It's fine and dandy if people knew the score from the beginning but they were not really told the truth from the very beginning and in such a case is it fair to not allow refunds. If they had been forthright from the very beginning there would be no need to deny this refund because everyone was well advised that they might not be able to make the game on the initial projected sums and would require more.
Exactly The dude above you totally missed the point.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I suspect that the CoE development shenanigans may actually be more entertaining than the game that will eventually be produced !
If they actually manage to produce it, that is...
This is why the general populace aren't part of day to day business activities. This is just business. People create the drama aspect of it in their heads.
I suspect that the CoE development shenanigans may actually be more entertaining than the game that will eventually be produced !
If they actually manage to produce it, that is...
This is why the general populace aren't part of day to day business activities. This is just business. People create the drama aspect of it in their heads.
Are you suggesting this is good business?
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Of course his OTHER defense is also a gem. he compares himself to a parent and backers to children who simply do not have a basic understanding and it's "technically" their fault, the blame should REALLY be on the kids/backers.
If you're baking with your kid and you go "now put the egg in the bowl", you just kind of expect them to crack the egg first. If they don't, it's technically your fault for not being explicit, but does it mean you were being duplicitous? No, you simply took for granted they had the necessary understanding of the process. That's the reason we didn't explicitly say Kickstarter wasn't all the money we needed. It isn't true, and it didn't occur to us to be explicit about it. I guess it just seemed obvious to us.
Seriously. They have at least 1 (and I think 2) PR/CM folks on staff, they really need to put Caspien in the back room and let professionals handle the communication. The more he talks the worse he makes it.
While I agree he could have communicated this point in a less condescending manner, he does have a point, right? How many people backing this game believed $900K was enough to take it from concept to launch? It should be obvious to anyone that more money will be needed.
This thread is mostly just a circle jerk of I-told-you-so's by people who'd probably love to play a game like this but would rather actively harm its chances of success because, again, that would be make them "right" about their predictions it would fail. What are you guys celebrating exactly? I just don't get this mentality at all.
It doesn't matter if people believed that $900k was enough. It's laid out on the KS site that project funding is supposed to be enough to complete the project. If the project went in lowballing just so they can fund that would be frowned on.
KS is funding for a complete project. If they wanted partial funding they should have used Indie GoGo or any of the other funding sites that allow for partial funding. They are trying to work the system to their favor in a way it that is explicitly not allowed on KS.
I haven't heard many people complaining about Crowfall's $800,000 KS funding goal or thinking that it was going to get made for that.
And didn't Star Citizen ask for just $2 Million?
I didn't pledge to COE (or anything else for that matter) and I've always been skeptical about some of their more radical ideas as well as their ability to deliver, but I'm detecting an unusual amount of piling on in this thread using reasons that other more popular KS games seem to get a pass.
yeah but Crowfall hasn't said that it couldn't finish it and needed more.
Star Citizen is a bit different in that they have never said that they couldn't finish and needed more, they just continued to raise money.
Probably the same situation but since they have never said "oh my we can't finish" they are given some slack.
So you're saying it's all abut the PR spin and honesty gets you in trouble
Caspien has posted again and now appears to admit that they cannot launch the game without the additional 2-3 million bucks:
A. We get Kickstarted (Not kickfinished) and we develop the minimally viable game B. We take the minimally viable game, demonstrating the team's ability to deliver the game to the world, and we get additional funding from it C. We take the additional funding and we finish the complete game, test it, host it, and launch it.
So if your question is, does A lead to C? The answer is yes. If your question is does A lead to C without stopping at B, the answer is no.
This now seems in clear violation of the Kickstarter Policy. I personally do not see any wiggle room. For all it's faults, at least Pathfinder Online clearly stated on their first Kickstarter that it was just funding needed to create their proof of concept and not the game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Did anyone else think this part sounded wrong? It says, between employee salaries, contract fees, medical/dental insurance, license fees, software purchases, rent, other insurances, internet fees, hosting fees, computers and furniture, and taxes, the money won't last forever. So are they saying that the $900,000 that they earned from Kickstarter went to their medical/dental insurance and furniture? They don't need medical and dental insurance to finish the game, so why was that mentioned? Those are added expenses; some people have to pay out of pocket for dental insurance, and not every job includes dental insurance. That has absolutely nothing to do with completing CoE.
"I have found a desire within myself that no experience in this world can satisfy; the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." ~ C. S. Lewis
Well getting back to what I responded to, Star Citizen is definitely not getting made (nor was it ever going to be) for their original $2 Mil KS funding goal no matter what the KS site may have to say about the KS goal being what is needed for a completed project.
None of these large projects that use KS to generate buzz and get the fund raising started are,
What can I say? Had the Chronicles of Elyria people said they needed the money to get from A - B - and that B could get them to C, they wouldn't be receiving flak.
Star Citizen just trundles along, head down, keeps receiving money from selling ships and never mentions that they can't finish with the initial money they received. My guess is that their "spin" is that they would have made one type of game with that 2 million but because they have received more money they will add moar!
It makes it look like the additional money they raised made it possible for them to create a more robust game.
Perception is a big piece of the puzzle.
There is a difference between "we raised 2 million but really need 51 million plus in order to complete the game"
and
"we raised 2 million but because we were able to raise more money we have decided to add more features to add value to the game.
The same thing happened, they raised 2 million from Kickstarter and then raised additional money but the perception is more the latter than the former.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I read a interview with the devs about this after all this came to head yesterday. In the interview they stated that they will not be doing another kickstarter nor would they be asking for more funding from players. Now if they hold to those statements then this is a non-issue unless they don't end up making the game at all because they lacked the funding from the beginning. It seems from reading the interview that something might have happened, but they were always looking for more money outside of the kickstarter.
The problem was, and still is many were lead to believe that they were good to go if they reached the goal from the kickstarter. They were asking for way to little to begin with and most players already knew this. It normally will cost anywhere between 5 million - 10 million today to make a decent MMO. And you notice I said decent not great there. So saying that you bascially were going to be good to go on 2 million to begin with was a bad choice on their part. This is where PR and Marketing departments are important in development.
They did say that they would still be looking for more funding when the kickstarter was launched. But anyone who couldn't see this coming was either blind or just a plain idiot to begin with. They still need at least 2 million to complete the game but want 3 million more as it would make things easier, their own words.
Did anyone else think this part sounded wrong? It says, between employee salaries, contract fees, medical/dental insurance, license fees, software purchases, rent, other insurances, internet fees, hosting fees, computers and furniture, and taxes, the money won't last forever. So are they saying that the $900,000 that they earned from Kickstarter went to their medical/dental insurance and furniture? They don't need medical and dental insurance to finish the game, so why was that mentioned? Those are added expenses; some people have to pay out of pocket for dental insurance, and not every job includes dental insurance. That has absolutely nothing to do with completing CoE.
Eh, they had their fun, lived off almost a million dollars of other people's money for a while. What's the worst that can happen to them? Seriously, what's the worst possible thing that can happen to them? No matter what, they come out on top. I think it's more justification and being on the defense now than anything else.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Read about the game didn't seem worth the investment with the rout they were taking to development I don't think many casual games are going to go for COE anyways.
Did anyone else think this part sounded wrong? It says, between employee salaries, contract fees, medical/dental insurance, license fees, software purchases, rent, other insurances, internet fees, hosting fees, computers and furniture, and taxes, the money won't last forever. So are they saying that the $900,000 that they earned from Kickstarter went to their medical/dental insurance and furniture? They don't need medical and dental insurance to finish the game, so why was that mentioned? Those are added expenses; some people have to pay out of pocket for dental insurance, and not every job includes dental insurance. That has absolutely nothing to do with completing CoE.
Eh, they had their fun, lived off almost a million dollars of other people's money for a while. What's the worst that can happen to them? Seriously, what's the worst possible thing that can happen to them? No matter what, they come out on top. I think it's more justification and being on the defense now than anything else.
Kickstarters never give the details about how they will manage the money. Some people think every penny will go to the game but it's a job and like any job they need all the stuff they mentioned for their employees. As to the rest, people are trusting that they won't go out and buy that new BMW that just came out, but there's nothing stopping them from doing just that.
The system is basically built on trust and if you don't know them personally you're trusting strangers to do what they say they'll do with your money.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I was stupid enough to back this game and posted my feelings on Kickstarter.
My first issue is simply stated when you see a project on Kickstarter, the poster is asked to list the dollar amount needed "to complete the project" Often multiple funding sources are used; e.g. the project group's seed money, the KickStarter and an intention to seek additional investment. In this case, it was clearly stated this team felt they needed $900K indicating they had more than $500K already invested themselves and $500K from family and friends. In other words, a budget just about $1.9 MM Too little? Maybe but it is what they stated in the KickStarter. At no time did they indicate they needed millions more....They collected $1.3 MM exceeding their goal.
Now we are led to believe this is far short of what they needed and oh, "this was clear to everyone all along" (sic) Oh and at the same time in the same post, they shut off any refunds updating their "refund policy"
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. What was I thinking?
Caveat Empor!
Sorry all future crowdfunding seekers, I'm out. Thank morons like Chis Roberts and these fools. They ruined it for you; really too bad when excellent games like Wasteland 2 and Divinity Original Sin probably wouldn't have been made without crowdfunding.
Did anyone else think this part sounded wrong? It says, between employee salaries, contract fees, medical/dental insurance, license fees, software purchases, rent, other insurances, internet fees, hosting fees, computers and furniture, and taxes, the money won't last forever. So are they saying that the $900,000 that they earned from Kickstarter went to their medical/dental insurance and furniture? They don't need medical and dental insurance to finish the game, so why was that mentioned? Those are added expenses; some people have to pay out of pocket for dental insurance, and not every job includes dental insurance. That has absolutely nothing to do with completing CoE.
Do you think Soulbound Studios can hire skilled and experienced game developers at minimum wage? They need to offer competitive salary + benefits if they are to get anyone to work for them, just like all the other businesses.
Do you think Soulbound Studios can hire skilled and experienced game developers at minimum wage? They need to offer competitive salary + benefits if they are to get anyone to work for them, just like all the other businesses.
Well great then that a tiny indie studio that lives from kickstarter money offers top salaries and benefits to their employees.
Like I have said many many times over, this title if far to ambitious for their development team. They need to cut their design down a lot or this game will never see the light of day. The lead is a dreamer and while it is nice to dream, they need someone to bring him down to reality. Personally I don't see that happening.
If you funded this game, it is time to move on, giving them more money is a exercise in frustration.
Well great then that a tiny indie studio that lives from kickstarter money offers top salaries and benefits to their employees.
If you do want good and experienced talent working on your side...
...you really have to dig deeper in your pockets. This is what maintains the industry standards as companies do exactly that to keep their talent to attract it to them.
Did anyone else think this part sounded wrong? It says, between employee salaries, contract fees, medical/dental insurance, license fees, software purchases, rent, other insurances, internet fees, hosting fees, computers and furniture, and taxes, the money won't last forever. So are they saying that the $900,000 that they earned from Kickstarter went to their medical/dental insurance and furniture? They don't need medical and dental insurance to finish the game, so why was that mentioned? Those are added expenses; some people have to pay out of pocket for dental insurance, and not every job includes dental insurance. That has absolutely nothing to do with completing CoE.
Bravo to them that they give their employees good benefits. Not sure what jobs you work at but the jobs I work at offer Dental insurance. And vision.
If anything, that is one thing they have done right; given their employees proper benefits.
Also, remember, the salary you get is not what the employer actually pays. Besides benefits there's Social Security Tax and medicare tax among other things. Well, at least if they are US employees.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Did anyone else think this part sounded wrong? It says, between employee salaries, contract fees, medical/dental insurance, license fees, software purchases, rent, other insurances, internet fees, hosting fees, computers and furniture, and taxes, the money won't last forever. So are they saying that the $900,000 that they earned from Kickstarter went to their medical/dental insurance and furniture? They don't need medical and dental insurance to finish the game, so why was that mentioned? Those are added expenses; some people have to pay out of pocket for dental insurance, and not every job includes dental insurance. That has absolutely nothing to do with completing CoE.
Bravo to them that they give their employees good benefits. Not sure what jobs you work at but the jobs I work at offer Dental insurance. And vision.
If anything, that is one thing they have done right; given their employees proper benefits.
Also, remember, the salary you get is not what the employer actually pays. Besides benefits there's Social Security Tax and medicare tax among other things. Well, at least if they are US employees.
Indeed!
Dental inflammation can be deadly, or how about spinal disc herniation that requires surgery.
Well great then that a tiny indie studio that lives from kickstarter money offers top salaries and benefits to their employees.
If you do want good and experienced talent working on your side...
...you really have to dig deeper in your pockets. This is what maintains the industry standards as companies do exactly that to keep their talent to attract it to them.
Those pockets are filled with money that doesn't belong to them.
It was solely, “Hey all, as you know, MMOs are expensive and we’re still working to raise another $2M – $3M, but anything you want to contribute further will help.”
Is that the total budget for the game?
Yes. That’s what we anticipate is necessary to finish the game completely – including building all the additional content, hiring additional staff, and getting it out the door.
He should be named Kirby.. obviously he lives in Dreamland.
Comments
The dude above you totally missed the point.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If they actually manage to produce it, that is...
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
A. We get Kickstarted (Not kickfinished) and we develop the minimally viable game
B. We take the minimally viable game, demonstrating the team's ability to deliver the game to the world, and we get additional funding from it
C. We take the additional funding and we finish the complete game, test it, host it, and launch it.
So if your question is, does A lead to C? The answer is yes. If your question is does A lead to C without stopping at B, the answer is no.
This now seems in clear violation of the Kickstarter Policy. I personally do not see any wiggle room. For all it's faults, at least Pathfinder Online clearly stated on their first Kickstarter that it was just funding needed to create their proof of concept and not the game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Star Citizen just trundles along, head down, keeps receiving money from selling ships and never mentions that they can't finish with the initial money they received. My guess is that their "spin" is that they would have made one type of game with that 2 million but because they have received more money they will add moar!
It makes it look like the additional money they raised made it possible for them to create a more robust game.
Perception is a big piece of the puzzle.
There is a difference between "we raised 2 million but really need 51 million plus in order to complete the game"
and
"we raised 2 million but because we were able to raise more money we have decided to add more features to add value to the game.
The same thing happened, they raised 2 million from Kickstarter and then raised additional money but the perception is more the latter than the former.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You can't even buy a full rack Oracle DB server for 900k; and whoever hosts their services is going to want millions.
The problem was, and still is many were lead to believe that they were good to go if they reached the goal from the kickstarter. They were asking for way to little to begin with and most players already knew this. It normally will cost anywhere between 5 million - 10 million today to make a decent MMO. And you notice I said decent not great there. So saying that you bascially were going to be good to go on 2 million to begin with was a bad choice on their part. This is where PR and Marketing departments are important in development.
They did say that they would still be looking for more funding when the kickstarter was launched. But anyone who couldn't see this coming was either blind or just a plain idiot to begin with. They still need at least 2 million to complete the game but want 3 million more as it would make things easier, their own words.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
The system is basically built on trust and if you don't know them personally you're trusting strangers to do what they say they'll do with your money.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
My first issue is simply stated when you see a project on Kickstarter, the poster is asked to list the dollar amount needed "to complete the project" Often multiple funding sources are used; e.g. the project group's seed money, the KickStarter and an intention to seek additional investment. In this case, it was clearly stated this team felt they needed $900K indicating they had more than $500K already invested themselves and $500K from family and friends. In other words, a budget just about $1.9 MM Too little? Maybe but it is what they stated in the KickStarter. At no time did they indicate they needed millions more....They collected $1.3 MM exceeding their goal.
Now we are led to believe this is far short of what they needed and oh, "this was clear to everyone all along" (sic) Oh and at the same time in the same post, they shut off any refunds updating their "refund policy"
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. What was I thinking?
Caveat Empor!
Sorry all future crowdfunding seekers, I'm out. Thank morons like Chis Roberts and these fools. They ruined it for you; really too bad when excellent games like Wasteland 2 and Divinity Original Sin probably wouldn't have been made without crowdfunding.
Seaspite
Playing ESO on my X-Box
If you funded this game, it is time to move on, giving them more money is a exercise in frustration.
...you really have to dig deeper in your pockets. This is what maintains the industry standards as companies do exactly that to keep their talent to attract it to them.
If anything, that is one thing they have done right; given their employees proper benefits.
Also, remember, the salary you get is not what the employer actually pays. Besides benefits there's Social Security Tax and medicare tax among other things. Well, at least if they are US employees.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Indeed!
Dental inflammation can be deadly, or how about spinal disc herniation that requires surgery.
Jeez..
MAGA
It was solely, “Hey all, as you know, MMOs are expensive and we’re still working to raise another $2M – $3M, but anything you want to contribute further will help.”
Is that the total budget for the game?
Yes. That’s what we anticipate is necessary to finish the game completely – including building all the additional content, hiring additional staff, and getting it out the door.
He should be named Kirby.. obviously he lives in Dreamland.