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Introducing Microsoft Surface Studio

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  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Torval said:
    It's not a gaming PC. It' snot marketed as a gaming PC, but "someone" of course decided they needed to invent their own topic and hijack a thread, again.

    It's designed for professional visual artists. I could easily see it being useful for CAD work if it can handle the load. But it's intent is for those using Photoshop, Maya, and other pro grade development tools. Not surprisingly the 'dial' has been a really popular feature in discussions on reddit and facebook.

    This isn't the first touchscreen AiO focused on visual artists. Wacom has tablet/AiO style boards, but Microsoft has really taken this to the next level.
    no your not following along closely let me try to explain

    Here are the demographics for Desktop PCs

    Point 1
    1. Gaming
    2. Productivity of Office and the like
    3. Productivity of Photoshop products
    4. software development, CAD, CGI

    This computer doesnt fit demographics 1, 2 or 4 in that item 3 its better to get a laptop.

    Point 2
    PC desktop sales are on a decline yet PC gaming is on a rise, that means more and more desktops are being used for PC gaming by what appears to be a larger than a small margin. Thus if your PC is not for gaming (which I agree despite it being posted on a gaming website) then one has to consider the changing demographics of desktop PC use.
    PC desktop sales are on the decline because we've come to a time when your everyday humdrum work center, still works fine for what it needs to do after 6+ years and growing.

    I have no idea when I'll have to replace my office work centers. They seem to be quite dependable and they're performance is fine.
    I am telling you as someone who has worked as a software consultant for 10 years with many clients (not all at once to be clear) the trend by a large margin has been to replace the existing desktops with laptops. There is your decline right there.

    CAD designers are clearly not but if they need good power they arent going to buy a PC that is pretending to be strong but rather buy one that actually is.

    My accounting, customer service and secretarial staff will not be getting laptops at work anytime soon. I'd much prefer a lower cost alternative to what were seeing with this device.
    I saw it happen at major companies..

    Entire floors, desktops removed, laptops installed. IT departments with tons of laptops. Why? because its nice to have in a meeting its also nice to have if you need to work from home. Incidently once I had to REQUEST a desktop for development I had to explain why I felt like I needed a desktop instead of a laptop. The reason was I was doing Sharepoint development and I needed a fast machine to replicate their enviroment. They wanted me to replicate their entire sharepoint enviroment on a laptop. I had to explain not going to do that unless you want to spend a lot of upgrades on that laptop

    I think MS is missing the mark here, I think they are not looking at the current changes in the technology demographics.

    They should be looking to see how popular Chromebooks have become as a start
    I can see the benefit on a case by case.

    My shop closes at 4:30 and then its family time. I don't want my employees to take work home. The people that need laptops have them.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2016
    Torval said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Torval said:
    It's not a gaming PC. It' snot marketed as a gaming PC, but "someone" of course decided they needed to invent their own topic and hijack a thread, again.

    It's designed for professional visual artists. I could easily see it being useful for CAD work if it can handle the load. But it's intent is for those using Photoshop, Maya, and other pro grade development tools. Not surprisingly the 'dial' has been a really popular feature in discussions on reddit and facebook.

    This isn't the first touchscreen AiO focused on visual artists. Wacom has tablet/AiO style boards, but Microsoft has really taken this to the next level.
    no your not following along closely let me try to explain

    Here are the demographics for Desktop PCs

    Point 1
    1. Gaming
    2. Productivity of Office and the like
    3. Productivity of Photoshop products
    4. software development, CAD, CGI

    This computer doesnt fit demographics 1, 2 or 4 in that item 3 its better to get a laptop.

    Point 2
    PC desktop sales are on a decline yet PC gaming is on a rise, that means more and more desktops are being used for PC gaming by what appears to be a larger than a small margin. Thus if your PC is not for gaming (which I agree despite it being posted on a gaming website) then one has to consider the changing demographics of desktop PC use.
    It's specifically designed for visual artist productivity of all sorts. ....
    I am trying to tell you that I know people who make professional quality videos and get paid for it an such work is on some major sites. They do that work using a laptop

    coding and DB work really isnt 'fine with a laptop' I know people think so the processing power is there for sure, but the keyboard and monitor really isnt good for it. I wouldnt say video editing is good on a laptop either but I am saying the trend is that people do both on a laptop, expect others to do it on a laptop and its the new norm

    SHAREPOINT on the other hand is a different beast all together. re-creating a sharepoint enviroment on a laptop is not a good thing unless the laptop can rock it. but I have had clients that hired us expecting exactly that.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    incidently this is what graphic designers who make their own illustration are using currently

    http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/wacom-tablets-3.jpg

    these artists would need a reason to sell their Wacom tablet and buy this PC

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    SEANMCAD said:
    incidently this is what graphic designers who make their own illustration are using currently

    http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/wacom-tablets-3.jpg

    these artists would need a reason to sell their Wacom tablet and buy this PC
    Isn't it just a peripheral though? A nice one but you still need a PC to go along with it.

    Nothing like the same thing, but it reminds me of my old pen tablet back in 90's. I used to use it to digitize artwork and lettering into CAD so I could program it to my laser cutter.

    Trying to remember the company that made them, I'm getting old ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    incidently this is what graphic designers who make their own illustration are using currently

    http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/wacom-tablets-3.jpg

    these artists would need a reason to sell their Wacom tablet and buy this PC
    Isn't it just a peripheral though? A nice one but you still need a PC to go along with it.

    Nothing like the same thing, but it reminds me of my old pen tablet back in 90's. I used to use it to digitize artwork and lettering into CAD so I could program it to my laser cutter.

    Trying to remember the company that made them, I'm getting old ;)
    ok first off the top tier Wacom Tablets are nothing at all like what you saw in the 90s and are very accurate. Its the exact tool the extremely professional people use.


    second off, my question is not which is better, my question is why would one SELL their existing PC and Wacom setup they currently have to then buy this new one instead?

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    as a side note I think the best thing Microsoft has done that I can recall covering at least 12 months if not more is this:
    https://realsport101.com/news/sports/esports/microsoft-advertises-player-created-esports-tournaments

    hardware can be replicated by others, taking away your xbox live members is harder to do, so create reasons for them to stay and reasons for others to join.

    best move they have made in over a year best I can tell.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    incidently this is what graphic designers who make their own illustration are using currently

    http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/wacom-tablets-3.jpg

    these artists would need a reason to sell their Wacom tablet and buy this PC
    Isn't it just a peripheral though? A nice one but you still need a PC to go along with it.

    Nothing like the same thing, but it reminds me of my old pen tablet back in 90's. I used to use it to digitize artwork and lettering into CAD so I could program it to my laser cutter.

    Trying to remember the company that made them, I'm getting old ;)
    ok first off the top tier Wacom Tablets are nothing at all like what you saw in the 90s and are very accurate. Its the exact tool the extremely professional people use.


    second off, my question is not which is better, my question is why would one SELL their existing PC and Wacom setup they currently have to then buy this new one instead?
    Read:

    First off... I said "Nothing like the same thing"

    Second off...  I have to question your statement because with that line of thinking the market for new Wacom's is done.

    I have a Surface Pro and I'm very satisfied with the product. Which leads me to believe that, if this new Surface works well for what it's designed for, it will sell just fine.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2016
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    incidently this is what graphic designers who make their own illustration are using currently

    http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/wacom-tablets-3.jpg

    these artists would need a reason to sell their Wacom tablet and buy this PC
    Isn't it just a peripheral though? A nice one but you still need a PC to go along with it.

    Nothing like the same thing, but it reminds me of my old pen tablet back in 90's. I used to use it to digitize artwork and lettering into CAD so I could program it to my laser cutter.

    Trying to remember the company that made them, I'm getting old ;)
    ok first off the top tier Wacom Tablets are nothing at all like what you saw in the 90s and are very accurate. Its the exact tool the extremely professional people use.


    second off, my question is not which is better, my question is why would one SELL their existing PC and Wacom setup they currently have to then buy this new one instead?
    Read:

    First off... I said "Nothing like the same thing"

    Second off...  I have to question your statement because with that line of thinking the market for new Wacom's is done.

    I have a Surface Pro and I'm very satisfied with the product. Which leads me to believe that, if this new Surface works well for what it's designed for, it will sell just fine.
    however the surface pro from what I  have heard is NOT as accurate as a Wacom and a Wacom is STILL perfered over a Surface Pro for dedicated illustration work.

    The context of the question is this. If I already have a device, another device which would replace my existing device in that I would spend the extra money would have to be CONSIDERABLY better than the baseline I have already. In which in the case of illustrations at least the Surface Pro is not. Is this new device? I dont know but it would have to be at min. as good as a top end Wacom otherwise its a non-starter 

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    edited November 2016
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    laserit said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    incidently this is what graphic designers who make their own illustration are using currently

    http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/wacom-tablets-3.jpg

    these artists would need a reason to sell their Wacom tablet and buy this PC
    Isn't it just a peripheral though? A nice one but you still need a PC to go along with it.

    Nothing like the same thing, but it reminds me of my old pen tablet back in 90's. I used to use it to digitize artwork and lettering into CAD so I could program it to my laser cutter.

    Trying to remember the company that made them, I'm getting old ;)
    ok first off the top tier Wacom Tablets are nothing at all like what you saw in the 90s and are very accurate. Its the exact tool the extremely professional people use.


    second off, my question is not which is better, my question is why would one SELL their existing PC and Wacom setup they currently have to then buy this new one instead?
    Read:

    First off... I said "Nothing like the same thing"

    Second off...  I have to question your statement because with that line of thinking the market for new Wacom's is done.

    I have a Surface Pro and I'm very satisfied with the product. Which leads me to believe that, if this new Surface works well for what it's designed for, it will sell just fine.
    however the surface pro from what I  have heard is NOT as accurate as a Wacom and a Wacom is STILL perfered over a Surface Pro for dedicated illustration work.

    The context of the question is this. If I already have a device, another device which would replace my existing device in that I would spend the extra money would have to be CONSIDERABLY better than the baseline I have already. In which in the case of illustrations at least the Surface Pro is not. Is this new device? I dont know but it would have to be at min. as good as a top end Wacom otherwise its a non-starter 
    I have no idea as to whether using a Surface Pro in place of a Wacom was intentional by design. If it does work as good or better than a Wacom then I think the new product will be very appealing to those in the market for such a device.

    If it's powerful enough to fill my CAD needs and I can use a stylus, I'll find it very appealing. The evolution of that old pen tablet.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited November 2016
    laserit said:

    I have no idea as to whether using a Surface Pro in place of a Wacom was intentional by design. If it does work as good or better than a Wacom then I think the new product will be very appealing to those in the market for such a device.

    If it's powerful enough to fill my CAD needs and I can use a stylus, I'll find it very appealing. The evolution of that old pen tablet.
    I think we have more than exhausted this topic.

    To sum up I think its a very cool device but I do not think there is a strong enough market for it to make it a datapoint of interest from a sales/market changer perspective. Reasons for this is because the clear targeted use of the device is small and in a great respect already catered to via Wacom.

    I dont think anything I can say would change your mind and I doubt anything you will say will change mine.

    as a side note if it doesnt run game well (which I read it does not) you might want to look to see if it runs Solid Works well. I wouldnt be surprised to learn that it doesnt. CAD software can be pretty demanding

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,531
    How do they expect anyone to be productive with only one monitor?  That's ridiculous.
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    A few things:


    1) MS already know it's a limited use-case and already stated that it'll be produced in small quantities. This is not a mass market machine.

    2) MS isn't just selling hunk of metal for the sake of profit margin. Whatever they make on the Surface Studio is barely going to be pencil dust on their accounting books. They're selling a vision, they're positioning themselves as a lifestyle brand much like Apple did previously (and has stopped doing after Jobs passed). It's a marketing centerpiece.

    3) It's amazing and speaking as a designer who does it day in and day out for a living, if I had $4k to spare, I'd already have it on pre-order (I almost bought one anyway, but I didn't want to be a dick and take money out of our vacation fund). I have a Surface Book in the other room rendering a video I just finished, but if I could have a huge screen like that to work with I'd be thrilled. Lots of people dumped their wacoms and cintiqs in the last few years between the surface line and the ipad pro. Just because you do graphic design or illustration doesn't mean you need a separate dedicated drawing tablet, most of us used them because the alternative was drawing on paper and scanning it in.

    The Studio doesn't just replace "a" device. It replaces all your devices. It's easy to spend $1.5k-$3k on a monitor in the design world, the another $2k-$3k on a cintiq, and then the cost of a computer to run stuff.

    The only two ways I can see someone in a visual arts creative field not want one of these is if they either need significantly more power for their work or they are adamant about using MacOS.
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Rusque said:
    A few things:


    1) MS already know it's a limited use-case and already stated that it'll be produced in small quantities. This is not a mass market machine.

    2) MS isn't just selling hunk of metal for the sake of profit margin. Whatever they make on the Surface Studio is barely going to be pencil dust on their accounting books. They're selling a vision, they're positioning themselves as a lifestyle brand much like Apple did previously (and has stopped doing after Jobs passed). It's a marketing centerpiece.

    3) It's amazing and speaking as a designer who does it day in and day out for a living, if I had $4k to spare, I'd already have it on pre-order (I almost bought one anyway, but I didn't want to be a dick and take money out of our vacation fund). I have a Surface Book in the other room rendering a video I just finished, but if I could have a huge screen like that to work with I'd be thrilled. Lots of people dumped their wacoms and cintiqs in the last few years between the surface line and the ipad pro. Just because you do graphic design or illustration doesn't mean you need a separate dedicated drawing tablet, most of us used them because the alternative was drawing on paper and scanning it in.

    The Studio doesn't just replace "a" device. It replaces all your devices. It's easy to spend $1.5k-$3k on a monitor in the design world, the another $2k-$3k on a cintiq, and then the cost of a computer to run stuff.

    The only two ways I can see someone in a visual arts creative field not want one of these is if they either need significantly more power for their work or they are adamant about using MacOS.
    1. agreed
    2. agreed and very good point I had not considered. in fact its a smart move given that plan which your right it likely the case.
    3. I heard that the Surface Pros are not as accurate as the Wacoms. I dont know if that is true, it was rumor on top of another rumor so not sure. I would like to know for 100% sure though

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    My only thought:

    Hooray - Microsoft finally caught up to Apple's design, from 2004. At least someone is moving forward with it, since Apple seems to not care too much about their desktop line anymore.
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Ridelynn said:
    My only thought:

    Hooray - Microsoft finally caught up to Apple's design, from 2004. At least someone is moving forward with it, since Apple seems to not care too much about their desktop line anymore.
    Isn't making actual PC's quite new for Microsoft? I don't know if its a case of catching up... or rather... a case of picking up where Apple left off.

    I've always thought of Apple as having the whole Personal Computer world in the palm of their hand and then totally fucking it all up.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Quizzical said:
    How do they expect anyone to be productive with only one monitor?  That's ridiculous.

    I know.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    laserit said:
    Ridelynn said:
    My only thought:

    Hooray - Microsoft finally caught up to Apple's design, from 2004. At least someone is moving forward with it, since Apple seems to not care too much about their desktop line anymore.
    Isn't making actual PC's quite new for Microsoft? I don't know if its a case of catching up... or rather... a case of picking up where Apple left off.

    I've always thought of Apple as having the whole Personal Computer world in the palm of their hand and then totally fucking it all up.
    I would say your correct about it having been Apple's case to lose - back in the early-mid 80's, Apple was synonymous with PC. And they dropped that ball, and never could get themselves established again in the PC market. Not even once Jobs came back, and staged one of the greatest corporate comebacks of all time, has Apple really made much of a dent in their PC marketshare. Right now that's where Apple is with mobile devices (both phone and tablet) - they seem to be holding their own on the phone, but slipping on the tablet side of things.

    As far as Microsoft picking up where Apple left off - maybe. That isn't a bad way of thinking about it, they are essentially taking the Apple design, putting a touchscreen on it, and running Windows 10. I guess I just don't see the touchscreen as moving the design and form forward - it's more like throwing some bling on top of what was already there: sure, it looks a bit better, but it doesn't really do anything differently.

    I actually liked the ~idea~ of where Microsoft was headed with Windows 8 - you have "Windows", and it just runs across everything: Phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, servers. And everything just kinda migrated between devices seemlessly, rather than having a Desktop OS, and a tablet OS, and a phone OS, and all of those devices kinda living in their own little bubbles. Of course, it hasn't worked out that way, it's still a giant mess, but I think Microsoft is getting closer.
    It's something I think Apple should have done with OS X and iOS a long time ago. I can understand why it hasn't happened yet - interfaces and input devices are widely different between all those different form factors, and one ring can't quite rule them all (yet), but I think that's the direction everyone is headed.
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,785
    SEANMCAD said:


    3. I heard that the Surface Pros are not as accurate as the Wacoms. I dont know if that is true, it was rumor on top of another rumor so not sure. I would like to know for 100% sure though
    This is true. They're not quite as good, but MS have been closing that gap year on year and they've very close at this point. Basically the gap is small enough at this point, that you wouldn't go with Wacom on input-quality alone, you'd have to like them for another reason or have enough current devices of theirs to stay in the ecosystem.

    The Apple pencil is "better" than Wacom's, again I find this more subjective than anything as they're all so close. So another year or two and MS surface pen should be "better" as well.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Ridelynn said:
    laserit said:
    Ridelynn said:
    My only thought:

    Hooray - Microsoft finally caught up to Apple's design, from 2004. At least someone is moving forward with it, since Apple seems to not care too much about their desktop line anymore.
    Isn't making actual PC's quite new for Microsoft? I don't know if its a case of catching up... or rather... a case of picking up where Apple left off.

    I've always thought of Apple as having the whole Personal Computer world in the palm of their hand and then totally fucking it all up.
    I would say your correct about it having been Apple's case to lose - back in the early-mid 80's, Apple was synonymous with PC. And they dropped that ball, and never could get themselves established again in the PC market. Not even once Jobs came back, and staged one of the greatest corporate comebacks of all time, has Apple really made much of a dent in their PC marketshare. Right now that's where Apple is with mobile devices (both phone and tablet) - they seem to be holding their own on the phone, but slipping on the tablet side of things.

    As far as Microsoft picking up where Apple left off - maybe. That isn't a bad way of thinking about it, they are essentially taking the Apple design, putting a touchscreen on it, and running Windows 10. I guess I just don't see the touchscreen as moving the design and form forward - it's more like throwing some bling on top of what was already there: sure, it looks a bit better, but it doesn't really do anything differently.

    I actually liked the ~idea~ of where Microsoft was headed with Windows 8 - you have "Windows", and it just runs across everything: Phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, servers. And everything just kinda migrated between devices seemlessly, rather than having a Desktop OS, and a tablet OS, and a phone OS, and all of those devices kinda living in their own little bubbles. Of course, it hasn't worked out that way, it's still a giant mess, but I think Microsoft is getting closer.
    It's something I think Apple should have done with OS X and iOS a long time ago. I can understand why it hasn't happened yet - interfaces and input devices are widely different between all those different form factors, and one ring can't quite rule them all (yet), but I think that's the direction everyone is headed.

    That was Java's original design goal.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Rusque said:
    SEANMCAD said:


    3. I heard that the Surface Pros are not as accurate as the Wacoms. I dont know if that is true, it was rumor on top of another rumor so not sure. I would like to know for 100% sure though
    This is true. They're not quite as good, but MS have been closing that gap year on year and they've very close at this point. Basically the gap is small enough at this point, that you wouldn't go with Wacom on input-quality alone, you'd have to like them for another reason or have enough current devices of theirs to stay in the ecosystem.

    The Apple pencil is "better" than Wacom's, again I find this more subjective than anything as they're all so close. So another year or two and MS surface pen should be "better" as well.
    I have no doubt there are plenty of articles written comparing a high grade graphics tablet to that of a Surface Pro. If I have time i will read some today.

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

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