Pay the baker a fee to bake the bread you gonna buy..
If no one made the type of bread I wanted, I would pay them for the ingredients and their time before getting it, sure. Why not? What's the option? To only eat bread I don't like?
Look, the mainstream market is done with making AAA MMORPGS. The VCs have moved on to the next fad. The genre is once more niche and unfashionable. The only way I am going to see the game I want to be made is through crowdfunding. I am happy to support concepts and projects that offer me what I am looking for.
It has worked great so far for me in other gaming genres, some of my favourite games of the last few years have been crowdfunded. I haven't put into a MMORPG yet, but I suspect that I will support Pantheon soon based on the progress that they are making and the community interaction of the team.
It might not be edgy or hip to like crowdfunding right now, but without it this genre is dead man walking.
The thing about this industry is these companies make alot of promises that their unmade bread is going to be the best...THey throw around catchphrases that peak peoples interest and play upon their imaginations picturing the perfect loaf of bread and getting money for nothing but promises really...You are putting alot of trust in these indie companies to bake that perfect loaf of bread when many of them dont even have the resources to do so.
At least, if they haven't provided already, they should provide a business plan, including high level estimates for each portion of the game they're promising. They're asking external investors, us, to help fund their game.
We, as players are looking for a game, as promised, as a return. The dividends are the fun derived from the game we're investing in.
Wouldn't any other financial backer, venture capitalist or publisher want to know the financial plan and high level estimates in order to help make a wise decision on the investment? <snip>
Investors yes; and they will want a return on their investment as well, interest maybe or a percentage of the company.
Kickstarter supporters - I suggest - are not seen as "investors" though; they will get a copy of the game - assuming it gets made - which makes them customers. And "customers" don't get - or need - plans and so forth.
The likes of Kickstarter though creates a "grey class" called backers - on which there is an active discussion.
And this example seems to demonstrate this. Arguably the Kickstarter project description should have said "money will be used to create a demo and business plan to take to venture capitalists. If the VCs support the project we will then work on the game. And if finished then you will get a copy." How much would it get?
Presumably $900k was the number they thought they needed to do enough to get the funding. It hasn't happened and now they want some more. Maybe $2M will be enough, maybe not. Maybe $3M will but if not .....
Cough cough can I go ahead and say I told you so now, or should I wait until this turns out to be just the latest in the continuing endless saga? There is billions of dollars of investor money out there for game development, the only problem is with investors you have to meet deadlines, account for where the money is spent, and deliver the game you promise. With kickstarter you design a webpage, make a mountain of bullshit promises, take the money and buy a new house on the beach, laugh at all the idiots you swindled.
Here is a quote from Caspian where he seems to blame the oversight of not actually explaining they needed $2-$3 Million on the Kickstarter page on his small echo chamber:
The problem is, we didn't say it directly on the Kickstarter page. But I want to stress, that wasn't intentional. Requiring more than just the Kickstarter money to ship the game was so ingrained in our minds and the people we communicate with regularly, that we simply took for granted that people would understand that Kickstarter for us was for kickstarting... not finishing.
We'd told people we had 18 months of development and a team of, at the time, 16 people. So basic arithmetic says $900k isn't going to cover even salaries for the full 18 months.
But that all aside, I didn't want any more time to go by with people thinking we were trying to be sneaky or deceptive.
Wow, that's simply amazing. I think as others have said, Kickstarter is for finishing a project, not just getting an influx of money.
Someone should tell Chris Roberts that lol. They're now at what? 40X the amount they got from KS... and still fund-raising.
But yeah COE is not saying the magic words, "feature creep." They should know by now like we all do that saying that excuses everything.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The thing about this industry is these companies make alot of promises that their unmade bread is going to be the best...THey throw around catchphrases that peak peoples interest and play upon their imaginations picturing the perfect loaf of bread and getting money for nothing but promises really...You are putting alot of trust in these indie companies to bake that perfect loaf of bread when many of them dont even have the resources to do so.
Part of the problem is that we often mistake "hobbyists" and "some dude that played a lot of games" for "this industry" and "these companies".
This is the only field where people seem to willingly accept someone's self-appointed title and assume the person is even remotely qualified for the job that not only they claim they can do but the job they are asking for free money to do.
"I'm an architect."
"Really? Cool. What are some of your buildings? Maybe, I've seen one."
"No buildings yet. I have most of my work in my files. Endless files. I've been designing buildings for a long time."
"Okay, cool. Where'd you get your degree? University or a Tech institute?"
"I don't have a degree in Architecture."
"Engineering?"
"You don't need a degree. I know plenty of people who design buildings that don't have degrees."
"Ok, fine. So, wait... what have you done that qualifies you as an architect?"
"I've lived in houses for over 20 years now. There are buildings everywhere you go. I can see what works and what doesn't. Trust me. I know building design, probably better than so-called professionals do."
Replace "architect" with any profession. Doctor, lawyer, astronaut, engineer, teacher... have this kind of conversation with any of those professions and the next step is wondering whether the person is a fool, insanely arrogant, or just plain naive.
Do you bother to explain to them how little they know about what they're getting into, or do you just back away slowly and hope that the collateral damage of the project's inevitable implosion don't leave too many people high and dry? If you are of the profession they claim to be, you might even feel insulted.
But every Tom, Dick, and Casner that makes up a studio name and types out a wishlist of features can easily mop up 10s of thousands of dollars in free money (sometimes a million or more) from people that buy into their BS, despite all history and data showing that when it comes to crowdsourcing, there is no project more guaranteed to fail than an MMO by people with little or no industry experience.
"You are putting a lot of trust in these indie companies to bake that perfect loaf of bread when many of them don't even have the resources to do so." - Theocritus
^--- The most logical, reasonable and unbiased statement on the topic so far.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Of course his OTHER defense is also a gem. he compares himself to a parent and backers to children who simply do not have a basic understanding and it's "technically" their fault, the blame should REALLY be on the kids/backers.
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Big surprise. People never seem to learn that if something seems to good to be true you should be skeptical, not throw money at it. That being said I wish them luck making their game, the idea sounds great but I'll eat my shoe if they actually release it with everything they've said it will have. I'd be shocked if it gets released at all much less including all the lofty ideas they have.
Of course his OTHER defense is also a gem. he compares himself to a parent and backers to children who simply do not have a basic understanding and it's "technically" their fault, the blame should REALLY be on the kids/backers.
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
While I agree he could have communicated this point in a less condescending manner, he does have a point, right? How many people backing this game believed $900K was enough to take it from concept to launch? It should be obvious to anyone that more money will be needed.
This thread is mostly just a circle jerk of I-told-you-so's by people who'd probably love to play a game like this but would rather actively harm its chances of success because, again, that would be make them "right" about their predictions it would fail. What are you guys celebrating exactly? I just don't get this mentality at all.
I don't think it should be obvious as many people have no idea what game development entails or what they really "need" in order to finish. "We" talk about it all the time, we follow news stories and announcements but the average person probably doesn't spend that much time on forums and following the nitty gritty of games.
They see kickstarter and "x" amount of dollars and they assume that means the company has looked into what they need and that they only need "y".
Of course it comes with the territory that people should do their due diligence and not just take the word of whomever is asking for money but unless they say up front "this money is to do this, that and the other thing" people will think the game is far enough along that they only need what they ask for.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Of course his OTHER defense is also a gem. he compares himself to a parent and backers to children who simply do not have a basic understanding and it's "technically" their fault, the blame should REALLY be on the kids/backers.
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
While I agree he could have communicated this point in a less condescending manner, he does have a point, right? How many people backing this game believed $900K was enough to take it from concept to launch? It should be obvious to anyone that more money will be needed.
This thread is mostly just a circle jerk of I-told-you-so's by people who'd probably love to play a game like this but would rather actively harm its chances of success because, again, that would be make them "right" about their predictions it would fail. What are you guys celebrating exactly? I just don't get this mentality at all.
It doesn't matter if people believed that $900k was enough. It's laid out on the KS site that project funding is supposed to be enough to complete the project. If the project went in lowballing just so they can fund that would be frowned on.
KS is funding for a complete project. If they wanted partial funding they should have used Indie GoGo or any of the other funding sites that allow for partial funding. They are trying to work the system to their favor in a way it that is explicitly not allowed on KS.
I haven't heard many people complaining about Crowfall's $800,000 KS funding goal or thinking that it was going to get made for that.
And didn't Star Citizen ask for just $2 Million?
I didn't pledge to COE (or anything else for that matter) and I've always been skeptical about some of their more radical ideas as well as their ability to deliver, but I'm detecting an unusual amount of piling on in this thread using reasons that other more popular KS games seem to get a pass.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Guys, this is nothing new... We were told pretty much from the beginning that this was only part of the money they needed and that they would be sourcing the rest through private investment, etc... as well as having a store where they can raise additional funds.
A project that already has $900k+ of pre-orders, etc... shouldn't have too much trouble securing investment funds. This isn't anything to worry about, imo.
They say right in the post that they have plans in place to source the rest of the funds, and anything purchased from the store just reduces the amount the need to source elsewhere.
Of course his OTHER defense is also a gem. he compares himself to a parent and backers to children who simply do not have a basic understanding and it's "technically" their fault, the blame should REALLY be on the kids/backers.
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
While I agree he could have communicated this point in a less condescending manner, he does have a point, right? How many people backing this game believed $900K was enough to take it from concept to launch? It should be obvious to anyone that more money will be needed.
This thread is mostly just a circle jerk of I-told-you-so's by people who'd probably love to play a game like this but would rather actively harm its chances of success because, again, that would be make them "right" about their predictions it would fail. What are you guys celebrating exactly? I just don't get this mentality at all.
It doesn't matter if people believed that $900k was enough. It's laid out on the KS site that project funding is supposed to be enough to complete the project. If the project went in lowballing just so they can fund that would be frowned on.
KS is funding for a complete project. If they wanted partial funding they should have used Indie GoGo or any of the other funding sites that allow for partial funding. They are trying to work the system to their favor in a way it that is explicitly not allowed on KS.
I haven't heard many people complaining about Crowfall's $800,000 KS funding goal or thinking that it was going to get made for that.
And didn't Star Citizen ask for just $2 Million?
I didn't pledge to COE (or anything else for that matter) and I've always been skeptical about some of their more radical ideas as well as their ability to deliver, but I'm detecting an unusual amount of piling on in this thread using reasons that other more popular KS games seem to get a pass.
yeah but Crowfall hasn't said that it couldn't finish it and needed more.
Star Citizen is a bit different in that they have never said that they couldn't finish and needed more, they just continued to raise money.
Probably the same situation but since they have never said "oh my we can't finish" they are given some slack.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The short answer is: you can’t. At least, not a game with the scope of Crowfall. Fortunately, that isn’t our plan.
We are limiting our scope of Crowfall in two major ways: first, we’re starting with the core module of the game, not the entire vision of the game, and second, we opted to make a game based primarily on player-interaction instead of linear content – which is THE major cost for most MMOs.
Additionally, to make the game as efficiently as possible, we are leveraging trusted technology (like Unity, PhysX, and cloud computing) rather than building everything ourselves. The payoff from this has been enormous.
Lastly, we’ve already raised some money and -- as we said in the video -- we will raise more if we need to. We would prefer to be only answerable to you, our players – but one way or the other, we’re going to get this game made.
ArtCraft took a minority investment round of $2.3 million last year. We will likely sell the rights to Crowfall in foreign territories (especially restricted markets, like China, where we can't ship the game, anyway) to add to our development budget. If that isn't enough, we can always take more minority investment if we need to.
The Kickstarter deliverable (the core module) can be accomplished with our capital and the crowdfunding money -- providing we are successful in meeting our Kickstarter funding goal.
Every kickstarter is, to some degree, a leap of faith. You are betting on the vision, and on the creators. The founders of ArtCraft have invested heavily in his project, and we know that we can make it happen. We’ve built a lot of these games. This isn't our first rodeo. We asked for $800,000 not because that is "everything we need," but because that is "everything we need, from you" for the core module.
Of course his OTHER defense is also a gem. he compares himself to a parent and backers to children who simply do not have a basic understanding and it's "technically" their fault, the blame should REALLY be on the kids/backers.
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
While I agree he could have communicated this point in a less condescending manner, he does have a point, right? How many people backing this game believed $900K was enough to take it from concept to launch? It should be obvious to anyone that more money will be needed.
This thread is mostly just a circle jerk of I-told-you-so's by people who'd probably love to play a game like this but would rather actively harm its chances of success because, again, that would be make them "right" about their predictions it would fail. What are you guys celebrating exactly? I just don't get this mentality at all.
It doesn't matter if people believed that $900k was enough. It's laid out on the KS site that project funding is supposed to be enough to complete the project. If the project went in lowballing just so they can fund that would be frowned on.
KS is funding for a complete project. If they wanted partial funding they should have used Indie GoGo or any of the other funding sites that allow for partial funding. They are trying to work the system to their favor in a way it that is explicitly not allowed on KS.
I haven't heard many people complaining about Crowfall's $800,000 KS funding goal or thinking that it was going to get made for that.
And didn't Star Citizen ask for just $2 Million?
I didn't pledge to COE (or anything else for that matter) and I've always been skeptical about some of their more radical ideas as well as their ability to deliver, but I'm detecting an unusual amount of piling on in this thread using reasons that other more popular KS games seem to get a pass.
yeah but Crowfall hasn't said that it couldn't finish it and needed more.
Star Citizen is a bit different in that they have never said that they couldn't finish and needed more, they just continued to raise money.
Probably the same situation but since they have never said "oh my we can't finish" they are given some slack.
So you're saying it's all abut the PR spin and honesty gets you in trouble
I'm thinking that its more about celebrity developer worship aided and abetted by free gushing PR from gaming sites.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Of course his OTHER defense is also a gem. he compares himself to a parent and backers to children who simply do not have a basic understanding and it's "technically" their fault, the blame should REALLY be on the kids/backers.
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
While I agree he could have communicated this point in a less condescending manner, he does have a point, right? How many people backing this game believed $900K was enough to take it from concept to launch? It should be obvious to anyone that more money will be needed.
This thread is mostly just a circle jerk of I-told-you-so's by people who'd probably love to play a game like this but would rather actively harm its chances of success because, again, that would be make them "right" about their predictions it would fail. What are you guys celebrating exactly? I just don't get this mentality at all.
It doesn't matter if people believed that $900k was enough. It's laid out on the KS site that project funding is supposed to be enough to complete the project. If the project went in lowballing just so they can fund that would be frowned on.
KS is funding for a complete project. If they wanted partial funding they should have used Indie GoGo or any of the other funding sites that allow for partial funding. They are trying to work the system to their favor in a way it that is explicitly not allowed on KS.
I haven't heard many people complaining about Crowfall's $800,000 KS funding goal or thinking that it was going to get made for that.
And didn't Star Citizen ask for just $2 Million?
I didn't pledge to COE (or anything else for that matter) and I've always been skeptical about some of their more radical ideas as well as their ability to deliver, but I'm detecting an unusual amount of piling on in this thread using reasons that other more popular KS games seem to get a pass.
yeah but Crowfall hasn't said that it couldn't finish it and needed more.
Star Citizen is a bit different in that they have never said that they couldn't finish and needed more, they just continued to raise money.
Probably the same situation but since they have never said "oh my we can't finish" they are given some slack.
So you're saying it's all abut the PR spin and honesty gets you in trouble
I'm thinking that its more about celebrity developer worship aided and abetted by free gushing PR from gaming sites.
I think PR is a strong part of it. If Crowfall says that they can't finish their project and will need more money then they will have the same PR issue.
As far as Star Citizen, they are surrounded by battalions of people who would love to pounce on them (and many have) for continually asking for money (selling ships).
Woe befall them if they say they can't finish the project.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Of course his OTHER defense is also a gem. he compares himself to a parent and backers to children who simply do not have a basic understanding and it's "technically" their fault, the blame should REALLY be on the kids/backers.
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
While I agree he could have communicated this point in a less condescending manner, he does have a point, right? How many people backing this game believed $900K was enough to take it from concept to launch? It should be obvious to anyone that more money will be needed.
This thread is mostly just a circle jerk of I-told-you-so's by people who'd probably love to play a game like this but would rather actively harm its chances of success because, again, that would be make them "right" about their predictions it would fail. What are you guys celebrating exactly? I just don't get this mentality at all.
It doesn't matter if people believed that $900k was enough. It's laid out on the KS site that project funding is supposed to be enough to complete the project. If the project went in lowballing just so they can fund that would be frowned on.
KS is funding for a complete project. If they wanted partial funding they should have used Indie GoGo or any of the other funding sites that allow for partial funding. They are trying to work the system to their favor in a way it that is explicitly not allowed on KS.
I haven't heard many people complaining about Crowfall's $800,000 KS funding goal or thinking that it was going to get made for that.
And didn't Star Citizen ask for just $2 Million?
I didn't pledge to COE (or anything else for that matter) and I've always been skeptical about some of their more radical ideas as well as their ability to deliver, but I'm detecting an unusual amount of piling on in this thread using reasons that other more popular KS games seem to get a pass.
yeah but Crowfall hasn't said that it couldn't finish it and needed more.
Star Citizen is a bit different in that they have never said that they couldn't finish and needed more, they just continued to raise money.
Probably the same situation but since they have never said "oh my we can't finish" they are given some slack.
So you're saying it's all abut the PR spin and honesty gets you in trouble
I'm thinking that its more about celebrity developer worship aided and abetted by free gushing PR from gaming sites.
I think PR is a strong part of it. If Crowfall says that they can't finish their project and will need more money then they will have the same PR issue.
As far as Star Citizen, they are surrounded by battalions of people who would love to pounce on them (and many have) for continually asking for money (selling ships).
Woe befall them if they say they can't finish the project.
Well getting back to what I responded to, Star Citizen is definitely not getting made (nor was it ever going to be) for their original $2 Mil KS funding goal no matter what the KS site may have to say about the KS goal being what is needed for a completed project.
None of these large projects that use KS to generate buzz and get the fund raising started are,
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Not surprised at this. I am not a software developer however I have been a Network Engineer for 20+ years as well as a business owner and let me tell you, from a purely business perspective, $900k with what they are trying to accomplish is not even in the same realm as enough. He mentioned burn rate. If I had to guess, and yes its a guess, I bet he easily burns $80k-$100k a month. This would give them, with no additional funding, 9-10 months before money is needed. If you look at when the kickstarter ended we are about 3-4 months into that. So he has burned through 45% of his "initial" fund raising. Its about time he started looking for the "next" round.
Not faulting them. They are doing nothing "wrong". I am just simply stating a realistic view on this.
I agree with DMKano. Even $2-$3 million is not enough.
How is it not wrong to ask for money and then tell people that you underestimated costs by over 200%?
Thats why i put it in quotes..
They did noting wrong. What they did was not illegal for example.
Now.. Did what they do border on unethical as well as professional negligence in the case of business practices?
Pay the baker a fee to bake the bread you gonna buy..
If no one made the type of bread I wanted, I would pay them for the ingredients and their time before getting it, sure. Why not? What's the option? To only eat bread I don't like?
Look, the mainstream market is done with making AAA MMORPGS. The VCs have moved on to the next fad. The genre is once more niche and unfashionable. The only way I am going to see the game I want to be made is through crowdfunding. I am happy to support concepts and projects that offer me what I am looking for.
It has worked great so far for me in other gaming genres, some of my favourite games of the last few years have been crowdfunded. I haven't put into a MMORPG yet, but I suspect that I will support Pantheon soon based on the progress that they are making and the community interaction of the team.
It might not be edgy or hip to like crowdfunding right now, but without it this genre is dead man walking.
The thing about this industry is these companies make alot of promises that their unmade bread is going to be the best...THey throw around catchphrases that peak peoples interest and play upon their imaginations picturing the perfect loaf of bread and getting money for nothing but promises really...You are putting alot of trust in these indie companies to bake that perfect loaf of bread when many of them dont even have the resources to do so.
A lot of trust? It's a few dollars... I'm hardly leaving my firstborn with them. Let's not get dramatic.
Look, unless you are fresh off the boat you can clearly see the good and bad projects. For example, it was clear that Wasteland 2 was going to be a quality delivery from the start, while something such as Greed Monger was a disaster waiting to happen from the off. This is why I have held off on Pantheon, until I have seen that they are stable and making real quality progress. It just takes a little critical thought and a little resistance to hype. You can't blame others if you choose to allow yourself to be swept away though...
The truth though is in all the years that I have been playing games I have bought many many duds. A lot of boxes sit on my shelf unfinished and a disappointment, usually bought on the strength of some paid for review (which were even more influential in the days before the internet was what we see today). I am used to risking a bit of cash on a game that looks good to me, which is a good thing considering the state of games 'journalism' and reviewing even these days. I am quite philosophical about it. Some are winners, some are losers. Most are winners though, luckily.
If I want to see a type of game being made in a genre declared dead by the mainstream, I have to support it. If people don't, then the genre will stay dead.
Look at the most anticipated mmorpgs in development on the front page of this site. What would it look like with no crowd funding?
If I want to see a type of game being made in a genre declared dead by the mainstream, I have to support it. If people don't, then the genre will stay dead. <snip>
Whilst I don't disagree with your sentiment the "truth" is that if you go into a store and buy a tin of beans you won't be happy if you get home, open the tin and find it contains carrots. If you buy petrol you don;t want diesel.
We can assume this was an "honest" mistake - the cynical may not. Centuries of snake oil salesmen and pyramid sellers makes this type of stuff fundamental though.
Whilst I don't disagree with your sentiment the "truth" is that if you go into a store and buy a tin of beans you won't be happy if you get home, open the tin and find it contains carrots.
Like i have said, my shelf is full of traditionally funded games that I have purchased on the backs of reviews that turned out to be 'carrots', or at least rancid beans. I am used to the little disappointments that life sometimes throws me as a gamer. I don't get all dramatic and outraged by it all.
So far, crowd funding has served me well. Far better than the mainstream AAA game devs, tbh.
I tend to apply critical thinking and judgement, rather than emotion and hype, to a project though.
In the end, the risk is worth it because it is the only way to see games made in genres declared dead and unprofitable by the mainstream. This includes, now, MMORPGs, and especially the type of MMORPG that I want.
Another update from this guy on Massively. Basically he is refusing to allow refunds, even though he admits his Kickstarter Page said nothing about this 900k needing an additional 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 in future unsecured funding. His reasoning seems to be that now that people actually know the risk they might pull their money. As I said before, "No shit Sherlock!"
That being said, if people react to this perceived increase in risk, and start requesting refunds, our principle goes down, we’ve got less money to develop with, and that creates *real* risk for everyone – us, the people who knew about our need to raise additional funding, and those who didn’t, but who understand and are ok with it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Another update from this guy on Massively. Basically he is refusing to allow refunds, even though he admits his Kickstarter Page said nothing about this 900k needing an additional 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 in future unsecured funding. His reasoning seems to be that now that people actually know the risk they might pull their money. As I said before, "No shit Sherlock!"
That being said, if people react to this perceived increase in risk, and start requesting refunds, our principle goes down, we’ve got less money to develop with, and that creates *real* risk for everyone – us, the people who knew about our need to raise additional funding, and those who didn’t, but who understand and are ok with it.
Dude sounds like a real winner. Can't wait til the inevitable meltdown from this guy. Going to be EPIC.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
It's fine and dandy if people knew the score from the beginning but they were not really told the truth from the very beginning and in such a case is it fair to not allow refunds. If they had been forthright from the very beginning there would be no need to deny this refund because everyone was well advised that they might not be able to make the game on the initial projected sums and would require more.
Comments
Kickstarter supporters - I suggest - are not seen as "investors" though; they will get a copy of the game - assuming it gets made - which makes them customers. And "customers" don't get - or need - plans and so forth.
The likes of Kickstarter though creates a "grey class" called backers - on which there is an active discussion.
And this example seems to demonstrate this. Arguably the Kickstarter project description should have said "money will be used to create a demo and business plan to take to venture capitalists. If the VCs support the project we will then work on the game. And if finished then you will get a copy." How much would it get?
Presumably $900k was the number they thought they needed to do enough to get the funding. It hasn't happened and now they want some more. Maybe $2M will be enough, maybe not. Maybe $3M will but if not .....
But yeah COE is not saying the magic words, "feature creep." They should know by now like we all do that saying that excuses everything.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Part of the problem is that we often mistake "hobbyists" and "some dude that played a lot of games" for "this industry" and "these companies".
This is the only field where people seem to willingly accept someone's self-appointed title and assume the person is even remotely qualified for the job that not only they claim they can do but the job they are asking for free money to do.
"I'm an architect."
Do you bother to explain to them how little they know about what they're getting into, or do you just back away slowly and hope that the collateral damage of the project's inevitable implosion don't leave too many people high and dry? If you are of the profession they claim to be, you might even feel insulted.
But every Tom, Dick, and Casner that makes up a studio name and types out a wishlist of features can easily mop up 10s of thousands of dollars in free money (sometimes a million or more) from people that buy into their BS, despite all history and data showing that when it comes to crowdsourcing, there is no project more guaranteed to fail than an MMO by people with little or no industry experience.
^--- The most logical, reasonable and unbiased statement on the topic so far.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I doubt they will be able to release this game with that massive feature list of theirs.
They see kickstarter and "x" amount of dollars and they assume that means the company has looked into what they need and that they only need "y".
Of course it comes with the territory that people should do their due diligence and not just take the word of whomever is asking for money but unless they say up front "this money is to do this, that and the other thing" people will think the game is far enough along that they only need what they ask for.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I haven't heard many people complaining about Crowfall's $800,000 KS funding goal or thinking that it was going to get made for that.
And didn't Star Citizen ask for just $2 Million?
I didn't pledge to COE (or anything else for that matter) and I've always been skeptical about some of their more radical ideas as well as their ability to deliver, but I'm detecting an unusual amount of piling on in this thread using reasons that other more popular KS games seem to get a pass.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
They say right in the post that they have plans in place to source the rest of the funds, and anything purchased from the store just reduces the amount the need to source elsewhere.
Star Citizen is a bit different in that they have never said that they couldn't finish and needed more, they just continued to raise money.
Probably the same situation but since they have never said "oh my we can't finish" they are given some slack.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It's hard to complain when Crowfall had this on their Kickstarter page:
I'm thinking that its more about celebrity developer worship aided and abetted by free gushing PR from gaming sites.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
As far as Star Citizen, they are surrounded by battalions of people who would love to pounce on them (and many have) for continually asking for money (selling ships).
Woe befall them if they say they can't finish the project.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
None of these large projects that use KS to generate buzz and get the fund raising started are,
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
They did noting wrong. What they did was not illegal for example.
Now.. Did what they do border on unethical as well as professional negligence in the case of business practices?
Thats the question..
A lot of trust? It's a few dollars... I'm hardly leaving my firstborn with them. Let's not get dramatic.
Look, unless you are fresh off the boat you can clearly see the good and bad projects. For example, it was clear that Wasteland 2 was going to be a quality delivery from the start, while something such as Greed Monger was a disaster waiting to happen from the off. This is why I have held off on Pantheon, until I have seen that they are stable and making real quality progress. It just takes a little critical thought and a little resistance to hype. You can't blame others if you choose to allow yourself to be swept away though...
The truth though is in all the years that I have been playing games I have bought many many duds. A lot of boxes sit on my shelf unfinished and a disappointment, usually bought on the strength of some paid for review (which were even more influential in the days before the internet was what we see today). I am used to risking a bit of cash on a game that looks good to me, which is a good thing considering the state of games 'journalism' and reviewing even these days. I am quite philosophical about it. Some are winners, some are losers. Most are winners though, luckily.
If I want to see a type of game being made in a genre declared dead by the mainstream, I have to support it. If people don't, then the genre will stay dead.
Look at the most anticipated mmorpgs in development on the front page of this site. What would it look like with no crowd funding?
We can assume this was an "honest" mistake - the cynical may not. Centuries of snake oil salesmen and pyramid sellers makes this type of stuff fundamental though.
Like i have said, my shelf is full of traditionally funded games that I have purchased on the backs of reviews that turned out to be 'carrots', or at least rancid beans. I am used to the little disappointments that life sometimes throws me as a gamer. I don't get all dramatic and outraged by it all.
So far, crowd funding has served me well. Far better than the mainstream AAA game devs, tbh.
I tend to apply critical thinking and judgement, rather than emotion and hype, to a project though.
In the end, the risk is worth it because it is the only way to see games made in genres declared dead and unprofitable by the mainstream. This includes, now, MMORPGs, and especially the type of MMORPG that I want.
That being said, if people react to this perceived increase in risk, and start requesting refunds, our principle goes down, we’ve got less money to develop with, and that creates *real* risk for everyone – us, the people who knew about our need to raise additional funding, and those who didn’t, but who understand and are ok with it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?