I believe at the end of the day we are all willing to accept that there is going to be a game. It should have all the listed features because when you follow the project then you see they are getting closer and closer to that goal.
Its the process of how that game came to life that people have a problem with. Yes the process is important just watch "Hancock" for an example.
As a leader I need my people to trust me. I myself need to be trustworthy. I treat my people the way I want to be treated with honesty and dignity.
The way CIG treats us is like we are a means to an end. Ready to be thrown out once they are done with us. Telling us what we want to hear so we give more money.
CIG isn't my leader. They're just a developer - and I'm not affected in any way whatsoever except, exclusively, by the final outcome and whether that's been worth my investment or not. Assuming it's delivered while I'm still young enough to play it
To make it some kind of personal issue - and to pretend CIG aren't complete strangers doing their job - is not an attitude that would seem rational to me.
You are following and throwing money at them. You also believe everything they say and support everything they do. IDK what else would be required at this point to call them leaders.
Not interested in SQ42 at all, but waiting on the PU release. But as others have said, i only buy games after release now, nothing to do with CIG but games in general, as an example i'll use WoW, at one time i would have pre-ordered the expac, but now i wait until the expac is out, so no buying Legion until its actually released and i see a few reviews on it, particularly as early indications are unfavourable.
I believe at the end of the day we are all willing to accept that there is going to be a game. It should have all the listed features because when you follow the project then you see they are getting closer and closer to that goal.
Its the process of how that game came to life that people have a problem with. Yes the process is important just watch "Hancock" for an example.
As a leader I need my people to trust me. I myself need to be trustworthy. I treat my people the way I want to be treated with honesty and dignity.
The way CIG treats us is like we are a means to an end. Ready to be thrown out once they are done with us. Telling us what we want to hear so we give more money.
CIG isn't my leader. They're just a developer - and I'm not affected in any way whatsoever except, exclusively, by the final outcome and whether that's been worth my investment or not. Assuming it's delivered while I'm still young enough to play it
To make it some kind of personal issue - and to pretend CIG aren't complete strangers doing their job - is not an attitude that would seem rational to me.
You are following and throwing money at them. You also believe everything they say and support everything they do. IDK what else would be required at this point to call them leaders.
CIG is just as much your leader, since it seems that you can't resist posting into SC threads just as much, or more, than he does. So praise be thy lord and savior!
I believe at the end of the day we are all willing to accept that there is going to be a game. It should have all the listed features because when you follow the project then you see they are getting closer and closer to that goal.
Its the process of how that game came to life that people have a problem with. Yes the process is important just watch "Hancock" for an example.
As a leader I need my people to trust me. I myself need to be trustworthy. I treat my people the way I want to be treated with honesty and dignity.
The way CIG treats us is like we are a means to an end. Ready to be thrown out once they are done with us. Telling us what we want to hear so we give more money.
CIG isn't my leader. They're just a developer - and I'm not affected in any way whatsoever except, exclusively, by the final outcome and whether that's been worth my investment or not. Assuming it's delivered while I'm still young enough to play it
To make it some kind of personal issue - and to pretend CIG aren't complete strangers doing their job - is not an attitude that would seem rational to me.
You are following and throwing money at them. You also believe everything they say and support everything they do. IDK what else would be required at this point to call them leaders.
I support the game - and I generally believe what people say so long as it rings true and there's no sign of dishonesty. In that way, CIG seem quite truthful to me.
I don't follow them - I follow the development of the game.
I'm not sure you understand the concept of a leader.
If there's a leader in play here - it's probably that little voice in your head that's telling you to be against something you don't understand for reasons you can't make clear to others
Not interested in SQ42 at all, but waiting on the PU release. But as others have said, i only buy games after release now, nothing to do with CIG but games in general, as an example i'll use WoW, at one time i would have pre-ordered the expac, but now i wait until the expac is out, so no buying Legion until its actually released and i see a few reviews on it, particularly as early indications are unfavourable.
I think that's a wise position in general. There's so much hype and marketing bullshit in this industry.
The only reason I paid for SC is because I want to support its development and I have no problem taking a chance on something so bold and ambitious by developers so proven.
That said, I do buy the occasional game before I should. I'm human, what can I say
I'll ask why? Why stop selling ships? If I hired a janitor, I'm not going to have him helping my development team make some software, I'm probably going to have him cleaning the shitter. Same deal, if I hire some artists for making ship models, they should be doing that. If I have a sales staff, I expect they will be selling. The development team are the ones making the game. What would you have artists or sales staff or marketing staff do?
So in your world an artist who makes ship models can only make ship models? They can not work on other game art assets? Space stations, Planetary buildings, creatures, other vehicles besides sellable ships, they cant do that kind of stuff?
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Most of the so-called "haters" here do not think the game is a scam or that Chris set out to deceive anyone. The game will launch and in a manner of speaking it already has. What many of us have is frustration over the gaming industry and how it gets away with totally unethical business practices. Game designers like Chris Roberts and Sean Murray can say anything about their games and its perfectly ok.
Sean Murray specifically said they would not charge for DLC on the day of No Mans Sky release and then 8 days later reversed that decision. He said players could find one another in the game but said it was very unlikely and then on launch day 2 players find the same spot and can not see each other. The truth is there are no player models in the game, the player is just an invisible camera that shows the player what he sees so there is no way 2 people could ever see each other in this game and yet how many times did he say or infer that this was possible?
Its the same thing with Chris Roberts, he has said so many things from 2012 to the end of 2015 that there is no way possible it will all EVER make it into the game. Then add in all the controversy like the $20,000 space doors or paying a wanna-be actress who lied about having a business degree, to be the marketing person because she is your wife? What about advertising Star Marine footage for all of 2015 in order to draw up sales and then saying "Its in there" simply because you can shoot a gun?
Think about all the people who might have donated to Star Citizen based on things that Chris said:
1. Pay to Win
The plan is to support Star Citizen in a similar fashion to
Guild Wars 2. You buy the base game, get the single player Squadron 42 campaign
and access to the Star Citizen universe, and then have the option to buy
cosmetic and other non-balance-altering items for either real money or the
in-game currency you earn. Oct-2012
Yet you can now buy the biggest/baddest ships and dominate any player not willing to throw hundreds of dollars into the game
2. Concerning the delay of the game because of stretch goals
"... we don’t commit to adding features that would hold
up the game’s ability to go “live” in a fully functional state," Sept-2013
Yet he did and never did we see an option that a certain stretch goal would delay the game.
3. My personal favorite
The group that put together the tech base and did all the
research was less than 10 people. We’re going to ramp up to a much bigger group
of people. I don’t want to have a ridiculous group of 300 or 400 people," Oct-2012
I could go on and on and show you quote after quote from Chris that have turned out to be completely false or show a complete lack of project management ability but what is the point. The game will come out eventually, Chris and his top people will make boat loads of money, as they have been doing, and when it finally releases, the expectations will have been so high that it will come off exactly as No Mans Sky did.
Chris has some fantastic ideas and wants to make the game many of us want, I dont doubt that. What I doubt is his ability to deliver. He will deliver something but will he deliver that game he has been selling???
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
I'll ask why? Why stop selling ships? If I hired a janitor, I'm not going to have him helping my development team make some software, I'm probably going to have him cleaning the shitter. Same deal, if I hire some artists for making ship models, they should be doing that. If I have a sales staff, I expect they will be selling. The development team are the ones making the game. What would you have artists or sales staff or marketing staff do?
So in your world an artist who makes ship models can only make ship models? They can not work on other game art assets? Space stations, Planetary buildings, creatures, other vehicles besides sellable ships, they cant do that kind of stuff?
Who are you to comment on my world? Did you really take than away from what I said? Let me clear that up. If I hired some artists to immediately contribute to the ongoing funding (making money) and I hired a separate group of artists to do game art, then why would I move them over to doing game art? You're acting as though it's game art that is hold things up. Is that the case? If it is, please point me in the direction because my understanding is that there are way more complicated issues delaying the game than art assets. No?
I'll ask why? Why stop selling ships? If I hired a janitor, I'm not going to have him helping my development team make some software, I'm probably going to have him cleaning the shitter. Same deal, if I hire some artists for making ship models, they should be doing that. If I have a sales staff, I expect they will be selling. The development team are the ones making the game. What would you have artists or sales staff or marketing staff do?
So in your world an artist who makes ship models can only make ship models? They can not work on other game art assets? Space stations, Planetary buildings, creatures, other vehicles besides sellable ships, they cant do that kind of stuff?
Who are you to comment on my world? Did you really take than away from what I said? Let me clear that up. If I hired some artists to immediately contribute to the ongoing funding (making money) and I hired a separate group of artists to do game art, then why would I move them over to doing game art? You're acting as though it's game art that is hold things up. Is that the case? If it is, please point me in the direction because my understanding is that there are way more complicated issues delaying the game than art assets. No?
I was merely commenting on your comment that a janitor can only clean the toilet and nothing else. I'm sorry, I did not realize you had inside information from CIG that they hired artists to do ongoing funding and then a separate set of artists to do game art. It would seem the game art guys are not working at capacity since we are 4 years in and only seeing a few actual game assets besides ships.
Also, YOU specifically asked "What would you have artists or sales staff or marketing staff do?" and I gave you a perfectly rational answer. If you dont want an answer, dont ask the question.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
The only reason I paid for SC is because I want to support its development and I have no problem taking a chance on something so bold and ambitious by developers so proven.
No. Just no. They are NOT proven.
RSI has exactly ZERO games under their belt. Sure they have individuals that have made other games, some of them them even successful ones. But the TEAM working on SC is unproven. I dont know if you have a background in software development, but i would NEVER let a team work on something this size AND complexity unless they had worked together on something as a team and proven that the TEAM can deliver.
This was why I on page two called for them to make a fully FINISHED and working slice before I can start even beliving it is possible for them to deliver on something the scpoe and complexity of the full project.
The only reason I paid for SC is because I want to support its development and I have no problem taking a chance on something so bold and ambitious by developers so proven.
No. Just no. They are NOT proven.
RSI has exactly ZERO games under their belt. Sure they have individuals that have made other games, some of them them even successful ones. But the TEAM working on SC is unproven. I dont know if you have a background in software development, but i would NEVER let a team work on something this size AND complexity unless they had worked together on something as a team and proven that the TEAM can deliver.
This was why I on page two called for them to make a fully FINISHED and working slice before I can start even beliving it is possible for them to deliver on something the scpoe and complexity of the full project.
I'll save DKlond from writing a long reply that just boils down to "you don't understand game development".
Most of the so-called "haters" here do not think the game is a scam or that Chris set out to deceive anyone. The game will launch and in a manner of speaking it already has. What many of us have is frustration over the gaming industry and how it gets away with totally unethical business practices. Game designers like Chris Roberts and Sean Murray can say anything about their games and its perfectly ok.
Sean Murray specifically said they would not charge for DLC on the day of No Mans Sky release and then 8 days later reversed that decision. He said players could find one another in the game but said it was very unlikely and then on launch day 2 players find the same spot and can not see each other. The truth is there are no player models in the game, the player is just an invisible camera that shows the player what he sees so there is no way 2 people could ever see each other in this game and yet how many times did he say or infer that this was possible?
Its the same thing with Chris Roberts, he has said so many things from 2012 to the end of 2015 that there is no way possible it will all EVER make it into the game. Then add in all the controversy like the $20,000 space doors or paying a wanna-be actress who lied about having a business degree, to be the marketing person because she is your wife? What about advertising Star Marine footage for all of 2015 in order to draw up sales and then saying "Its in there" simply because you can shoot a gun?
Think about all the people who might have donated to Star Citizen based on things that Chris said:
1. Pay to Win
The plan is to support Star Citizen in a similar fashion to
Guild Wars 2. You buy the base game, get the single player Squadron 42 campaign
and access to the Star Citizen universe, and then have the option to buy
cosmetic and other non-balance-altering items for either real money or the
in-game currency you earn. Oct-2012
Yet you can now buy the biggest/baddest ships and dominate any player not willing to throw hundreds of dollars into the game
2. Concerning the delay of the game because of stretch goals
"... we don’t commit to adding features that would hold
up the game’s ability to go “live” in a fully functional state," Sept-2013
Yet he did and never did we see an option that a certain stretch goal would delay the game.
3. My personal favorite
The group that put together the tech base and did all the
research was less than 10 people. We’re going to ramp up to a much bigger group
of people. I don’t want to have a ridiculous group of 300 or 400 people," Oct-2012
I could go on and on and show you quote after quote from Chris that have turned out to be completely false or show a complete lack of project management ability but what is the point. The game will come out eventually, Chris and his top people will make boat loads of money, as they have been doing, and when it finally releases, the expectations will have been so high that it will come off exactly as No Mans Sky did.
Chris has some fantastic ideas and wants to make the game many of us want, I dont doubt that. What I doubt is his ability to deliver. He will deliver something but will he deliver that game he has been selling???
And I thought I did my homework.... thanks for doing what I was too lazy to do. I just don't feel like searching and quoting everything even though there's enough to write a book on this stuff.
Most of the so-called "haters" here do not think the game is a scam or that Chris set out to deceive anyone. The game will launch and in a manner of speaking it already has. What many of us have is frustration over the gaming industry and how it gets away with totally unethical business practices. Game designers like Chris Roberts and Sean Murray can say anything about their games and its perfectly ok.
Sean Murray specifically said they would not charge for DLC on the day of No Mans Sky release and then 8 days later reversed that decision. He said players could find one another in the game but said it was very unlikely and then on launch day 2 players find the same spot and can not see each other. The truth is there are no player models in the game, the player is just an invisible camera that shows the player what he sees so there is no way 2 people could ever see each other in this game and yet how many times did he say or infer that this was possible?
Its the same thing with Chris Roberts, he has said so many things from 2012 to the end of 2015 that there is no way possible it will all EVER make it into the game. Then add in all the controversy like the $20,000 space doors or paying a wanna-be actress who lied about having a business degree, to be the marketing person because she is your wife? What about advertising Star Marine footage for all of 2015 in order to draw up sales and then saying "Its in there" simply because you can shoot a gun?
Think about all the people who might have donated to Star Citizen based on things that Chris said:
1. Pay to Win
The plan is to support Star Citizen in a similar fashion to
Guild Wars 2. You buy the base game, get the single player Squadron 42 campaign
and access to the Star Citizen universe, and then have the option to buy
cosmetic and other non-balance-altering items for either real money or the
in-game currency you earn. Oct-2012
Yet you can now buy the biggest/baddest ships and dominate any player not willing to throw hundreds of dollars into the game
2. Concerning the delay of the game because of stretch goals
"... we don’t commit to adding features that would hold
up the game’s ability to go “live” in a fully functional state," Sept-2013
Yet he did and never did we see an option that a certain stretch goal would delay the game.
3. My personal favorite
The group that put together the tech base and did all the
research was less than 10 people. We’re going to ramp up to a much bigger group
of people. I don’t want to have a ridiculous group of 300 or 400 people," Oct-2012
I could go on and on and show you quote after quote from Chris that have turned out to be completely false or show a complete lack of project management ability but what is the point. The game will come out eventually, Chris and his top people will make boat loads of money, as they have been doing, and when it finally releases, the expectations will have been so high that it will come off exactly as No Mans Sky did.
Chris has some fantastic ideas and wants to make the game many of us want, I dont doubt that. What I doubt is his ability to deliver. He will deliver something but will he deliver that game he has been selling???
Ok, long one....
First, show me a developer and I'll dig up some quotes they made which were untrue. Fuck, show me ANYBODY and I'll dig up some quotes that are untrue. Great thing about the Internet is that nobody can say anything or do anything without being heavily criticized. Fuck, just Google Ellen Usain Bolt Picture. I'm really sorry, but it seems like people are either stupider than before or simply believe everything they hear. People need to learn to filter and ask questions.
WRT Sean Murray, yeah the whole 2 people meeting was a "Holy shit" moment I'm sure. However, they did technically meet. He mentioned that was possible. He also mentioned it was NOT a multiplayer game. This is a case of people blowing up the Internet and burying the person talking. It would have been very easy to dig deeper, get more information, but people don't do that, they just run with what they perceive the quote to be.
Case in point is the "$20,000 Space Door". I already SHOWED people here how that could be done for less than $500, but FUCK ME, right???!!! That is a $20,000 space door because it supports your agenda, not because it's the truth, right?
As far as hiring people goes, whether it be his wife or not what does it matter? It's a privately-held company. Fuck, he hired his brother too!!! Again, this is simply a matter of people making more of an issue of something than what it actually is. Did you know that Mark Zuckerberg doesn't even have a degree? Or one he earned anyway. Isn't that what's great about America? You can start your own business and hire who you want? Do you feel that hiring an accomplished VP of Marketing would have achieved any different results? Probably not.
WRT P2W. Every game is P2W. They already said you can earn those same ships in-game. However, some will still say it's P2W. Whatever though, it's just the further dilution of the term. What will be very interesting is to see if they end up going REAL P2W like selling planets, systems, etc. So many other opportunities that could be so much more horribad than selling ships. Sorry to disappoint.
WRT delays, I can't make any excuses for him. You call it lying, I call it being wildly misinformed. I've already stated in the past that they should have gone an ED release formula instead of the all-or-nothing route. However, not my decision.
WRT group size, it probably is bigger than he expected. I've seen very efficient, small teams. In fact, smaller teams are easier to manage. However, I just don't think that was realistic. So why not ask him that? Has he commented on this since that original quote? Instead of just quoting shit out of the nether, why not take advantage of AMAs or whatever else and actually ask the question?
Also, you keep going on about these boat loads of money. Again, I said this yesterday, do some fucking math because you sound silly. People keep calling for forensic accountants to go in there, but it doesn't take any more than a grade 5 education and Google to actually figure out some numbers. Just ask here for a history of their staff. Someone linked it for me before. You know they are at $3 million a month right now, so just work backwards and figure out where they're at. It's not fucking rocket science.
Finally, he will definitely not deliver what he's been selling. Even if he did deliver what he said, there would ultimately be some who felt that he didn't deliver something. Plus, there will ALWAYS be the escape of "Yeah, but you said it would be delivered in 2013". So, no, it's impossible for him to deliver what he said. Also, it will be impossible to live up to the expectations that are being set, but that's not exclusive to SC.
As usual a pro SC person makes a topic wanting 'serious' responses, then when they dont like what they read they then try and 'educate' people why theyre wrong.
Its the age old story, when someone asks who you like (in a sporting event) or what do you think (in regards to any choice) they really dont give a shit what you think they are just looking for an opening to instill THEIR viewpoint on you. As demonstrated by the barrage of posts by the OP that is pretty clear here.
So this thread devolves into the same nonsense every SC thread devolves into. All the pertinent criticisms get discussed (even though there are so many enough critics around to hit them all) and the pro camp just tries and rebuts them with stuff they heard and havent seen.
Basically if someone went out and made a kickstarter and made claims even more grandiose than even Roberts made and it somehow got funded it would then be the 'job' of the white knights or that gae to say "hey its the most ambitious game ever'' as to why it in in perpetual development. The irony is the ONLY reason the SC white knights can even use that is the amount of money these guys have (allegedly) raised to make this thing. If they had 'only' 20 million then there would be other excuses.
The only 'success' this project has shown is the (alleged) ability to separate people from almost (allegedly)120 million bucks.
Thse allegedly are exactly why they should at least open their books to an independent auditor to show they have actually raised that amount of money and it hanst just turned into a tool to continue to raise more legit money as well as give them something to crow about. Because I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that spread sheet and the daily figures they claim are being brought in on a regular basis. They have obviosuly gotten a lot of money from people but the amount of hype (overall) the number of people playing the alpha, the number of people interested in their gamescon stream just doesnt, to me, show a game that has nearly enough support to garner that much revenue. Obviously cant be proven but an independent audit would certainly shed some light onto the subject.
But that is another great irony, if the white knights suddenly found out they had 'only' raised 50 million dollars and had spent it all and this was all they had to show for it, the hopes and dreams of even the staunchest supporter would be crushed.
As usual a pro SC person makes a topic wanting 'serious' responses, then when they dont like what they read they then try and 'educate' people why theyre wrong.
Its the age old story, when someone asks who you like (in a sporting event) or what do you think (in regards to any choice) they really dont give a shit what you think they are just looking for an opening to instill THEIR viewpoint on you. As demonstrated by the barrage of posts by the OP that is pretty clear here.
So this thread devolves into the same nonsense every SC thread devolves into. All the pertinent criticisms get discussed (even though there are so many enough critics around to hit them all) and the pro camp just tries and rebuts them with stuff they heard and havent seen.
Basically if someone went out and made a kickstarter and made claims even more grandiose than even Roberts made and it somehow got funded it would then be the 'job' of the white knights or that gae to say "hey its the most ambitious game ever'' as to why it in in perpetual development. The irony is the ONLY reason the SC white knights can even use that is the amount of money these guys have (allegedly) raised to make this thing. If they had 'only' 20 million then there would be other excuses.
The only 'success' this project has shown is the (alleged) ability to separate people from almost (allegedly)120 million bucks.
Thse allegedly are exactly why they should at least open their books to an independent auditor to show they have actually raised that amount of money and it hanst just turned into a tool to continue to raise more legit money as well as give them something to crow about. Because I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that spread sheet and the daily figures they claim are being brought in on a regular basis. They have obviosuly gotten a lot of money from people but the amount of hype (overall) the number of people playing the alpha, the number of people interested in their gamescon stream just doesnt, to me, show a game that has nearly enough support to garner that much revenue. Obviously cant be proven but an independent audit would certainly shed some light onto the subject.
But that is another great irony, if the white knights suddenly found out they had 'only' raised 50 million dollars and had spent it all and this was all they had to show for it, the hopes and dreams of even the staunchest supporter would be crushed.
Is there a point somewhere in this long pompous rhetoric ?
You do not have to write walls of text just to repeat the same monotonous stuff you're repeating again and again and again and again... like a broken record.
Some of them sound quite reasonable, and I understand why many of you would want to see a finished project to actually believe in it. Especially if you're not invested in the project and you're not following it closely - which I think it necessary to make it plausible for anyone to believe in something this ambitious.
Asking for open books is pretty ludicrous. I doubt there's a single big budget project in the world where an open book would be a great idea to expose to the public. Imagine dealing with that level of ignorance - trying to justify every single expense - tiny and big - to people with absolutely no concept of what it takes to run a day-to-day business, putting out fires and making snap decisions.
I admit, I did expect a lot of unreasonable demands - but I think the majority of you have presented scepticism on a very understandable level.
However, with that said, I really do think a lot of detractors need to educate themselves about the project - or simply stop talking about it as if they had educated themselves. It's pretty obvious that a lot of the scepticism is based on simply not following the project closely - and you're replacing "blanks" with negative assumption.
This is very common reaction - and it's true for myself in many other projects. I mean, we can't spend all our time reading every little detail or reason for something being not to our liking.
It just so happens that I've followed Star Citizen very, very closely - and I've been listening to the developers giving very good reasons for a lot of the things that aren't working as they should at this point - and they're extremely upfront about their development schedules, so stuff like why Star Marine was delayed - and why some parts are being given priority while other parts are seemingly ignored in terms of exposure - is well documented, if you really care to know about.
But I understand. People would rather stick to their own fabricated version of truth than actually correct themselves and read up on the project.
For those people, I strongly advise patience - and let the finished - or near-finished - product speak for itself.
Do note that I don't expect many detractors will accept this - and I know this cycle of ignorance will continue until the game is released, and for a handful - even long after that.
Still, I think you all for contributing.
Dude, they sell ships for thousands of dollars. If this was a finished product and it had that type of cash shop wouldn't that bother you?
And don't tell me that this is just a donation thing... if those ships are not P2W there are going to be some very, very pissed off whales.
You seem to be saying that anyone who follows this mess closely couldn't help but love it... I beg to differ. I see something really wrong happening here. The kind of wrong that gets people up in arms in other games when they have whale item's 1/10th or 1/50th of the cost. Why should the greediest game of them all get a free pass?
I'm with you when it comes to the obscene prices.
Real World Combat Pilots current and retired absolutely love these types of games and no matter how good some one thinks they are, how many hours they spend in game, these guys will hand you your ass.
IMHO there are going to be a lot of pissed off whales.
Is there a point somewhere in this long pompous rhetoric ?
You do not have to write walls of text just to repeat the same monotonous stuff you're repeating again and again and again and again... like a broken record.
Be direct: SC is a scam and CR is a scammer.
LMAO so ironic its always the white knights using the words scam and scammer.
I would say Roberts is a victim of his own imagination. He says things he might possibly think he can do and then as he gains in confidence (and funds) he most definitely thinks he can do them. Then as things head south he starts to realize it might not be possible so he tries anything and everything to make it work. I suspect he truly wants(ed) to make something like he described. I dont think he dreamed he would make the money he has (even if its not close to 120 million it still a lot)
I also dont think he is anything more than an idea guy with little to zero ability in actually MAKING a product. He is a guy who can daydream and think of a lot of stuff then if asked him to make it he cant. He is also not a great money guy, thats obvious. But ironically like I said he has plenty of people around him that can hide it and its uses very well.
The problems start with him and they spiral out and the issues compound on themselves. Whether that is a broken record or not whatever. Its what is going on and only a very few people cant admit that to themselves.
As usual a pro SC person makes a topic wanting 'serious' responses, then when they dont like what they read they then try and 'educate' people why theyre wrong.
Its the age old story, when someone asks who you like (in a sporting event) or what do you think (in regards to any choice) they really dont give a shit what you think they are just looking for an opening to instill THEIR viewpoint on you. As demonstrated by the barrage of posts by the OP that is pretty clear here.
So this thread devolves into the same nonsense every SC thread devolves into. All the pertinent criticisms get discussed (even though there are so many enough critics around to hit them all) and the pro camp just tries and rebuts them with stuff they heard and havent seen.
Basically if someone went out and made a kickstarter and made claims even more grandiose than even Roberts made and it somehow got funded it would then be the 'job' of the white knights or that gae to say "hey its the most ambitious game ever'' as to why it in in perpetual development. The irony is the ONLY reason the SC white knights can even use that is the amount of money these guys have (allegedly) raised to make this thing. If they had 'only' 20 million then there would be other excuses.
The only 'success' this project has shown is the (alleged) ability to separate people from almost (allegedly)120 million bucks.
Thse allegedly are exactly why they should at least open their books to an independent auditor to show they have actually raised that amount of money and it hanst just turned into a tool to continue to raise more legit money as well as give them something to crow about. Because I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that spread sheet and the daily figures they claim are being brought in on a regular basis. They have obviosuly gotten a lot of money from people but the amount of hype (overall) the number of people playing the alpha, the number of people interested in their gamescon stream just doesnt, to me, show a game that has nearly enough support to garner that much revenue. Obviously cant be proven but an independent audit would certainly shed some light onto the subject.
But that is another great irony, if the white knights suddenly found out they had 'only' raised 50 million dollars and had spent it all and this was all they had to show for it, the hopes and dreams of even the staunchest supporter would be crushed.
Is there a point somewhere in this long pompous rhetoric ?
You do not have to write walls of text just to repeat the same monotonous stuff you're repeating again and again and again and again... like a broken record.
Be direct: SC is a scam and CR is a scammer.
OOh the scandals.... Did they really raise that much money and do they really have that many backers? Given the history of how they have presented themselves. This is very much a valid question. One that will never be answered though.
I'll ask why? Why stop selling ships? If I hired a janitor, I'm not going to have him helping my development team make some software, I'm probably going to have him cleaning the shitter. Same deal, if I hire some artists for making ship models, they should be doing that. If I have a sales staff, I expect they will be selling. The development team are the ones making the game. What would you have artists or sales staff or marketing staff do?
So in your world an artist who makes ship models can only make ship models? They can not work on other game art assets? Space stations, Planetary buildings, creatures, other vehicles besides sellable ships, they cant do that kind of stuff?
Who are you to comment on my world? Did you really take than away from what I said? Let me clear that up. If I hired some artists to immediately contribute to the ongoing funding (making money) and I hired a separate group of artists to do game art, then why would I move them over to doing game art? You're acting as though it's game art that is hold things up. Is that the case? If it is, please point me in the direction because my understanding is that there are way more complicated issues delaying the game than art assets. No?
I was merely commenting on your comment that a janitor can only clean the toilet and nothing else. I'm sorry, I did not realize you had inside information from CIG that they hired artists to do ongoing funding and then a separate set of artists to do game art. It would seem the game art guys are not working at capacity since we are 4 years in and only seeing a few actual game assets besides ships.
Also, YOU specifically asked "What would you have artists or sales staff or marketing staff do?" and I gave you a perfectly rational answer. If you dont want an answer, dont ask the question.
Listen, I am sure you understood the analogy. I really don't think that you're stupid enough to take some thing so literally. Unfortunately there seems to be too much of that going on. If you'd like me to get literal about stuff and just sound stupid, go and see my response to SEANCAD about sticking a knife in his eye and how he really can't SAY it would hurt unless he actually did it. Otherwise, it's just using some stuff that you know to make an informed decision.
I gave you a response to your long post, probably just a waste of my time, but if you'd rather I act like I'm mentally challenged and take ever single thing I hear literally, then I'll go ahead and do that, although I think that even a mentally challenged person would be able to understand simple analogies and examples without being literal. That being said, if there was more intelligent conversation surrounding the topic then I'm sure the Internet would be a better place. Unfortunately that's not the case.
The question is, lets assume they "sit" on $200 million in a year or two. Where will that money go? Will they expand the goals even more, will it simply vanish into their pockets, will the reduce various prices to adjust for not needing that money?
While they do have ongoing costs that have to be paid from this, it's not really possible to say either way until the game is released. And as long as they *do* increase the goals they are saying "we can do this with the money we have" - unless you say they are betting on future income. But even that would mean: How will they pay future bills if that money is already planned for today so to say?
Another thing to consider: Even if everything they ever promised is in the game at that point (which as pointed out by others, basically no company ever managed), they would have made another $85 million, nearly twice of today.
The main problem that i see is that most things are still called "pledge". The word "store" is only at the navigation at the bottom i think, and i didn't see a single "buy" or "pay" button, only "add to cart" and "checkout". Of course i do not have an account and no intention of pleding as of now, so maybe there would have been one.
As a business, they can take any money they want (more or less..), but if you are *asking* for money, it gets hairy. That why so many people have issues with SC.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
The question is, lets assume they "sit" on $200 million in a year or two. Where will that money go? Will they expand the goals even more, will it simply vanish into their pockets, will the reduce various prices to adjust for not needing that money?
While they do have ongoing costs that have to be paid from this, it's not really possible to say either way until the game is released. And as long as they *do* increase the goals they are saying "we can do this with the money we have" - unless you say they are betting on future income. But even that would mean: How will they pay future bills if that money is already planned for today so to say?
Another thing to consider: Even if everything they ever promised is in the game at that point (which as pointed out by others, basically no company ever managed), they would have made another $85 million, nearly twice of today.
The main problem that i see is that most things are still called "pledge". The word "store" is only at the navigation at the bottom i think, and i didn't see a single "buy" or "pay" button, only "add to cart" and "checkout". Of course i do not have an account and no intention of pleding as of now, so maybe there would have been one.
As a business, they can take any money they want (more or less..), but if you are *asking* for money, it gets hairy. That why so many people have issues with SC.
It would probably take a miracle to get to $200 million in a year or two. The honeymoon is over. Honestly, I don't see them being able to generate enough monthly revenue to even maintain their staff, so they'll be dipping into whatever funds they've already accumulated. If they haven't released in 2 more years then they might as put it in the ground, cuz it'll be dead.
That being said, if they DID happen to make $200 million in the next couple years and it still wasn't released, then Sandi gets to keep her job FOR SURE!! Also, I think it would be foolish to think that they wouldn't require additional funds to extend the game. Right now that's like betting on futures. I'm sure they're hoping that SQ42 episodes will help out there. Either way, I don't really see any pools filled with cash. That is unless they cut their staff in half.
If they would quit spouting out false deadlines in order to stir hype. Then I wouldn't be so critical. For Example SQ42 is still scheduled to be released in 2016. Star Marine was scheduled to be released about a year ago. Why would you create false deadlines you know that cannot be attained. Better yet here we are 4 months away from 2017 and when will they tell us that SQ42 isn't going to make the deadline and how many years will be added to that?
I'll give them 6 months room for error with this because anything else is just them being full of crap. But its already determined that the Star Marine quote was Chris full of crap trying to hype the game. And I really don't think the SQ42 thing is any different but we shall see.
Comments
CIG is just as much your leader, since it seems that you can't resist posting into SC threads just as much, or more, than he does. So praise be thy lord and savior!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I don't follow them - I follow the development of the game.
I'm not sure you understand the concept of a leader.
If there's a leader in play here - it's probably that little voice in your head that's telling you to be against something you don't understand for reasons you can't make clear to others
The only reason I paid for SC is because I want to support its development and I have no problem taking a chance on something so bold and ambitious by developers so proven.
That said, I do buy the occasional game before I should. I'm human, what can I say
Most of the so-called "haters" here do not think the game is a scam or that Chris set out to deceive anyone. The game will launch and in a manner of speaking it already has. What many of us have is frustration over the gaming industry and how it gets away with totally unethical business practices. Game designers like Chris Roberts and Sean Murray can say anything about their games and its perfectly ok.
Sean Murray specifically said they would not charge for DLC on the day of No Mans Sky release and then 8 days later reversed that decision. He said players could find one another in the game but said it was very unlikely and then on launch day 2 players find the same spot and can not see each other. The truth is there are no player models in the game, the player is just an invisible camera that shows the player what he sees so there is no way 2 people could ever see each other in this game and yet how many times did he say or infer that this was possible?
Its the same thing with Chris Roberts, he has said so many things from 2012 to the end of 2015 that there is no way possible it will all EVER make it into the game. Then add in all the controversy like the $20,000 space doors or paying a wanna-be actress who lied about having a business degree, to be the marketing person because she is your wife? What about advertising Star Marine footage for all of 2015 in order to draw up sales and then saying "Its in there" simply because you can shoot a gun?
Think about all the people who might have donated to Star Citizen based on things that Chris said:
1. Pay to Win
The plan is to support Star Citizen in a similar fashion to Guild Wars 2. You buy the base game, get the single player Squadron 42 campaign and access to the Star Citizen universe, and then have the option to buy cosmetic and other non-balance-altering items for either real money or the in-game currency you earn. Oct-2012
Yet you can now buy the biggest/baddest ships and dominate any player not willing to throw hundreds of dollars into the game
2. Concerning the delay of the game because of stretch goals
"... we don’t commit to adding features that would hold up the game’s ability to go “live” in a fully functional state," Sept-2013
Yet he did and never did we see an option that a certain stretch goal would delay the game.
3. My personal favorite
The group that put together the tech base and did all the research was less than 10 people. We’re going to ramp up to a much bigger group of people. I don’t want to have a ridiculous group of 300 or 400 people," Oct-2012
I could go on and on and show you quote after quote from Chris that have turned out to be completely false or show a complete lack of project management ability but what is the point. The game will come out eventually, Chris and his top people will make boat loads of money, as they have been doing, and when it finally releases, the expectations will have been so high that it will come off exactly as No Mans Sky did.
Chris has some fantastic ideas and wants to make the game many of us want, I dont doubt that. What I doubt is his ability to deliver. He will deliver something but will he deliver that game he has been selling???
MAGA
Who are you to comment on my world? Did you really take than away from what I said? Let me clear that up. If I hired some artists to immediately contribute to the ongoing funding (making money) and I hired a separate group of artists to do game art, then why would I move them over to doing game art? You're acting as though it's game art that is hold things up. Is that the case? If it is, please point me in the direction because my understanding is that there are way more complicated issues delaying the game than art assets. No?
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I was merely commenting on your comment that a janitor can only clean the toilet and nothing else. I'm sorry, I did not realize you had inside information from CIG that they hired artists to do ongoing funding and then a separate set of artists to do game art. It would seem the game art guys are not working at capacity since we are 4 years in and only seeing a few actual game assets besides ships.
Also, YOU specifically asked "What would you have artists or sales staff or marketing staff do?" and I gave you a perfectly rational answer. If you dont want an answer, dont ask the question.
RSI has exactly ZERO games under their belt. Sure they have individuals that have made other games, some of them them even successful ones. But the TEAM working on SC is unproven. I dont know if you have a background in software development, but i would NEVER let a team work on something this size AND complexity unless they had worked together on something as a team and proven that the TEAM can deliver.
This was why I on page two called for them to make a fully FINISHED and working slice before I can start even beliving it is possible for them to deliver on something the scpoe and complexity of the full project.
First, show me a developer and I'll dig up some quotes they made which were untrue. Fuck, show me ANYBODY and I'll dig up some quotes that are untrue. Great thing about the Internet is that nobody can say anything or do anything without being heavily criticized. Fuck, just Google Ellen Usain Bolt Picture. I'm really sorry, but it seems like people are either stupider than before or simply believe everything they hear. People need to learn to filter and ask questions.
WRT Sean Murray, yeah the whole 2 people meeting was a "Holy shit" moment I'm sure. However, they did technically meet. He mentioned that was possible. He also mentioned it was NOT a multiplayer game. This is a case of people blowing up the Internet and burying the person talking. It would have been very easy to dig deeper, get more information, but people don't do that, they just run with what they perceive the quote to be.
Case in point is the "$20,000 Space Door". I already SHOWED people here how that could be done for less than $500, but FUCK ME, right???!!! That is a $20,000 space door because it supports your agenda, not because it's the truth, right?
As far as hiring people goes, whether it be his wife or not what does it matter? It's a privately-held company. Fuck, he hired his brother too!!! Again, this is simply a matter of people making more of an issue of something than what it actually is. Did you know that Mark Zuckerberg doesn't even have a degree? Or one he earned anyway. Isn't that what's great about America? You can start your own business and hire who you want? Do you feel that hiring an accomplished VP of Marketing would have achieved any different results? Probably not.
WRT P2W. Every game is P2W. They already said you can earn those same ships in-game. However, some will still say it's P2W. Whatever though, it's just the further dilution of the term. What will be very interesting is to see if they end up going REAL P2W like selling planets, systems, etc. So many other opportunities that could be so much more horribad than selling ships. Sorry to disappoint.
WRT delays, I can't make any excuses for him. You call it lying, I call it being wildly misinformed. I've already stated in the past that they should have gone an ED release formula instead of the all-or-nothing route. However, not my decision.
WRT group size, it probably is bigger than he expected. I've seen very efficient, small teams. In fact, smaller teams are easier to manage. However, I just don't think that was realistic. So why not ask him that? Has he commented on this since that original quote? Instead of just quoting shit out of the nether, why not take advantage of AMAs or whatever else and actually ask the question?
Also, you keep going on about these boat loads of money. Again, I said this yesterday, do some fucking math because you sound silly. People keep calling for forensic accountants to go in there, but it doesn't take any more than a grade 5 education and Google to actually figure out some numbers. Just ask here for a history of their staff. Someone linked it for me before. You know they are at $3 million a month right now, so just work backwards and figure out where they're at. It's not fucking rocket science.
Finally, he will definitely not deliver what he's been selling. Even if he did deliver what he said, there would ultimately be some who felt that he didn't deliver something. Plus, there will ALWAYS be the escape of "Yeah, but you said it would be delivered in 2013". So, no, it's impossible for him to deliver what he said. Also, it will be impossible to live up to the expectations that are being set, but that's not exclusive to SC.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Its the age old story, when someone asks who you like (in a sporting event) or what do you think (in regards to any choice) they really dont give a shit what you think they are just looking for an opening to instill THEIR viewpoint on you. As demonstrated by the barrage of posts by the OP that is pretty clear here.
So this thread devolves into the same nonsense every SC thread devolves into. All the pertinent criticisms get discussed (even though there are so many enough critics around to hit them all) and the pro camp just tries and rebuts them with stuff they heard and havent seen.
Basically if someone went out and made a kickstarter and made claims even more grandiose than even Roberts made and it somehow got funded it would then be the 'job' of the white knights or that gae to say "hey its the most ambitious game ever'' as to why it in in perpetual development. The irony is the ONLY reason the SC white knights can even use that is the amount of money these guys have (allegedly) raised to make this thing. If they had 'only' 20 million then there would be other excuses.
The only 'success' this project has shown is the (alleged) ability to separate people from almost (allegedly)120 million bucks.
Thse allegedly are exactly why they should at least open their books to an independent auditor to show they have actually raised that amount of money and it hanst just turned into a tool to continue to raise more legit money as well as give them something to crow about. Because I find it EXTREMELY difficult to believe that spread sheet and the daily figures they claim are being brought in on a regular basis. They have obviosuly gotten a lot of money from people but the amount of hype (overall) the number of people playing the alpha, the number of people interested in their gamescon stream just doesnt, to me, show a game that has nearly enough support to garner that much revenue. Obviously cant be proven but an independent audit would certainly shed some light onto the subject.
But that is another great irony, if the white knights suddenly found out they had 'only' raised 50 million dollars and had spent it all and this was all they had to show for it, the hopes and dreams of even the staunchest supporter would be crushed.
You do not have to write walls of text just to repeat the same monotonous stuff you're repeating again and again and again and again... like a broken record.
Be direct: SC is a scam and CR is a scammer.
Real World Combat Pilots current and retired absolutely love these types of games and no matter how good some one thinks they are, how many hours they spend in game, these guys will hand you your ass.
IMHO there are going to be a lot of pissed off whales.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I would say Roberts is a victim of his own imagination. He says things he might possibly think he can do and then as he gains in confidence (and funds) he most definitely thinks he can do them. Then as things head south he starts to realize it might not be possible so he tries anything and everything to make it work. I suspect he truly wants(ed) to make something like he described. I dont think he dreamed he would make the money he has (even if its not close to 120 million it still a lot)
I also dont think he is anything more than an idea guy with little to zero ability in actually MAKING a product. He is a guy who can daydream and think of a lot of stuff then if asked him to make it he cant. He is also not a great money guy, thats obvious. But ironically like I said he has plenty of people around him that can hide it and its uses very well.
The problems start with him and they spiral out and the issues compound on themselves. Whether that is a broken record or not whatever. Its what is going on and only a very few people cant admit that to themselves.
Listen, I am sure you understood the analogy. I really don't think that you're stupid enough to take some thing so literally. Unfortunately there seems to be too much of that going on. If you'd like me to get literal about stuff and just sound stupid, go and see my response to SEANCAD about sticking a knife in his eye and how he really can't SAY it would hurt unless he actually did it. Otherwise, it's just using some stuff that you know to make an informed decision.
I gave you a response to your long post, probably just a waste of my time, but if you'd rather I act like I'm mentally challenged and take ever single thing I hear literally, then I'll go ahead and do that, although I think that even a mentally challenged person would be able to understand simple analogies and examples without being literal. That being said, if there was more intelligent conversation surrounding the topic then I'm sure the Internet would be a better place. Unfortunately that's not the case.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
While they do have ongoing costs that have to be paid from this, it's not really possible to say either way until the game is released. And as long as they *do* increase the goals they are saying "we can do this with the money we have" - unless you say they are betting on future income. But even that would mean: How will they pay future bills if that money is already planned for today so to say?
Another thing to consider: Even if everything they ever promised is in the game at that point (which as pointed out by others, basically no company ever managed), they would have made another $85 million, nearly twice of today.
The main problem that i see is that most things are still called "pledge". The word "store" is only at the navigation at the bottom i think, and i didn't see a single "buy" or "pay" button, only "add to cart" and "checkout". Of course i do not have an account and no intention of pleding as of now, so maybe there would have been one.
As a business, they can take any money they want (more or less..), but if you are *asking* for money, it gets hairy. That why so many people have issues with SC.
I'll wait to the day's end when the moon is high
And then I'll rise with the tide with a lust for life, I'll
Amass an army, and we'll harness a horde
And then we'll limp across the land until we stand at the shore
It would probably take a miracle to get to $200 million in a year or two. The honeymoon is over. Honestly, I don't see them being able to generate enough monthly revenue to even maintain their staff, so they'll be dipping into whatever funds they've already accumulated. If they haven't released in 2 more years then they might as put it in the ground, cuz it'll be dead.
That being said, if they DID happen to make $200 million in the next couple years and it still wasn't released, then Sandi gets to keep her job FOR SURE!! Also, I think it would be foolish to think that they wouldn't require additional funds to extend the game. Right now that's like betting on futures. I'm sure they're hoping that SQ42 episodes will help out there. Either way, I don't really see any pools filled with cash. That is unless they cut their staff in half.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Keep in mind:
I'll give them 6 months room for error with this because anything else is just them being full of crap. But its already determined that the Star Marine quote was Chris full of crap trying to hype the game. And I really don't think the SQ42 thing is any different but we shall see.