Perhaps the reason why we don't know what a majority of the players think about this change is that a majority of the players don't think about this change. Forums, internet polls, and so forth mostly attract people who think about games far more than most.
Please enlighten us as to how it is that you know what the majority of players are thinking or not thinking?
Listing things that people have said does nothing to challenge the idea that they're anything but a vocal minority. Including multiple polls and a change.org petition are also meaningless, as they can be voted in / signed multiple times by the same people with very little effort.
I can see why some people don't like this, but IMO they're really making it sound a lot worse than it is.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Cash talks, surveys don't. If the publishers think this move will make more money (and likely their previous experience has given them a reasonable expectation) then this is the way they will go.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What do you think the total player base for BDO is?
If you are ever planning on presenting to Pearl Abyss how strongly and passionately EU & NA are against this idea
Unless the total player base of EU and NA comes to 4000/5000 players, the majority don't actually care about the changes.
What? What evidence do you have to know what the majority thinks?
The only evidence we have is what is shown in the OP, representing that a LOT of current customers do not like the proposed change.
Nobody knows what the actual majority thinks, but indications are most do not approve of the change. Anti-p2w remarks have far outnumbered pro-p2w remarks.
Yeah, it's the internet, it's just forums yada yada yada but it's all we have to go on. Although many of the top guilds turning their guild icon into the one shown in my avatar is indicative that it's just not "forum hsyteria".
In any case, I just don't see how you look at all that in the OP and say, "Well, the majority doesn't care."
So basically I'm just assuming because I know that you're pro-p2w that you're just pulling that notion straight out of your butt.
***
Anywho, Kakao asked for feedback during the announcement and feedback they got. Tomorrow will tell if/how they act upon that feedback.
Tbh, only the devs know. I still remember all the campaigns and outrage over Mass Effect 3's ending, and Jessica Merizan claiming that the majority of ME3 players were fine with it, even though thousands were angry about it. After all the polls showed it. People were making countless Youtube videos about it... website articles. You name it. The whole shebang.
I figured she must be lying. PR bullshit and everything, since she never gave any numbers... until you come to hear that out of all the people that bought the game, only a good 30% actually GOT to that ending. That's 70% right there that doesn't give a fuck about it. And if half of that 30% that actually did finish it, liked it or didn't care, that's another 15% right there, making it a grand total of 85% at least that didn't care or actually approved of the ending.
If you think the vast majority of BDO's playerbase actually cares enough to go take part on some internet poll, or to post on the forums... well... this is the internet, I'm not going to change your mind, we both know that much. Keep on thinking it, but brace for disappointment. Not to mention in this case, I'm fairly sure this update is being pushed by PA, who won't even bother to look at all the internet rage. The only thing they'll get are reports from Daum.
The only reason I didn't beat Mass Effect 3 after beating both 1 and 2 was because I found out about the ending.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Perhaps the reason why we don't know what a majority of the players think about this change is that a majority of the players don't think about this change. Forums, internet polls, and so forth mostly attract people who think about games far more than most.
Please enlighten us as to how it is that you know what the majority of players are thinking or not thinking?
It has been said by developers that only a fraction of the customers/player base frequent forums/social media.
Even on this site you can expect a bucket full of usual suspects but the actual traffic is far greater. I've received messages on this forum from people who pretty much stated that they like going to the website but never post.
So if a fraction of the player base is posting on forums and there is some other part of that group who dislikes something then that's a fraction of a fraction.
At least those that express their displeasure. I believe for most people that when they are "done" with a game they don't go to forums and make copious posts about their gaming history to legitimize their standing and then go on about why they are quitting.
I believe they just walk away.
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Perhaps the reason why we don't know what a majority of the players think about this change is that a majority of the players don't think about this change. Forums, internet polls, and so forth mostly attract people who think about games far more than most.
Please enlighten us as to how it is that you know what the majority of players are thinking or not thinking?
Because the Change.org petition has a total of 5000 signatures and is a week old. As we know, they sold somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million copies in North America. So I'm pretty sure that there are officially zero fucks to be given. You are talking about 1% of users have signed a petition. Well, a number representing 1% of their user base. It's possible that multiple people signed more than once. Chances are you're not the ones paying them money anyway, so they don't care if you leave.
Perhaps the reason why we don't know what a majority of the players think about this change is that a majority of the players don't think about this change. Forums, internet polls, and so forth mostly attract people who think about games far more than most.
Please enlighten us as to how it is that you know what the majority of players are thinking or not thinking?
Because the Change.org petition has a total of 5000 signatures and is a week old. As we know, they sold somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million copies in North America. So I'm pretty sure that there are officially zero fucks to be given. You are talking about 1% of users have signed a petition. Well, a number representing 1% of their user base. It's possible that multiple people signed more than once. Chances are you're not the ones paying them money anyway, so they don't care if you leave.
That still offers no indication as to what people are thinking or not thinking about the change. I have a very specific thought on the matter but haven't participated in any of those polls. And there is a highly probable chance that there are many who fall into my same category as myself. My point isn't that people are thinking or not thinking about the change, but more so that there is no way of telling what, or how many, people are thinking or not thinking about the change. Disputing that fact is an effort in futility.
Perhaps the reason why we don't know what a majority of the players think about this change is that a majority of the players don't think about this change. Forums, internet polls, and so forth mostly attract people who think about games far more than most.
Please enlighten us as to how it is that you know what the majority of players are thinking or not thinking?
Because the Change.org petition has a total of 5000 signatures and is a week old. As we know, they sold somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million copies in North America. So I'm pretty sure that there are officially zero fucks to be given. You are talking about 1% of users have signed a petition. Well, a number representing 1% of their user base. It's possible that multiple people signed more than once. Chances are you're not the ones paying them money anyway, so they don't care if you leave.
That still offers no indication as to what people are thinking or not thinking about the change. I have a very specific thought on the matter but haven't participated in any of those polls. And there is a highly probable chance that there are many who fall into my same category as myself. My point isn't that people are thinking or not thinking about the change, but more so that there is no way of telling what, or how many, people are thinking or not thinking about the change. Disputing that fact is an effort in futility.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Perhaps the reason why we don't know what a majority of the players think about this change is that a majority of the players don't think about this change. Forums, internet polls, and so forth mostly attract people who think about games far more than most.
Please enlighten us as to how it is that you know what the majority of players are thinking or not thinking?
Because the Change.org petition has a total of 5000 signatures and is a week old. As we know, they sold somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million copies in North America. So I'm pretty sure that there are officially zero fucks to be given. You are talking about 1% of users have signed a petition. Well, a number representing 1% of their user base. It's possible that multiple people signed more than once. Chances are you're not the ones paying them money anyway, so they don't care if you leave.
That still offers no indication as to what people are thinking or not thinking about the change. I have a very specific thought on the matter but haven't participated in any of those polls. And there is a highly probable chance that there are many who fall into my same category as myself. My point isn't that people are thinking or not thinking about the change, but more so that there is no way of telling what, or how many, people are thinking or not thinking about the change. Disputing that fact is an effort in futility.
You are tilting at windmills at this point.
Its a lot easier to throw out one line rebuttals that explain nothing, than actually offering a rebuttal, isn't it? The fact of the matter is that arguing against poll results flies both ways. You can't, on the one hand, disregard them only when they support your argument that they shouldn't be given attention because they only represent an angry vocal minority, and in the same breath totally disregard the fact that there may be just as many in that supposed "minority" who are remaining silent and not participating but yet in a disagreement with the change, as there are in the silent "majority" who are supposedly not participating because they agree with the change and are not angry. Bottom line is that you can't possibly know what the "whole" of the people are thinking or not thinking. That's just common sense.
The correct title of that petition should be, all irrelevant comments go here. Those against P2W are not the intended audience of F2P. The only consideration to be given to the P4F crowd is that they are allowed to take up space, and their in game characters may die to / for the entertainment of the paying customers. They are the singing dancing bears in Country Bears Jamboree. Their opinion of what is and isn't good for them is irrelevant. So long as they are not spending $15+ a month on the game they have no say in the matter.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
But it is one thing to click a little button or make noise on the internet... Completely different to actually taking action.... Most people suck at taking action.
This would have all been over with if people would just have turned the game off and walked away as soon as the news hit. That's the only metric that matters. Anybody protesting in-game is a walking contradiction.
[edited for space] "F#%K CHEESEBURGERS MAN! AMIRITE? WHO IS WITH ME!!!!"
The people who have / are spending money are not complaining, that's why they continue to play. The non-spending freeloaders weren't noticed when they stopped playing in protest. Their protest had Zero impact, much as their opinion.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
P4F gamers have not bought BDO, they were waiting for it to go F2P. Those who have bought BDO are using the cash shop. If any that have bought the game and left, it has not become apparent.
The vast majority are spending money in and on the game. The crying minority have not spent money on the game and are crying about P2W that doesn't affect them. Since they aren't playing the game.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
As I said in another thread, I've rarely seen a shitstorm of that magnitude. Maybe 1 or 2 other times in my whole MMORPG career which started 20+ years ago, and not even sure it was that bad.
And for @Fish_Tacos : they definitely won't get a single cent more from me ever, neither for this game nor for any other game they may publish.
I'll take that a step farther and say that any Korean developer/publisher will have a much higher bar to reach to gain me as a customer. Archeage and now BDO. Fool me twice...shame on me. I'll stick with Western and/or Japanese titles until I see evidence of change.
What every dev/pub should stand behind: "We're committed to creating a fair playing field for all players. You cannot gain gameplay advantage by spending real money in [INSERT GAME NAME]."
As I said in another thread, I've rarely seen a shitstorm of that magnitude. Maybe 1 or 2 other times in my whole MMORPG career which started 20+ years ago, and not even sure it was that bad.
And for @Fish_Tacos : they definitely won't get a single cent more from me ever, neither for this game nor for any other game they may publish.
I'll take that a step farther and say that any Korean developer/publisher will have a much higher bar to reach to gain me as a customer. Archeage and now BDO. Fool me twice...shame on me. I'll stick with Western and/or Japanese titles until I see evidence of change.
Possibly the most sensible thing I've heard all day. Kudos for at least taking some of the responsibility for however shitty a situation it is.
It does not matter BDO was going P2W any which way. That is how Korean MMOs go, Have Money buy the best gear in game. This is why F2P does not work. B2P with an optional sub like ESO or a full P2P MMO is the best ways to go. You spent a hell of a lot less in money then you ever will with this F2P P2W Bullshit.
I can't even visit their forums anymore. Apparently something I said on even my alt account got someone upset.
LOL lots of folks with their foot in their mouth today .....OMG some time rich cash poor player can now buy a pearl shop item for three hours of play ...it's over BDO can crash and burn .
This would have all been over with if people would just have turned the game off and walked away as soon as the news hit. That's the only metric that matters. Anybody protesting in-game is a walking contradiction.
"F#%K CHEESEBURGERS MAN! AMIRITE? WHO IS WITH ME!!!!"
Perhaps folks should actually have a fucking clue about what a change is before they protest
I applaud the effort, but how could they not have known this was coming. Everyone knew what this game was p2w before it even launched.
yeah well, i got insulted alot for trying to say it before lauch... hope they dont act like no one told them !!
many peoples told them the game was p2win in the others region far before the game have launch in europe and NA and anyone who act suprised by what they are doing kinda ''special''
that was the plan already before the game launch, they will take the most money in everyone pocket then just forget the games after a while...
will also tell a special flash : rider of icarus go the same route, so leave before !! i told you !!
I'll take that a step farther and say that any Korean developer/publisher will have a much higher bar to reach to gain me as a customer. Archeage and now BDO. Fool me twice...shame on me. I'll stick with Western and/or Japanese titles until I see evidence of change.
I guess you won't have much to play ... I mean I could have almost agreed with you on the Korean angle if I hadn't played Daoc...Wow...Aoc...Everquest...Starwars...Startrek,,,Eso,,,City of Hero's,,,Terra...The Secret World ...Warhammer...LotR....Rift..just to name a few . I'll bet they all cost me a lot more then $30 and set the yardstick pretty low as to what a developer can shovel into the Western market
Doesn't SWTOR let you do that as well? Doesn't WOW sell tokens? Seems Western developers are not immune either. Focusing on the Korean market while ignoring the Western publishers doing the exact same thing seems a bit bias.
True. For me, the issue is about how and with whom we choose to do business based on our own personal ethics regardless of the origin of the business partner. Every nation has produced and continues to produce its share of shysters.
I'll take that a step farther and say that any Korean developer/publisher will have a much higher bar to reach to gain me as a customer. Archeage and now BDO. Fool me twice...shame on me. I'll stick with Western and/or Japanese titles until I see evidence of change.
I guess you won't have much to play ... I mean I could have almost agreed with you on the Korean angle if I hadn't played Daoc...Wow...Aoc...Everquest...Starwars...Startrek,,,Eso,,,City of Hero's,,,Terra...The Secret World ...Warhammer...LotR....Rift..just to name a few . I'll bet they all cost me a lot more then $30 and set the yardstick pretty low as to what a developer can shovel into the Western market
Western games tend to favour quality over quantity, well thats the theory at least, personally i have to agree with papsmerv, it will be a long time before i give a Korean made game the benefit of the doubt again, P2W seems to be endemic, i'll stick with subscription games in future, the ones i play are good, and they cost less to play than so called F2P games that are almost always P2W in nature, with gated content and cash shop items that are invariably a necessity if your going to play a less frustrating version of the game. With subscription games, the charges are more honest, your paying up front and there are no hidden charges, i had hoped that BDO would be the 'breath of fresh air' that would be the exception to the usual stuff that the Korean market generates, they have let themselves down and proven they cannot resist temptation. This is probably why the Korean market is so insular and why their games do not do well outside of their own market, perhaps its time to just write them off as a dead loss and move on.
Comments
Please enlighten us as to how it is that you know what the majority of players are thinking or not thinking?
I can see why some people don't like this, but IMO they're really making it sound a lot worse than it is.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Even on this site you can expect a bucket full of usual suspects but the actual traffic is far greater. I've received messages on this forum from people who pretty much stated that they like going to the website but never post.
So if a fraction of the player base is posting on forums and there is some other part of that group who dislikes something then that's a fraction of a fraction.
At least those that express their displeasure. I believe for most people that when they are "done" with a game they don't go to forums and make copious posts about their gaming history to legitimize their standing and then go on about why they are quitting.
I believe they just walk away.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Because the Change.org petition has a total of 5000 signatures and is a week old. As we know, they sold somewhere in the neighborhood of half a million copies in North America. So I'm pretty sure that there are officially zero fucks to be given. You are talking about 1% of users have signed a petition. Well, a number representing 1% of their user base. It's possible that multiple people signed more than once. Chances are you're not the ones paying them money anyway, so they don't care if you leave.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
That still offers no indication as to what people are thinking or not thinking about the change. I have a very specific thought on the matter but haven't participated in any of those polls. And there is a highly probable chance that there are many who fall into my same category as myself. My point isn't that people are thinking or not thinking about the change, but more so that there is no way of telling what, or how many, people are thinking or not thinking about the change. Disputing that fact is an effort in futility.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its a lot easier to throw out one line rebuttals that explain nothing, than actually offering a rebuttal, isn't it?
The fact of the matter is that arguing against poll results flies both ways. You can't, on the one hand, disregard them only when they support your argument that they shouldn't be given attention because they only represent an angry vocal minority, and in the same breath totally disregard the fact that there may be just as many in that supposed "minority" who are remaining silent and not participating but yet in a disagreement with the change, as there are in the silent "majority" who are supposedly not participating because they agree with the change and are not angry. Bottom line is that you can't possibly know what the "whole" of the people are thinking or not thinking. That's just common sense.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
But it is one thing to click a little button or make noise on the internet... Completely different to actually taking action.... Most people suck at taking action.
But A for effort i guess.
This have been a good conversation
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The vast majority are spending money in and on the game. The crying minority have not spent money on the game and are crying about P2W that doesn't affect them. Since they aren't playing the game.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Possibly the most sensible thing I've heard all day. Kudos for at least taking some of the responsibility for however shitty a situation it is.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
LOL lots of folks with their foot in their mouth today .....OMG some time rich cash poor player can now buy a pearl shop item for three hours of play ...it's over BDO can crash and burn .
Perhaps folks should actually have a fucking clue about what a change is before they protest
many peoples told them the game was p2win in the others region far before the game have launch in europe and NA and anyone who act suprised by what they are doing kinda ''special''
that was the plan already before the game launch, they will take the most money in everyone pocket then just forget the games after a while...
will also tell a special flash : rider of icarus go the same route, so leave before !! i told you !!
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
With subscription games, the charges are more honest, your paying up front and there are no hidden charges, i had hoped that BDO would be the 'breath of fresh air' that would be the exception to the usual stuff that the Korean market generates, they have let themselves down and proven they cannot resist temptation.
This is probably why the Korean market is so insular and why their games do not do well outside of their own market, perhaps its time to just write them off as a dead loss and move on.