I've been on these forums for a little while now and I often see negative opinions about PvP and the people who like it. About how PvP is ruining MMO's and so on. Sometimes it's almost as if there's an unofficial war going on between PvP'ers and PvE'ers, which would be silly.
As for myself, I enjoy some good PvP because of the competitive aspect. It's fun to play against and defeat your enemies in contest, knowing it was a player sitting at the other end. It's one thing to outsmart an A.I. and another entirely to outsmart a person. It just feels satisfying.
But I also love the persistant nature of MMO games. How you can create and build up a character over time, customize it and specialize it in a great big world with tons of other players, allowing for a lot of social interaction along the way.
So when I find an enjoyable MMO with PvP in it, I rejoice! But it seems to me a lot of people think the opposite. Not only having a disinterest in PvP but actively despising it to the point of refusing to play a game if PvP is present at all.
So, for those of you who really really don't like PvP. What is it about it that makes it so terrible for you? I'm genuinely curious, since I enjoy it myself.
Now, I understand not everyone likes the same things and that's cool. There are plenty of things I don't like myself. The question is aimed more towards the demographic that seems to actively hate PvP. You're also welcome to just throw in your general opinion on the subject even if you don't hate it of course.
No, I love PvP as a matter of fact it is my primary reason for playing MMO's! However, let me explain something.
Yes I like PvP, I do not like ganking lowbies. Yes I like open world PvP I do not like camping some poor bastard all day. Yes I like PvP when people that don't can opt out of it.
I hate PvP when they try to balance PvE based off PvP or vice versa. I hate pvp when it is implemented as an after thought. I hate PvP when PvErs play a PvP game (Eve, etc) then cry endlessly about getting killed or when kids log into PvP lobby games and bitch about dying. Don't PvP if you don't want to die. The best players in any game die now and then.
I am not a huge fan of Arena's, but I understand why people are. I think PvP adds a very competitive edge to a game and I really enjoy that. However, to repeat what I said above don't try to force the two together. This is one reason I really enjoy the flag system (ala SWG minus the balance issues). If you feel like getting down with dome PvP it's there, if not you can go cuddle your wookie all day.
TL DR: No, if done properly.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
If it's done right, open world PvP can be fun, even if you don't PvP (except for the part where you die almost instantly). You might die, heck, your stuff might get stolen, but if it's done right, this will not happen that often, and the ones killing you will be too busy hiding or dying themselves to enjoy their kill.
Unfortunately, it is difficult to get it right, and most don't even try. Heck, in Blade & Soul you had to change to a faction outfit, so it was always consenting, and still it was soo bad most of the times..people ganged you 5 on 1, but when you killed two of them alone they flamed you "wait till i logged over to my main".
Was is needed is some sort of police form. Official or inofficial. Doesn't matter who or what, or if it's always the same. But: You ganked one guy, you get killed if they happen to see you. You ganked two guys, they'll look for you. You ganked three guys, they'll know where you logged out. And they'll be waiting..
Of course it's something different on an official battlefield or for the participants (!) of guild wars. But if you kill the wrong guy, you better start running.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Good PVP is skillful competition. Most MMO PVP is not skillful competition.
Instead it's a competition of "who played longer?" (progression imbalance) or "who brought more friends?" (population imbalance) and neither is a particularly interesting or skillful way to win a fight.
So:
PVP is fantastic.
RPG PVP is not. (As a rule.)
But that's fine because there are plenty of great PVP games out there which aren't MMORPGs. It's okay for MMORPGs to just offer great PVE (not all of them do -- and they should work on that -- but if all you offer is fantastic PVE then that's good enough to keep me playing.)
And it's worth noting that some MMORPGs sneak non-RPG PVP inside of them. GW2 WvWvW, when triple pop-capped, takes place between even teams with even progression and so it's actually not RPG PVP. Same goes for WOW PVP nowadays (apparently they flattened out all gear progression and when you buy the baseline PVP set it's the best that PVP gear gets nowadays.) This lets them provide good PVP (PVP which is about skillful competition.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
H0urg1ass said:
EVE doesn't have a bad name, it simply has haters, of which you are one.
Pretty much this.
It is about vocal weirdos that try to demonize not just EVE or any particular game and it's player base but PVP in general.
Hate is so strong a word for a game that has never peaked my interest in the least. It has however been a game I have occasionally read about and listened to the sound bytes of people driving others to tears. I have read about it here on these very boards and any impression I have has been negative based on what I read .
I did read with interest some of the scams though so it's a bit of a lie to say I have no interest but those goings on did make me laugh at the stupidity.
The thing that always struck me is the real money people stood to lose have lost when their ships got blown up and that made me chuckle.
kitarad said:
Hate is so strong a word for a game that has never peaked my interest in the least. It has however been a game I have occasionally read about and listened to the sound bytes of people driving others to tears. I have read about here on these very boards and any impression I have has been negative based on what I read .
So you focused on those couple bad apples every ame has got and yet it does not prevent you from making those baseless, silly assumptions...
I'm probably in the minority on this site, but I only enjoy MMO PvP with competitive matchmaking. I want to be matched up with players near or above my skill level, not gank random backpeddlers who can't comprehend a simple damage rotation.
How can they be baseless when I read about them here on this very forum. Surely I can make assumptions from what I read. Is there some other way i could glean my knowledge about the game I have no wish to play ?
Isn't that the low hanging fruit in terms of this discussion though? It's not like Elite PVE guilds and players aren't the same exact way.
Yes it is the low hanging fruit, and whether you like it or not, there are plenty of PvPers that will go out of their way to target that same low hanging noob fruit. It doesn't take a large percentage of the populace to do that to spoil it for everyone, and that percentage definitely exists.
Sure, I don't disagree, yet this is about PVP in general, not just horribly designed games that allow such behavior..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Here's a twist how about PVE is ruining PVP. When you have a game that has both, then there is going to be two sides. The PVE crowd and the PVP crowd. When a game tries to balance it out to make both parties happy it fails every time. In my experience, notice I said my; the PVE folks seems to get what they want. The PVP folks always get the shaft and become the bastard step child. There are exceptions from time to time and the coin is flipped, but for the most part PVP becomes ruined because of the PVE side. I say have only PVE games, and PVP games. Never try to do both because it always becomes a big mess.
How can they be baseless when I read about them here on this very forum. Surely I can make assumptions from what I read. Is there some other way i could glean my knowledge about the game I have no wish to play ?
Because from all you could read about the game you only focused on those couple extreme examples and posters that are like yourself.
It is like a snowball, some weirdo make some stupid claim and others keep repeating it...
I find it comical that someone who does not play BDO for instance does spend their time on that board frequently putting it down has no qualms about pointing out that I should not be commenting about EvE having not played it. What's good for the gander is good for the goose I guess.
I find it comical that someone who does not play BDO for instance does spend their time on that board frequently putting it down has no qualms about pointing out that I should not be commenting about EvE having not played it. What's good for the gander is good for the goose I guess.
See, you just make baseless assumptions and poor attempt to bring it down to personal level. You never learn, I guess...?
I never said you cannot comment on EVE, I only pointed out how unsubstantial and biased your comments are.
Here's a twist how about PVE is ruining PVP. When you have a game that has both, then there is going to be two sides. The PVE crowd and the PVP crowd. When a game tries to balance it out to make both parties happy it fails every time. In my experience, notice I said my; the PVE folks seems to get what they want. The PVP folks always get the shaft and become the bastard step child. There are exceptions from time to time and the coin is flipped, but for the most part PVP becomes ruined because of the PVE side. I say have only PVE games, and PVP games. Never try to do both because it always becomes a big mess.
While PvE may ruin fun for PvPer's in the Open world side of the game (devs often get rid of it altogether). PvP undoubtedly ruins CC and anything tactically powerful for PvE folks (unless devs use their brains and have abilities function different in PvE and PvP which most don't for unknown reasons).
So it goes both ways. I actually prefer games with both in the open world with a few restrictions obviously.
No I don't hate it , I don't pvp much anymore. I started on Asheron's call Darktide, a rather infamous pvp server, did DAOC and a few others, wot, some other shooters, but now, not so much, I'm playing BDO, can't say as the pvp has grabbed my attention yet.
MMO's these days do not seem to do pvp well. some are to equipment based, some leave ganks in place in a game where much of the pop is more interested in pve. PvP'ers complain more about balance as it is more important than in pve generating changes not popular with the PvE crowd. Gear grinds just to be competitive. PvP is competitive by nature, many simply want to kill a few mobs, raise horses, craft or whatever, interact with the game and other players and not be killed just because someone can. They take the game for it's more relaxed PvE structure.
DAOC with RvR was a great balance, a pity the scheme is not more wide spread.
If you really like to PvP there are much better genres (MOBA's, shooters, fighting games, RTS's). MMORPG's implement PvP so poorly that it's no wonder a lot of the player base doesn't like it. Then again, the only thing this genre does well anymore is design cash shops.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
If you really like to PvP there are much better genres (MOBA's, shooters, fighting games, RTS's). MMORPG's implement PvP so poorly that it's no wonder a lot of the player base doesn't like it. Then again, the only thing this genre does well anymore is design cash shops.
None of those games have an environment like SWG or DAOC did, so no, those games do not offer what I seek. They are certainly not better...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Since I'm clueless what I say has no impact . It should not draw such ire. Me thinks one doth protest too much
He's not wrong. Some of what has been written about Eve is based on a few players bad experience with the game. That is fine, that is their opinion however, I would caution against re-stating that same opinion as your own. If I had only ever read that people hate pizza, and I decided I hate pizza as well based off what they say and not actually experiencing pizza, I would be somewhat ignorant in repeating my thoughts to others. This is essentially what you are doing. Saying: I have no interest in learning any more about said game/food/topic based off what others have said, sounds much better than taking a strong position and damning a topic you essentially only know about via rumor. I hope that helps.
The issue with perpetuating this rumor is that you are informing others, based off rumors that XYZ is bad. It ruins your credibility as well as degrades the potential for new players to find a game they may have otherwise enjoyed had they not read your uninformed and wrongly biased opinion.
As a side note, when approached with the proper attitude, Eve is a magnificent game and you can have heaps of fun. Sort of the same with PvP in general.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I don't mind PvP, it's just that it's horrible in MMORPG's. As long as you have a level based or otherwise long term advancement system, it will be ill suited for PvP. Because in those cases, people looking to PvP will generally go looking for lower level players and low hanging fruit; particularly those who aren't looking to PvP. Or they'll just try to put together the biggest group and zerg.
This is why games that are essentially "pre-gen" games (fighting, strategy/tactical games, mario-kart-ish games) are popular. Everything else seems like arbitrary gimping. "I'll lose every time cuz he's "10 better".
It is about vocal weirdos that try to demonize not just EVE or any particular game and it's player base but PVP in general.
Who's actually doing that? Most people I see demonize EVE (including myself) focus on the fact that (a) it's called a PVP game despite predominantly not being about PVP and (b) although a year of EVE played by thousands of players might make an interesting story, when you dig into the specifics of each individual game session of those players you realize the game is incredibly boring.
I haven't seen anyone actually expand upon that to complain about PVP in general. Keep in mind world PVP isn't PVP in general. World PVP is a very specific and very small subset of PVPing. And a rather strong argument can be made that since most of your time in a world PVP game isn't spent PVPing, they might not deserve to be considered PVP games at all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Axehilt said:
Who's actually doing that? Most people I see demonize EVE (including myself) focus on the fact that (a) it's called a PVP game despite predominantly not being about PVP and (b) although a year of EVE played by thousands of players might make an interesting story, when you dig into the specifics of each individual game session of those players you realize the game is incredibly boring.
I haven't seen anyone actually expand upon that to complain about PVP in general. Keep in mind world PVP isn't PVP in general. World PVP is a very specific and very small subset of PVPing. And a rather strong argument can be made that since most of your time in a world PVP game isn't spent PVPing, they might not deserve to be considered PVP games at all.
That is a heap of personal, arbitrary qualifiers and assumptions. I think I will leave it at that since it speaks volumes.
That is a heap of personal, arbitrary qualifiers and assumptions. I think I will leave it at that since it speaks volumes.
Let's say you log in for a PVP session. Is more of your time spent (a) in PVP combat, or (b) doing all the various other stuff preparing for PVP combat (traveling, traveling after dying, traveling to search for targets to hit, waiting at a portal for targets, rallying with others, etc)?
If you can't honestly answer (A), then what I've described is true.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Answers
Yes I like PvP, I do not like ganking lowbies. Yes I like open world PvP I do not like camping some poor bastard all day. Yes I like PvP when people that don't can opt out of it.
I hate PvP when they try to balance PvE based off PvP or vice versa. I hate pvp when it is implemented as an after thought. I hate PvP when PvErs play a PvP game (Eve, etc) then cry endlessly about getting killed or when kids log into PvP lobby games and bitch about dying. Don't PvP if you don't want to die. The best players in any game die now and then.
I am not a huge fan of Arena's, but I understand why people are. I think PvP adds a very competitive edge to a game and I really enjoy that. However, to repeat what I said above don't try to force the two together. This is one reason I really enjoy the flag system (ala SWG minus the balance issues). If you feel like getting down with dome PvP it's there, if not you can go cuddle your wookie all day.
TL DR: No, if done properly.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Unfortunately, it is difficult to get it right, and most don't even try. Heck, in Blade & Soul you had to change to a faction outfit, so it was always consenting, and still it was soo bad most of the times..people ganged you 5 on 1, but when you killed two of them alone they flamed you "wait till i logged over to my main".
Was is needed is some sort of police form. Official or inofficial. Doesn't matter who or what, or if it's always the same. But: You ganked one guy, you get killed if they happen to see you. You ganked two guys, they'll look for you. You ganked three guys, they'll know where you logged out. And they'll be waiting..
Of course it's something different on an official battlefield or for the participants (!) of guild wars. But if you kill the wrong guy, you better start running.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
Instead it's a competition of "who played longer?" (progression imbalance) or "who brought more friends?" (population imbalance) and neither is a particularly interesting or skillful way to win a fight.
So:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It is about vocal weirdos that try to demonize not just EVE or any particular game and it's player base but PVP in general.
I did read with interest some of the scams though so it's a bit of a lie to say I have no interest but those goings on did make me laugh at the stupidity.
The thing that always struck me is the real money people stood to lose have lost when their ships got blown up and that made me chuckle.
Pretty much proves the point, doesn't it?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It is like a snowball, some weirdo make some stupid claim and others keep repeating it...
See, you just make baseless assumptions and poor attempt to bring it down to personal level. You never learn, I guess...?
I never said you cannot comment on EVE, I only pointed out how unsubstantial and biased your comments are.
So it goes both ways. I actually prefer games with both in the open world with a few restrictions obviously.
Non-consensual open world PvP with full looting is the worst.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
MMO's these days do not seem to do pvp well. some are to equipment based, some leave ganks in place in a game where much of the pop is more interested in pve. PvP'ers complain more about balance as it is more important than in pve generating changes not popular with the PvE crowd. Gear grinds just to be competitive. PvP is competitive by nature, many simply want to kill a few mobs, raise horses, craft or whatever, interact with the game and other players and not be killed just because someone can. They take the game for it's more relaxed PvE structure.
DAOC with RvR was a great balance, a pity the scheme is not more wide spread.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The issue with perpetuating this rumor is that you are informing others, based off rumors that XYZ is bad. It ruins your credibility as well as degrades the potential for new players to find a game they may have otherwise enjoyed had they not read your uninformed and wrongly biased opinion.
As a side note, when approached with the proper attitude, Eve is a magnificent game and you can have heaps of fun. Sort of the same with PvP in general.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
This is why games that are essentially "pre-gen" games (fighting, strategy/tactical games, mario-kart-ish games) are popular. Everything else seems like arbitrary gimping. "I'll lose every time cuz he's "10 better".
There is no point making assumptions about things you have no understanding nor experience with.
I haven't seen anyone actually expand upon that to complain about PVP in general. Keep in mind world PVP isn't PVP in general. World PVP is a very specific and very small subset of PVPing. And a rather strong argument can be made that since most of your time in a world PVP game isn't spent PVPing, they might not deserve to be considered PVP games at all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you can't honestly answer (A), then what I've described is true.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver