Way back in the original SWG me and my buddies had a band that played in a cantina. Players would come and listen in for the stat restore or whatever it was you got. Met some cool people that way.
We never did leave that town but stayed there almost our whole game lives playing for everyone.
I still miss that cantina in some hole-in-the-wall town.
Is that the kind of stuff you mean?
**edit for spelling
Hanging out in cantinas while waiting for buffs was good fun. They really did a great job with submersion. I had a doctor and would wait at the hospital to heal mind wounds for players, good conversations, good times.
Well you would not have got far, Docs heal Health and Action wounds.
Must say Ents & Doc mechanics I really enjoyed. I didn't play one myself I was a combat medic, but the whole play style revolving around just buffing the combatants.
Oops, your right. :awesome:
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Archeage is chock-full of those kinds of player interactions, both good and bad. Also, Axehilt is correct, and no, he's not talking about combat grouping. With the advent of world quests in WoW there's been a lot of interaction among random players coming across the same world quest areas and objectives. Most of the things you mentioned in your op:
I kind of miss being able to impact other players and impacted by them. You don't get buffs, saving heals or rezzes often. Even the bad things like being trained or blown up by trick chest.
are the kinds of things that are happening now. People tossing buffs on other random players, people rezzing other players who bit the dust during an encounter, healers spreading heals around to those who are close to biting the dust. Heck, I've even been trained on several times when someone comes running by with 6 mobs on them and the mobs pass through my consecration AoE and aggro on me.
So... one game out of... 500+, considering "modern" as post-WoW? Heck, the industry is in great hands.
Well as other ppl said there are games, sadly not much the one i can think is archeage as others said, but we must consider that archeage has x50 the interaction u described so maybe that is good.And really i think most ppl here dont want 100 games like these just 1-2 games if they will appear will be enouph for me.
The stability of that behavior is entirely hinged upon the flow of content in a game like WoW though because once people have participated in the world events, the inclination to interact with others to complete said events again diminishes because they have already been rewarded for the scripted content...That's not something that the world activities in games like WoW provide with the only instances of such being the scripted world events, which is more of a one-and-done activity than an ongoing one.
Incorrect. World quests are not a one and done thing, they are an on-going thing that people are doing every day...
One and one in terms of reward, people doing them "every day" is because of a rotating cast of people earning the rewards from them right now. I addressed this already.
Again incorrect. The world quests refresh every day. There is never a point where you're done with them. You can do every world quest on your map and you'll have more the next day, offering more rewards. I'll have just as many to do 3 months from now as I do today.
Those "world quests" are just dailies that players are grinding because it's the present content to give reward. When the game adds new content that will no longer be the case and they will move on to the next grind. And because it's a mostly rigid element, once they've ground the dailies for everything of value they will move on.
Even the gear you get for the rewards are going to not be worth as much as if you flip off to something else such as a raid to up your gear level.
Having just as many to do means nothing if the rewards are moot. I again already addressed this.
Again incorrect lol. There are rewards provided by world quests that will always have enough value that they'll be worth doing, regardless of what new content is added down the line in the expansion. They won't be moot. I've already addressed this.
Avoiding the bad player interactions are what has lead to many of the changes. You had players sitting in one spot and coming from one guild and not allowing other people who pay to play the same game to access the dungeon because there were no other dungeons with that same loot. So when you change that you take away another point of interaction.
Every decision that removed interaction came about by the complaints about the bad form of interaction. Human beings are responsible the ones who cannot control their greed, pettiness and ugliness.
So... one game out of... 500+, considering "modern" as post-WoW? Heck, the industry is in great hands.
The number of MMORPGs which pass the OP's criteria which have been mentioned in this thread is two. The number of MMORPGs which fail the OP's criteria which have been mentioned in this thread is zero.
Work on establishing a real problem first. (If you want to hunt imaginary demons, the Demon Hunter is now a playable class in WOW.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I've never played an mmorpg where i didn't get drive by heals or buffs or the occasional rez from someone who happened to be there. I'm not entirely sure what the op is taking about.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The stability of that behavior is entirely hinged upon the flow of content in a game like WoW though because once people have participated in the world events, the inclination to interact with others to complete said events again diminishes because they have already been rewarded for the scripted content...That's not something that the world activities in games like WoW provide with the only instances of such being the scripted world events, which is more of a one-and-done activity than an ongoing one.
Incorrect. World quests are not a one and done thing, they are an on-going thing that people are doing every day...
One and one in terms of reward, people doing them "every day" is because of a rotating cast of people earning the rewards from them right now. I addressed this already.
Again incorrect. The world quests refresh every day. There is never a point where you're done with them. You can do every world quest on your map and you'll have more the next day, offering more rewards. I'll have just as many to do 3 months from now as I do today.
Those "world quests" are just dailies that players are grinding because it's the present content to give reward. When the game adds new content that will no longer be the case and they will move on to the next grind. And because it's a mostly rigid element, once they've ground the dailies for everything of value they will move on.
Even the gear you get for the rewards are going to not be worth as much as if you flip off to something else such as a raid to up your gear level.
Having just as many to do means nothing if the rewards are moot. I again already addressed this.
Again incorrect lol. There are rewards provided by world quests that will always have enough value that they'll be worth doing, regardless of what new content is added down the line in the expansion. They won't be moot. I've already addressed this.
No you have not, you have made a claim that historically WoW has not shown to be true. Every expansion they have generated new tiers of content that out-mode previous tiers. This is much like how the Outlands used to be a social player hub and people would regularly come in conflict with each-other because quests out there demanded control of certain territory.
The reality is that this is just this expansion's version of dailies and the rewards are only relevant because they cater to the present limits of the game. Subsequent changes will stop that from being true much like past changes have stopped all the previous content from being particularly relevant. Hell, most of what I mentioned about Outlands is outright skippable now.
In fact you can point out this is an emphasis of this because the only place player interactivity is to be found is within the finite space of those areas that the world quests are to take place in, with most everything else lying empty. That means that WoW as a general rule does not have a reason nor support of player interactivity, and it's only the fact that they are congregated together to do one thing and be done with each-other that they are interacting at all. That's closer to zerging PvE content than anything else and does nothing for the fact that in the majority of the game world such interactivity is not prevalent because it's not a natively supported feature.
So my turn to say incorrect, as you are presently just defending your hobby from criticism without any real accuracy to your claims.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Lol @ Deivos. I love how you keep moving the goal post rather than admit that you were wrong. Here's a summary of the thread:
OP - "I miss player interactions such as x, y, and z in mmo's" Axehilt - "Actually, x ,y, and z have been happening in WoW" Deivos - "No it hasn't. That's just an anecdotal example of you doing something" Me - "Actually, that stuff has been pretty commonplace with the world quest system" Deivos - "But it's only a one and done thing" Me - "No it's an on-going thing that people will be doing regularly" Deivos - "No it isn't, that's just different people rotating through" Me - "It really isn't, the same people will be doing x, y, and z for a while because of the rewards" Deivos - "But, but, but it's only in certain areas!"
OP talked about player interaction and Axe and I pointed out that it's happening and gave examples of it happening. Sorry that my facts got in the way of your little anti-WoW narrative.
Lol @ Deivos. I love how you keep moving the goal post rather than admit that you were wrong. Here's a summary of the thread:
OP - "I miss player interactions such as x, y, and z in mmo's" Axehilt - "Actually, x ,y, and z have been happening in WoW" Deivos - "No it hasn't. That's just an anecdotal example of you doing something" Me - "Actually, that stuff has been pretty commonplace with the world quest system" Deivos - "But it's only a one and done thing" Me - "No it's an on-going thing that people will be doing regularly" Deivos - "No it isn't, that's just different people rotating through" Me - "It really isn't, the same people will be doing x, y, and z for a while because of the rewards" Deivos - "But, but, but it's only in certain areas!"
OP talked about player interaction and Axe and I pointed out that it's happening and gave examples of it happening. Sorry that my facts got in the way of your little anti-WoW narrative.
Actually, if we go back to my first post we see that I stated an individual's anecdotal claims are not evidence of a broad event. You failed to change that since the only thing you've provided so far is anecdotal claims, so it has not needed to be brought up again and I instead chose to address your claims about WoW as you brought them up.
Your claims that stuff is prevalent in no way invalidates the one-and-done point either, as the situation very much remains that the people play for the reward(s) and then they are done (like there is little to no reason to repeat the hippogriff quest multiple times when you get one, or the ancient elder god monster world event). Much less so the case than many of those things likely aren't part of the dailies you are talking about. Hence the point that people will just be rotating through.
You claiming it's an ongoing thing just highlighted the fact you were literally just talking about dailies and rep grinding quests as we've seen in previous expansions, which immediately shot your argument in the foot because the quests you are talking about turned out to be the grind quests that serves as filler for the game. This was emphasized even further by the fact that these quests only appear in the new zone, and we see that they only are available at max level and in the new Legion zones, meaning the entire rest of the game is devoid of such (and as I pointed out with the historical trend, such as outmoded content like the Outlands which did similar before, we can make an educated guess as to where this content is headed).
If we want to talk about moving goalposts we could simply note how from your first response you have been backpedaling with this defense with each point made. I also talked about Archeage and GW2, but since that's not the focus of the thing you love and rode in to defend, I guess you forgot about that.
I've even in other threads "defended" WoW and been the one to point out facts about it's game world and mechanics (in a recent post to Nariu I did so actually in a conversation where I brought up the presence of WoW having an open persistent world still and the Legion expansion adding more content to the freeform multiplayer aspect of the game and expanding the open world space further, which is an iconic characteristic of MMOs). So that shoots your anti-WoW bullshit down.
Your opinion (no "facts" in sight) is not sufficient evidence of anything other than your opinion, and the same applies to Axe's provided opinion. The facts certainly are what they are, but you seem none too fond of acknowledging that.
Post edited by Deivos on
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Your claims that stuff is prevalent in no way invalidates the one-and-done point either, as the situation very much remains that the people play for the reward(s) and then they are done (like there is little to no reason to repeat the hippogriff quest multiple times when you get one, or the ancient elder god monster world event). Much less so the case than many of those things likely aren't part of the dailies you are talking about. Hence the point that people will just be rotating through.
I get that you don't understand the world quest system since you don't play the game obviously. What i don't get is why you completely ignore every explanation I've given you of the system. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try once more. If you still want to stick your head in the sand, then so be it.
Here are some things that world quests reward players with, and why they will be a continuous source of content throughout the expansion.
- Gold: Gold is always in demand. There's never a point where people won't be looking to make more gold. Some of the world quests give a pretty large sum of gold and will therefore be sought out by players for a long time to come.
- Profession materials (rare): World quests are currently the main source for certain rare profession materials, such as Felwort for herbalism. You cannot pick this herb in the wild. There is a rare chance for it to be gathered with another herb I believe, but for the most part, world quests are the only way to get this herb.
- Artifact power: Many world quests give artifact power which is used to advance your artifact weapon skill tree. A single weapon takes a huge amount of artifact power to complete. Once a person has completed one weapon, likely taking months to do so, they will then be working on artifact weapons for their other specs.
So again, world quests are not a one and done thing. There will always be a need for rare profession materials throughout the expansion for example. I'm not going to a do a world quest for Felwort once and be done with it. I'm going to do a Felwort world quest every time I see one pop on my map. For the high value gold quests it will be the same thing. When people open their maps to see which world quests are available for that day, you can bet that people will be flocking to the ones that reward a lot of money.
And artifact weapons are a Legion thing and part of the present loot tier, which falls right back to my prior statement about the inevitability of outmoded gameplay. If you are a veteran of the game I know you are either sitting on a bunch of prior equivalent items from expansions past in your bank or gotten rid of them due to the cyclical nature of that content.
Profession materials and gold are both examples of things people have ground in many ways in WoW over the years as well. Garrisons are a notable example of that.
It's amazing how blatantly you try to bullshit here as well, as the claim you just made ignores this entire paragraph;
"You claiming it's an ongoing thing just highlighted the fact you were literally just talking about dailies and rep grinding quests as we've seen in previous expansions, which immediately shot your argument in the foot because the quests you are talking about turned out to be the grind quests that serves as filler for the game. This was emphasized even further by the fact that these quests only appear in the new zone, and we see that they only are available at max level and in the new Legion zones, meaning the entire rest of the game is devoid of such (and as I pointed out with the historical trend, such as outmoded content like the Outlands which did similar before, we can make an educated guess as to where this content is headed)."
That addresses exactly what world quests are.
But that doesn't stand convenient to the narrative you are trying to build and you'd rather attempt to lie on a forum where anyone that's not blind can still read the post right above yours to see that what you just claimed is not even remotely true.
So again, everything you just said is based on anecdote as well as talking of what is inevitably a temporary focus of the game. It's great you have such strong faith in something, but this is a horribly weak argument you've been building for no apparent reason.
EDIT: I also love that you quoted the paragraph that talks about world events instead of the one talking about world quests. I mean hell, I cited two world events in that paragraph even and called it out as a world event not quest (brought them up in particular because they are an accompanying major factor of the present collaborative gameplay in Legion through the zone exploration, but are an entirely finite element in terms of what rewards you expect to gain from them, meaning all the activity around them is bound to drop off). If you're going to claim I don't know what I'm talking about, you can at least take a moment to realize what it is you're talking about as you just messed up pretty damn hard there.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
I've never played an mmorpg where i didn't get drive by heals or buffs or the occasional rez from someone who happened to be there. I'm not entirely sure what the op is taking about.
Wizard101: No spells unless in battle. Star Trek Online: Ship to ship healing? Planets are instanced. Maybe one can heal on a star base, but why? Basically any MMO where instances abound and players are kept separate.
I haven't played a lot of new MMOs (any MMOs lately, actually), so my memory may be faulty. It seems that many new ones are geared to cut down drastically on player interactions, giving us lobbies (aka cities like NWN), dungeons for one player or group (aka instances), attack based heal abilities (ala GW2), or non-existent direct healing abilities like EQ and other MMOs had.
As far as WoW goes it may be this expansion but I haven't played it so how would I know. All my previous play throughs in WoW outside of maybe Vanilla were in that interactive. My last play was the MoP and a week of WoD. The only interactions I had were silent short groupings. The open world was dead. 42-75 or whatever I leved in the open world. I played a level 90 boosted character in WoD
This still does not going into interactions are limited in the genre as a whole. Hell some games don't even have real "assist abilities."
So we have basically Legion and Archeage in the mainstream of the genre that have interactions outside of combat grouping?
As far as WoW goes it may be this expansion but I haven't played it so how would I know. All my previous play throughs in WoW outside of maybe Vanilla were in that interactive. My last play was the MoP and a week of WoD. The only interactions I had were silent short groupings. The open world was dead. 42-75 or whatever I leved in the open world. I played a level 90 boosted character in WoD
This still does not going into interactions are limited in the genre as a whole. Hell some games don't even have real "assist abilities."
So we have basically Legion and Archeage in the mainstream of the genre that have interactions outside of combat grouping?
Don't get ahead of yourself. We've provided evidence (of two games) that what you say is wrong. You haven't provided any evidence (ie zero games) that what you say is right.
Until you establish that your claim isn't completely baseless nonsense, the burden is on you to provide evidence of games where these interactions don't happen.
If you ever start citing games where player interactions don't happen, only then will we worry about citing additional games where interactions happen.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In Everquest you could pay people for buffs was cool. Like hour long increase armour from paladins or the Enchanter buff for mana regeneration the most popular buff from what I recall. You could wait for a cleric to come rez you after you die to reduce the amount of experience you lost. Once they took away death penalties or made it less of penalty those type of interaction became unnecessary. When death became less of an issue most people rejoiced but now we are lamenting the fact that these removals lead to less interactions.
Food and drink now provide one with the buffs that other players used to grant. Now they are party based and so outside of groups you do not get them . Some games have them but even if someone runs by and gives you a buff people don't even thank you any more. So I guess all the lack of interaction has lead to ruder players too.
Hard pressed to look for interactions outside of groups.
As far as WoW goes it may be this expansion but I haven't played it so how would I know. All my previous play throughs in WoW outside of maybe Vanilla were in that interactive. My last play was the MoP and a week of WoD. The only interactions I had were silent short groupings. The open world was dead. 42-75 or whatever I leved in the open world. I played a level 90 boosted character in WoD
This still does not going into interactions are limited in the genre as a whole. Hell some games don't even have real "assist abilities."
So we have basically Legion and Archeage in the mainstream of the genre that have interactions outside of combat grouping?
Don't get ahead of yourself. We've provided evidence (of two games) that what you say is wrong. You haven't provided any evidence (ie zero games) that what you say is right.
Until you establish that your claim isn't completely baseless nonsense, the burden is on you to provide evidence of games where these interactions don't happen.
If you ever start citing games where player interactions don't happen, only then will we worry about citing additional games where interactions happen.
WoW when I played it WoD, Neverwinter, Rider of Icarus, Black Desert(granted didn't play long) , Tree of Savior (except kill stealing), Rift and just about every mainstream themepark I can think of. Now you name games where you have community interactions more than just combat grouping?
I kind of miss being able to impact other players and impacted by them. You don't get buffs, saving heals or rezzes often. Even the bad things like being trained or blown up by trick chest.
Seems like player interactions take a back seat to the streamlining of progression. You can do almost nothing to or for other players. I guess a lot of people just want to avoid assholes.
In ur first post almost all the interactions u described are based mostly on pvp so i guess any game that has open world pvp has these interactions like buffs saving healings rezzes etc and the bad things too so i may add aion,eso at pvp area at least and probably any single sandbox mmo that i dont even know or played.
. Now you name games where you have community interactions more than just combat grouping?
The two most recent MMORPG's I've played SWTOR and ESO. At least the interactions you pointed out in the OP...People always buff as well well as Rez each other in those games.
Post edited by Distopia on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Avoiding the bad player interactions are what has lead to many of the changes. You had players sitting in one spot and coming from one guild and not allowing other people who pay to play the same game to access the dungeon because there were no other dungeons with that same loot. So when you change that you take away another point of interaction.
Every decision that removed interaction came about by the complaints about the bad form of interaction. Human beings are responsible the ones who cannot control their greed, pettiness and ugliness.
This is very true, and IMO you can't fault devs for attempting to offer a fair experience to all involved.
Post edited by Distopia on
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I kind of miss being able to impact other players and impacted by them. You don't get buffs, saving heals or rezzes often. Even the bad things like being trained or blown up by trick chest.
Seems like player interactions take a back seat to the streamlining of progression. You can do almost nothing to or for other players. I guess a lot of people just want to avoid assholes.
In ur first post almost all the interactions u described are based mostly on pvp so i guess any game that has open world pvp has these interactions like buffs saving healings rezzes etc and the bad things too so i may add aion,eso at pvp area at least and probably any single sandbox mmo that i dont even know or played.
I don't PvP. I actually did many of these things as a PvE'er. In City of Heroes, I'd hang out in lower level zones and "lend aid" to those in need. My tanks would taunt opponents, but not do any damage to them while the player I was helping got the "arrest." My Healers would look for heroes that were hurt and run-by heal them, or resurrect those that had lost the fight. My Controllers would mesmerize groups of opponents that allowed the player being helped to pick them off at their own pace.
Even in higher level areas, jumping in and helping a player in need was a common occurrence in the PvE game. "Player Interactions" take on so many forms that most players do not even comprehend anymore. Their first (and sometimes only) thought is "fighting" which is so far from the only way to interact with others.
Many MMOs do allow players to interact outside of combat, but not many players do anymore. Some (not all) MMOs don't even allow that. I think the biggest hurdle for this is the players attracted to MMOs now, as opposed to players seeking the MMO experience out long ago. Most (not all) players sought MMOs in order to interact with other players, not play solo games online.
Avoiding the bad player interactions are what has lead to many of the changes. You had players sitting in one spot and coming from one guild and not allowing other people who pay to play the same game to access the dungeon because there were no other dungeons with that same loot. So when you change that you take away another point of interaction.
Every decision that removed interaction came about by the complaints about the bad form of interaction. Human beings are responsible the ones who cannot control their greed, pettiness and ugliness.
This is very true, and IMO you can't fault devs for attempting to offer a fair experience to all involved.
Fair to whom? Players seeking to play with other players are "included" how? Players wanting to feel "needed" are included how?
WoW when I played it WoD, Neverwinter, Rider of Icarus, Black Desert(granted didn't play long) , Tree of Savior (except kill stealing), Rift and just about every mainstream themepark I can think of. Now you name games where you have community interactions more than just combat grouping?
WoD isn't current WOW. We're discussing the current state of MMORPGs so we can't use obsolete information.
RIFT involved frequent Rifts. Spontaneous interaction was common with rifts and rift events.
Neverwinter makes for your first legit example.
So you're 1-for-3 in the MMORPGs I played, which makes me highly suspicious of the other 3 MMORPGs you listed that I didn't play. I've never played those other 3 but I'm sure someone who had played them could probably invalidate one or more of them.
Have you changed your interaction requirement to "not just combat grouping"? Non-combat interactions includes socialization, so if you change your argument to that then you're wiped from ~4 pieces of evidence to zero again, because every game you listed has socialization interactions.
Originally your argument seemed to be about a lot of random combat-related scenarios like buffing/rezzing. That style of interaction happens quite frequently among the better MMORPGs; I would spontaneously group with players in ESO to finish quests or clear a path towards a Skyshard; I would heavily group with other players to finished World Events in GW2; I would share (and be shared) buffs in SWTOR; I healed others in FFXIV (and there was this hilarious time where a guy got irritated by my cooperating with him when we needed to get past these high-level bats to get through a cave to reach a town, and then I accepted his wishes and watched him immediately die to the next mob he attempted alone -- I laughed and didn't rez him that time of course.) Plus aforementioned WOW and Archeage.
So that's a decent-sized list of games fitting the criteria.
Maybe instead of a broad "MMORPGs need to change" thread you should be criticizing individual games instead? Sounds like your problem is very narrow in scope if all these mainstream games lack it.
Post edited by Axehilt on
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Now you name games where you have community interactions more than just combat grouping?
Second Life - see There
There - see Second Life
vMTV - short lived, but mostly about hanging out with TV stars and bands.
Ultima Online - halfthe skills were non-combat skills, and many required people working together (note: many used mules) to accomplish things. Also, massive roleplay community on servers such as Lake Superior, Atlantic, Sonoma, Pacific, and Europa
A Tale in the Desert - it's entirely about community interaction and has no combat.
Puzzle Pirates - running towns, organize festivals, and parlor games are a big part of interactive gameplay.
Star Wars Galaxies - plenty here can write volumes on this
Free Realms - half the game was built around hanging out together, often in player-customized zones.
EVE Online - mining ops.moving goods, and manufacturing are regular group activities.
Furcadia - barely any combat to speak of and highly interactive environment
LOTRO - music system and extensive emote system to support it. IIRC the tavern in Bree was a popular RP hang out, and Weatherstock a very populated event.
Keneva - almost entirely about connecting with others and social activities
Muxlim Online - has since been shut down, but was a 3D realm for Muslims to pray together and share their faith.
Basically, the more a game moves away from the EQ/WOW design, the more it seems to move toward social, non-combat interaction.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Comments
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
VG
Every decision that removed interaction came about by the complaints about the bad form of interaction. Human beings are responsible the ones who cannot control their greed, pettiness and ugliness.
The number of MMORPGs which fail the OP's criteria which have been mentioned in this thread is zero.
Work on establishing a real problem first. (If you want to hunt imaginary demons, the Demon Hunter is now a playable class in WOW.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The reality is that this is just this expansion's version of dailies and the rewards are only relevant because they cater to the present limits of the game. Subsequent changes will stop that from being true much like past changes have stopped all the previous content from being particularly relevant. Hell, most of what I mentioned about Outlands is outright skippable now.
In fact you can point out this is an emphasis of this because the only place player interactivity is to be found is within the finite space of those areas that the world quests are to take place in, with most everything else lying empty. That means that WoW as a general rule does not have a reason nor support of player interactivity, and it's only the fact that they are congregated together to do one thing and be done with each-other that they are interacting at all. That's closer to zerging PvE content than anything else and does nothing for the fact that in the majority of the game world such interactivity is not prevalent because it's not a natively supported feature.
So my turn to say incorrect, as you are presently just defending your hobby from criticism without any real accuracy to your claims.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
OP - "I miss player interactions such as x, y, and z in mmo's"
Axehilt - "Actually, x ,y, and z have been happening in WoW"
Deivos - "No it hasn't. That's just an anecdotal example of you doing something"
Me - "Actually, that stuff has been pretty commonplace with the world quest system"
Deivos - "But it's only a one and done thing"
Me - "No it's an on-going thing that people will be doing regularly"
Deivos - "No it isn't, that's just different people rotating through"
Me - "It really isn't, the same people will be doing x, y, and z for a while because of the rewards"
Deivos - "But, but, but it's only in certain areas!"
OP talked about player interaction and Axe and I pointed out that it's happening and gave examples of it happening. Sorry that my facts got in the way of your little anti-WoW narrative.
Your claims that stuff is prevalent in no way invalidates the one-and-done point either, as the situation very much remains that the people play for the reward(s) and then they are done (like there is little to no reason to repeat the hippogriff quest multiple times when you get one, or the ancient elder god monster world event). Much less so the case than many of those things likely aren't part of the dailies you are talking about. Hence the point that people will just be rotating through.
You claiming it's an ongoing thing just highlighted the fact you were literally just talking about dailies and rep grinding quests as we've seen in previous expansions, which immediately shot your argument in the foot because the quests you are talking about turned out to be the grind quests that serves as filler for the game. This was emphasized even further by the fact that these quests only appear in the new zone, and we see that they only are available at max level and in the new Legion zones, meaning the entire rest of the game is devoid of such (and as I pointed out with the historical trend, such as outmoded content like the Outlands which did similar before, we can make an educated guess as to where this content is headed).
If we want to talk about moving goalposts we could simply note how from your first response you have been backpedaling with this defense with each point made. I also talked about Archeage and GW2, but since that's not the focus of the thing you love and rode in to defend, I guess you forgot about that.
I've even in other threads "defended" WoW and been the one to point out facts about it's game world and mechanics (in a recent post to Nariu I did so actually in a conversation where I brought up the presence of WoW having an open persistent world still and the Legion expansion adding more content to the freeform multiplayer aspect of the game and expanding the open world space further, which is an iconic characteristic of MMOs). So that shoots your anti-WoW bullshit down.
Your opinion (no "facts" in sight) is not sufficient evidence of anything other than your opinion, and the same applies to Axe's provided opinion. The facts certainly are what they are, but you seem none too fond of acknowledging that.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Here are some things that world quests reward players with, and why they will be a continuous source of content throughout the expansion.
- Gold: Gold is always in demand. There's never a point where people won't be looking to make more gold. Some of the world quests give a pretty large sum of gold and will therefore be sought out by players for a long time to come.
- Profession materials (rare): World quests are currently the main source for certain rare profession materials, such as Felwort for herbalism. You cannot pick this herb in the wild. There is a rare chance for it to be gathered with another herb I believe, but for the most part, world quests are the only way to get this herb.
- Artifact power: Many world quests give artifact power which is used to advance your artifact weapon skill
tree. A single weapon takes a huge amount of artifact power to complete. Once a person has completed one weapon, likely taking months to do so, they will then be working on artifact weapons for their other specs.
So again, world quests are not a one and done thing. There will always be a need for rare profession materials throughout the expansion for example. I'm not going to a do a world quest for Felwort once and be done with it. I'm going to do a Felwort world quest every time I see one pop on my map. For the high value gold quests it will be the same thing. When people open their maps to see which world quests are available for that day, you can bet that people will be flocking to the ones that reward a lot of money.
Profession materials and gold are both examples of things people have ground in many ways in WoW over the years as well. Garrisons are a notable example of that.
It's amazing how blatantly you try to bullshit here as well, as the claim you just made ignores this entire paragraph;
"You claiming it's an ongoing thing just highlighted the fact you were literally just talking about dailies and rep grinding quests as we've seen in previous expansions, which immediately shot your argument in the foot because the quests you are talking about turned out to be the grind quests that serves as filler for the game. This was emphasized even further by the fact that these quests only appear in the new zone, and we see that they only are available at max level and in the new Legion zones, meaning the entire rest of the game is devoid of such (and as I pointed out with the historical trend, such as outmoded content like the Outlands which did similar before, we can make an educated guess as to where this content is headed)."
That addresses exactly what world quests are.
But that doesn't stand convenient to the narrative you are trying to build and you'd rather attempt to lie on a forum where anyone that's not blind can still read the post right above yours to see that what you just claimed is not even remotely true.
So again, everything you just said is based on anecdote as well as talking of what is inevitably a temporary focus of the game. It's great you have such strong faith in something, but this is a horribly weak argument you've been building for no apparent reason.
EDIT: I also love that you quoted the paragraph that talks about world events instead of the one talking about world quests. I mean hell, I cited two world events in that paragraph even and called it out as a world event not quest (brought them up in particular because they are an accompanying major factor of the present collaborative gameplay in Legion through the zone exploration, but are an entirely finite element in terms of what rewards you expect to gain from them, meaning all the activity around them is bound to drop off). If you're going to claim I don't know what I'm talking about, you can at least take a moment to realize what it is you're talking about as you just messed up pretty damn hard there.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Star Trek Online: Ship to ship healing? Planets are instanced. Maybe one can heal on a star base, but why?
Basically any MMO where instances abound and players are kept separate.
I haven't played a lot of new MMOs (any MMOs lately, actually), so my memory may be faulty. It seems that many new ones are geared to cut down drastically on player interactions, giving us lobbies (aka cities like NWN), dungeons for one player or group (aka instances), attack based heal abilities (ala GW2), or non-existent direct healing abilities like EQ and other MMOs had.
VG
This still does not going into interactions are limited in the genre as a whole. Hell some games don't even have real "assist abilities."
So we have basically Legion and Archeage in the mainstream of the genre that have interactions outside of combat grouping?
Until you establish that your claim isn't completely baseless nonsense, the burden is on you to provide evidence of games where these interactions don't happen.
If you ever start citing games where player interactions don't happen, only then will we worry about citing additional games where interactions happen.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Food and drink now provide one with the buffs that other players used to grant. Now they are party based and so outside of groups you do not get them . Some games have them but even if someone runs by and gives you a buff people don't even thank you any more. So I guess all the lack of interaction has lead to ruder players too.
Hard pressed to look for interactions outside of groups.
Now you name games where you have community interactions more than just combat grouping?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even in higher level areas, jumping in and helping a player in need was a common occurrence in the PvE game. "Player Interactions" take on so many forms that most players do not even comprehend anymore. Their first (and sometimes only) thought is "fighting" which is so far from the only way to interact with others.
Many MMOs do allow players to interact outside of combat, but not many players do anymore. Some (not all) MMOs don't even allow that. I think the biggest hurdle for this is the players attracted to MMOs now, as opposed to players seeking the MMO experience out long ago. Most (not all) players sought MMOs in order to interact with other players, not play solo games online.
VG
VG
RIFT involved frequent Rifts. Spontaneous interaction was common with rifts and rift events.
Neverwinter makes for your first legit example.
So you're 1-for-3 in the MMORPGs I played, which makes me highly suspicious of the other 3 MMORPGs you listed that I didn't play. I've never played those other 3 but I'm sure someone who had played them could probably invalidate one or more of them.
Have you changed your interaction requirement to "not just combat grouping"? Non-combat interactions includes socialization, so if you change your argument to that then you're wiped from ~4 pieces of evidence to zero again, because every game you listed has socialization interactions.
Originally your argument seemed to be about a lot of random combat-related scenarios like buffing/rezzing. That style of interaction happens quite frequently among the better MMORPGs; I would spontaneously group with players in ESO to finish quests or clear a path towards a Skyshard; I would heavily group with other players to finished World Events in GW2; I would share (and be shared) buffs in SWTOR; I healed others in FFXIV (and there was this hilarious time where a guy got irritated by my cooperating with him when we needed to get past these high-level bats to get through a cave to reach a town, and then I accepted his wishes and watched him immediately die to the next mob he attempted alone -- I laughed and didn't rez him that time of course.) Plus aforementioned WOW and Archeage.
So that's a decent-sized list of games fitting the criteria.
Maybe instead of a broad "MMORPGs need to change" thread you should be criticizing individual games instead? Sounds like your problem is very narrow in scope if all these mainstream games lack it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Basically, the more a game moves away from the EQ/WOW design, the more it seems to move toward social, non-combat interaction.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
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