvP could possibly play an important role... A good story wouldn't certainly go amiss...
The point is: In a game what you want, progression is the thing you want to put the least amount of focus.
Agreed and that's the goal to have difficulty in player skill.
I also picked the system because it allows you to play in the manner you're used to or want to. Those who like to questhub could do that and advance. Those who like to raid could do that to advance. Those who just want to go out and grind on mob could do that and get kill achievements and perks for different types of NPCs.
Your list of questions merely distracts from the fundamental lack of freedom of your system. I want to raise sword skill and I cannot freely choose how I do that. It's an inescapable fact of your system that I can't choose how I raise sword skill.
You raise sword skill by using in during normal gameplay. Why would you want to raise swords if you're not using it?
Your list of questions merely distracts from the fundamental lack of freedom of your system. I want to raise sword skill and I cannot freely choose how I do that. It's an inescapable fact of your system that I can't choose how I raise sword skill.
No, its example of how you use a sword in combat doing multiple things. You do choose by doing activities related to combat which is the most common activity in the genre.
"Videogame RPGs have been combat-centric since the very beginning of the genre."
"When combat is the most common activity in a game, it basically is the game.
"One of the earlier videogame RPGs was Ultima 1 (1981) and in the 35 years since then videogame RPGs have consistently and nearly always been combat-centric games."
"Combat has been and still is the most common activity in RPGs, and by extension MMORPGs." -- Axehilt
Meaning combat skills will be the most easy to raise because you will be getting kills in almost every aspect of the game. Meaning you will have the most freedom in choosing when to use a combat skill.
Why? For every reason implied by your questions: if I'm a crafter being driven to combat only because the system is forcing me to fight to reach materials, then I want higher sword skill so I can craft better. (And each of your other questions implies some other primary motivation that required the player to engage in combat. Combat wasn't the primary motivation.)
But the answer to "why" is ultimately irrelevant because even if there wasn't a reason, you still didn't have freedom. So it's just more distraction.
Combat being common doesn't matter. The question "What can I improve and how can I improve it?" determine whether a system provides freedom. Your system provides less freedom, because the answer to "how" is a narrower set of things (usually just one activity) than a typical XP-based game
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It is no different from getting experience- or customization points from activities. In fact, if one would first pick a personal quest to grind mobs to get those points the effect would be the same.
"Dumping" progression to a general pool gives you exactly the freedom where you can do whatever you want to progress in whatever ability you want.
Farm carrots to improve necromancy. Whatever.
The system you describe as an example of more "conventional" character development is obnoxious. Ever play D&D? There's a system with character levels and classes yet it is still very flexible and there's tons of rooms for customization.
Of course but I want...
1. Be non linear. 2. Difficulty over number multipliers(of levels... if no multiplier levels are cosmetic and unneeded). 3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activities.
I get that but this system doesn't much help your cause. Or rather, I don't see this character development system being a major factor in achieving what you want. What you want comes from someplace else. Also:
But isn't part of having interesting achievements to have gated content which you can then enter with correct achievements e.g. killing fire elementals requires the fire resistance skill?
You don't want to be able to go anywhere right away. That would take away a significant portion of the sense of achievement from gathering achievements.
You really want to consider where players will get their sense of achievement from. They have to have something tangible to strive for.
It would be really difficult to keep people occupied with horizontal progression alone. The game would have to have really fun skill-based (I mean player skill) gameplay for this to work, and this would be your major focus. PvP could possibly play an important role... A good story wouldn't certainly go amiss...
The point is: In a game what you want, progression is the thing you want to put the least amount of focus.
Agreed and that's the goal to have difficulty in player skill.
I also picked the system because it allows you to play in the manner you're used to or want to. Those who like to questhub could do that and advance. Those who like to raid could do that to advance. Those who just want to go out and grind on mob could do that and get kill achievements and perks for different types of NPCs.
Forget hubs. From hubs people can find the content they want to consume: quests. Questhubs also bring players together and make grouping easier. It would be a huge nuisance if quests were spread out all over the place and players had to search for them and groups to do them.
Even with hubs, you can grind as much as you want. Very few games stop you from doing that. And if you don't like quest content, why are you playing a quest-based game anyway?
A regular system with experience points given from activities already achieves what you're proposing. Furthermore, it has been shown that the regular system has more freedom than progression through achievements. Any changes to the means how you advance can be applied to both systems, but only with experience points the means of how you improve and what you improve are independent.
Finally, I think it is the norm to increase difficulty as the game approaches the end(game). MMORPGs are usually at their peak in the endgame. Now, the game might still be easy, but that might be due to design.
MMORPG aren't the most skill-intensive games out there. Tank 'n' spank combat, for example, is not a very hard concept to understand. There isn't much strategy, tactics or improvisation involved. It is essentially a formula against every encounter in the game with only minor variations. When you want challenge and difficulty, combat in MMORPGs looks very dull.
Still, there are many people who find the level of difficulty in MMORPGs to be acceptable. If you take them out of their comfort zone, like take away the dedicated healer and/or tank, they will be up and arms saying the combat is too chaotic, "its zerging". They can't handle it.
Fortunately there are some hot "hard" games and game series out there Dark Souls being one of them. But the same type of trend hasn't hit MMORPGs yet. Its just where we are now.
Or this is how I see it anyway.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Challenge is built around offering a variety of activities that require a variety of skills and play options. Just as not every class is capable of doing everything, players ultimately will pick the types of skills and subsequent activities that interest them most.
Classes and levels "work as intended" in as narrow of a context as their own features allow. The very nature of vertical progression for example means a lot of content gets thrown away in games, where similarly narrow content without flexibility of user choice means that they are railroaded into activities, tasks, and skills they may not enjoy or care about.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Anything that removes linear content is non linear. You seem to admit this than backtrack at the end. Have you ever played Elders Scoll games, Fallout 3 or any other game with non linear gameplay?
You can always make gameplay based on difficulty and challenge. Meaning you can have areas that are just harder and some easier. Some require groups, player skill or specific gear. There are ways to have RPG without having levels and questhubs.
How is it different? Look if you want yoy break down any system. What's the difference between you getting angst points for each quest so you can get more emo vs. getting exp for levels? Just wording.
The main point is to...
1. Be non linear.
2. Difficulty over number multipliers.
3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activies.
Yes, players can grind if they choose. A completionist could go after them all. Some players might go for achievement perks that help their build. How is that any different than bring forced to raid/daillies/etc. for power gamers? Well besides being forced to do diverse grinds vs. the same few over and over. Power gamers almost always grind in MMORPG.
A branching story, on the otherhand, is something that is non-linear yet one quest state follows the other. Effectively just one quest with multiple end states will make the entire quest line non-linear.
It is difficult to determine what you're aiming at with your achievement system when it has very little to do with linear or non-linear gameplay. Yes, no doubt there are ways to make RPGs without levels or questhubs, but I thought this thread was about using achievements for progression, wasn't it? I came here to talk about the hypothetical pros and cons of such a system. As far as I'm concerned, the two matters are not connected.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You don't want to be able to go anywhere right away. That would take away a significant portion of the sense of achievement from gathering achievements.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
- I want to increase sword skill.
- I must swing a sword.
- My sword skill increases.
The non-linear gameplay in Bethesda's games isn't the result of their progression systems. It's ignorant to claim that it is (meaning you literally have to ignore all the surrounding facts in order to hold that belief).A system like WOW where characters can be improved in your choice of activities (XP/level), combined with a system like early WOW or PoE where you can use that progression to fuel your choice of progression (level -> skill point -> skill tree) is the most non-linear progression you can have. Fixating on the single linear element (level) while ignoring the vast surrounding freedom such a system offers is literal ignorance. This system involves choice both in how and what you progress. Your system involves choice only in what you progress (because once you choose what to progress -- sword skill -- you're locked into one activity to progress it.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just like swinging a sword is done for multiple reasons.
Can you use a sword in combat while dungeon running?
Can you use a sword in combat while searching for crafting materials?
Can you use a sword in combat while hunting animals for crafting materials?
Can you use a sword in combat while questing?
Can you use a sword in combat while raiding?
Can you use a sword in combat while exploring?
If yiu can say yes to these than you basically agree. Swinging a sword is part of combat. Combat is multidimensional. You yourself argued that RPGS are based around combat.
Please don't go on a tangent about how imperfect the bike analogy is.
Some things would just be unsurvivable without proper situational gear or item but not physically gated. You go land of Everfrost and you best combat gear doesn't give you cold protection so you freeze. But Ice bear hide crafted goods do. You need a cross to prevent vampires from biting in Vampire land. But those areas would be open.
A few would be unreachable without a "key" or part of a questline. You or someone in your party needs whistle of Whatever to open a tomb.
Some may not doable because of lack of player skill. Areas would be based on difficulty instead of levels. If you are a newbie or new to your powers going into a hard area may be too hard.
Majority of the game would be open though.
You're trying to sell use-to-improve as something else.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Or for that matter on page 4.
You also introduced a lie with "level -> skill point -> skill tree) is the most non-linear progression you can have". The reality being, if said system is nested within a strict class system (as it is in the likes of WoW) then your level of freedom is greatly diminished. Even in the case of PoE where there is quite a lot of creative freedom, the choice of character and subsequently where they stick you on their "tree" affects your fundamental statistics, strengths, and subsequent play/scope quite a lot.
Skyrim's, and the Elder Scrolls series overall, has quite a lot to attribute to it's skill system for it's non-linear play as the skills you have available and how you use them shapes your character's design over time into the character concept you're intent upon playing, and that directly affects your approach to the rest of the game's content on an interactive (IE, the gameplay) level.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
For example if you completed questhub in town A you would get a perk that gave you special speech recognition by locals, price discounts and etc in that town. That's not the same as a use system. Again there is overlap in the basics but it's not the same thing.
It has a very flexible quality of tracking a wide range of the game's play, mobs, and features that you can add in a variety of tasks well beyond the core scope for example of "hit X to gain sword skill" since you can also use the achievement tracking to track what kind of mob and reward a unique skill based on that, or rewards sword skill for ancillary elements like honing your weapons, bashing locks, finding skill books or teachers, interacting with other players to earn skills from them, or other creative things that you can associate with the use of such a skill set.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Your list of questions merely distracts from the fundamental lack of freedom of your system. I want to raise sword skill and I cannot freely choose how I do that. It's an inescapable fact of your system that I can't choose how I raise sword skill.
The two most important questions are:
- What do I want to improve?
- How can I improve it?
A level-based system with lots of advancement options provides lots of freedom for both 1 and 2.An achievement-based system with lots of advancement options provides only #1.
Skyrim/Fallout have some of the shallowest combat in RPGs in spite of many different systems forcing you to fight for various reasons you list. Flat combat is still flat combat (not 'multidimensional') regardless of how many outside factors are tugging you to engage in flat combat. Systems are multidimensional when they're composed of multiple dimensions -- the dimensions outside of a system have influence in specific cases (but you've listed none of those situations in your questions.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Not only that, you fail to even provide a rational argument within your statements just now.
Hell you re-used the sword skill argument too which has been explained how there can be many options in terms of actions and venues for one to advance their sword skill outside of combat alone, yet you persist in using a mental model unique to your own argument and not reflective of what the system is actually capable of.
How many means you have to advance a given skill through achievements can be considerably varied, and that consequently translates to a lot of freedom on both how you progress a given skill as well as the choice of what you do to progress discretely and globally.
A linear system can't do that, and the advancement options are directly confined by the rest of the structure in terms of both choice of advancement as well as the game in dictating what the available activities are (hence why in many linear systems like WoW the most common means of advancement are grinding repetitious content like quest chains, dungeons, and later dailies and raids).
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Combat is not common because of the character advancement system. Combat is common because it is vastly more popular than any other activity in games. People want it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You raise sword skill by using in during normal gameplay. Why would you want to raise swords if you're not using it?
No, its example of how you use a sword in combat doing multiple things. You do choose by doing activities related to combat which is the most common activity in the genre.
"Videogame RPGs have been combat-centric since the very beginning of the genre."
"When combat is the most common activity in a game, it basically is the game.
"One of the earlier videogame RPGs was Ultima 1 (1981) and in the 35 years since then videogame RPGs have consistently and nearly always been combat-centric games."
"Combat has been and still is the most common activity in RPGs, and by extension MMORPGs." -- Axehilt
Meaning combat skills will be the most easy to raise because you will be getting kills in almost every aspect of the game. Meaning you will have the most freedom in choosing when to use a combat skill.
1. Be non linear.
2. Difficulty over number multipliers(of levels... if no multiplier levels are cosmetic and unneeded).
3. Allow players who want to raid, mob grind, quest, dungeon run, quest to be able to max their core character skill while doing their activities.
"...freedom on both how you progress a given skill as well as the choice of what you do to progress discretely and globally."
"advancement options are directly confined by the rest of the structure in terms of both choice of advancement as well as the game in dictating what the available activities are"
A linear leveling system can offer a variety of non-linear gameplay options assuming it's not a completely linear system, but in every example offered it's been accompanied by systems that restrict that freedom through class, quest, and game focus. The point to be had multiple times over has been that the assumptions held about one system are equally false applied to another.
Also, a linear advancement system means it's a system which confines the user to specific advancement opportunities. That is in and of itself limiting as compared to a skill system that you pick from/do whatever.
Read the posts you respond to.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You really want to consider where players will get their sense of achievement from. They have to have something tangible to strive for.
It would be really difficult to keep people occupied with horizontal progression alone. The game would have to have really fun skill-based (I mean player skill) gameplay for this to work, and this would be your major focus. PvP could possibly play an important role... A good story wouldn't certainly go amiss...
The point is: In a game what you want, progression is the thing you want to put the least amount of focus.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Good gameplay should be the goal, but in order to have good gameplay you need systems that aren't going to override the player's control and ability to interact with the game's features.
Hence, then, a skill system that lets them advance across a spectrum of skills of their choosing, at their discretion. Something that effectively responds to and rewards players for seeking out the components of gameplay they enjoy doing rather than punishing them with less efficient advancement or denying them rewards for their effort.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
It just seem devs are content with simplified game design,create player,create xp treadmill,create end game raiding,there you have it,no effort at all put into the game's design and progression.
Problem are the gamer's who should never be playing a mmorpg,i ALWAYS hear MANY whining about "too slow".Well are you there to pla ya RPG or some speedfest fps?Do you want time to think and plan or just be handed everything and have automated game play?I know which one is a rpg and which one is just a series of meaningless ideas to progress a player to the next xpansion pack for sale.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I also picked the system because it allows you to play in the manner you're used to or want to. Those who like to questhub could do that and advance. Those who like to raid could do that to advance. Those who just want to go out and grind on mob could do that and get kill achievements and perks for different types of NPCs.
But the answer to "why" is ultimately irrelevant because even if there wasn't a reason, you still didn't have freedom. So it's just more distraction.
Combat being common doesn't matter. The question "What can I improve and how can I improve it?" determine whether a system provides freedom. Your system provides less freedom, because the answer to "how" is a narrower set of things (usually just one activity) than a typical XP-based game
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Even with hubs, you can grind as much as you want. Very few games stop you from doing that. And if you don't like quest content, why are you playing a quest-based game anyway?
A regular system with experience points given from activities already achieves what you're proposing. Furthermore, it has been shown that the regular system has more freedom than progression through achievements. Any changes to the means how you advance can be applied to both systems, but only with experience points the means of how you improve and what you improve are independent.
Finally, I think it is the norm to increase difficulty as the game approaches the end(game). MMORPGs are usually at their peak in the endgame. Now, the game might still be easy, but that might be due to design.
MMORPG aren't the most skill-intensive games out there. Tank 'n' spank combat, for example, is not a very hard concept to understand. There isn't much strategy, tactics or improvisation involved. It is essentially a formula against every encounter in the game with only minor variations. When you want challenge and difficulty, combat in MMORPGs looks very dull.
Still, there are many people who find the level of difficulty in MMORPGs to be acceptable. If you take them out of their comfort zone, like take away the dedicated healer and/or tank, they will be up and arms saying the combat is too chaotic, "its zerging". They can't handle it.
Fortunately there are some hot "hard" games and game series out there Dark Souls being one of them. But the same type of trend hasn't hit MMORPGs yet. Its just where we are now.
Or this is how I see it anyway.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky