The temptation of making money from peoples guilty desires is too much for these developers.
It's Dragon sickness. They see the pot of gold and can't resist. It changes them. Very few developers and publishers can fight the urge.
I don't see it as a "Good vs. Evil" thing, although it is, kind of, if you consider "good" to be a healthy game.
I think Overwatch shows that you can make money with a box-priced online game, and you can even sell cosmetics to ensure a constant income stream. The trick is doing it in a way that the majority of the playerbase is ok with, or even likes.
The way some of these f2p MMO companies do it, it's like extortion. I think that obviously makes money in the short term, but overtime I have doubts. And as a gamer, it's obviously not fun to play a game that is designed to inconvenience me. So I don't think these systems will last in the long term.
You can just keep pumping out more and more of these games as they implode due to customer unrest, and companies do that, but it's such a toxic way of doing business.
I mean, people make money ripping off old people with phone call scams. It does make money, but it doesn't mean that's the best or only way to make money.
@FlyByKnight, You do realise that making games is a job? It's something done to make money and pay bills.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
P2W is a myth in most successful mmos that have cash shops today. Swtor, lotro, ESO even WoW have nothing you can buy in their shops that make you win or give you an advantage. Sorry that guy who got a cool outfit from the shop doesn't have an advantage over me...and never will.
Its good to see the OP really dug in and did some research before creating a thread about it...he may have a calling to be a journalist because that's pretty much how today's journalism works.
All of those titles you've listed have something in common, they started as sub only titles, have been out for quite some time now, and have western origins.
The heaviest complaints generally are about more modern, eastern origin games which employ more onerous monetization practices.
Then you have an older, western title like EVE which appears to sell advantage in multiple ways, yet somehow the design almost totally negates any umbalance.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't have a problem with microtransactions. What I do have a problem with is microstransactions having anything to do with the integrity of the actual gameplay. It's low brow.
Just the fact that people are correlating p2w/grind is bad. The "grind" is a function that is now being leveraged to upsell p2w or "convenience items". It's purposely creating a disease and price gouging the antidote.
The reason why this type of business model is so rampant in the mobile space is because that market wasn't taken seriously in the beginning and unregulated. Consumers also didn't take their mobile app purchases as seriously. Now mobile has grown into a HUGE viable game market but the same practices are still present.
I wish publishers and developers left these practcies in the mobile space. When it comes to console, and PC games there needs to be push back on what is acceptable. It's NOT good for the industry. I find it laughable that there are actual gamers who applaud this type of f%#kery.
Why stop at games? How about watching a great movie, but being upsold on watching a color graded scene in full CG, or the flat scene with green screens still in the shot? Why not? It's the same story right?
F#%ck it. Because it's about what people can afford and not the integrity of the medium and art. It's about making money.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
P2W is a myth in most successful mmos that have cash shops today. Swtor, lotro, ESO even WoW have nothing you can buy in their shops that make you win or give you an advantage. Sorry that guy who got a cool outfit from the shop doesn't have an advantage over me...and never will.
Its good to see the OP really dug in and did some research before creating a thread about it...he may have a calling to be a journalist because that's pretty much how today's journalism works.
All of those titles you've listed have something in common, they started as sub only titles, have been out for quite some time now, and have western origins.
The heaviest complaints generally are about more modern, eastern origin games which employ more onerous monetization practices.
Then you have an older, western title like EVE which appears to sell advantage in multiple ways, yet somehow the design almost totally negates any umbalance.
Then don't play the Asian games if their cash shop is an issue for you. There are plenty of games western and eastern that don't have P2W elements these games far outnumber any game that have this made up p2w element.
P2W, microtransactions and DLC are not the same thing. They can potentially overlap, so it's a messy way to view monetization by lumping them together.
A DLC that's a costume is a microtransaction, but isn't P2W
A DLC like Ashes of Andariel is an expansion, but it isn't a microtransaction nor P2W.
A 100% upgrade item in a game where upgrades fail at a high rate is P2W and a microtransaction, but it's not DLC .
I do think we'll continue to get P2W games, but I also think enough information is out there that companies will choose monetization models they believe will suit their audience vs the last 5 years where everyone was trying out every F2P model they could in hopes of catching the whales. It was never sustainable and I think they've realized that.
Games are always experimenting to see what works. What new games have successfully shifted away from the F2P model? None.
I think people need to stop pre-ordering so they don't take putting out low quality games that take a year to fix for granted.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
@holdenhamlet, ever walk into a grocery store and demand, Free 2 Eat? Ever walk into a movie theater and demand Free 2 Watch. Ever walk into a car dealership and say Free 2 Own. Ever walk into a bank and say Free 2 Take Money. That last one is clearly theft. Non-Spending Customer enter forums and demand games be Play 4 Free (having absolutely no cost to them). That is why they must be extorted into paying for their game play.
There was some hoax story that 28% of gamers spend money. What that story said is that of the 10k asked 28% SAID they would be willing to spend money. Saying and doing are two different things. And it doesn't count until it is done.
BTW Cosmetic is just a code word for things we have no intention of buying. So filling a cash shop with things that hard core gamers won't buy, just frees them from having to spend money.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
A new study on microtransactions by NPD Group found that about 1/3 of the US gaming population (based on 10k surveyed) has purchased some sort of extra content in the last 3 months. So, so much more the shitty fraction of a percentage of conversions. Maybe just in high-priced mobile games?
If that doesn't blow your mind, the part that will really make you cringe is the fact that nearly 80% of people said they would consider spending money to get stuff like weapons or power-ups. Yet, 70% of games felt that the P2W aspect of microtransactions was "unfortunate"...... as they sharpened the blade on their +12 Sword or Reckoning (on sale now for only $9.99).
I didn't read the actual report, but I concluded, based on the article, that we'll probably see more P2W before we see less, and it doesn't really seem like the microtransactions are hurting games, really.
Your mistake is that you assume that all microtransactions are pay to win. I have no problem with paying for a game via microtransactions if I like the game and it isn't terribly expensive to get everything I want. Indeed, if I think prices are fair, I'll buy some things that I wouldn't buy if I thought the model was pay to win.
Games are always experimenting to see what works. What new games have successfully shifted away from the F2P model? None.
I think people need to stop pre-ordering so they don't take putting out low quality games that take a year to fix for granted.
And I think if a person wants to pre-order what you think is irrelevant. I have noticed on this site not just this topic there is a lot of worrying about what other people are doing and a total lack of respect for others opinions. A person who pre-orders a video game to get that extra item or whatever doesn't need to validate their purchase with you or anyone. Now if you want to speak up and not pre-order hey that's completely fine and no problems but let's stop telling others what they should be doing based on how you feel.
@FlyByKnight, You do realise that making games is a job? It's something done to make money and pay bills.
It's not JUST a job, and this is a BS retort to the issue.
If it was just about the money there are industries that have better/stable revenue earning potential. If we're seriously going to get black and white about it start there. Switch industries. The gaming market is too risky. Make money and pay bills right?
It's art and entertainment and this is an industry where having some integrity towards the medium is important or it ruins the medium.
Again, I don't understand how any gamer of any type could subscribe to this line of thinking. It's literally voting against your own interests. I live in America though so...
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
@FlyByKnight, You do realise that making games is a job? It's something done to make money and pay bills.
It appears some people think it's a service they should get for free.
It's not about "free".
It's about the integrity of the experience and medium. Full stop.
No it's about entitled little asshat crying it's not free...Full Stop
Incase you didn't know video game revenue is at an all time high. That means millions and millions of people feel the opposite of you...Another Full Stop
@FlyByKnight, You do realise that making games is a job? It's something done to make money and pay bills.
It's not JUST a job, and this is a BS retort to the issue.
If it was just about the money there are industries that have better/stable revenue earning potential. If we're seriously going to get black and white about it start there. Switch industries. The gaming market is too risky. Make money and pay bills right?
It's art and entertainment and this is an industry where having some integrity towards the medium is important or it ruins the medium.
Again, I don't understand how any gamer of any type could subscribe to this line of thinking. It's literally voting against your own interests. I live in America though so...
Because MILLIONS AND MILLIONS don't agree with you...it's really not that hard of a concept to comprehend...Full Stop
@FlyByKnight, You do realise that making games is a job? It's something done to make money and pay bills.
It appears some people think it's a service they should get for free.
It's not about "free".
It's about the integrity of the experience and medium. Full stop.
No it's about entitled little asshat crying it's not free...Full Stop
Incase you didn't know video game revenue is at an all time high. That means millions and millions of people feel the opposite of you...Another Full Stop
You know, caustic and angry is way overdone on these forums, dare to be different.
Sometimes its about giving fair value for services rendered. Not everyone is asking for free things, just an opportunity to get the full gameplay at a fair and reasonable price.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
To be fair, games like SWTOR actually do have some P2W in the form of paying to unlock the use of higher tier gear and expanded reward content.
I'd hardly call P2W the biggest issue with F2P titles though. Underhanded moneymaking schemes have a decent variety of forms in that genre.
That is not p2w lol. They have a monthly sub pay that and get everything. So by your ridiculous logic WoW is pay to win too. You can try it out to level 20 but you need to pay to get better stuff. It's amazing how absolutely uninformed people are.
To be fair, games like SWTOR actually do have some P2W in the form of paying to unlock the use of higher tier gear and expanded reward content.
I'd hardly call P2W the biggest issue with F2P titles though. Underhanded moneymaking schemes have a decent variety of forms in that genre.
That is not p2w lol. They have a monthly sub pay that and get everything. So by your ridiculous logic WoW is pay to win too. You can try it out to level 20 but you need to pay to get better stuff. It's amazing how absolutely uninformed people are.
Actually WOW tokens can be considered P2W by some people's definitions of P2W. As they can be purchased for real cash and sold in game for gold. Also you can sell Champion's Honor for gold on the auction house which you can get for real cash and use them to buy tiered PvP gear. Real cash for real in game rewards, making you a more powerful character regardless if you played for it or paid for it.
I think the real issue with the term 'P2W' is what that term means to each person. No one can seem to agree on what P2W really means as it is a subjective term as to what each individual considers P2W.
Sorry it doesn't matter what your definition of P2W WoW and Swtor are not p2w.
@FlyByKnight, You do realise that making games is a job? It's something done to make money and pay bills.
It's not JUST a job, and this is a BS retort to the issue.
If it was just about the money there are industries that have better/stable revenue earning potential. If we're seriously going to get black and white about it start there. Switch industries. The gaming market is too risky. Make money and pay bills right?
It's art and entertainment and this is an industry where having some integrity towards the medium is important or it ruins the medium.
Again, I don't understand how any gamer of any type could subscribe to this line of thinking. It's literally voting against your own interests. I live in America though so...
Because MILLIONS AND MILLIONS don't agree with you...it's really not that hard of a concept to comprehend...Full Stop
Millions of millions of folks watch the Kardashians on TV. Millions and millions of people bought this album:
Does that make them good? According to your salty Middle America appearing retorts these things are great because "Millions AND Millions".
Millions and millions of people have gambling addictions. Millions and millions get high, and buy sex. Does that mean every entertainment/art medium should pander to lower common donominators because "gotta pay the bills man"?
What type of gamer even talks like this? "Yeah f#%k the gaming experience man, get that money. Gotta keep them entitled asshats in line". Is that the sh!t that's on your mind when you're firing up your rig?
Like I said, I have no problem with microtransactions as long as they aren't leveraged and upsold by manufactured obstacles in the game. I would much rather pay a premium monthly price and have access to the product in its entirety. You know like those entitled asshats who subscribe to Netflix.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
@Loke666, the main point of the game is to make money. Selling the consumer, anything they want is the main point of the transaction and the product.
Those who hate P2W, think some advantage THEY have over others is being bought and sold or taken away. The idea that THEY own an advantage over customers or a company and its product is ludicrous.
Video games sell virtual goods and services. In the real world competitors often go without basic equipment and advantages in training held by those with money to pay for them. That we shouldn't expect the same in the virtual world as we do in the real world is pathetic...
The thing is that you can have few players that pays you loads of money, an average number that pays an average sum or many that pays little. Each of that are successful models moneywise.
What I avoid is games that either cost insanely much to play seriously or games that gets unbalanced because you bought stuff (even if I am the one buying stuff that isn't very fun). It is clearly that you can make a successful MMORPG without either.
Get me right, it is not that I can't afford or is to cheap to pay the devs money they need. I gladly pay monthly fees or buy stuff that doesn't break the games balance.
For an instance can you actually sell playerhousing in a game, the free house could be a shack while people playing could by townhouses, mansions and even castles as long as it doesn't really affect the games balance (and I can tell you that if a game allow you to buy a mansion and furnitures for real money you will get a lot money that way even if the ingame advantages is slim to nil).
Games with too severe pay2win models tend to be a ghosttown pretty soon, whales tire after a while and ordinary player get upset over the pay2win thing. Leechers might still pay but they never buy anything so while you might earn a lot of money initially your long term income isn't very amazing.
@FlyByKnight, You do realise that making games is a job? It's something done to make money and pay bills.
It's not JUST a job, and this is a BS retort to the issue.
If it was just about the money there are industries that have better/stable revenue earning potential. If we're seriously going to get black and white about it start there. Switch industries. The gaming market is too risky. Make money and pay bills right?
It's art and entertainment and this is an industry where having some integrity towards the medium is important or it ruins the medium.
Again, I don't understand how any gamer of any type could subscribe to this line of thinking. It's literally voting against your own interests. I live in America though so...
Because MILLIONS AND MILLIONS don't agree with you...it's really not that hard of a concept to comprehend...Full Stop
Like I said, I have no problem with microtransactions as long as they aren't leveraged and upsold by manufactured obstacles in the game. I would much rather pay a premium monthly price and have access to the product in its entirety. You know like those entitled asshats who subscribe to Netflix.
No what you are saying would be if the entitled little asshats started crying it's not fair and P2w because it cost more to watch 4K on Netflix. Oh man that darn leveraging and upselling 4K content by some manufactured obstacle...
Nope it comes to my mind when I read garbage like you've been posting here...you are a classic example of it.
Comments
I think Overwatch shows that you can make money with a box-priced online game, and you can even sell cosmetics to ensure a constant income stream. The trick is doing it in a way that the majority of the playerbase is ok with, or even likes.
The way some of these f2p MMO companies do it, it's like extortion. I think that obviously makes money in the short term, but overtime I have doubts. And as a gamer, it's obviously not fun to play a game that is designed to inconvenience me. So I don't think these systems will last in the long term.
You can just keep pumping out more and more of these games as they implode due to customer unrest, and companies do that, but it's such a toxic way of doing business.
I mean, people make money ripping off old people with phone call scams. It does make money, but it doesn't mean that's the best or only way to make money.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The heaviest complaints generally are about more modern, eastern origin games which employ more onerous monetization practices.
Then you have an older, western title like EVE which appears to sell advantage in multiple ways, yet somehow the design almost totally negates any umbalance.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Just the fact that people are correlating p2w/grind is bad. The "grind" is a function that is now being leveraged to upsell p2w or "convenience items". It's purposely creating a disease and price gouging the antidote.
The reason why this type of business model is so rampant in the mobile space is because that market wasn't taken seriously in the beginning and unregulated. Consumers also didn't take their mobile app purchases as seriously. Now mobile has grown into a HUGE viable game market but the same practices are still present.
I wish publishers and developers left these practcies in the mobile space. When it comes to console, and PC games there needs to be push back on what is acceptable. It's NOT good for the industry. I find it laughable that there are actual gamers who applaud this type of f%#kery.
Why stop at games? How about watching a great movie, but being upsold on watching a color graded scene in full CG, or the flat scene with green screens still in the shot? Why not? It's the same story right?
F#%ck it. Because it's about what people can afford and not the integrity of the medium and art. It's about making money.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
A DLC that's a costume is a microtransaction, but isn't P2W
A DLC like Ashes of Andariel is an expansion, but it isn't a microtransaction nor P2W.
A 100% upgrade item in a game where upgrades fail at a high rate is P2W and a microtransaction, but it's not DLC .
I do think we'll continue to get P2W games, but I also think enough information is out there that companies will choose monetization models they believe will suit their audience vs the last 5 years where everyone was trying out every F2P model they could in hopes of catching the whales. It was never sustainable and I think they've realized that.
I think people need to stop pre-ordering so they don't take putting out low quality games that take a year to fix for granted.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
There was some hoax story that 28% of gamers spend money. What that story said is that of the 10k asked 28% SAID they would be willing to spend money. Saying and doing are two different things. And it doesn't count until it is done.
BTW Cosmetic is just a code word for things we have no intention of buying. So filling a cash shop with things that hard core gamers won't buy, just frees them from having to spend money.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
If it was just about the money there are industries that have better/stable revenue earning potential. If we're seriously going to get black and white about it start there. Switch industries. The gaming market is too risky. Make money and pay bills right?
It's art and entertainment and this is an industry where having some integrity towards the medium is important or it ruins the medium.
Again, I don't understand how any gamer of any type could subscribe to this line of thinking. It's literally voting against your own interests. I live in America though so...
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's about the integrity of the experience and medium. Full stop.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Incase you didn't know video game revenue is at an all time high. That means millions and millions of people feel the opposite of you...Another Full Stop
Sometimes its about giving fair value for services rendered. Not everyone is asking for free things, just an opportunity to get the full gameplay at a fair and reasonable price.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'd hardly call P2W the biggest issue with F2P titles though. Underhanded moneymaking schemes have a decent variety of forms in that genre.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Does that make them good? According to your salty Middle America appearing retorts these things are great because "Millions AND Millions".
Millions and millions of people have gambling addictions. Millions and millions get high, and buy sex. Does that mean every entertainment/art medium should pander to lower common donominators because "gotta pay the bills man"?
What type of gamer even talks like this? "Yeah f#%k the gaming experience man, get that money. Gotta keep them entitled asshats in line". Is that the sh!t that's on your mind when you're firing up your rig?
Like I said, I have no problem with microtransactions as long as they aren't leveraged and upsold by manufactured obstacles in the game. I would much rather pay a premium monthly price and have access to the product in its entirety. You know like those entitled asshats who subscribe to Netflix.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What I avoid is games that either cost insanely much to play seriously or games that gets unbalanced because you bought stuff (even if I am the one buying stuff that isn't very fun). It is clearly that you can make a successful MMORPG without either.
Get me right, it is not that I can't afford or is to cheap to pay the devs money they need. I gladly pay monthly fees or buy stuff that doesn't break the games balance.
For an instance can you actually sell playerhousing in a game, the free house could be a shack while people playing could by townhouses, mansions and even castles as long as it doesn't really affect the games balance (and I can tell you that if a game allow you to buy a mansion and furnitures for real money you will get a lot money that way even if the ingame advantages is slim to nil).
Games with too severe pay2win models tend to be a ghosttown pretty soon, whales tire after a while and ordinary player get upset over the pay2win thing. Leechers might still pay but they never buy anything so while you might earn a lot of money initially your long term income isn't very amazing.
Nope it comes to my mind when I read garbage like you've been posting here...you are a classic example of it.