Multiplayer Ships discussion.

filmoret

As we all know one of the biggest obstacles in SC is the multicrew ships.  At first glance and even after thinking about it for a while players can really see how this is something awesome.  I find a few flaws with this idea and wonder if they will be able to implement it properly.  

The first and biggest problem is making it valuable for everyone on the ship.  What is the point in being on one of those huge ships if they really don't have much of a reason for it?  I believe this will be one of CIG's biggest obstacles in this project.  You could end up with players on board a capital ship and spend 8 hours only to have made 1/10th of the money they would have made running around in a solo ship.

The second is giving the players something to do while they are on the ship.  Its hard enough to organize 20 players to do something.  Better yet give them something to do for two hours other then sit at a station and wait.  The good part is CIG will be selling npc's to help run a ship so you won't need all those players.

The third is stopping trolls.  What if one of the players is some kind of spy or troll and ends up just killing others on the ship?  Will they be able to flag this person or kick them off the ship?  If that person killed 5 players before he died then how much time was wasted?  You would also have players cloaking in ships and sneaking on board as well.

I admit the idea sounds really cool.  But the actual mechanics and reality that this is a mmo brings much more difficulties then we first imagined.

Babuinix

Multicrew will be whatever you and your mates do with it, you can make your own fun, being it following militarized rules or just casual goofy fun. Sandbox inside a sandbox.

Turrican187

Babuinix said:

Multicrew will be whatever you and your mates do with it, you can make your own fun, being it following militarized rules or just casual goofy fun. Sandbox inside a sandbox.

Please educate yourself what qualifies as a "sandbox game/mode" 

Erillion

May i suggest as an example the rather interesting multiplayer ship operation in Star Wars Galaxies?
http://swg.wikia.com/wiki/Multi-Player_Ship_Operation_Guide
It was a great thing to have a fully crewed highly efficient multiplayer ship in that game. And great fun for a group of friends/guild-mates. We NEVER did it for cash-per-hour. For that, solo-macro-grinding was invented. So it did not matter if one could earn more piloting his ship solo.

W.r.t. your second question ... if someone is killing off your crew because he is a spy ... you better get out of your seat and kill HIM before he kills YOU ;-)   If you do not, then (s)he has EARNED that ship (s)he just conquered. You could have some talented and well equipped marines on board to protect yourself against this danger. The crew IS able to fight against the intruder. They are NOT able to flag the intruder and kick him off the ship via vote. If someone sneaks on board of your ship and is able to stay hidden ... more power to him ! Although he cannot steal your ship while you are offline, he can murder you and your crew and steal your ship while you are online. I would not recommend to log off in the middle of a FPS firefight - i am quite sure that just as in EVE there is a timer running before you can safely log off. If you have only NPC crew on board, i guess it will be much easier for a player intruder to kill off the crew of a multiplayer ship.

The NPCs you can hire will come in several competence levels ... and good ones will cost you.
That system could be a bit like Star Trek Online. Maybe those NPC's have some unique abilities too (e.g. very accurate ... the computer could cheat a bit and this NPC hits more often with his guns).


Have fun 

filmoret

Babuinix said:

Multicrew will be whatever you and your mates do with it, you can make your own fun, being it following militarized rules or just casual goofy fun. Sandbox inside a sandbox.

Like all the stations in SWTOR.  They are just in the way and players run through them as fast as they can.  Mostly wishing they didn't even have the stations in the first place.  Countless hours building the stations and forcing players to go through them only to find that they are completely useless no matter how creative the players are.

In case you don't know what I mean then try to land on a planet.  First you have to enter the space station.  Then run through the station to the shuttle.  Then run through the ground station to the outside.  Its a lot of nice looking stations but complete waste of time and space.

Shinimas

The balancing will be a huge task which I don't think they even concern themsevles about at this point. I've no idea why would you two-man a Freelancer when you can fly it yourself and have a buddy on another ship nearby.

Large ships is pretty easy, though - just hire people that you know, old-timers from your guild etc. Putting a spy inside the enemy crew or bribing people to sabotage it from the inside may be an interesting strategy.

filmoret

I think the biggest money maker for them would be to capture ships with it.  This kind of thing will take guild organization to a whole new level.  I can understand the difficulties they face with this dynamic.  You can't allow a 5 player ship to simply roll up on a carrier and easily take that kind of ship.  It needs to be extremely difficult to near impossible for them.  Now take like 10 of those 5 player ships then yes it should be kinda challenging but possible.  Then they need to make sure you don't have any kind of self destruct which the hackers will have to try to disable ect ect...

Babuinix

There are also the NPC's that you can hire to help. Those are all problems for Star Citizen folks to solve, they are the professionals hired to to just that so when I gave them my money It was because I trusted them as so.

rpmcmurphy

There's only one thing that's for sure. The Goons are going to have a field day with multicrew ships. Ruining some wallet warrior's fantasy of roleplaying Picard will be the cause of many a guffaw.

fatears

rpmcmurphy said:

There's only one thing that's for sure. The Goons are going to have a field day with multicrew ships. Ruining some wallet warrior's fantasy of roleplaying Picard will be the cause of many a guffaw.

Make it so! 

Babuinix

That's what we are all hoping for, gameplay for everyone in a living breathing universe. May tears be shed for the sake of pixels bought with money!

VorpalChicken28

It was my understanding that while SC will technically be an MMO, it will feature instanced area's when player density hit's a certain number, so you'll never get massive battles like Eve

Shinimas

vorpal28 said:

It was my understanding that while SC will technically be an MMO, it will feature instanced area's when player density hit's a certain number, so you'll never get massive battles like Eve

Well, not like in EVE that's for sure, but it all depends on the player/ship cap.

Erillion

vorpal28 said:

It was my understanding that while SC will technically be an MMO, it will feature instanced area's when player density hit's a certain number, so you'll never get massive battles like Eve

There will never be in Star Citizen 4000 ships in one place in one system in one instance like in EVE. It is designed differently than EVE.

However, it is entirely possible for 10000 ships to be in one system in Star Citizen at the same time, in 200 instances of 50 ships each (arbitrary number after optimization, currently its 24). As each battle in each instance leaves some survivors and those survivors are then combined in other instances at some point you will have some people as the "Last Men Standing" after all battles have been fought.

And the winner controls the system.

(until the navy comes in Star Citizen if its an inner well policed system).


Have fun

Gdemami

filmoret said:

As we all know one of the biggest obstacles in SC is the multicrew ships.  At first glance and even after thinking about it for a while players can really see how this is something awesome.  I find a few flaws with this idea and wonder if they will be able to implement it properly.  

The first and biggest problem is making it valuable for everyone on the ship.  What is the point in being on one of those huge ships if they really don't have much of a reason for it?  I believe this will be one of CIG's biggest obstacles in this project.  You could end up with players on board a capital ship and spend 8 hours only to have made 1/10th of the money they would have made running around in a solo ship.

The second is giving the players something to do while they are on the ship.  Its hard enough to organize 20 players to do something.  Better yet give them something to do for two hours other then sit at a station and wait.  The good part is CIG will be selling npc's to help run a ship so you won't need all those players.

The third is stopping trolls.  What if one of the players is some kind of spy or troll and ends up just killing others on the ship?  Will they be able to flag this person or kick them off the ship?  If that person killed 5 players before he died then how much time was wasted?  You would also have players cloaking in ships and sneaking on board as well.

I admit the idea sounds really cool.  But the actual mechanics and reality that this is a mmo brings much more difficulties then we first imagined.

It is not only multi-crew ships, it is the entire concept of having avatar and ship gameplay in a single game.

Same issue applies - providing meaningful content for both aspects of the game is technically, financially and most importantly from design perspective unfeasable.

We have seen these attempts here and there, good example is "recent" X: Rebirth. Leaving technical difficulties and overall underperformance of the game aside, once you get out of your ship, there is nothing meaningful to do. Instead of just using coms and UI to handle all your station needs, you were forced to get out and run around to pick up jobs, shopping, etc., only to justify FPS content.

And the issue will scale accordingly - the more FPS content you have, harder time you will have to justify it's presence vs return on investment for such content.


Like all dreams, it looks good and nice until you meet reality.

Shodanas

filmoret said:

Babuinix said:

Multicrew will be whatever you and your mates do with it, you can make your own fun, being it following militarized rules or just casual goofy fun. Sandbox inside a sandbox.

Like all the stations in SWTOR.  They are just in the way and players run through them as fast as they can.  Mostly wishing they didn't even have the stations in the first place.  Countless hours building the stations and forcing players to go through them only to find that they are completely useless no matter how creative the players are.

In case you don't know what I mean then try to land on a planet.  First you have to enter the space station.  Then run through the station to the shuttle.  Then run through the ground station to the outside.  Its a lot of nice looking stations but complete waste of time and space.

You just compared SC's multicrew ships with orbital stations in TOR ? I do not even dare to follow your reasoning.

Totally out of context and figurative to the extreme.

Unless you have some info about said ships we backers and alpha participants don't have.

You start a discussion about a theme regarding a game you have no access to and in your first reply you make it abundantly clear that you're not interested in a discussion. You where just looking for an excuse to rant.

Erillion

vorpal28 said:

It was my understanding that while SC will technically be an MMO, it will feature instanced area's when player density hit's a certain number, so you'll never get massive battles like Eve

Most MMO's these days use instances in case of high player density.

EVE is the exception, not the rule.


Have fun

filmoret

Shodanas said:

filmoret said:

Babuinix said:

Multicrew will be whatever you and your mates do with it, you can make your own fun, being it following militarized rules or just casual goofy fun. Sandbox inside a sandbox.

Like all the stations in SWTOR.  They are just in the way and players run through them as fast as they can.  Mostly wishing they didn't even have the stations in the first place.  Countless hours building the stations and forcing players to go through them only to find that they are completely useless no matter how creative the players are.

In case you don't know what I mean then try to land on a planet.  First you have to enter the space station.  Then run through the station to the shuttle.  Then run through the ground station to the outside.  Its a lot of nice looking stations but complete waste of time and space.

You just compared SC's multicrew ships with orbital stations in TOR ? I do not even dare to follow your reasoning.

Totally out of context and figurative to the extreme.

Unless you have some info about said ships we backers and alpha participants don't have.

You start a discussion about a theme regarding a game you have no access to and in your first reply you make it abundantly clear that you're not interested in a discussion. You where just looking for an excuse to rant.

He was saying that players will create an experience because thats what players do.  I was showing clearly that players do not create experiences simply because there is something in the way.  Players avoid things that do not profit them.  Sorry for the confusion.  If you put too much running from point a-b without anything constructive in the middle then well players will flat out refuse to participate.

Erillion

filmoret said:

  If you put too much running from point a-b without anything constructive in the middle then well players will flat out refuse to participate.

***cough cough ** Dailies **cough cough***


Have fun

tinuelle

Erillion said:

filmoret said:

  If you put too much running from point a-b without anything constructive in the middle then well players will flat out refuse to participate.

***cough cough ** Dailies **cough cough***


Have fun

Plz no more daily grind. I'll pay money to not do that

Erillion

tinuelle said:

Erillion said:

filmoret said:

  If you put too much running from point a-b without anything constructive in the middle then well players will flat out refuse to participate.

***cough cough ** Dailies **cough cough***


Have fun

Plz no more daily grind. I'll pay money to not do that

I did not mean that anyone should put dailies into SC.

I meant that dailies are  "running from point a-b without anything constructive in the middle" and many players do ANYTHING BUT flat out refuse to participate. Its classical Pavlov conditioning at work. Stimulus. Reward.Stimulus. Reward......


Have fun

filmoret

Erillion said:

filmoret said:

  If you put too much running from point a-b without anything constructive in the middle then well players will flat out refuse to participate.

***cough cough ** Dailies **cough cough***


Have fun

I think a good solution would be for the larger ships able to carry such a massive amount of cargo that it makes worth for everyone to get on board and help deliver.  So long as the economy isn't 100% player driven because then it would require someone to buy the cargo.  IDK exactly what they have planned but if they made certain elements rare in certain sectors it would require them to be hauling stuff around instead of just having everything right there.  Eve did a good job about economy.

Erillion

filmoret said:

  So long as the economy isn't 100% player driven because then it would require someone to buy the cargo. 

Its 90 % NPC : 10 % PC   


Have fun

filmoret

Just wanted people to realize how truly complex this one feature is to handle properly.  Lets take turrets for example.  Whats to stop someone from just getting in a turret and shooting friendlies.  Imagine pulling out of a station and next thing you know one of the turrets is attacking the local police.  Now you have the police attacking your very expensive capital ship.  These things have to be considered before launching the game because the potential for disaster is just too great.  Or in the middle of a battle you got one player shooting all the turret gunners in the back of the head.  They don't realize they died to friendly fire instead they believe the turret itself was just blown up by an enemy ship.

Yes I know there are a few easy fixes for this scenario but at the same time there's at least 100 other scenario's we haven't even thought about and they will need to be speedy on how they handle these things.

Erillion

filmoret said:

Just wanted people to realize how truly complex this one feature is to handle properly.  Lets take turrets for example.  Whats to stop someone from just getting in a turret and shooting friendlies.  Imagine pulling out of a station and next thing you know one of the turrets is attacking the local police.  Now you have the police attacking your very expensive capital ship.  These things have to be considered before launching the game because the potential for disaster is just too great.  Or in the middle of a battle you got one player shooting all the turret gunners in the back of the head.  They don't realize they died to friendly fire instead they believe the turret itself was just blown up by an enemy ship.

Yes I know there are a few easy fixes for this scenario but at the same time there's at least 100 other scenario's we haven't even thought about and they will need to be speedy on how they handle these things.

All of this will be EXPLICITELY allowed in Star Citizen  (Yes,at some point you CAN lock your ship ;-)

If you let a spy into your ship and he murders your crew .... he is a good spy. And you need a new ship and hopefully you have LTI and/or paid your insurance fee ;-)

To my knowledge there wont be any FIXES for such scenarios. That is as it is designed. It was even given as an example by one of the devs  (player hidding in a cargo crate to get inside a ship and murder the crew).


Have fun

filmoret

Erillion said:

filmoret said:

Just wanted people to realize how truly complex this one feature is to handle properly.  Lets take turrets for example.  Whats to stop someone from just getting in a turret and shooting friendlies.  Imagine pulling out of a station and next thing you know one of the turrets is attacking the local police.  Now you have the police attacking your very expensive capital ship.  These things have to be considered before launching the game because the potential for disaster is just too great.  Or in the middle of a battle you got one player shooting all the turret gunners in the back of the head.  They don't realize they died to friendly fire instead they believe the turret itself was just blown up by an enemy ship.

Yes I know there are a few easy fixes for this scenario but at the same time there's at least 100 other scenario's we haven't even thought about and they will need to be speedy on how they handle these things.

All of this will be EXPLICITELY allowed in Star Citizen  (Yes,at some point you CAN lock your ship ;-)

If you let a spy into your ship and he murders your crew .... he is a good spy. And you need a new ship and hopefully you have LTI and/or paid your insurance fee ;-)

To my knowledge there wont be any FIXES for such scenarios. That is as it is designed. It was even given as an example by one of the devs  (player hidding in a cargo crate to get inside a ship and murder the crew).


Have fun

I can see how this could be good for a game.  They also have to see how this can be a disaster.  Which is why certain things must be put in place to prevent single players from easily capturing ships because of game design.  It shouldn't be easy to do but possible.  Sounds like they are just allowing it instead of fixing it.  Which is an extremely bad idea.  They saw how the goons trolled and had to make changes already.  This will be magnified by 100x when you are talking about capital ships which literally cost players thousands of dollars.  Noone wants to do deck sweeps before they leave port to make sure some troll isn't hiding somewhere.  Imagine how much time that alone would waste.

Take Mortal Online and Archeage as examples of what they thought was emergent gameplay when it was actually just game mechanics that supported trolling.