P2W = P2P nothing more, it has nothing to do with unfair advantage and everything to do with paying to play.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
P2W = P2P nothing more, it has nothing to do with unfair advantage and everything to do with paying to play.
What?
Not sure exactly what you're trying to say, but games become meaningless as soon as they become p2w. Buying an overwhelming advantage to circumvent the rules of a game invalidates any win you may achieve, in any game.
Games are meant to be played. This whole notion of buying "time" in a game is garbage. Not only does it never EVER turn out to be true (i.e. payers always end up way more effective than players), you shouldn't play a game if you don't have the time required to play it the way you want to.
Your opinions are grounded on a distorted reality.
When it comes to games, and the outcome of games, money should never be a factor. Again, the objective of a game is to compete. And competition is driven by a player's own skills, qualities, and abilities matched against an opponent's skills, qualities and abilities, and may the player with the better skills, qualities, and abilities win. These are inherent personal qualities that players pit against one another to beat or "win" at a game against an opponent.
Your analogy is equivalent to a non athletic basketball player paying an athletic basketball player money to "win" a game against another basektball player because that non-athletic basketball player did not have the time to practice and become a better basketball player to beat their opponent. In that case, as in a non-athletic game such as an MMO, it was the money paid that won the game, not the skills and abilities of the player. How is that not acceptable but perfectly acceptable in an MMO?
Lack of available time should never be an excuse for not being able to compete. If you want to compete, then you should be expected to put in the time to become the best. Becoming the best takes practice, and practice takes time. Finding an excuse, such as lack of time, to circumvent one the most fundamental elements of achievement, which is work ethic, is the very definition of entitlement.
One should not be be able to buy everything, and that is particularly true when it comes to competition and gaming.
There is nothing in PC gaming that requires athletic body, all it requires is an active brain and active hands, so your analogy about athletic field is moot.
Then how about using them, instead of using your wallet!
You make my point without even realizing it.
Some people think that punching in a credit card number takes the use of your brain and hands...
It takes skill to convince yourself that you can buy your way to being better at a game.
It's an excuse, a crutch, and nothing more. They need to validate their excuse for using money to compete. It makes them feel better when they think they won based on their own skills, qualities, and abilities when nothing could be further from the truth.
You can rationalize this however you see fit, but it isn't going to change the reality on the ground. And that reality is that the vast majority of western gamers find P2W repulsive, and that is why BDO is in the midst of a massive, runaway meltdown. It's all well and good to tell people what they *should* think about something, and another thing entirely to actually change those minds; to step in front of the avalanche, raise your palm, and stop the slide's advance. It ain't happening.
Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time
They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -
And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"
It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.
Money and time are both valuable.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
Of course there's a problem to be seen there.
While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case. And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games. The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others. That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that?
Money should not factor into this equation. The only qualities that should factor into a gaming equation are the inherent skills and abilities that you possess and perform to accomplish your goals of winning, not those inherent skills and abilities possessed by others that you "bought" by acquiring items that they accomplished. That is the very definition of "paying" to win.
You are in essence "hiring" someone to help "win" the game for you.
I thought the point of playing a game was to have fun. Winning in whatever sense you prefer may be fun, but don't expect others to agree with what constitutes your idea of winning.
I don't think people understand the difference between spending hours in a game grinding for the gear they earn versus just forking over some money and buying it. Sure, not everyone has time to play games, but allowing people to buy the best gear in the game with their wallet is just a really shitty thing to do to players that can't afford to do that. As for people saying there is no WIN aspect to MMO's, then let's just call it P2B#1 and in PvP, being #1 is kind of the point of the game.
And making it so that you have to spend ridiculous amounts of time grinding doesn't work so well for people who don't have that kind of free time.
I liked Guild Wars 1 itemization: get perfect gear pretty fast, and then go do whatever you want.
I am out geared in every PvP game - and that's fine.
The real issue in BDO is you gain the highest upper hand via gear. If a +20 player had a marginal advantage over a +16 player - nobody would care about "p2w" right? Because a lower geared player would still be able to easily beat a +20
So you see the root of the problem is the extreme gear disparity.
If a +10 could beat a +15 or +16 a +20, this entire p2w fiasco wouldnt even exist as nobody would care.
Its precisely because a +10 equipped player can't beat someone with even +16 equipment that the whole P2W thing is a huge problem. Why should people with more real money than others be allowed to dominate in a game? it doesn't matter whether its in PVE or in PVP, but the fact that BDO has such a large PVP factor in it, from node conquest to guild v guild wars makes it doubly worse.
If that's a problem, it's a problem of bad play balance or bad itemization, not one of "pay to win". If you don't like that the player with better gear always wins, then it's not a problem of why he has better gear.
Everybody has the same amount of time in a day because the numbers of hours is a known finite number that can be put into certain task. You can put less, it's up to you, not more.
The same can't be said about money.
If you get 2 person of irrelevant race, gender, in same overall health quality and place them in a room with the same clothes and same computer they can spend the same amount of hours per day playing a game which is 24. If you take the controlled space out the amount of hours persist. It is the amount of hours in a day.
As I said, if your share of the hours is spent on something else that's up to you.
You are stating that the responsibility for you spending your time on something else is not yours. Man, it's your life, get your shit together.
Can we talk about reality here for a second - as in how real people actually play?
A family man with 2 kids and a wife who is the sole breadwinner and works full time - won't have the same amount of time as a teenager who lives with his parents and is on summer break.
The responsibility of a working man is to take care of his family - are you saying he should abandon them so he can spend more time gaming?
That's what you call "getting your shit" together?
What people are looking for is an even playing field in game mechanics that more prosperous members of society cannot benefit (overwhelmingly) from. We already face gross inequalities in our real lives - the rich lord over us like kings, flying hither and thither in private jets; spending months exploring rugged coastlines from mega yachts; enjoying the fruits of a nearly inexhaustible tree of wealth and the exclusivity of knowing the most powerful people in the world, any one of which could "help a brother" down on his luck out with a fat loan in the blink of an eye.
Why should people welcome those SAME disparities in a video game? In their escapist window from the harshness of the unforgiving world? Your average player is already getting stomped by the knuckle-dragging 18-hours-a-day trog army, now you want them to get smashed by the rich boys, too? At least the former are working for their advantage - moneybags doesn't have to do jack, he just ponies up the gold card for some phat loot.
You're never going to do anything about the basement gremlin who has chosen to become a kind of digital-age monk and pledge a life of servitude to their computer monitor, but, by God, we shouldn't how to put up with rich, spoiled twats flaunting real-world wealth in a friggin' video game.
There certainly are a lot of people looking for an even playing field. That's what esports are based around. But sometime around the time you reached level 2 and were suddenly stronger than you were at level 1, you should have figured out that the game doesn't feature an even playing field.
When a game turns into "now you must do something painful to advance", it's time to quit the game and find another. Whether the "something painful" consists of paying a bunch of money, grinding a bunch of hours, or whatever doesn't matter. It's time to quit the game and find another regardless.
@DMKano how is that a fallacy? Which fallacy did I commit?
You equated 24 hours in a day as being validation for every player having equivalent time to devote to playing online games.
You are using a fact (24 huours in a day) for a false conclusion = equal free time to game for all players.
Obviously every player has a different amount of time to devote to online games depending on their work, family and other RL responsibilities
And because they do its totally okay for those with more money than others to use that advantage in any way they want. Tbh its that kind of thinking that imo represents the very worst factors of some online games.
Like I said inequality of time is a factor in online games that is deemed acceptable
Inequality of money is deemed unacceptable.
What about intelligence or skill?
Lots of inequalities exist and yet the only one that offends is money.
A player who has 16 hours a day to play has a huge advantage, over a player who has 2 hours a day.
Giving players with little time but enough money an option to fast track through games is a great idea.
The real problem in BDO is a huge power gap that +20 gear provides *this is the real problem*
If there was no huge power gap in gear - being able to fast track via spending real money wouldn't even be an issue.
Because it would be like - oh you spent all that money to get all your boss gear to +20... cute, I can still beat you easily with my +16, so who cares.
The issue of "p2w" in case of BDO is entirely dependent on the fact that gear enhancments is the largest factor determining power, without this crazy unbalanced mechanic - spending money on gear would largely be meaningless.
Where is your logic? You go on and on for multiple posts saying that money isn't the only factor in online gaming (and in life), defending the buying of power in cash shops (Man, are you totally sold out on AA or what?) on the basis of Time V Skill V Money. but then as your example you go on to explain how money really is the only unfair advantage in BDO.
Good god, remember the days of $14.99 sub and nothing else. Yes that was the good old days, now people are analyzing shit till the cows come home. MMOs nowadays are shit , with shit monetizing systems. Not hard to see that.
Gamers brought this upon themselves. I vividly remember the heated P2P vs F2P debates before F2P really took hold. The majority vehemently argued for F2P, actually believing they where playing the game for free, ignorant of the mess this business model would eventually have on the MMO genre. This was before cash shops had been fine tuned to become the massive cash grabs they are today. Some of the more naive players still argue for F2P not realizing that when it is all said and done, their expenditures will far exceed $15 per month. Nowadays, even P2P and B2P games have cash grab cash shops incorporated into their business models.
We only have ourselves to blame for this mess.
Yup. Not only does it end up costing us more, but it kills the games, too.
P2W is based on paying to avoid playing the game. How can a game be sustainable with its income dependent on non-players?
In some games, you could argue that "I just want to pay to get to the good part". Problem here is BDO has limitless progression, no dungeons and the endgame is based on PVP. That means the endgame, if this change goes through, is doomed to be not much more than a wallet measuring contest.
P2W is a complete misnomer - it's pay to advance faster.
Sometimes you say the silliest things :awesome:
You know better than that. Or at least you should.
P2W is simple - cash shops sells the most powerful gear that is FAR better than everything else in game and cannot be obtained in any other way but spending real money
That is p2w.
What everyone is talking a it is pay to avoid playing for 800 hours to get to the same point as somebody who spend 800 hours to get all the currency to buy the same gear.
It's pay to advance faster.
It's pay to fast-track but the items you get are they same as any top player in game in BIS gear.
So you end up on equal footing as other top players, the only difference is the time and money spent on getting there but once there - everyone is on same footing.
Those with a crapton of time can get there.
Those with a crapton of money can get there faster.
The final point - is an equilibrium so how is that p2w? It's pay to advance faster.
I think what a lot of us our feeling is due to the fact a cash type player didn't suffer enough to get there. I agree it isn't technically P2W but maybe it should be? If you spend countless hours grinding and suffering there has to be some validity to to it I mean if there isn't then why the hell did we waste so much time? Wait that last sentence was deep, but oddly enlightening
Thank God for edit. I hate rereading a post I made and realizing how stupid it sounded.
People blow this way out of proportion. First of all, the items actually have to be for sale, which is rare as fuck. Just look at the market place and check how many +15 livertos, or even worse, Kzarkas have ever been sold. I'm pretty sure the latter is STILL a single digit number even after the game's been live for MONTHS, while the former is in the low double digits.
To really be able to afford any of these items, a player would have to shell out an outrageous sum of RL money, even if the costumes sell for 70 million silver in game as someone (Kano?) said they do on Korea. Even stuff like the basic Ogre's ring is currently going for 95 million on my server. While a PRI (the next upgrade) is like 250 million. And only 6 of them have EVER been sold. Good luck on getting those with your cash shop earned silver. =P
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Imagine 2 players meet in RL - one who has all the time and very little money and one who has all the money and very little time
They are both at end game - so the first player says "I wish I had all that money, I could have gotten all this gear just by paying!" -
And the other would say "I just wish I had all that time to play games"
It is the first of those two people who is infuriated by this announcement.
Money and time are both valuable.
For some reason players with a lot of time and no money who play 16-20 hours a day - this is deemed ok and a normal advantage.
Players who have lots of money but very limited time - if they spend money to get to end game fast - this is deemed an unfair advantage.
Why?
Obviously not everyone has the same amount of time, and not everyone has the same amount of money - but only money provides an unfair advantage?
Does anyone see a problem here?
Of course there's a problem to be seen there.
While time can indeed be construed as money, this is not always the case. And it certainly doesn't apply to playing games. The objective of a game is to play and to win based on your own skill and ability, not on winning by "buying" items attained with the skill and ability exerted by others. That would be the equivalent of hiring someone to play the game for you. What is the point in that?
Money should not factor into this equation. The only qualities that should factor into a gaming equation are the inherent skills and abilities that you possess and perform to accomplish your goals of winning, not those inherent skills and abilities possessed by others that you "bought" by acquiring items that they accomplished. That is the very definition of "paying" to win.
You are in essence "hiring" someone to help "win" the game for you.
I thought the point of playing a game was to have fun. Winning in whatever sense you prefer may be fun, but don't expect others to agree with what constitutes your idea of winning.
While the definition of fun may be subjective, the definition for winning is not. For those of us who haven't been brainwashed and/or indoctrinated into the PC entitled belief that everyone is a winner and deserves a "feel good trophy," the definition of winning is pretty clear. And it certainly isn't buying the trophy.
I don't think people understand the difference between spending hours in a game grinding for the gear they earn versus just forking over some money and buying it. Sure, not everyone has time to play games, but allowing people to buy the best gear in the game with their wallet is just a really shitty thing to do to players that can't afford to do that. As for people saying there is no WIN aspect to MMO's, then let's just call it P2B#1 and in PvP, being #1 is kind of the point of the game.
And making it so that you have to spend ridiculous amounts of time grinding doesn't work so well for people who don't have that kind of free time.
I liked Guild Wars 1 itemization: get perfect gear pretty fast, and then go do whatever you want.
I agree which is why I don't consider GW2 to be P2W either as acquiring decent gear is rather easy, thus making PvP a level playing field for the most part. However, games such as ArcheAge and Black Desert Online where the quality disparity of items is so great that a highly geared player can pretty much solo large groups of undergeard players is just plain stupid game management.
Not every MMO has a P2W atmosphere. It requires certain elements to qualify. Such as...
PvP
Gear disparity
Cash shop
Marketplace to sell cash shop items for in game currency
Both AA and BDO definitely have all those elements and that is why they are P2W.
This is honestly true to. Two to three weeks ago in AA, I saw 2 6k+ GS players from the east take on 10 people of equal level (not GS, maybe 3k-4k GS?) in one of the west main cities. When stuff like that happens in open world, devs need to seriously rethink their game if they care about the player base and longevity. Sure the people that have that kind of money to spend to acquire that level of power will stay but honestly not for level if everyone else is leaving because of it.
Except after he admitted to blood doping, he was stripped of all 7 medals and banned from the sport. In ArcheAge and Black Desert Online, they praise people for buying your way to the #1 spot of the competitive atmosphere.
Oh ma gad I am so surprised that they have decided to milk the players. An asian mmo that tries to milk the playerbase? Oh my gad, how could they ? I am so shocked.
P2W = P2P nothing more, it has nothing to do with unfair advantage and everything to do with paying to play.
What?
Not sure exactly what you're trying to say, but games become meaningless as soon as they become p2w. Buying an overwhelming advantage to circumvent the rules of a game invalidates any win you may achieve, in any game.
Games are meant to be played. This whole notion of buying "time" in a game is garbage. Not only does it never EVER turn out to be true (i.e. payers always end up way more effective than players), you shouldn't play a game if you don't have the time required to play it the way you want to.
That goes for any game, not just MMOs.
No. You shouldn't play a game if you don't have the money to afford it. Again, that goes for any game.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Comments
In context of BDO:
You are so much more effective when you are spamming your silly "LOLs."
P2W = P2P nothing more, it has nothing to do with unfair advantage and everything to do with paying to play.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Not sure exactly what you're trying to say, but games become meaningless as soon as they become p2w. Buying an overwhelming advantage to circumvent the rules of a game invalidates any win you may achieve, in any game.
Games are meant to be played. This whole notion of buying "time" in a game is garbage. Not only does it never EVER turn out to be true (i.e. payers always end up way more effective than players), you shouldn't play a game if you don't have the time required to play it the way you want to.
That goes for any game, not just MMOs.
I liked Guild Wars 1 itemization: get perfect gear pretty fast, and then go do whatever you want.
First of all, the items actually have to be for sale, which is rare as fuck. Just look at the market place and check how many +15 livertos, or even worse, Kzarkas have ever been sold. I'm pretty sure the latter is STILL a single digit number even after the game's been live for MONTHS, while the former is in the low double digits.
To really be able to afford any of these items, a player would have to shell out an outrageous sum of RL money, even if the costumes sell for 70 million silver in game as someone (Kano?) said they do on Korea. Even stuff like the basic Ogre's ring is currently going for 95 million on my server. While a PRI (the next upgrade) is like 250 million. And only 6 of them have EVER been sold. Good luck on getting those with your cash shop earned silver. =P
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
While the definition of fun may be subjective, the definition for winning is not. For those of us who haven't been brainwashed and/or indoctrinated into the PC entitled belief that everyone is a winner and deserves a "feel good trophy," the definition of winning is pretty clear. And it certainly isn't buying the trophy.
He'd love the current state of BDO.
There's nothing like fair-handed play.
The greed behind this is phenomenal.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Really people? Really?
GW2 doesn't count since the gear tiers do not have massive vertical stat scaling.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.