So that one thing out of the thousands of things in wow makes wow a hard game? That is what you are saying.
Generally speaking the most recent raid tier tend to be seen as hard content on mythic yes... And seeing how WoW is designed around endgame raiding... Yes... That is it. (and it is a objective truth, altho it might not match your subjective opinion of a hard game)
Go play WoW and raid Mythic Hellfire Citadel. After you wipe your 1000th time, then come back and say it's easy :P The problem isn't a lack of difficult things to do. It's that players just don't want to do the difficult things. They want to play the easy stuff.
So that one thing out of the thousands of things in wow makes wow a hard game? That is what you are saying.
I think the point is when games contain hard content few players actually do it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That is a mighty high horse you are sitting on... Getting bucked will hurt like hell...
Anyway.. It is not that people do not understand the problem. It is that there is not one single right or wrong opinion.
You will find as many ideas on what is good gaming as there are people. Heck going by any commonly accepted metric... Pockemon:GO is the most successful game ever. Even if it is barley a game at best. =P
So in short... i wonder who it is that does not understand the problem.
Your right tawess, It's a mighty horse I created with this headline. It is a shocker statement.
BUT.....There is something that no one gets and I'll make it short and sweet.
.......Developers are controlling it all, people think we are voting, were not !.......
They are giving us easy, short 30 day theme parks, the new thing is Asian grinders. Only because its easy to get them out the door !
It "really amazes me" how people think polls are conducted, developers are reading forums, and going off statistics of what people want !........NO. Developers are going off what they feel like giving us, and statistics say people will play anything. And yes for many it is. But the majority.......NO.
About ten people are controlling the action here on this site. This is apparent with polls by posters here. What the polls say vs. what is written by the same people are two different things.....This got me thinking, so I researched many topics. Sure enough it's always the same 10. A lot is jaded here !
Woe is us, poor, uneducated peasants who don't know any better... Thank you for enlightening us, @delete5230
If only we could all be condescending windbags that think they know what everyone else wants :pleased:
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
That is a mighty high horse you are sitting on... Getting bucked will hurt like hell...
Anyway.. It is not that people do not understand the problem. It is that there is not one single right or wrong opinion.
You will find as many ideas on what is good gaming as there are people. Heck going by any commonly accepted metric... Pockemon:GO is the most successful game ever. Even if it is barley a game at best. =P
So in short... i wonder who it is that does not understand the problem.
Your right tawess, It's a mighty horse I created with this headline. It is a shocker statement.
BUT.....There is something that no one gets and I'll make it short and sweet.
.......Developers are controlling it all, people think we are voting, were not !.......
They are giving us easy, short 30 day theme parks, the new thing is Asian grinders. Only because its easy to get them out the door !
It "really amazes me" how people think polls are conducted, developers are reading forums, and going off statistics of what people want !........NO. Developers are going off what they feel like giving us, and statistics say people will play anything. And yes for many it is. But the majority.......NO.
About ten people are controlling the action here on this site. This is apparent with polls by posters here. What the polls say vs. what is written by the same people are two different things.....This got me thinking, so I researched many topics. Sure enough it's always the same 10. A lot is jaded here !
....start transmission...
[Note: to the other members of the "Evil 10," careful he's on to us.
Be sure to warn the "Development Overlords" as well
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
That is a mighty high horse you are sitting on... Getting bucked will hurt like hell...
Anyway.. It is not that people do not understand the problem. It is that there is not one single right or wrong opinion.
You will find as many ideas on what is good gaming as there are people. Heck going by any commonly accepted metric... Pockemon:GO is the most successful game ever. Even if it is barley a game at best. =P
So in short... i wonder who it is that does not understand the problem.
Your right tawess, It's a mighty horse I created with this headline. It is a shocker statement.
BUT.....There is something that no one gets and I'll make it short and sweet.
.......Developers are controlling it all, people think we are voting, were not !.......
They are giving us easy, short 30 day theme parks, the new thing is Asian grinders. Only because its easy to get them out the door !
It "really amazes me" how people think polls are conducted, developers are reading forums, and going off statistics of what people want !........NO. Developers are going off what they feel like giving us, and statistics say people will play anything. And yes for many it is. But the majority.......NO.
About ten people are controlling the action here on this site. This is apparent with polls by posters here. What the polls say vs. what is written by the same people are two different things.....This got me thinking, so I researched many topics. Sure enough it's always the same 10. A lot is jaded here !
....start transmission...
[Note: to the other members of the "Evil 10," careful he's on to us.
Be sure to warn the "Development Overlords" as well
Initiating the "Ransack and Pillage" protocol.]
....end transmission......
I'm not saying you 10 are really evil, more like guided by Evil.
There are forces at work, put on your Aluminum Foil hats,
I would suggest Reynolds Wrap:)
But seriously, The 10 are on 24/7 Tapping out fires all over this site. In fact one tries to bring up a Trion game any chance he gets.
Now it's not really a bad thing for 24/7. Hay, if this is your thing great !........But people are not happy...... come on....... read every post and all the replies ! It's the same thing over and over. Bad games, cash shops, it just goes on and on same stuff, three weeks into the crap that's being developed and players hate them......yet you 10 say everything is great. I really can't understand why you think that way.
Go play WoW and raid Mythic Hellfire Citadel. After you wipe your 1000th time, then come back and say it's easy :P The problem isn't a lack of difficult things to do. It's that players just don't want to do the difficult things. They want to play the easy stuff.
So that one thing out of the thousands of things in wow makes wow a hard game? That is what you are saying.
There are people who spend almost all their on line time raiding. So the answer is ya.
That is a mighty high horse you are sitting on... Getting bucked will hurt like hell...
Anyway.. It is not that people do not understand the problem. It is that there is not one single right or wrong opinion.
You will find as many ideas on what is good gaming as there are people. Heck going by any commonly accepted metric... Pockemon:GO is the most successful game ever. Even if it is barley a game at best. =P
So in short... i wonder who it is that does not understand the problem.
Your right tawess, It's a mighty horse I created with this headline. It is a shocker statement.
BUT.....There is something that no one gets and I'll make it short and sweet.
.......Developers are controlling it all, people think we are voting, were not !.......
They are giving us easy, short 30 day theme parks, the new thing is Asian grinders. Only because its easy to get them out the door !
It "really amazes me" how people think polls are conducted, developers are reading forums, and going off statistics of what people want !........NO. Developers are going off what they feel like giving us, and statistics say people will play anything. And yes for many it is. But the majority.......NO.
About ten people are controlling the action here on this site. This is apparent with polls by posters here. What the polls say vs. what is written by the same people are two different things.....This got me thinking, so I researched many topics. Sure enough it's always the same 10. A lot is jaded here !
....start transmission...
[Note: to the other members of the "Evil 10," careful he's on to us.
Be sure to warn the "Development Overlords" as well
Initiating the "Ransack and Pillage" protocol.]
....end transmission......
I'm not saying you 10 are really evil, more like guided by Evil.
There are forces at work, put on your Aluminum Foil hats,
I would suggest Reynolds Wrap:)
But seriously, The 10 are on 24/7 Tapping out fires all over this site. In fact one tries to bring up a Trion game any chance he gets.
Now it's not really a bad thing for 24/7. Hay, if this is your thing great !........But people are not happy...... come on....... read every post and all the replies ! It's the same thing over and over. Bad games, cash shops, it just goes on and on same stuff, three weeks into the crap that's being developed and players hate them......yet you 10 say everything is great. I really can't understand why you think that way.
Maybe because they actually are playing mmorpg right now.
Believe it or not, some people are still playing mmorpg right now.
Go play WoW and raid Mythic Hellfire Citadel. After you wipe your 1000th time, then come back and say it's easy :P The problem isn't a lack of difficult things to do. It's that players just don't want to do the difficult things. They want to play the easy stuff.
So that one thing out of the thousands of things in wow makes wow a hard game? That is what you are saying.
I think the point is when games contain hard content few players actually do it.
I tend to agree with this viewpoint. I have seen in the past hard PVE combat games and player always seemed to complain.
If they thought those older designs would make money, they'd be making them now.
The ones that are in the pipe are mostly pretty low budget (by comparison). They're not going to be state of the art. Until fans support them to profitability with their money, that's all you'll see.
For all my disdain for Star Citizen, it put space games back on the map. If you raised $100 million dollars for old school MMORPGs, you'd see folks hopping on that bandwagon pretty quick.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The point being, nobody would believe someone (a normal person) would say that sort of thing even if it were true. It would be incredible to hear someone say that.
How about this. Instead of saying bad design say different design. If you like X design and hate Y design, don't call Y design bad. It is simply something different from your ideal.
Beside, who are you to say it is bad. lol.
Bad design is bad design. Games can have design choices that drive a majority of it's players away. In the business of having healthy player base a feature pushing the consumer away is bad design.
What a random and weird thing to laser in on. SMH.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I understand where the OP is coming from, but in my experience ' difficulty ' in MMO's usually means frustration out of repetition. Combat mechanics vs AI in MMO's rarely offers tactical oppurtunities beyond pulling too many mobs. Having to take a lot of time killing single trash mobs, is just too boring with most combat mechanics that exist in MMO's. Especially with a MMO that uses typical trinity classes, it means any non dps class will suffer in this. Unless you want to force grouping for basic questing, good luck with that.
What does this mean? What does "we need harder PvE" mean?
If I was interpreting "harder PvE" I would look at Dark Souls as the poster child. But that's a niche game with a cult following. Then entire series (Dark Souls 1 through 3) has sold ~10 million copies. That's 10 million spread out between Dark Souls 1, DkS Prepare to Die Edition, DkS2, DkS2 Scholar of the First Sin, and Dark Souls 3. That's 5 titles pushing just 10 million sales.
On the easy mode side, Skyrim, has sold 20 million copies by itself. The Witcher 3, also easy mode, sold ~7 million copies. This is what people actually play, they don't want "hard PvE".
~10% Finished Dark Souls ~30% Finished Dark Souls 2 ~60% Finished Dark Souls 3 (likely much less as it counts each ending as a unique completion and many of us played through multiple times and saw the different endings)
So what you have is roughly 2 million fans loyal to the series with probably around 600k - 1 million players even finishing each title.
This is a tiny tiny community, it would be ridiculous for someone to build an MMO with PvE on the level of Dark Souls (but, if that someone is reading, I'd be in line right away and love you forever if you did). That's a really small market, and when you factor in general retention rates, you'd be looking at a 100k playerbase, possibly less.
What does this mean? What does "we need harder PvE" mean?
If I was interpreting "harder PvE" I would look at Dark Souls as the poster child. But that's a niche game with a cult following. Then entire series (Dark Souls 1 through 3) has sold ~10 million copies. That's 10 million spread out between Dark Souls 1, DkS Prepare to Die Edition, DkS2, DkS2 Scholar of the First Sin, and Dark Souls 3. That's 5 titles pushing just 10 million sales.
On the easy mode side, Skyrim, has sold 20 million copies by itself. The Witcher 3, also easy mode, sold ~7 million copies. This is what people actually play, they don't want "hard PvE".
~10% Finished Dark Souls ~30% Finished Dark Souls 2 ~60% Finished Dark Souls 3 (likely much less as it counts each ending as a unique completion and many of us played through multiple times and saw the different endings)
So what you have is roughly 2 million fans loyal to the series with probably around 600k - 1 million players even finishing each title.
This is a tiny tiny community, it would be ridiculous for someone to build an MMO with PvE on the level of Dark Souls (but, if that someone is reading, I'd be in line right away and love you forever if you did). That's a really small market, and when you factor in general retention rates, you'd be looking at a 100k playerbase, possibly less.
So. What is "harder PvE" and who is "we"?
Speaking of Darksouls, I have a few things I would like to add.
Sure Darksouls games could be brutal...BUT...The concept is intriguing, you have to think and exploit weaknesses. The word " think " is important, this is much more important than " brutally hard " !
Developers of mmos would be OUT OF THEIR MINDS if they made a brutally hard mmo.
Think before rushing in is key......We only have hack-and-slash, even the classics changed to this.
Important;
In newer developed mmos, have you ever took in consideration Abilities ?....I'm talking about really studying them ?....Most classes don't have a NEED for crowed control !....In other words a slightly weaker character, however if you stun or root a bandit this buys you time. THIS IS TATICAL ! Most would consider this fun.......What good is a healer class in an open world environment ?....We have hack-and-slash only.
See " Lord of the Rings online ".....The abilities are worthless, You can easily defeat everything by pressing "1" if it doesn't die, press "1".
It doesn't have to be brutal to be fun.......Just a bit harder for God sake !
You can't just create something saying people don't understand and then state an opinion without any sort of fact to back anything up.
I mean, you can, because you just did, but that doesn't make you right. I agree, there are people who have a severe lack of understanding about the industry and how much knowledge they have. I will agree that there are people who have a great misunderstanding of what people want..........
If you had any sort of insight into what sort of data is collected and what information is used in the decision-making process you'd probably be much more enlightened. To believe that developers are out there free-balling with a $30 million budget is hilarious.
It seems to come down to when people started playing MMOs....People that started before WoW find todays games too easy, and people that started with WoW or later play them more for entertainment than for challenge.
You can't just create something saying people don't understand and then state an opinion without any sort of fact to back anything up.
I mean, you can, because you just did, but that doesn't make you right. I agree, there are people who have a severe lack of understanding about the industry and how much knowledge they have. I will agree that there are people who have a great misunderstanding of what people want..........
If you had any sort of insight into what sort of data is collected and what information is used in the decision-making process you'd probably be much more enlightened. To believe that developers are out there free-balling with a $30 million budget is hilarious.
Great.....This is a good time to jump in
People are under the impression developers are using statistics of what players want. NO !
They use statistics saying " players will play anything ". So lets just advertise !
"We r hardc0re yo, facegrinding masochism--n00bs need not create accounts."
"We include everyone, so everything as ezmode as possible."
Obviously, both design approaches have their drawbacks, yes?
The thing is all those so called easy games actually have really hard content. They are just made more optional.
Take for example, one of the boss in gw2, I have only seen one person kill it by himself. You can't tell me some thing that is only achieved by one person on the entire server is not hard.
But the general world in gw2 is so easy, anyone can do it. And if you make it hard people will complain. Which actually happened in the expansion. Gw2 make the world a bit harder and many carebear starts complaining.
"We r hardc0re yo, facegrinding masochism--n00bs need not create accounts."
"We include everyone, so everything as ezmode as possible."
Obviously, both design approaches have their drawbacks, yes?
The thing is all those so called easy games actually have really hard content. They are just made more optional.
Take for example, one of the boss in gw2, I have only seen one person kill it by himself. You can't tell me some thing that is only achieved by one person on the entire server is not hard.
But the general world in gw2 is so easy, anyone can do it. And if you make it hard people will complain. Which actually happened in the expansion. Gw2 make the world a bit harder and many carebear starts complaining.
Doesn't matter if a game has hard content or not if the rest of the game isn't fun. I played GW2 for like a week before I quit and that's being overly generous.
The current top dog MMO's just try to cater to everyone and that just doesn't work. I think we just need as many games as we have but the devs need to stop making every game for everyone. Target a niche and create a game for it.
The problem is that they won't pull in AAA money from targeting a niche so now they basically have to destroy the genre to get as much masses money out of it while turning people off from the genre. Which is why it seems Indie developers are our last hope as they are the only ones willing to target specific audiences and since they're indie, they're happy to get whatever money they can.
To your main post on this. Here is the deal, and you may likely agree in places.
Way back when there was Project 1999 (or Everquest), and a few other old school MMOs. Then WoW came along and made everything easier, introduced some dumbing-down, etc. (Don't get me wrong, WoW is a great game in certain aspects, however...)
MMO's have basically evolved, since the two above titles, into dumbed-down uninspired insta-gratification empty shells.
Quests are mostly simple, not very long at all, and reflect your example in the main post. Kill 10 rats, collect an enemy's head, etc etc.
Quests have also turned into GRINDS, and the Korean MMOs have definitely contributed to this. Lineage, ArcheAge and even Black Desert. All beatiful games on the outside, but now-a-days, designed for the dumbed-down insta-gratification gamers out there. Designed for those 'Whales', who want it all now, and have the financial means to make it happen. Games littered with direct and indirect P2W items.
The South Park FREEMIUM video says it best (although it was aimed at the mobile market, it still basically applies). See Season 18 Episode 6 Small excerpt here:
--------- While Everquest is a VERY aged game (16+ years old), it still has some elements that are just missing in today's games it seems. Some of these elements are really good. Like chain quests. Take for example the Blessed Shall Quest. A long chain quest that has you doing many interesting things, traveling to different places, taking down certain boss mobs, doing some crafting, hunting for certain drops, solo, group and raid content also included. AND, all along the way, your shall is upgraded in stats, etc. PLUS, through all the things you need to do, you get other interesting drops and items along the way, meet friends, you have strategy, etc etc.
WHERE IS THAT IN GAMES TODAY? Not many places I can find. Unless it's a GRIND, but even still.
Now, this doesn't mean Everquest was perfect. It DID have it's share of problems and issues.
However, MMO games now-a-days especially have veered so far away from the 'adventure' / 'journey' aspect and focus much more on uninspired PvE content, mostly a grind-a-thon.
--------
Look, we all have so many hours in a day to play the game, and we want to feel like we accomplished something. However, game-makers need to get back to some of the grassroots that made MMOs great in the first place.
Comments
Generally speaking the most recent raid tier tend to be seen as hard content on mythic yes... And seeing how WoW is designed around endgame raiding... Yes... That is it. (and it is a objective truth, altho it might not match your subjective opinion of a hard game)
Or did i misunderstand you?
This have been a good conversation
we need harder pve.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Your right tawess, It's a mighty horse I created with this headline. It is a shocker statement.
BUT.....There is something that no one gets and I'll make it short and sweet.
.......Developers are controlling it all, people think we are voting, were not !.......
They are giving us easy, short 30 day theme parks, the new thing is Asian grinders. Only because its easy to get them out the door !
It "really amazes me" how people think polls are conducted, developers are reading forums, and going off statistics of what people want !........NO. Developers are going off what they feel like giving us, and statistics say people will play anything. And yes for many it is. But the majority.......NO.
About ten people are controlling the action here on this site. This is apparent with polls by posters here. What the polls say vs. what is written by the same people are two different things.....This got me thinking, so I researched many topics. Sure enough it's always the same 10. A lot is jaded here !
Thank you for enlightening us, @delete5230
If only we could all be condescending windbags that think they know what everyone else wants :pleased:
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
[Note: to the other members of the "Evil 10," careful he's on to us.
Be sure to warn the "Development Overlords" as well
Initiating the "Ransack and Pillage" protocol.]
....end transmission......
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm not saying you 10 are really evil, more like guided by Evil.
There are forces at work, put on your Aluminum Foil hats,
I would suggest Reynolds Wrap:)
But seriously, The 10 are on 24/7 Tapping out fires all over this site. In fact one tries to bring up a Trion game any chance he gets.
Now it's not really a bad thing for 24/7. Hay, if this is your thing great !........But people are not happy...... come on....... read every post and all the replies ! It's the same thing over and over. Bad games, cash shops, it just goes on and on same stuff, three weeks into the crap that's being developed and players hate them......yet you 10 say everything is great. I really can't understand why you think that way.
Believe it or not, some people are still playing mmorpg right now.
If they thought those older designs would make money, they'd be making them now.
The ones that are in the pipe are mostly pretty low budget (by comparison). They're not going to be state of the art. Until fans support them to profitability with their money, that's all you'll see.
For all my disdain for Star Citizen, it put space games back on the map. If you raised $100 million dollars for old school MMORPGs, you'd see folks hopping on that bandwagon pretty quick.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
What a random and weird thing to laser in on. SMH.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So which vision of design is bad?
"We r hardc0re yo, facegrinding masochism--n00bs need not create accounts."
"We include everyone, so everything as ezmode as possible."
Obviously, both design approaches have their drawbacks, yes?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Quote from Peter Griffin from Family Guy:
" I don't understand any of this "
What does this mean? What does "we need harder PvE" mean?
If I was interpreting "harder PvE" I would look at Dark Souls as the poster child. But that's a niche game with a cult following. Then entire series (Dark Souls 1 through 3) has sold ~10 million copies. That's 10 million spread out between Dark Souls 1, DkS Prepare to Die Edition, DkS2, DkS2 Scholar of the First Sin, and Dark Souls 3. That's 5 titles pushing just 10 million sales.
On the easy mode side, Skyrim, has sold 20 million copies by itself. The Witcher 3, also easy mode, sold ~7 million copies. This is what people actually play, they don't want "hard PvE".
And to take it a step further, out of the 10 million sold the completion rates are pretty low (http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/11030/utm_campaign)
~10% Finished Dark Souls
~30% Finished Dark Souls 2
~60% Finished Dark Souls 3 (likely much less as it counts each ending as a unique completion and many of us played through multiple times and saw the different endings)
So what you have is roughly 2 million fans loyal to the series with probably around 600k - 1 million players even finishing each title.
This is a tiny tiny community, it would be ridiculous for someone to build an MMO with PvE on the level of Dark Souls (but, if that someone is reading, I'd be in line right away and love you forever if you did). That's a really small market, and when you factor in general retention rates, you'd be looking at a 100k playerbase, possibly less.
So. What is "harder PvE" and who is "we"?
Speaking of Darksouls, I have a few things I would like to add.
Sure Darksouls games could be brutal...BUT...The concept is intriguing, you have to think and exploit weaknesses. The word " think " is important, this is much more important than " brutally hard " !
Developers of mmos would be OUT OF THEIR MINDS if they made a brutally hard mmo.
Think before rushing in is key......We only have hack-and-slash, even the classics changed to this.
Important;
In newer developed mmos, have you ever took in consideration Abilities ?....I'm talking about really studying them ?....Most classes don't have a NEED for crowed control !....In other words a slightly weaker character, however if you stun or root a bandit this buys you time. THIS IS TATICAL ! Most would consider this fun.......What good is a healer class in an open world environment ?....We have hack-and-slash only.
See " Lord of the Rings online ".....The abilities are worthless, You can easily defeat everything by pressing "1" if it doesn't die, press "1".
It doesn't have to be brutal to be fun.......Just a bit harder for God sake !
I mean, you can, because you just did, but that doesn't make you right. I agree, there are people who have a severe lack of understanding about the industry and how much knowledge they have. I will agree that there are people who have a great misunderstanding of what people want..........
If you had any sort of insight into what sort of data is collected and what information is used in the decision-making process you'd probably be much more enlightened. To believe that developers are out there free-balling with a $30 million budget is hilarious.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Great.....This is a good time to jump in
People are under the impression developers are using statistics of what players want. NO !
They use statistics saying " players will play anything ". So lets just advertise !
Take for example, one of the boss in gw2, I have only seen one person kill it by himself. You can't tell me some thing that is only achieved by one person on the entire server is not hard.
But the general world in gw2 is so easy, anyone can do it. And if you make it hard people will complain. Which actually happened in the expansion. Gw2 make the world a bit harder and many carebear starts complaining.
The current top dog MMO's just try to cater to everyone and that just doesn't work. I think we just need as many games as we have but the devs need to stop making every game for everyone. Target a niche and create a game for it.
The problem is that they won't pull in AAA money from targeting a niche so now they basically have to destroy the genre to get as much masses money out of it while turning people off from the genre. Which is why it seems Indie developers are our last hope as they are the only ones willing to target specific audiences and since they're indie, they're happy to get whatever money they can.
To your main post on this. Here is the deal, and you may likely agree in places.
Way back when there was Project 1999 (or Everquest), and a few other old school MMOs.
Then WoW came along and made everything easier, introduced some dumbing-down, etc.
(Don't get me wrong, WoW is a great game in certain aspects, however...)
MMO's have basically evolved, since the two above titles, into dumbed-down uninspired insta-gratification empty shells.
Quests are mostly simple, not very long at all, and reflect your example in the main post.
Kill 10 rats, collect an enemy's head, etc etc.
Quests have also turned into GRINDS, and the Korean MMOs have definitely contributed to this. Lineage, ArcheAge and even Black Desert.
All beatiful games on the outside, but now-a-days, designed for the dumbed-down insta-gratification gamers out there. Designed for those 'Whales', who want it all now, and have the financial means to make it happen.
Games littered with direct and indirect P2W items.
The South Park FREEMIUM video says it best (although it was aimed at the mobile market, it still basically applies). See Season 18 Episode 6 Small excerpt here:
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While Everquest is a VERY aged game (16+ years old), it still has some elements that are just missing in today's games it seems. Some of these elements are really good. Like chain quests. Take for example the Blessed Shall Quest. A long chain quest that has you doing many interesting things, traveling to different places, taking down certain boss mobs, doing some crafting, hunting for certain drops, solo, group and raid content also included. AND, all along the way, your shall is upgraded in stats, etc. PLUS, through all the things you need to do, you get other interesting drops and items along the way, meet friends, you have strategy, etc etc.
WHERE IS THAT IN GAMES TODAY? Not many places I can find. Unless it's a GRIND, but even still.
Now, this doesn't mean Everquest was perfect. It DID have it's share of problems and issues.
However, MMO games now-a-days especially have veered so far away from the 'adventure' / 'journey' aspect and focus much more on uninspired PvE content, mostly a grind-a-thon.
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Look, we all have so many hours in a day to play the game, and we want to feel like we accomplished something. However, game-makers need to get back to some of the grassroots that made MMOs great in the first place.