EVE Online is the ONLY good, challenging MMORPG that currently exists

TheScavenger

I just got done trying Legion, and sadly its the easiest WoW has ever been. I have less buttons to push than I did even WoD, if you can imagine that. On top of that, WoW is just easy mode in general. You can do the hardest raids in the game, get the best items...but you never lose the items. You will dominate for the rest of the expansion, till the cycle repeats like a rat in a maze. This isn't just a problem with WoW, but every sandbox.

Sadly, Vanguard Saga of heroes died. It was the only MMO that offered a true challenge like EVE did. Well SWG and oldschool MMOs like UO and Asheron's Call and even the first Everquest...but as far as modern/sorta recent MMOs go, Vanguard was a great MMO for grouping and a challenging, but very immersive world.

EVE Online is the last of the challenging MMORPGs that focus on player interaction and grouping. Now personally, I love a challenge, and I love to group. But, for those who like to solo. Granted, it IS possible to play entirely solo. My friend (as a challenge) has lived in a system that barely sees anyone, and no one even goes in the surrounding systems barely. A few people at most will he ever actually run into. He has lived here supposedly for 3 months now, and has a bunch of planet bases setup and random stuff around. No idea where he is, since its on an alt account and he won't even tell me ( ) but guess he has made a TON of ISK just crafting/planet bases and has had fun pvping the random people he sometimes encounters.

So back onto my own experience. EVE is a truly challenging MMO. Unlike recent themeparks, you won't get max "levels" (skills) in a week (or less)...it takes time to actually train your character, literal time. It takes skill (player skill) to PvP people...you can even do it in starting frigate (I've done it, very fun, but definitely better with a group lol).

Sadly, MMOs keep getting easier and easier. Challenging MMOs (wildstar, vanguard saga of heroes, SWG) all die off. There isn't any modern MMO I can think of that offers a challenge like EVE does.

But thank goodness for EVE Online I doubt I'd even play a MMO besides EVE, because all these new fancy shiny MMOs are so easy. And don't ever get me started on GW2, the easiest MMO I ever played lol.

Its just a sad state in the MMO industry where MMOs keep getting dumbed down. Just like schools are in the US. But CCP is an amazing company, and EVE Online (which I have been subbed to for 2 and a half months now) is by far the best and only MMO to play. At least if you want an actual challenge, a REAL MMO experience where you can actually group and do stuff like you are supposed to in an MMO.

Love EVE

TheScavenger

Err, when I said "every sandbox" in the beginning. I meant "every themepark", but I was thinking mostly of sandboxes when I wrote that post. Sorry for that mistake lol. Doesn't seem I can edit my post for some reason to fix it, or the button is hidden or something.

Velifax

There is an edit button somewhere, I thought.

Dont forget P99 exists! EverQuest in all its glory before the new zeitgeist infested online play.

Edit; posted before I noticed you specified modern. Still, Eve is hardly more modern than EverQuest, is it? Release dates are fairly close, I thought.

Malcanis

EVE has been updated just a tad more consistently though.

Malcanis

Robokapp said:

Eve's about it indeed.

sad. I like fantasy.


but as the forums will tell you, it's a great time for MMOs. piece of crap F2Ps are born and fizzle all the time so it's never been a better time to...uh...yea.

I like fantasty too, but it would be really difficult to translate some of the things that make EVE any good to a fantasy setting.

Probably the biggest barrier is that in EVE, your "character class" is your ship: You can switch from "Rogue" to "Healer" to "Shaman" to... yeah a whole bunch of analogous classs by changing the ship you're flying. And even if your character has "multiclassed" All The Skills™, that doesn't directly translate into being able to apply all the class skills at any one time. You might have all the many millions of SP worth of skills to fly an Apostle perfectly, but that won't give you a particle of "Healer" ability on the field if you're actually flying a Hound. Most fantasy settings have character power expressed through intrinsic ability, not hull bonuses and fitting slots.

Likewise, fantasy settings are a challenge to adapt to the resource consumption that EVE combat drives. It's harder to make mining into a viable player profession when swords last for years and even if you die, they're lootable - and when the swords that people want are the magic swords, where 99% of the value doesn't come from the metal. The fantasy setting needs some kind of routine resource destruction/consumption to make productive professions work in the way they do in EVE. I guess that an enterprising designer might make an equivalent of EVE's T2 production with a sufficiently involved alchemy/enchantment system?

Elsabolts

New folks are considered Prey, no more on less. High secerity ganks and getting folks to quit are the rage.

Copperfield

if you consider time that needs to spend in order to the succesfull.. yes agree EVE is TOP notch then

Also not really a fan of spreadsheet combat..

little tip: come play with pro's  @ rise of agon..

freaksoldier99

TheScavenger said:

I just got done trying Legion, and sadly its the easiest WoW has ever been. I have less buttons to push than I did even WoD, if you can imagine that. On top of that, WoW is just easy mode in general. You can do the hardest raids in the game, get the best items...but you never lose the items. You will dominate for the rest of the expansion, till the cycle repeats like a rat in a maze. This isn't just a problem with WoW, but every sandbox.

Sadly, Vanguard Saga of heroes died. It was the only MMO that offered a true challenge like EVE did. Well SWG and oldschool MMOs like UO and Asheron's Call and even the first Everquest...but as far as modern/sorta recent MMOs go, Vanguard was a great MMO for grouping and a challenging, but very immersive world.

EVE Online is the last of the challenging MMORPGs that focus on player interaction and grouping. Now personally, I love a challenge, and I love to group. But, for those who like to solo. Granted, it IS possible to play entirely solo. My friend (as a challenge) has lived in a system that barely sees anyone, and no one even goes in the surrounding systems barely. A few people at most will he ever actually run into. He has lived here supposedly for 3 months now, and has a bunch of planet bases setup and random stuff around. No idea where he is, since its on an alt account and he won't even tell me ( ) but guess he has made a TON of ISK just crafting/planet bases and has had fun pvping the random people he sometimes encounters.

So back onto my own experience. EVE is a truly challenging MMO. Unlike recent themeparks, you won't get max "levels" (skills) in a week (or less)...it takes time to actually train your character, literal time. It takes skill (player skill) to PvP people...you can even do it in starting frigate (I've done it, very fun, but definitely better with a group lol).

Sadly, MMOs keep getting easier and easier. Challenging MMOs (wildstar, vanguard saga of heroes, SWG) all die off. There isn't any modern MMO I can think of that offers a challenge like EVE does.

But thank goodness for EVE Online I doubt I'd even play a MMO besides EVE, because all these new fancy shiny MMOs are so easy. And don't ever get me started on GW2, the easiest MMO I ever played lol.

Its just a sad state in the MMO industry where MMOs keep getting dumbed down. Just like schools are in the US. But CCP is an amazing company, and EVE Online (which I have been subbed to for 2 and a half months now) is by far the best and only MMO to play. At least if you want an actual challenge, a REAL MMO experience where you can actually group and do stuff like you are supposed to in an MMO.

Love EVE

i have to disagree 

Darkfall the only true full loot hardcore pvp game

Krematory

Elsabolts said:

New folks are considered Prey, no more on less. High secerity ganks and getting folks to quit are the rage.

Dude, you've been spewing these very same ignorance fueled lies for years now, get over it.

Distopia

Probably because the most important factor for a AAA MMORPG is mass appeal. The harder the everyday content the less mass appeal a game will hold. It's not a hard concept to understand. IF you want hard games, MMORPGs for the most part are not the place to look in this day and age, outside of a few outlying niche titles where corporate profits aren't the chief driving force behind development.

Malcanis

Elsabolts said:

New folks are considered Prey, no more on less. High secerity ganks and getting folks to quit are the rage.

2008 called, it wants it's poorly informed, still angry after all these years about getting banned for RMTing its character, by now a figure of fun talking point back.

Distopia

If you want some challenging games, try Men of War games, WarGame: Air land battle or others in the franchise, ARMA 3 etc.. These types of games are where I go if I want to find a challenge, they truly require tactics, which I've never truly found in MMORPGs.

Malcanis

If you actually think EVE doesn't require tactics then you've never been in actual PvP.

Tamanous

Is why I only play vanilla atm. Waiting for these more old school indie mmos to release and see how they are.

The current retail mmo industry is dead to me.

Distopia

Malcanis said:

If you actually think EVE doesn't require tactics then you've never been in actual PvP.

Yes and some Raids in themeparks do as well, but it's not something that you experience off the bat, and it's not what makes up a majority of the experience.

As for MMORPG PVP tactics, it's a far cry from the types of tactics needed in games like Wargame or Men of War. If you think it's the same you've never played those titles. 

beebop500

I've never tried Eve but I'm guessing the OP has at least something of a point.  The crop of MMOs for the past five-plus years has involved little but f2p after f2p, an attempt to appeal to Everyman, and an equal attempt to get players to buy lockboxes and/or pony up for "features" that are part of most decent p2p titles.  Eve looks like it requires thought in order to succeed, and I'm pretty sure we all know where thinking sits with most of the MMO crowd now.  If it's not on their Twitter feed, they're not interested.

Distopia

Do the eve fans have any argument, hitting LOL with no rebuttal is a cowards game.

For starters flanking doesn't have the same effect, as directional fire is not accounted for. That type of thing is a part real combat tactics, MMORPGs do not account for that type of strategy, in most cases hitting someone from behind is no different than hitting someone from the front. 

The only types of tactics that truly work in most MMO's is boxing folks in, funneling them into hard to maneuver situations or throwing the right class(skill loadout) into the right scenario. That is not the same as military tactical titles. 

Malcanis

Distopia said:

Do the eve fans have any argument, hitting LOL with no rebuttal is a cowards game.

For starters flanking doesn't have the same effect, as directional fire is not accounted for. That type of thing is a part real combat tactics, MMORPGs do not account for that type of strategy, in most cases hitting someone from behind is no different than hitting someone from the front. 

The only types of tactics that truly work in most MMO's is boxing folks in, funneling them into hard to maneuver situations or throwing the right class(skill loadout) into the right scenario. That is not the same as military tactical titles. 

So that one specific instantiation of one tactical mechanic is absolutely necessary for "tactical" gameplay. Speed, range, alpha, damage types, crowd control, cloaking, positioning, alignment, spying, diplomacy, logistics,morale, propoganda, all of those things are irrelevent: no flanking, no tactics. Distopia has spoken! Let this end all dispute!

Quazal.A

Malcanis said:

Distopia said:

Do the eve fans have any argument, hitting LOL with no rebuttal is a cowards game.

For starters flanking doesn't have the same effect, as directional fire is not accounted for. That type of thing is a part real combat tactics, MMORPGs do not account for that type of strategy, in most cases hitting someone from behind is no different than hitting someone from the front. 

The only types of tactics that truly work in most MMO's is boxing folks in, funneling them into hard to maneuver situations or throwing the right class(skill loadout) into the right scenario. That is not the same as military tactical titles. 

So that one specific instantiation of one tactical mechanic is absolutely necessary for "tactical" gameplay. Speed, range, alpha, damage types, crowd control, cloaking, positioning, alignment, spying, diplomacy, logistics,morale, propoganda, all of those things are irrelevent: no flanking, no tactics. Distopia has spoken! Let this end all dispute!

also flanking to a certain point does exist, having a 2nd fleet (or group) take the longer route around and attack from behind, thus trapping your opposing fleet in the middle would be consider by the cavalry as flanking, so it in fact does exist, just not in the direct format explained

Distopia

Malcanis said:

Distopia said:

Do the eve fans have any argument, hitting LOL with no rebuttal is a cowards game.

For starters flanking doesn't have the same effect, as directional fire is not accounted for. That type of thing is a part real combat tactics, MMORPGs do not account for that type of strategy, in most cases hitting someone from behind is no different than hitting someone from the front. 

The only types of tactics that truly work in most MMO's is boxing folks in, funneling them into hard to maneuver situations or throwing the right class(skill loadout) into the right scenario. That is not the same as military tactical titles. 

So that one specific instantiation of one tactical mechanic is absolutely necessary for "tactical" gameplay. Speed, range, alpha, damage types, crowd control, cloaking, positioning, alignment, spying, diplomacy, logistics,morale, propoganda, all of those things are irrelevent: no flanking, no tactics. Distopia has spoken! Let this end all dispute!

I was just using one example, that certainly isn't the only tactic that gets thrown away due to the nature of MMORPG combat as well as hit boxes. 

All of the catch words you just threw out are in no way exclusive to EVE's combat, Stealth, CC, Spies, etc.. have been used in RPG games for eons (we used those things constantly in games like DAOC and SWG). That didn't make those games tactical in nature or challenging by default.

You do also realize my original point about tactics was referring more to PVE aspects of a game, and not solitary scenarios you might find in PVP or a raid... 

Kahrek

Distopia said:

Do the eve fans have any argument, hitting LOL with no rebuttal is a cowards game.

For starters flanking doesn't have the same effect, as directional fire is not accounted for. That type of thing is a part real combat tactics, MMORPGs do not account for that type of strategy, in most cases hitting someone from behind is no different than hitting someone from the front. 

The only types of tactics that truly work in most MMO's is boxing folks in, funneling them into hard to maneuver situations or throwing the right class(skill loadout) into the right scenario. That is not the same as military tactical titles. 

Eve has deep but different tactical elements compared to traditional war games.

There is no facing or angles of fire. Those are replaced with velocity, range and traverse. In a nutshell the galactic game of rock, paper, particle cannon works with range and position. For the 100's of rank and file soldiers targeting the correct enemy and positioning your craft is all that needs to happen.

You have the FC who handles the grand plan, usually a support (healer) wing that will have it's own little thing going on and then all the wheels in the machine that place traps to hold the enemy in place (bubbles). Tackle enemy ships to stop them from running off. Kill off enemy tacklers or stop the enemy from placing bubbles. There is order amidst the chaos but it is chaos (as real war is).

I played an interdictor pilot for years (Kahrek Laume, look me up) and I can tell you that knowing when and where to be, when to get there and how to get the hell out when needed are all essential skills. There is allot of spreadsheet in EVE I grant you that much but there is also a skill element that cannot be denied.

You can land a small ship in the middle of 200 enemy battleships, drop a bubble and get out if you are skillful. You can usually do 2 of the 3 (your choice) if you are average and if you are bad then you are in the wrong place and get killed nearly instantly.

Wow wall of text. Sorry, I take this to heart. Okay short list if you are still reading

If your guns cannot rotate fast enough to follow the enemy ship you will miss nearly all your shots.

If your guns do not have the range to hit enemies you will miss all your shots.

There are 4 damage and resist types, having the wrong type of damage or ammo means you are not nearly as effective as you should be (or nearly useless in some cases)

Hit and run tactics are very viable in EVE. Being in Black Legion since before it was Black Legion I can tell you allot about fighting 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 and it is entirely feasible if your commander knows how and where you need to be for best effect

Intelligence warfare and spying are an integral part of the game. No dice rolls or 50/50 odds here, real people spying on chats, boards or even in your fleet. Your "friend" could be setting you up. There are no in game giveaways or warnings. Trust and paranoia are both tools and weapons

The list can go on for pages, all to say that there is a massive depth to EVE that only those who are willing to stick to it for a while can grasp and I will be honest here and say that I have never, ever, seen that in any other game, MMO or not.

Cheers,

Kahrek Laume
Galactic asshole and bubble boy.

Distopia

Quazal.A said:

Malcanis said:

Distopia said:

Do the eve fans have any argument, hitting LOL with no rebuttal is a cowards game.

For starters flanking doesn't have the same effect, as directional fire is not accounted for. That type of thing is a part real combat tactics, MMORPGs do not account for that type of strategy, in most cases hitting someone from behind is no different than hitting someone from the front. 

The only types of tactics that truly work in most MMO's is boxing folks in, funneling them into hard to maneuver situations or throwing the right class(skill loadout) into the right scenario. That is not the same as military tactical titles. 

So that one specific instantiation of one tactical mechanic is absolutely necessary for "tactical" gameplay. Speed, range, alpha, damage types, crowd control, cloaking, positioning, alignment, spying, diplomacy, logistics,morale, propoganda, all of those things are irrelevent: no flanking, no tactics. Distopia has spoken! Let this end all dispute!

also flanking to a certain point does exist, having a 2nd fleet (or group) take the longer route around and attack from behind, thus trapping your opposing fleet in the middle would be consider by the cavalry as flanking, so it in fact does exist, just not in the direct format explained

Yep works in most MMOs, which I was referring to that here :"The only types of tactics that truly work in most MMO's is boxing folks in and  funneling them into hard to maneuver situations" 

Distopia

Kahrek said:

Distopia said:

Do the eve fans have any argument, hitting LOL with no rebuttal is a cowards game.

For starters flanking doesn't have the same effect, as directional fire is not accounted for. That type of thing is a part real combat tactics, MMORPGs do not account for that type of strategy, in most cases hitting someone from behind is no different than hitting someone from the front. 

The only types of tactics that truly work in most MMO's is boxing folks in, funneling them into hard to maneuver situations or throwing the right class(skill loadout) into the right scenario. That is not the same as military tactical titles. 

Eve has deep but different tactical elements compared to traditional war games.

There is no facing or angles of fire. Those are replaced with velocity, range and traverse. In a nutshell the galactic game of rock, paper, particle cannon works with range and position. For the 100's of rank and file soldiers targeting the correct enemy and positioning your craft is all that needs to happen.

You have the FC who handles the grand plan, usually a support (healer) wing that will have it's own little thing going on and then all the wheels in the machine that place traps to hold the enemy in place (bubbles). Tackle enemy ships to stop them from running off. Kill off enemy tacklers or stop the enemy from placing bubbles. There is order amidst the chaos but it is chaos (as real war is).

I played an interdictor pilot for years (Kahrek Laume, look me up) and I can tell you that knowing when and where to be, when to get there and how to get the hell out when needed are all essential skills. There is allot of spreadsheet in EVE I grant you that much but there is also a skill element that cannot be denied.

You can land a small ship in the middle of 200 enemy battleships, drop a bubble and get out if you are skillful. You can usually do 2 of the 3 (your choice) if you are average and if you are bad then you are in the wrong place and get killed nearly instantly.

Wow wall of text. Sorry, I take this to heart. Okay short list if you are still reading

If your guns cannot rotate fast enough to follow the enemy ship you will miss nearly all your shots.

If your guns do not have the range to hit enemies you will miss all your shots.

There are 4 damage and resist types, having the wrong type of damage or ammo means you are not nearly as effective as you should be (or nearly useless in some cases)

Hit and run tactics are very viable in EVE. Being in Black Legion since before it was Black Legion I can tell you allot about fighting 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 and it is entirely feasible if your commander knows how and where you need to be for best effect

Intelligence warfare and spying are an integral part of the game. No dice rolls or 50/50 odds here, real people spying on chats, boards or even in your fleet. Your "friend" could be setting you up. There are no in game giveaways or warnings. Trust and paranoia are both tools and weapons

The list can go on for pages, all to say that there is a massive depth to EVE that only those who are willing to stick to it for a while can grasp and I will be honest here and say that I have never, ever, seen that in any other game, MMO or not.

Cheers,

Kahrek Laume
Galactic asshole and bubble boy.

To me it sounds a lot like SWG pre-cu's PVP environment. I also want to point out I was not even commenting toward eve originally, my point was about the MMORPG genre as a whole and it's focus on challenge (or lack there of ). Especially in regard to playing against the game, PVP wasn't even on my mind when I made that statement. Malcanis took issue with it anyway like I was knocking EVE. 

MasoodVoon

I think this post is a bit of a generalization. Maybe it's time for a break from MMO's. I do agree EVE is pretty cool though. Most of that is because the game framework creates a competitive PVP environment through the sandbox. In some ways though you are beholden to the doings of the large & powerful coalitions of NC., PH, and GSF, that if you are a smaller fish you get your game destroyed and not because of your skill or your team's skill. So that kind of kills your argument.

Phaserlight

I have no doubt that Eve is a great game, but it's not the only extant MMORPG that focuses on these types of interactions.

I *almost* feel guilty for bringing it up, but there is that game I've been playing for considerably longer than the last zodiac cycle:

http://www.mmobro.com/vendetta-online-eves-unsung-competitor/

DiSpLiFF

Just because a game requires a massive time sink doesn't make it "hard" just makes it a massive time sink. Basically what I think of when I think of games like - Darkfall or Eve. You mentioned that Legion is too easy.. Just because a lot of stuff is accessible doesn't necessarily make it easy. I would argue that maybe 5% - 10% of the WoW community actually experiences the "hardest" raids etc. Anyways, we see these types of rants once a month and just need to clarify, time sink does not equal hard.