By closely linking character progression to quests, you're killing off massive amounts of player freedom. In almost every MMO of the last decade, the quickest / best way to level has been grinding quests. It sucks. The stories are derivative and boring. The quests themselves are just minor variations on the same old shit. I absolutely hate it.
So, I say remove all XP from questing. That would mean a return to mob grinding as the quickest way to level which I know some would hate, but the quests would still be there for those who want the stories (and rewards) from questing. For those of us who hate questing, we would be able to head out into the world and make our own way again. I know we can technically still do that now, but the amount of XP you get in comparison to quests is so low that its not worth it.
Funny how you talk about player freedom and then suggest taking away freedom to choose to quest for xp for massive amount of players. Well it is not funny, it is nonsensical and hypocritical.
I'd like to point out something here. Freedom usually means player freedom in an mmorpgs. ie being able to pick and choose activities you want to do and to actually do them and to pick and choose activities you don't want to do and to actually not do them. imo Questing for xp usually limits this kind of freedom because it sets the player on a predefined path where perhaps many do's and don't's are tied together.
And though one attraction of an mmorpg can be when one is put in to an unfamiliar situation of do's and don't's but such unfamiliar situations can also happen when not questing for xp
Questing provides an alternative option to meaningless grinding for hours for millions of players. You are talking about freedom of choice and still refuse to see that choosing to quest for xp is also a choice?
So, when playing a "traditional" MMO, at any given level I usually have a "choice" of 10-20 quests that I can complete in a very small area of the world, or I can grind a small amount of mobs in the same area instead and have it take 3-5x the amount of time to progress.
My choices are very limited. What I'm killing, whether through questing or grinding, is usually the same and I'm stuck with a very small area to do it in. Because my choice is the same, I opt for the quickest method (questing).
In games where quests don't reward XP, the developers tend to focus a lot more of making the combat interesting, the mobs more interesting and the world more interesting. At any given level, in the games I've played you can generally go anywhere and find something worthwhile to kill. I can progress just about anywhere, thus I have much more freedom.
I guess I wouldn't mind questing with xp so much if there were other viable methods of leveling. Some games allow you to level up via PvP which I've always found more enjoyable, but you still end up essentially grinding the same few players / spots for hours on end, so its more enjoyable but less freedom. In some games with questing there have been "work-arounds" to find other ways to level - e.g. in WAR, getting in an AoE focused group and grinding PQs for hours. Again, more enjoyable for me (I'm quite social) but still less freedom.
Finally, I'm not advocating removing quests from MMOs. Quests are still one of the best ways to tell stories and can help provide structure to those who need it. I'd still put rewards on quests (loot and gold), just not xp, so questing would still be worthwhile, you'd still be killing lots of stuff and so still leveling, its just you'd be slightly slower than someone purely focused on grinding mobs, but slightly richer / better geared due to quest rewards. This would make both methods of leveling viable and attractive, compared to now where only questing is viable.
And i am saying removing xp from questing is just taking away choice from players who want to play the game through questing. Think simply. All i see in your post is that you want everyone to do what you like to do, your bullshit about "choice" is only about your play style, it doesn't represent the vast majority that don't want to spend hours upon hours in grinding.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
jesteralways said: Questing provides an alternative option to meaningless grinding for hours for millions of players. You are talking about freedom of choice and still refuse to see that choosing to quest for xp is also a choice?
For exampe: Avoid doing the low-income MMOWelfare Dailies and devote the same time to something more profitable.
Not only are you happier, but also wealthier and wiser.
That is not for you to choose, it is the player's choice what they wanna do and how they wanna make profit. Stop trying to choose for someone else.
By closely linking character progression to quests, you're killing off massive amounts of player freedom. In almost every MMO of the last decade, the quickest / best way to level has been grinding quests. It sucks. The stories are derivative and boring. The quests themselves are just minor variations on the same old shit. I absolutely hate it.
So, I say remove all XP from questing. That would mean a return to mob grinding as the quickest way to level which I know some would hate, but the quests would still be there for those who want the stories (and rewards) from questing. For those of us who hate questing, we would be able to head out into the world and make our own way again. I know we can technically still do that now, but the amount of XP you get in comparison to quests is so low that its not worth it.
Funny how you talk about player freedom and then suggest taking away freedom to choose to quest for xp for massive amount of players. Well it is not funny, it is nonsensical and hypocritical.
I'd like to point out something here. Freedom usually means player freedom in an mmorpgs. ie being able to pick and choose activities you want to do and to actually do them and to pick and choose activities you don't want to do and to actually not do them. imo Questing for xp usually limits this kind of freedom because it sets the player on a predefined path where perhaps many do's and don't's are tied together.
And though one attraction of an mmorpg can be when one is put in to an unfamiliar situation of do's and don't's but such unfamiliar situations can also happen when not questing for xp
Questing provides an alternative option to meaningless grinding for hours for millions of players. You are talking about freedom of choice and still refuse to see that choosing to quest for xp is also a choice?
If you are talking about a single game, no it's not a choice.
I have no idea what you are talking about. single game? i am not talking about a single game here, i am talking about the concept of "freedom of choice" and the claim that "questing takes away freedom of choice". Players always have a choice not to quest. You don't need to believe me, just go ask the player who makes the most gold in WoW or the person who hits level cap in 2 days in WoW or the person who has the best gears, they don't do it by questing. If anything i would say games need to give 100 times more xp and gold in quests, since obviously i can't make as much gold or have shiny gears or level up way too fast like those who ignore quests.
If your mmo or mmos experience is questing for xp, making the most gold, hitting the level cap in 2 days and/or having the best gears then we're so far apart from each other that I'm not surprised you don't see my point.
And it seems your idea of argument is to deflect factual example with nonsense, no wonder i am not understanding any of your nonsensical post.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
By closely linking character progression to quests, you're killing off massive amounts of player freedom. In almost every MMO of the last decade, the quickest / best way to level has been grinding quests. It sucks. The stories are derivative and boring. The quests themselves are just minor variations on the same old shit. I absolutely hate it.
So, I say remove all XP from questing. That would mean a return to mob grinding as the quickest way to level which I know some would hate, but the quests would still be there for those who want the stories (and rewards) from questing. For those of us who hate questing, we would be able to head out into the world and make our own way again. I know we can technically still do that now, but the amount of XP you get in comparison to quests is so low that its not worth it.
Funny how you talk about player freedom and then suggest taking away freedom to choose to quest for xp for massive amount of players. Well it is not funny, it is nonsensical and hypocritical.
I'd like to point out something here. Freedom usually means player freedom in an mmorpgs. ie being able to pick and choose activities you want to do and to actually do them and to pick and choose activities you don't want to do and to actually not do them. imo Questing for xp usually limits this kind of freedom because it sets the player on a predefined path where perhaps many do's and don't's are tied together.
And though one attraction of an mmorpg can be when one is put in to an unfamiliar situation of do's and don't's but such unfamiliar situations can also happen when not questing for xp
Questing provides an alternative option to meaningless grinding for hours for millions of players. You are talking about freedom of choice and still refuse to see that choosing to quest for xp is also a choice?
So, when playing a "traditional" MMO, at any given level I usually have a "choice" of 10-20 quests that I can complete in a very small area of the world, or I can grind a small amount of mobs in the same area instead and have it take 3-5x the amount of time to progress.
My choices are very limited. What I'm killing, whether through questing or grinding, is usually the same and I'm stuck with a very small area to do it in. Because my choice is the same, I opt for the quickest method (questing).
In games where quests don't reward XP, the developers tend to focus a lot more of making the combat interesting, the mobs more interesting and the world more interesting. At any given level, in the games I've played you can generally go anywhere and find something worthwhile to kill. I can progress just about anywhere, thus I have much more freedom.
I guess I wouldn't mind questing with xp so much if there were other viable methods of leveling. Some games allow you to level up via PvP which I've always found more enjoyable, but you still end up essentially grinding the same few players / spots for hours on end, so its more enjoyable but less freedom. In some games with questing there have been "work-arounds" to find other ways to level - e.g. in WAR, getting in an AoE focused group and grinding PQs for hours. Again, more enjoyable for me (I'm quite social) but still less freedom.
Finally, I'm not advocating removing quests from MMOs. Quests are still one of the best ways to tell stories and can help provide structure to those who need it. I'd still put rewards on quests (loot and gold), just not xp, so questing would still be worthwhile, you'd still be killing lots of stuff and so still leveling, its just you'd be slightly slower than someone purely focused on grinding mobs, but slightly richer / better geared due to quest rewards. This would make both methods of leveling viable and attractive, compared to now where only questing is viable.
And i am saying removing xp from questing is just taking away choice from players who want to play the game through questing. Think simply. All i see in your post is that you want everyone to do what you like to do, your bullshit about "choice" is only about your play style, it doesn't represent the vast majority that don't want to spend hours upon hours in grinding.
I want more than one viable way to level up my characters. By viable, I mean roughly equivalent in both the time it takes to do so and variety.
In games with lots of XP attached to quests, questing is usually the only viable method. Grinding mobs is usually between 3 and 10x the amount of time required and less variety. PvP is usually 2-5x the amount of time required and less variety (if the game even allows it).
In games with no XP attached to quests, questing, grinding mobs and pvp are usually roughly equivalent in terms of time taken and rewards, giving the average player more choice.
Of course, it all comes down to implementation and personal preference. I've never played an MMO with good questing, they've all sucked in my opinion due to poor quality generic writing and quest objectives that are meaningless. Perhaps one day an MMO will do it right, at which point I'll change my opinion, but until then I'll retain my preference for combat because I've at least seen that done well on a few occasions.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
By closely linking character progression to quests, you're killing off massive amounts of player freedom. In almost every MMO of the last decade, the quickest / best way to level has been grinding quests. It sucks. The stories are derivative and boring. The quests themselves are just minor variations on the same old shit. I absolutely hate it.
So, I say remove all XP from questing. That would mean a return to mob grinding as the quickest way to level which I know some would hate, but the quests would still be there for those who want the stories (and rewards) from questing. For those of us who hate questing, we would be able to head out into the world and make our own way again. I know we can technically still do that now, but the amount of XP you get in comparison to quests is so low that its not worth it.
Funny how you talk about player freedom and then suggest taking away freedom to choose to quest for xp for massive amount of players. Well it is not funny, it is nonsensical and hypocritical.
I'd like to point out something here. Freedom usually means player freedom in an mmorpgs. ie being able to pick and choose activities you want to do and to actually do them and to pick and choose activities you don't want to do and to actually not do them. imo Questing for xp usually limits this kind of freedom because it sets the player on a predefined path where perhaps many do's and don't's are tied together.
And though one attraction of an mmorpg can be when one is put in to an unfamiliar situation of do's and don't's but such unfamiliar situations can also happen when not questing for xp
Questing provides an alternative option to meaningless grinding for hours for millions of players. You are talking about freedom of choice and still refuse to see that choosing to quest for xp is also a choice?
So, when playing a "traditional" MMO, at any given level I usually have a "choice" of 10-20 quests that I can complete in a very small area of the world, or I can grind a small amount of mobs in the same area instead and have it take 3-5x the amount of time to progress.
My choices are very limited. What I'm killing, whether through questing or grinding, is usually the same and I'm stuck with a very small area to do it in. Because my choice is the same, I opt for the quickest method (questing).
In games where quests don't reward XP, the developers tend to focus a lot more of making the combat interesting, the mobs more interesting and the world more interesting. At any given level, in the games I've played you can generally go anywhere and find something worthwhile to kill. I can progress just about anywhere, thus I have much more freedom.
I guess I wouldn't mind questing with xp so much if there were other viable methods of leveling. Some games allow you to level up via PvP which I've always found more enjoyable, but you still end up essentially grinding the same few players / spots for hours on end, so its more enjoyable but less freedom. In some games with questing there have been "work-arounds" to find other ways to level - e.g. in WAR, getting in an AoE focused group and grinding PQs for hours. Again, more enjoyable for me (I'm quite social) but still less freedom.
Finally, I'm not advocating removing quests from MMOs. Quests are still one of the best ways to tell stories and can help provide structure to those who need it. I'd still put rewards on quests (loot and gold), just not xp, so questing would still be worthwhile, you'd still be killing lots of stuff and so still leveling, its just you'd be slightly slower than someone purely focused on grinding mobs, but slightly richer / better geared due to quest rewards. This would make both methods of leveling viable and attractive, compared to now where only questing is viable.
And i am saying removing xp from questing is just taking away choice from players who want to play the game through questing. Think simply. All i see in your post is that you want everyone to do what you like to do, your bullshit about "choice" is only about your play style, it doesn't represent the vast majority that don't want to spend hours upon hours in grinding.
I want more than one viable way to level up my characters. By viable, I mean roughly equivalent in both the time it takes to do so and variety.
In games with lots of XP attached to quests, questing is usually the only viable method. Grinding mobs is usually between 3 and 10x the amount of time required and less variety. PvP is usually 2-5x the amount of time required and less variety (if the game even allows it).
In games with no XP attached to quests, questing, grinding mobs and pvp are usually roughly equivalent in terms of time taken and rewards, giving the average player more choice.
Of course, it all comes down to implementation and personal preference. I've never played an MMO with good questing, they've all sucked in my opinion due to poor quality generic writing and quest objectives that are meaningless. Perhaps one day an MMO will do it right, at which point I'll change my opinion, but until then I'll retain my preference for combat because I've at least seen that done well on a few occasions.
Yeah, it takes a bit longer to level through mob grinding because mobs have added chance to drop gears better than quest gears and crafting materials. Quest items most of the time are barely adequate and income from questing is minimal to stay relevant so that players can buy some minimal quality appropriate gears for their level. You are making way too much fuss about something that is trivial compared to all the other option available to level up quickly and/or making gold and/or getting better gear.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
The argument that players can just ignore/choose not to use X feature and still enjoy the game really isn't valid.
Any player with a competitive bone in their body will not just ignore systems of convenience or any other crap feature like dailies if they can earn considerably more cash/items/etc by doing it.
Questing provides an alternative option to meaningless grinding for hours for millions of players. You are talking about freedom of choice and still refuse to see that choosing to quest for xp is also a choice?
So, when playing a "traditional" MMO, at any given level I usually have a "choice" of 10-20 quests that I can complete in a very small area of the world, or I can grind a small amount of mobs in the same area instead and have it take 3-5x the amount of time to progress.
My choices are very limited. What I'm killing, whether through questing or grinding, is usually the same and I'm stuck with a very small area to do it in. Because my choice is the same, I opt for the quickest method (questing).
In games where quests don't reward XP, the developers tend to focus a lot more of making the combat interesting, the mobs more interesting and the world more interesting. At any given level, in the games I've played you can generally go anywhere and find something worthwhile to kill. I can progress just about anywhere, thus I have much more freedom.
I guess I wouldn't mind questing with xp so much if there were other viable methods of leveling. Some games allow you to level up via PvP which I've always found more enjoyable, but you still end up essentially grinding the same few players / spots for hours on end, so its more enjoyable but less freedom. In some games with questing there have been "work-arounds" to find other ways to level - e.g. in WAR, getting in an AoE focused group and grinding PQs for hours. Again, more enjoyable for me (I'm quite social) but still less freedom.
Finally, I'm not advocating removing quests from MMOs. Quests are still one of the best ways to tell stories and can help provide structure to those who need it. I'd still put rewards on quests (loot and gold), just not xp, so questing would still be worthwhile, you'd still be killing lots of stuff and so still leveling, its just you'd be slightly slower than someone purely focused on grinding mobs, but slightly richer / better geared due to quest rewards. This would make both methods of leveling viable and attractive, compared to now where only questing is viable.
And i am saying removing xp from questing is just taking away choice from players who want to play the game through questing. Think simply. All i see in your post is that you want everyone to do what you like to do, your bullshit about "choice" is only about your play style, it doesn't represent the vast majority that don't want to spend hours upon hours in grinding.
I want more than one viable way to level up my characters. By viable, I mean roughly equivalent in both the time it takes to do so and variety.
In games with lots of XP attached to quests, questing is usually the only viable method. Grinding mobs is usually between 3 and 10x the amount of time required and less variety. PvP is usually 2-5x the amount of time required and less variety (if the game even allows it).
In games with no XP attached to quests, questing, grinding mobs and pvp are usually roughly equivalent in terms of time taken and rewards, giving the average player more choice.
Of course, it all comes down to implementation and personal preference. I've never played an MMO with good questing, they've all sucked in my opinion due to poor quality generic writing and quest objectives that are meaningless. Perhaps one day an MMO will do it right, at which point I'll change my opinion, but until then I'll retain my preference for combat because I've at least seen that done well on a few occasions.
Yeah, it takes a bit longer to level through mob grinding because mobs have added chance to drop gears better than quest gears and crafting materials. Quest items most of the time are barely adequate and income from questing is minimal to stay relevant so that players can buy some minimal quality appropriate gears for their level. You are making way too much fuss about something that is trivial compared to all the other option available to level up quickly and/or making gold and/or getting better gear.
I'll say again, implementation matters.
In the main MMOs I've played long term (LotRO, WAR, SW:TOR) leveling via grinding mobs took a lot longer than grinding levels (with the exception of PQ grinding in WAR in a specific type of group) and didn't give you more gold or loot. It simply took longer.
So, again, I go back to my core arguement: I want multiple options for leveling up that are all equally viable - be it questing, grinding mobs, exploring, crafting, pvp. Whatever. Player choice is key and any game that effectively forces you down one path (as most do now with questing) is doing it wrong and losing players, harming retention rates and losing money long term.
In all the games I've played and most of the ones I've read about where XP is attached to quests, questing becomes the defacto way to level because it is quicker, easier and more rewarding in terms of gear and gold. By removing XP from quests, we force the developers to look at alternative ways to level which should lead to more variety.
A by-product should also be that the quality of quests should improve a lot, because developers no longer need to create 10,000 quests to complete the leveling process, so they can just focus on interesting storylines and interesting quest mechanics.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Camp grinding. The fact FFXI did this or was the best or even only way to level almost made it so I never played an MMO ever again. Not saying easy quest back and forth 'follow the GPS' way of leveling is any better but Id rather move around, explore, find stuff, etc.
That said id rather play a 'new' FFXI over any of these new games (no, FFXIV doesnt count). There are many more elements of modern MMO's id rather not ever see again. Hell, most of it needs to go back to the drawing board and started fresh. From cash shops to streamlined quest hubs meant to take you to end game in a few days, and everything inbetween.
I don't mind grinding, I actually enjoy some aspects of it. I don't mind quest hubs or social centers. I like raids and progression, gear checks and even holy trinities. But what grinds my gears is the lack there of choice to build a character how you want them. Locked in skills/stats and limited gear options are just so boring.
Let me build a glass cannon that dies in 2 hits but keeps on my toes to dodge and use my skills tactically to play the way I want. Forced architecture built into class-based games is just so dull. This is probably the biggest reason a game like Diablo 3 will never truly live up to it's predecessor. Anytime you end up in a situation where there's a best-in-slot, best-in-class, best whatever, it's lame because everyone's end goal is the same.
Dakilla[666] ~ The Realm ~ Level 1000 enchanter (retired) Maranthoric ~ La 4ieme Prophetie ~ Level 160 (5x) HE/Feu (de retour) Leonthoric[DDC] ~ EVE online ~ <Fire The "Laser"> (retired)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Linear quest hubs and forced questing down corridor worlds. I'm not sure how old school these are but they reached a peak with Wildstar. Thankfully there has been some push back from good portions of the player base that want more freedom/choice in future games.
I'm also kinda tired of open world mobs dying in two hits, MMO's shouldn't be like diablo. Combat should be tactical, regardless if it is super slow tab target or action combat.
Quest hubs/linear questing/quest markers. That's the biggest thing for me. It worked in vanilla WoW because it was kinda new and implemented well. Now it's done to death.
Originally posted by Scagweed22 is it the graphics? the repetativenesses? i mean what is the point? you could be so much more productive in real life Real life brings repetition and pointlessness too. The only thing real life offers is Great graphics. Its kinda expensive too and way to dependent on the cash shop. Totally pay to win as well. No thank you. Ill stick to my games.
I don't mind quests,but i want far less and i want them to be epic not just meaningless boring reasons to get xp.
automation...hate it.Example put a tick in a box and it auto updates your skills or "pretend" to hire some npc to attain something but you never really see that npc,it ends up just a stat.
instances don't bother me either but don't turn a game into RAID instancing for loot because that will end up being the ONLY reason people play,which is a SHALLOW reason to call your game a mmorpg. I HATE linear content which is why i DON'T want quests giving xp.
i DON'T want tree systems,they are fake and meaningless.Put 1 point here to get 3 more dmg or 2 pts here to get 5 more healing...NO thanks.A developer should be able to put more creativity into it's design than allot 2 pts every level to attain virtually nothing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Levels, because they simply don't work in multiplayer games. They create unnecessary gap between players and separate the playerbase and friends. They are evil by design.
Tank 'n' spank combat, spawncamping, respawning mobs in dungeons, use-to-improve skill systems, timesinks, grind...
Just off the top of my head. Old "traditional" MMOs were quite horrible.
Maybe you want a game but the type of game should be something other than mmoRPG. Look for something outsite of mmoRPG instead USING mmoRPG for your thing.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Levels. Gender-locked classes. Tanks relying on dull threat-based mechanics that don't have any effect on pvp. A tank should be a linebacker, not a "hit me" sign.
The argument that players can just ignore/choose not to use X feature and still enjoy the game really isn't valid.
Any player with a competitive bone in their body will not just ignore systems of convenience or any other crap feature like dailies if they can earn considerably more cash/items/etc by doing it.
But we know that dailies only provide a welfare income, not a competitive one.
So; safely ignorable, in favor of more profitable pursuits using the same time.
The problem here is how many players are so poorly educated about earning income in an mmo. The guys who are actually good at making fantasy cash won't share how they do it and cut their own throats (by creating a huge influx of new competition).
But anyone who actually sits down and thinks for ten minutes or can easily come up with five ideas that swing more cash than a Daily does. That part is NOT rocket science.
The only bar against is laziness; why think about making coin? I can just press the bar once a day and the treat drops out, Skinner Box conditioning.
Is it the best way? Nope. Is it fun? Nope. But it sure is easy.
Essentially the same issue that quest hub/themepark x.p. has. "It's the easiest so I just have to do it this way (even if I don't like it.)"
Easiest != Required. (Or "forced", right?)
Just need to decide against the path of least resistance. Once in a while.
Levels. Gender-locked classes. Tanks relying on dull threat-based mechanics that don't have any effect on pvp. A tank should be a linebacker, not a "hit me" sign.
Those threat mechanics should not have the impact they do in PvE either. Not sure what a linebacker is, that is a U.S. example and totally meaningless to me. No more turn-and-burn, form a shield wall or a skirmish line between the squishies and the MOB.
The argument that players can just ignore/choose not to use X feature and still enjoy the game really isn't valid.
Any player with a competitive bone in their body will not just ignore systems of convenience or any other crap feature like dailies if they can earn considerably more cash/items/etc by doing it.
But we know that dailies only provide a welfare income, not a competitive one.
So; safely ignorable, in favor of more profitable pursuits using the same time.
The problem here is how many players are so poorly educated about earning income in an mmo. The guys who are actually good at making fantasy cash won't share how they do it and cut their own throats (by creating a huge influx of new competition).
But anyone who actually sits down and thinks for ten minutes or can easily come up with five ideas that swing more cash than a Daily does. That part is NOT rocket science.
The only bar against is laziness; why think about making coin? I can just press the bar once a day and the treat drops out, Skinner Box conditioning.
Is it the best way? Nope. Is it fun? Nope. But it sure is easy.
Essentially the same issue that quest hub x.p. has. "It's the easiest so I just have to do it this way (even if I don't like to.)"
Easiest != Required. (Or "forced", right?)
This is another case of implementation making a big difference. It sounds like you are thinking of WoW, but dailies exist in many other MMOs and have a variety of purposes.
In LotRO, dailies are usually part of reputation grinds. You can get maybe 1/3rd of the way through the rep grind without repeating, but after that you have to do the dailies to advance. Maxing out reputation was the only way to unlock unique mounts, cosmetic equipment, some new armour sets, fast travel locations etc.
There was even a short amount of time when vast amounts of content were locked behind dailies in LotRO. If I remember rightly, when Moria was first released you couldn't access quest hubs until you had enough reputation, but you couldn't get enough reputation without repeating dailies for a few days. They eventually nerfed the rep requirement so it stopped happening, but for 6 months or so it sucked when you got your character to that point and essentially had to stop playing.
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Levels. Gender-locked classes. Tanks relying on dull threat-based mechanics that don't have any effect on pvp. A tank should be a linebacker, not a "hit me" sign.
Those threat mechanics should not have the impact they do in PvE either. Not sure what a linebacker is, that is a U.S. example and totally meaningless to me. No more turn-and-burn, form a shield wall or a skirmish line between the squishies and the MOB.
A linebacker is 250-300 lb (113-136 kg) of meat that sacks the shiz out of anything that comes near it.
Technically, it means they are a tactile defensive player that has to be good at reading plays and countering individual and group actions. Most of the time that boils down to "Ima tackle that guy.", but semantically it's about strategic maneuvering, effective countering, and quick response/predictions.
...think that means you two agree...
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Levels. Gender-locked classes. Tanks relying on dull threat-based mechanics that don't have any effect on pvp. A tank should be a linebacker, not a "hit me" sign.
In games I've played a tank , their taunt abilities act as debuffs in PvP. They could reduce enemies out going dps/heals by 75% if used correctly.
Levels. Gender-locked classes. Tanks relying on dull threat-based mechanics that don't have any effect on pvp. A tank should be a linebacker, not a "hit me" sign.
Those threat mechanics should not have the impact they do in PvE either. Not sure what a linebacker is, that is a U.S. example and totally meaningless to me. No more turn-and-burn, form a shield wall or a skirmish line between the squishies and the MOB.
A linebacker is 250-300 lb (113-136 kg) of meat that sacks the shiz out of anything that comes near it.
Technically, it means they are a tactile defensive player that has to be good at reading plays and countering individual and group actions. Most of the time that boils down to "Ima tackle that guy.", but semantically it's about strategic maneuvering, effective countering, and quick response/predictions.
...think that means you two agree...
I think that Aenfer and I have similar views about tank threat to.
But the linebacker reference is still meaningless to me, your explanation is more confusing than the original. A sack is a bag, wtf does 'tactile defense' mean? Reading plays? Do you mean Hamlet or Macbeth?
Please don't try to explain further, I have limited interest in real football (the one with the World Cup and FIFA) and none at all in the strange Rugby derivative you play in the U.S.
Levels. Gender-locked classes. Tanks relying on dull threat-based mechanics that don't have any effect on pvp. A tank should be a linebacker, not a "hit me" sign.
Those threat mechanics should not have the impact they do in PvE either. Not sure what a linebacker is, that is a U.S. example and totally meaningless to me. No more turn-and-burn, form a shield wall or a skirmish line between the squishies and the MOB.
That's basically what I'm suggesting. I believe that tanks should be protecting their squishies through body-blocking, mobility, and cc rather than threat.
Comments
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
In games with lots of XP attached to quests, questing is usually the only viable method. Grinding mobs is usually between 3 and 10x the amount of time required and less variety. PvP is usually 2-5x the amount of time required and less variety (if the game even allows it).
In games with no XP attached to quests, questing, grinding mobs and pvp are usually roughly equivalent in terms of time taken and rewards, giving the average player more choice.
Of course, it all comes down to implementation and personal preference. I've never played an MMO with good questing, they've all sucked in my opinion due to poor quality generic writing and quest objectives that are meaningless. Perhaps one day an MMO will do it right, at which point I'll change my opinion, but until then I'll retain my preference for combat because I've at least seen that done well on a few occasions.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Any player with a competitive bone in their body will not just ignore systems of convenience or any other crap feature like dailies if they can earn considerably more cash/items/etc by doing it.
In the main MMOs I've played long term (LotRO, WAR, SW:TOR) leveling via grinding mobs took a lot longer than grinding levels (with the exception of PQ grinding in WAR in a specific type of group) and didn't give you more gold or loot. It simply took longer.
So, again, I go back to my core arguement: I want multiple options for leveling up that are all equally viable - be it questing, grinding mobs, exploring, crafting, pvp. Whatever. Player choice is key and any game that effectively forces you down one path (as most do now with questing) is doing it wrong and losing players, harming retention rates and losing money long term.
In all the games I've played and most of the ones I've read about where XP is attached to quests, questing becomes the defacto way to level because it is quicker, easier and more rewarding in terms of gear and gold. By removing XP from quests, we force the developers to look at alternative ways to level which should lead to more variety.
A by-product should also be that the quality of quests should improve a lot, because developers no longer need to create 10,000 quests to complete the leveling process, so they can just focus on interesting storylines and interesting quest mechanics.
That said id rather play a 'new' FFXI over any of these new games (no, FFXIV doesnt count). There are many more elements of modern MMO's id rather not ever see again. Hell, most of it needs to go back to the drawing board and started fresh. From cash shops to streamlined quest hubs meant to take you to end game in a few days, and everything inbetween.
Let me build a glass cannon that dies in 2 hits but keeps on my toes to dodge and use my skills tactically to play the way I want. Forced architecture built into class-based games is just so dull. This is probably the biggest reason a game like Diablo 3 will never truly live up to it's predecessor. Anytime you end up in a situation where there's a best-in-slot, best-in-class, best whatever, it's lame because everyone's end goal is the same.
Dakilla[666] ~ The Realm ~ Level 1000 enchanter (retired)
Maranthoric ~ La 4ieme Prophetie ~ Level 160 (5x) HE/Feu (de retour)
Leonthoric[DDC] ~ EVE online ~ <Fire The "Laser"> (retired)
Oh wait....
Are you sure MMOs are going in the direction you think they are?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm also kinda tired of open world mobs dying in two hits, MMO's shouldn't be like diablo. Combat should be tactical, regardless if it is super slow tab target or action combat.
Originally posted by Scagweed22
is it the graphics? the repetativenesses? i mean what is the point? you could be so much more productive in real life
Real life brings repetition and pointlessness too. The only thing real life offers is Great graphics. Its kinda expensive too and way to dependent on the cash shop. Totally pay to win as well. No thank you. Ill stick to my games.
automation...hate it.Example put a tick in a box and it auto updates your skills or "pretend" to hire some npc to attain something but you never really see that npc,it ends up just a stat.
instances don't bother me either but don't turn a game into RAID instancing for loot because that will end up being the ONLY reason people play,which is a SHALLOW reason to call your game a mmorpg.
I HATE linear content which is why i DON'T want quests giving xp.
i DON'T want tree systems,they are fake and meaningless.Put 1 point here to get 3 more dmg or 2 pts here to get 5 more healing...NO thanks.A developer should be able to put more creativity into it's design than allot 2 pts every level to attain virtually nothing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Not.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
Maybe you want a game but the type of game should be something other than mmoRPG. Look for something outsite of mmoRPG instead USING mmoRPG for your thing.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Gender-locked classes.
Tanks relying on dull threat-based mechanics that don't have any effect on pvp. A tank should be a linebacker, not a "hit me" sign.
So; safely ignorable, in favor of more profitable pursuits using the same time.
The problem here is how many players are so poorly educated about earning income in an mmo. The guys who are actually good at making fantasy cash won't share how they do it and cut their own throats (by creating a huge influx of new competition).
But anyone who actually sits down and thinks for ten minutes or can easily come up with five ideas that swing more cash than a Daily does. That part is NOT rocket science.
The only bar against is laziness; why think about making coin? I can just press the bar once a day and the treat drops out, Skinner Box conditioning.
Is it the best way? Nope. Is it fun? Nope. But it sure is easy.
Essentially the same issue that quest hub/themepark x.p. has. "It's the easiest so I just have to do it this way (even if I don't like it.)"
Easiest != Required. (Or "forced", right?)
Just need to decide against the path of least resistance. Once in a while.
In LotRO, dailies are usually part of reputation grinds. You can get maybe 1/3rd of the way through the rep grind without repeating, but after that you have to do the dailies to advance. Maxing out reputation was the only way to unlock unique mounts, cosmetic equipment, some new armour sets, fast travel locations etc.
There was even a short amount of time when vast amounts of content were locked behind dailies in LotRO. If I remember rightly, when Moria was first released you couldn't access quest hubs until you had enough reputation, but you couldn't get enough reputation without repeating dailies for a few days. They eventually nerfed the rep requirement so it stopped happening, but for 6 months or so it sucked when you got your character to that point and essentially had to stop playing.
Technically, it means they are a tactile defensive player that has to be good at reading plays and countering individual and group actions. Most of the time that boils down to "Ima tackle that guy.", but semantically it's about strategic maneuvering, effective countering, and quick response/predictions.
...think that means you two agree...
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
But the linebacker reference is still meaningless to me, your explanation is more confusing than the original. A sack is a bag, wtf does 'tactile defense' mean? Reading plays? Do you mean Hamlet or Macbeth?
Please don't try to explain further, I have limited interest in real football (the one with the World Cup and FIFA) and none at all in the strange Rugby derivative you play in the U.S.