I will sum this up. The addicted out of control poor souls cannot control their behavior when it comes to spending money. They think spending money will relieve mental problems they might have in real life. The reasonable type of gamer who has just as much passion realizes that P2W is wrong. Of course there is the first time player who buys the game, and maybe buys a few things more then has an awakening. They stop playing when they realize it is a bad system. Bottom line P2W systems is almost like gambling except there are some differences which are minor if you look very deeply into it. A spade is a spade people. Rose is a rose no matter what name you call it.
If that was the definition of P2W then you're saying that ONLY rng loot boxes are P2W. I could sell you BiS gear directly and that would not be P2W. That's not a great, encompassing definition at all. That is far from the bottom line. Actually, I don't even think that loot boxes are, necessarily, P2W. I'm not a fan of them because of reasons you mention, but that doesn't make them P2W.
I will sum this up. The addicted out of control poor souls cannot control their behavior when it comes to spending money. They think spending money will relieve mental problems they might have in real life. The reasonable type of gamer who has just as much passion realizes that P2W is wrong. Of course there is the first time player who buys the game, and maybe buys a few things more then has an awakening. They stop playing when they realize it is a bad system. Bottom line P2W systems is almost like gambling except there are some differences which are minor if you look very deeply into it. A spade is a spade people. Rose is a rose no matter what name you call it.
If that was the definition of P2W then you're saying that ONLY rng loot boxes are P2W. I could sell you BiS gear directly and that would not be P2W. That's not a great, encompassing definition at all. That is far from the bottom line. Actually, I don't even think that loot boxes are, necessarily, P2W. I'm not a fan of them because of reasons you mention, but that doesn't make them P2W.
First process when in denial is a defense mechanism. Rationalization is the normal human response. Everything is rationalized away, and the person is pushed further from reality and deeper into delusion. If you tell them the truth, they either forget it or scoff at you in
unbelief. All they remember is that they were brilliantly witty and
entertaining and that it felt good.
And no, the fact that they didn't respond proves nothing except they are dickheads and know that anything they say will be turned against them, especially since there is nothing to say except "Fuck you all, we're doing it anyway."
I don't really think most businesses work that way. I think his point is that if a business does something then they usually believe that they are doing "the right thing".
My guess is that they have a lot of data from this sort of thing and they know that it's a non-issue.
Is it possible that they have made the most grave error and the game will actually go down in flames? Possible but I seem to doubt it.
Not sure why "the game won't go down in flames" should be a goal for Dev or gamer.
I mean, yeah, obviously a company is not going to do something against their own interest. Considering they are moving away from gaming, their interests don't seem to align with ours, though.
MMORPGs have so much potential. All they're being used for nowadays is quick cash and e-peen stroking for whales.
Main thing I'm confused about is you guys championing the practice of deceiving players and outright ignoring thousands of their pleas.
once again . they didnt deceive anyone , they made it clear what there intentions were.... you knew that.. Didnt you
And no, the fact that they didn't respond proves nothing except they are dickheads and know that anything they say will be turned against them, especially since there is nothing to say except "Fuck you all, we're doing it anyway."
I don't really think most businesses work that way. I think his point is that if a business does something then they usually believe that they are doing "the right thing".
My guess is that they have a lot of data from this sort of thing and they know that it's a non-issue.
Is it possible that they have made the most grave error and the game will actually go down in flames? Possible but I seem to doubt it.
Not sure why "the game won't go down in flames" should be a goal for Dev or gamer.
I mean, yeah, obviously a company is not going to do something against their own interest. Considering they are moving away from gaming, their interests don't seem to align with ours, though.
MMORPGs have so much potential. All they're being used for nowadays is quick cash and e-peen stroking for whales.
Main thing I'm confused about is you guys championing the practice of deceiving players and outright ignoring thousands of their pleas.
once again . they didnt deceive anyone , they made it clear what there intentions were.... you knew that.. Didnt you
Saying "they made it clear what their intentions were" is a disingenuous overstatement. They really didn't make it clear at all. What they did make clear was that they would be making the game B2P because they would not be adding P2W elements into the game. What has, in fact, become very clear is that, that was not their intent at all.
And no, the fact that they didn't respond proves nothing except they are dickheads and know that anything they say will be turned against them, especially since there is nothing to say except "Fuck you all, we're doing it anyway."
I don't really think most businesses work that way. I think his point is that if a business does something then they usually believe that they are doing "the right thing".
My guess is that they have a lot of data from this sort of thing and they know that it's a non-issue.
Is it possible that they have made the most grave error and the game will actually go down in flames? Possible but I seem to doubt it.
Not sure why "the game won't go down in flames" should be a goal for Dev or gamer.
I mean, yeah, obviously a company is not going to do something against their own interest. Considering they are moving away from gaming, their interests don't seem to align with ours, though.
MMORPGs have so much potential. All they're being used for nowadays is quick cash and e-peen stroking for whales.
Main thing I'm confused about is you guys championing the practice of deceiving players and outright ignoring thousands of their pleas.
once again . they didnt deceive anyone , they made it clear what there intentions were.... you knew that.. Didnt you
Saying "they made it clear what their intentions were" is a disingenuous overstatement. They really didn't make it clear at all. What they did make clear was that they would be making the game B2P because they would not be adding P2W elements into the game. What has, in fact, become very clear is that, that was not their intent at all.
Ohh it was clear alright , and there are several threads pre release right here on MMORPG where many people told the community EXactly waht there intentions were and what would happen .. It waant guess work , a great mystery ,or speculation .. Many KNEW excatly what there intentions were with there entire B2P model and warned this community of it ..
And no, the fact that they didn't respond proves nothing except they are dickheads and know that anything they say will be turned against them, especially since there is nothing to say except "Fuck you all, we're doing it anyway."
I don't really think most businesses work that way. I think his point is that if a business does something then they usually believe that they are doing "the right thing".
My guess is that they have a lot of data from this sort of thing and they know that it's a non-issue.
Is it possible that they have made the most grave error and the game will actually go down in flames? Possible but I seem to doubt it.
Not sure why "the game won't go down in flames" should be a goal for Dev or gamer.
I mean, yeah, obviously a company is not going to do something against their own interest. Considering they are moving away from gaming, their interests don't seem to align with ours, though.
MMORPGs have so much potential. All they're being used for nowadays is quick cash and e-peen stroking for whales.
Main thing I'm confused about is you guys championing the practice of deceiving players and outright ignoring thousands of their pleas.
once again . they didnt deceive anyone , they made it clear what there intentions were.... you knew that.. Didnt you
Saying "they made it clear what their intentions were" is a disingenuous overstatement. They really didn't make it clear at all. What they did make clear was that they would be making the game B2P because they would not be adding P2W elements into the game. What has, in fact, become very clear is that, that was not their intent at all.
I may have gotten lost somewhere. What exactly are they selling now that is "P2W" that they weren't selling before?
They're not selling BiS gear, even thought that's been used as the mascot of the argument. They're not selling a new combat buff.
Having gotten lost somewhere is the only explanation for just now getting around to asking that question. It is the most basic and most often answered question on the subject since this debate even began. That being said, I am glad you have now found your way, though a more prudent approach may have been to do a bit of research prior to posting.
I am not going to repeat what I, and many others, have already made abundantly clear ad nauseum in the dozens, if not hundreds, of threads and posts on this matter in this forum. Feel free to search through my post history for your answer. If that doesn't satisfy, then may I suggest the BDO forum or any in the hundreds of other forums, game site articles, and/or You Tube videos that have provided commentary on the subject. Barring any of the above, google is your friend. Its free to use, go for it.
Why does this site seem to always operate under the premise that there is the "Vocal Minority" that does not represent the "Silent Majority"? Where did that assumption come from? Where is there any evidence that suggest that the "Vocal Minority" is not an accurate sample group of "Silent Majority"?
Who suggested these two groups are at odds? Doesn't anyone find it convenient that someone can come out and speak for the "Silent Majority" given they don't speak for themselves, and thus anything can be said about them?
It probably comes from a few articles by developers where they stated that they saw inconsistencies between what people were saying on the forums and what was happening in game.
hence "vocal minority".
But it's a good point in that the vocal members of a forum may or may not represent the gaming community as a whole and probably should be taken by a case by case basis.
You mean these same developers who blamed the player bases and the business models for problems with their games?
You made a valid complaint about unsubstantiated vague broad generalizations and then went and made an unsubstantiated vague broad generalization that has no specific related real world event. No one can argue against it because the questions of what developers, what game, what business model, which problems, aren't defined.
In the best world there would be no assertions manufactured from baseless assumptions. In a thoughtful discussion people would make assertions based on facts, or at least verifiable observations. If someone implies that a majority group has a certain preference then they need to prove that. Facts first, conclusions after.
But we always skip all that because I think that sort of arguing actually takes effort and may not easily promote the preconceived agenda we're coming here to argue about, especially when it's subjective.
I know with a bit of work, I can find statements I have read in the past, released by SOE, Zneimax, Carbine, BioWare and with a bit of research I can probably find more. These publishers released official statements explaining that the reason their games were not doing as well as expected was due to the player base's desire to eat through content too quickly, or that the issue was that the subscription model itself was obsolete.
I it's not hyperbole to make this claim because They did it. Not all, but some. Can we go back and find statements, from the very same publishers saying players don't know what they want or that there is a vocal minority that didn't represent the whole? I don't know, I'm not doing it, but I would honestly be surprised if it was not the same ones. At least in part.
Then those discussion should be taken within the context of those events not generically extrapolated to fit an unrelated argument and discussion. They could be related or they may not be. It still comes down to context and facts.
And what context are you referring to? I made a comment....Albeit sarcastic, but imo, not unrelated. My context as you say was that I wouldn't be surprised if the same publishers who used "Vocal Minority" came up with that as an excuse for not paying attention to their player base. As for the facts, it's as I said, I could probably do a little research and it wouldn't take much. I just don't feel like doing it. But I will disagree with the idea that I shouldn't have expressed this as my opinion.
Just to clarify the devs have nothing to do with pricing items or the game. The one's doing that are higher up in the business. So don't take it down on them for just following what they are told to say or do.
But yes i do understand the way they phrase everything at first and now with what happened it is a slap in the face. But guys it is a asian game what did you guys expected? They always make P2W games, everything they do in life is to get more money in there own pockets! It will never change, NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!
Saying "they made it clear what their intentions were" is a disingenuous overstatement. They really didn't make it clear at all. What they did make clear was that they would be making the game B2P because they would not be adding P2W elements into the game. What has, in fact, become very clear is that, that was not their intent at all.
I may have gotten lost somewhere. What exactly are they selling now that is "P2W" that they weren't selling before?
They're not selling BiS gear, even thought that's been used as the mascot of the argument. They're not selling a new combat buff.
Having gotten lost somewhere is the only explanation for just now getting around to asking that question. It is the most basic and most often answered question on the subject since this debate even began. That being said, I am glad you have now found your way, though a more prudent approach may have been to do a bit of research prior to posting.
I am not going to repeat what I, and many others, have already made abundantly clear ad nauseum in the dozens, if not hundreds, of threads and posts on this matter in this forum. Feel free to search through my post history for your answer. If that doesn't satisfy, then may I suggest the BDO forum or any in the hundreds of other forums, game site articles, and/or You Tube videos that have provided commentary on the subject. Barring any of the above, google is your friend. Its free to use, go for it.
I was trying to be diplomatic more than I am unfamiliar with the subject so I'll ask again without all that.
What are they selling now that is "P2W" that they weren't selling before? I haven't seen anything in any discussion where anyone brought up a new item for sale. Therefore they aren't selling anything that would make the game more pay to win than before.
Previously, if someone had $200 they could buy those items that offered advantage (Ghilli suit, pets, etc). They can still do so. Nothing has changed in that regard.
If someone had the resources to sell extra high end gear they could do that. They can still sell their high end gear. Nothing has changed in that regard.
The only thing that has change is the way some people can pay for things. Those with extra cash can convert that to in game currency and buy things, others have crafted/farmed, that they may not have been able to buy that way before. Conversely those with extra resources can buy store items with their in game currency, if someone buys it from the store and sells it in game.
In addition, buying anything doesn't guarantee a win much like EVE and PLEX. Those who play a lot don't seem to mind the change because they can now buy cash shop stuff with game cash from playing. Those with extra money don't care.
In light of that the P2W seems exaggerated. It makes me wonder if the demographic complaining has little time or money and a fantasy that they were somehow on a more level playing field as a result. That's actually backwards because resources and availability for enhanced items and better gear are now available to more people than they were previously. There are more people with cash shop enhancing items. There are more people with in game cash to buy better gear. Wealth is being redistributed, through trade, more than ever.
Progression in MMORPGs is power. It is the means by which you develop and empower your character to get better and become competitive against your peers. Progression is the most fundamental mechanic behind MMORPG game play. In its most basic form, it is the single most powerful dynamic in MMORPG game play. Through progression (grind) you utilize your own skills, qualities, abilities, determination, patience and perseverance to overcome the challenges that the game places before in your journey to be one of the best and compete with the best in the game. In other words, it is a right of passage that the game anoints a player by virtue of the effort that the player exerted on their journey to achieving that anointed status.
Those players who are most successful in this endeavor, are in essence, the "winners" in MMORPG game play. Paying to avoid that journey (grind) and obtaining the benefits of that journey with the mere flick of a credit card, when your competitors are actually attaining it through their own effort via their inherent qualities, skills and abilities, is the very definition of "paying to win" in MMORPG game play. The point really cant be made any more clear.
As I said in another thread, I've rarely seen a shitstorm of that magnitude. Maybe 1 or 2 other times in my whole MMORPG career which started 20+ years ago, and not even sure it was that bad.
And for @Fish_Tacos : they definitely won't get a single cent more from me ever, neither for this game nor for any other game they may publish.
There hasn't really been a change of this magnitude in a game for several years, its only really happened once before in a game i really cared about, and at the moment it feels like being at ground zero deja vu. There is only really 2 possibilities, players either take it on the chin, and carry on, or they do what they did the last time, which was move on to other games. The last time this happened it was in a much smaller game, only a couple of hundred thousand players, BDO has, if numbers are to be believed, over a million players. The next few weeks will either prove that P2W is acceptable, or that it isn't. As much as i would wish to believe that the poll gained through out of game methods is indicative, the truth is, until we see something actually happening in game, we cannot know for sure either way, the trouble is, that at that point, it becomes too late to do anything about it.
I don't blame you if you're choosing to forget ArchAge/Trion/Rumbling Saplings. I know I wish I didn't have those memories.
Saying "they made it clear what their intentions were" is a disingenuous overstatement. They really didn't make it clear at all. What they did make clear was that they would be making the game B2P because they would not be adding P2W elements into the game. What has, in fact, become very clear is that, that was not their intent at all.
I may have gotten lost somewhere. What exactly are they selling now that is "P2W" that they weren't selling before?
They're not selling BiS gear, even thought that's been used as the mascot of the argument. They're not selling a new combat buff.
Having gotten lost somewhere is the only explanation for just now getting around to asking that question. It is the most basic and most often answered question on the subject since this debate even began. That being said, I am glad you have now found your way, though a more prudent approach may have been to do a bit of research prior to posting.
I am not going to repeat what I, and many others, have already made abundantly clear ad nauseum in the dozens, if not hundreds, of threads and posts on this matter in this forum. Feel free to search through my post history for your answer. If that doesn't satisfy, then may I suggest the BDO forum or any in the hundreds of other forums, game site articles, and/or You Tube videos that have provided commentary on the subject. Barring any of the above, google is your friend. Its free to use, go for it.
I was trying to be diplomatic more than I am unfamiliar with the subject so I'll ask again without all that.
What are they selling now that is "P2W" that they weren't selling before? I haven't seen anything in any discussion where anyone brought up a new item for sale. Therefore they aren't selling anything that would make the game more pay to win than before.
Previously, if someone had $200 they could buy those items that offered advantage (Ghilli suit, pets, etc). They can still do so. Nothing has changed in that regard.
If someone had the resources to sell extra high end gear they could do that. They can still sell their high end gear. Nothing has changed in that regard.
The only thing that has change is the way some people can pay for things. Those with extra cash can convert that to in game currency and buy things, others have crafted/farmed, that they may not have been able to buy that way before. Conversely those with extra resources can buy store items with their in game currency, if someone buys it from the store and sells it in game.
In addition, buying anything doesn't guarantee a win much like EVE and PLEX. Those who play a lot don't seem to mind the change because they can now buy cash shop stuff with game cash from playing. Those with extra money don't care.
In light of that the P2W seems exaggerated. It makes me wonder if the demographic complaining has little time or money and a fantasy that they were somehow on a more level playing field as a result. That's actually backwards because resources and availability for enhanced items and better gear are now available to more people than they were previously. There are more people with cash shop enhancing items. There are more people with in game cash to buy better gear. Wealth is being redistributed, through trade, more than ever.
Progression in MMORPGs is power. It is the means by which you develop and empower your character to get better and become competitive against your peers. Progression is the most fundamental mechanic behind MMORPG game play. In its most basic form, it is the single most powerful dynamic in MMORPG game play. Through progression (grind) you utilize your own skills, qualities, abilities, determination, patience and perseverance to overcome the challenges that the game places before in your journey to be one of the best and compete with the best in the game. In other words, it is a right of passage that the game anoints a player by virtue of the effort that the player exerted on their journey to achieving that anointed status.
Those players who are most successful in this endeavor, are in essence, the "winners" in MMORPG game play. Paying to avoid that journey (grind) and obtaining the benefits of that journey with the mere flick of a credit card, when your competitors are actually attaining it through their own effort via their inherent qualities, skills and abilities, is the very definition of "paying to win" in MMORPG game play. The point really cant be made any more clear.
That depends, are there necessary controls in place to prevent someone from being able to simply "win" with the swipe of a credit card? I believe there is here, is there not? Weren't there restrictions? So, in theory, those who invest more effort than those with a credit card would "win".
there re was ample time for people to become max level so, therefore, at this point, by your own definition, there is no "winning" to be had. Or am I wrong?
So what happened? Did they just carry on and screw the protests? I'm guessing people just quit otherwise there would have been threads on the turn-around...
They announced 6 weeks before the game launched how after the launch phase they would evaluate selling cash shop items in the auction house.
So they went with their plan.
Did you honestly think that some small % of players "protesting" would change their business plan?
Players are consumers - not business owners - so they should never have any power over how game companies conduct their own business.
When it is a large majority yes. When it's the right thing yes. Personally I don't think its either at this point. But time will tell.
Saying "they made it clear what their intentions were" is a disingenuous overstatement. They really didn't make it clear at all. What they did make clear was that they would be making the game B2P because they would not be adding P2W elements into the game. What has, in fact, become very clear is that, that was not their intent at all.
I may have gotten lost somewhere. What exactly are they selling now that is "P2W" that they weren't selling before?
They're not selling BiS gear, even thought that's been used as the mascot of the argument. They're not selling a new combat buff.
Having gotten lost somewhere is the only explanation for just now getting around to asking that question. It is the most basic and most often answered question on the subject since this debate even began. That being said, I am glad you have now found your way, though a more prudent approach may have been to do a bit of research prior to posting.
I am not going to repeat what I, and many others, have already made abundantly clear ad nauseum in the dozens, if not hundreds, of threads and posts on this matter in this forum. Feel free to search through my post history for your answer. If that doesn't satisfy, then may I suggest the BDO forum or any in the hundreds of other forums, game site articles, and/or You Tube videos that have provided commentary on the subject. Barring any of the above, google is your friend. Its free to use, go for it.
I was trying to be diplomatic more than I am unfamiliar with the subject so I'll ask again without all that.
What are they selling now that is "P2W" that they weren't selling before? I haven't seen anything in any discussion where anyone brought up a new item for sale. Therefore they aren't selling anything that would make the game more pay to win than before.
Previously, if someone had $200 they could buy those items that offered advantage (Ghilli suit, pets, etc). They can still do so. Nothing has changed in that regard.
If someone had the resources to sell extra high end gear they could do that. They can still sell their high end gear. Nothing has changed in that regard.
The only thing that has change is the way some people can pay for things. Those with extra cash can convert that to in game currency and buy things, others have crafted/farmed, that they may not have been able to buy that way before. Conversely those with extra resources can buy store items with their in game currency, if someone buys it from the store and sells it in game.
In addition, buying anything doesn't guarantee a win much like EVE and PLEX. Those who play a lot don't seem to mind the change because they can now buy cash shop stuff with game cash from playing. Those with extra money don't care.
In light of that the P2W seems exaggerated. It makes me wonder if the demographic complaining has little time or money and a fantasy that they were somehow on a more level playing field as a result. That's actually backwards because resources and availability for enhanced items and better gear are now available to more people than they were previously. There are more people with cash shop enhancing items. There are more people with in game cash to buy better gear. Wealth is being redistributed, through trade, more than ever.
Progression in MMORPGs is power. It is the means by which you develop and empower your character to get better and become competitive against your peers. Progression is the most fundamental mechanic behind MMORPG game play. In its most basic form, it is the single most powerful dynamic in MMORPG game play. Through progression (grind) you utilize your own skills, qualities, abilities, determination, patience and perseverance to overcome the challenges that the game places before in your journey to be one of the best and compete with the best in the game. In other words, it is a right of passage that the game anoints a player by virtue of the effort that the player exerted on their journey to achieving that anointed status.
Those players who are most successful in this endeavor, are in essence, the "winners" in MMORPG game play. Paying to avoid that journey (grind) and obtaining the benefits of that journey with the mere flick of a credit card, when your competitors are actually attaining it through their own effort via their inherent qualities, skills and abilities, is the very definition of "paying to win" in MMORPG game play. The point really cant be made any more clear.
That depends, are there necessary controls in place to prevent someone from being able to simply "win" with the swipe of a credit card? I believe there is here, is there not? Weren't there restrictions? So, in theory, those who invest more effort than those with a credit card would "win".
there re was ample time for people to become max level so, therefore, at this point, by your own definition, there is no "winning" to be had. Or am I wrong?
There exists no "black or white," "line in the sand" definition for the term "P2W" in MMORPGs. There are extremes. Some "P2W" business plans are simply more egregious than others. That doesnt make one business plan any less P2W than another. It simply makes it less egregious.
Why does this site seem to always operate under the premise that there is the "Vocal Minority" that does not represent the "Silent Majority"? Where did that assumption come from? Where is there any evidence that suggest that the "Vocal Minority" is not an accurate sample group of "Silent Majority"?
Who suggested these two groups are at odds? Doesn't anyone find it convenient that someone can come out and speak for the "Silent Majority" given they don't speak for themselves, and thus anything can be said about them?
It probably comes from a few articles by developers where they stated that they saw inconsistencies between what people were saying on the forums and what was happening in game.
hence "vocal minority".
But it's a good point in that the vocal members of a forum may or may not represent the gaming community as a whole and probably should be taken by a case by case basis.
You mean these same developers who blamed the player bases and the business models for problems with their games?
You made a valid complaint about unsubstantiated vague broad generalizations and then went and made an unsubstantiated vague broad generalization that has no specific related real world event. No one can argue against it because the questions of what developers, what game, what business model, which problems, aren't defined.
In the best world there would be no assertions manufactured from baseless assumptions. In a thoughtful discussion people would make assertions based on facts, or at least verifiable observations. If someone implies that a majority group has a certain preference then they need to prove that. Facts first, conclusions after.
But we always skip all that because I think that sort of arguing actually takes effort and may not easily promote the preconceived agenda we're coming here to argue about, especially when it's subjective.
I know with a bit of work, I can find statements I have read in the past, released by SOE, Zneimax, Carbine, BioWare and with a bit of research I can probably find more. These publishers released official statements explaining that the reason their games were not doing as well as expected was due to the player base's desire to eat through content too quickly, or that the issue was that the subscription model itself was obsolete.
I it's not hyperbole to make this claim because They did it. Not all, but some. Can we go back and find statements, from the very same publishers saying players don't know what they want or that there is a vocal minority that didn't represent the whole? I don't know, I'm not doing it, but I would honestly be surprised if it was not the same ones. At least in part.
Then those discussion should be taken within the context of those events not generically extrapolated to fit an unrelated argument and discussion. They could be related or they may not be. It still comes down to context and facts.
And what context are you referring to? I made a comment....Albeit sarcastic, but imo, not unrelated. My context as you say was that I wouldn't be surprised if the same publishers who used "Vocal Minority" came up with that as an excuse for not paying attention to their player base. As for the facts, it's as I said, I could probably do a little research and it wouldn't take much. I just don't feel like doing it. But I will disagree with the idea that I shouldn't have expressed this as my opinion.
That's my point. You can't arbitrarily attribute a position to another party, especially out of context, and then apply it as though it has meaning within the context of this discussion. It's not an established fact that any one publisher has this position and uses it as an "excuse" for anything.
The entire argument doesn't really apply to the vocal minority argument. Because if someone makes a claim either way that a percentage of the demographic likes/doesn't like a feature or situation, then they should back that up, or just speak for themselves or the facts.
It's more conservative to assume that anything is from a minority point of view until proven otherwise. What I mean is someone can speak for themselves (a definite minority at least to start with) and that's all anyone can assume share that opinion until proven otherwise. The question could certainly be asked if others feel the same way, but it couldn't reliably be answered without proof.
Most "logical" arguments on a forum go like this: "I feel so strongly this way that others must feel it too. I feel it is wrong / right and since I feel it strongly and possibly have heard another echo a similar sentiment, a lot of others must feel it too." That's not logic. Logic, at its most simple, just looks at the facts, draws a conclusion from that, and then tests when the reasoning to get there is true or false.
I get what you are saying, but I think you are reading too far into what was nothing more than an off handed, sarcastic comment.
Returning to the title of this thread, the fraction of the playerbase that is extremely vocal about the changes is most certainly a small minority. That vocal minority is almost entirely against the change, but that doesn't tell us anything about whether the quiet majority agrees with the vocal minority, disagrees, is divided evenly, or (most likely) simply doesn't care nearly as much as the vocal minority.
Even if most of the playerbase is against a change, that doesn't automatically mean that a company shouldn't make it. You'd like it if most of the things you buy cost less rather than cost more. You'd like it if your job paid you more rather than less. That doesn't automatically mean that that's the way it should be.
Returning to the title of this thread, the fraction of the playerbase that is extremely vocal about the changes is most certainly a small minority. That vocal minority is almost entirely against the change, but that doesn't tell us anything about whether the quiet majority agrees with the vocal minority, disagrees, is divided evenly, or (most likely) simply doesn't care nearly as much as the vocal minority.
Even if most of the playerbase is against a change, that doesn't automatically mean that a company shouldn't make it. You'd like it if most of the things you buy cost less rather than cost more. You'd like it if your job paid you more rather than less. That doesn't automatically mean that that's the way it should be.
This is exactly what I have been saying. If you want to guess what the "silent majority" is thinking, well, there is no firm answer for that, but take a look at the situation and the context. BDO is moving from one business model that was tailored for the Western Market, and moving to a more traditional Asian business model.
How do Western gamers, in general, feel about the traditional Asian F2P business model? That's another question that also remains largely unanswered except that we know the model does better in Asia than it does here. We can also use ArcheAge as a measuring stick. The game was very well received during it's testing period and could have been poised to be a major player in the West. Until the business model was revealed and the game's popularity suffered.
That's how I view the silent majority's opinion.
At the end of the day.......There really is only one demographic any of these games are interested in......The Wealthy Minority.
"Money Talks and Bullshit Walks" And these forums are full of Bullshit. (Yes, I included myself in that last part of that last comment)
For F2P games, 95% of the revenue is provided by 5% of the player base (or around that amount). I see statistics like this quoted by people in the business many times over.
So really, it's only that 5% minority that a company REALLY needs to care about, and they probably aren't the same minority as the vocal one complaining on the forums. Admittingly, caring about that 5% does indirectly include caring about the other 95% (since even that 5% tends to dislike playing in a ghost town) but only to a limited extent.
Of course, BDO is a B2P game. I don't think that changes much though when that basically just means Daum already has everyones' money from the initial purchase and thus still doesn't need to care about those who aren't continuing to cough up lots of whale cash.
The sky did not fall, no one won the game selling five $30 outfits this week for 19 million gold each. They lost in life, but they did not win in the game. Instead of crying over pay2win we should be laughing that someone actually spent $150 this week to buy some pixels.
The sky did not fall, no one won the game selling five $30 outfits this week for 19 million gold each. They lost in life, but they did not win in the game. Instead of crying over pay2win we should be laughing that someone actually spent $150 this week to buy some pixels.
They lost in life because they have enough disposable income to throw $150 weekly at a video game?
Some whales I know spend beyond their means. Other whales I known are rich as hell and thousands of dollars of whale money is pocket change to them and they love their rich life.
The latter has certainly NOT lost in life, that's for sure...
Some whales I know spend beyond their means. Other whales I known are rich as hell and thousands of dollars of whale money is pocket change to them and they love their rich life.
The latter has certainly NOT lost in life, that's for sure...
Some whales I know spend beyond their means. Other whales I known are rich as hell and thousands of dollars of whale money is pocket change to them and they love their rich life.
The latter has certainly NOT lost in life, that's for sure...
Lol
That's what they all say
That they're spending beyond their means, or that thousands of dollars is pocket change? The fact that I've seen both means they can't "all say" just one or the other.
Some whales I know spend beyond their means. Other whales I known are rich as hell and thousands of dollars of whale money is pocket change to them and they love their rich life.
The latter has certainly NOT lost in life, that's for sure...
Lol
That's what they all say
That they're spending beyond their means, or that thousands of dollars is pocket change? The fact that I've seen both means they can't "all say" just one or the other.
It doesn't matter whether one is spending beyond their means or whether one is rich as hell. They both are whales for the same reason and it's really no different than the neglected housewife spending a fortune on the home shopping network.
I fell for the shinnies once again with BDO after AA. Finally came to my senses in June, thank god I didn't also waste the past 2 months into this garbage. No more Eastern mmo's for me.
Haxus Council Member 21 year MMO veteran PvP Raid Leader Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
Comments
If that was the definition of P2W then you're saying that ONLY rng loot boxes are P2W. I could sell you BiS gear directly and that would not be P2W. That's not a great, encompassing definition at all. That is far from the bottom line. Actually, I don't even think that loot boxes are, necessarily, P2W. I'm not a fan of them because of reasons you mention, but that doesn't make them P2W.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Saying "they made it clear what their intentions were" is a disingenuous overstatement. They really didn't make it clear at all. What they did make clear was that they would be making the game B2P because they would not be adding P2W elements into the game. What has, in fact, become very clear is that, that was not their intent at all.
Having gotten lost somewhere is the only explanation for just now getting around to asking that question. It is the most basic and most often answered question on the subject since this debate even began. That being said, I am glad you have now found your way, though a more prudent approach may have been to do a bit of research prior to posting.
I am not going to repeat what I, and many others, have already made abundantly clear ad nauseum in the dozens, if not hundreds, of threads and posts on this matter in this forum. Feel free to search through my post history for your answer. If that doesn't satisfy, then may I suggest the BDO forum or any in the hundreds of other forums, game site articles, and/or You Tube videos that have provided commentary on the subject. Barring any of the above, google is your friend. Its free to use, go for it.
But yes i do understand the way they phrase everything at first and now with what happened it is a slap in the face. But guys it is a asian game what did you guys expected? They always make P2W games, everything they do in life is to get more money in there own pockets! It will never change, NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!
Progression in MMORPGs is power. It is the means by which you develop and empower your character to get better and become competitive against your peers. Progression is the most fundamental mechanic behind MMORPG game play. In its most basic form, it is the single most powerful dynamic in MMORPG game play. Through progression (grind) you utilize your own skills, qualities, abilities, determination, patience and perseverance to overcome the challenges that the game places before in your journey to be one of the best and compete with the best in the game. In other words, it is a right of passage that the game anoints a player by virtue of the effort that the player exerted on their journey to achieving that anointed status.
Those players who are most successful in this endeavor, are in essence, the "winners" in MMORPG game play. Paying to avoid that journey (grind) and obtaining the benefits of that journey with the mere flick of a credit card, when your competitors are actually attaining it through their own effort via their inherent qualities, skills and abilities, is the very definition of "paying to win" in MMORPG game play.
The point really cant be made any more clear.
That depends, are there necessary controls in place to prevent someone from being able to simply "win" with the swipe of a credit card? I believe there is here, is there not? Weren't there restrictions? So, in theory, those who invest more effort than those with a credit card would "win".
there re was ample time for people to become max level so, therefore, at this point, by your own definition, there is no "winning" to be had. Or am I wrong?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Even if most of the playerbase is against a change, that doesn't automatically mean that a company shouldn't make it. You'd like it if most of the things you buy cost less rather than cost more. You'd like it if your job paid you more rather than less. That doesn't automatically mean that that's the way it should be.
How do Western gamers, in general, feel about the traditional Asian F2P business model? That's another question that also remains largely unanswered except that we know the model does better in Asia than it does here. We can also use ArcheAge as a measuring stick. The game was very well received during it's testing period and could have been poised to be a major player in the West. Until the business model was revealed and the game's popularity suffered.
That's how I view the silent majority's opinion.
At the end of the day.......There really is only one demographic any of these games are interested in......The Wealthy Minority.
"Money Talks and Bullshit Walks"
And these forums are full of Bullshit. (Yes, I included myself in that last part of that last comment)
So really, it's only that 5% minority that a company REALLY needs to care about, and they probably aren't the same minority as the vocal one complaining on the forums. Admittingly, caring about that 5% does indirectly include caring about the other 95% (since even that 5% tends to dislike playing in a ghost town) but only to a limited extent.
Of course, BDO is a B2P game. I don't think that changes much though when that basically just means Daum already has everyones' money from the initial purchase and thus still doesn't need to care about those who aren't continuing to cough up lots of whale cash.
The sky did not fall, no one won the game selling five $30 outfits this week for 19 million gold each. They lost in life, but they did not win in the game. Instead of crying over pay2win we should be laughing that someone actually spent $150 this week to buy some pixels.
The latter has certainly NOT lost in life, that's for sure...
That's what they all say
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
These people are miserable.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red