What trinity? DPS, tank, healing is a false "trinity"

TheScavenger

When I played Everquest 1 (and pretty sure Everquest 2 was the same) and City of Heroes. There was no trinity.

I could dps, tank or heal. Yes. However. There were also crowd control classes. I could do raids and control the raid mobs. In current MMOs, crowd control in a raid is unheard of. That offered a TON of possibilities.

But there were also buff classes (I know SWG had these). They were a support role. You would dance/entertain (in SWG), and in older MMOs, provide massive buffs to the group which helped other players a lot.

There was no trinity, because trinity is a failed design. But GW2 just removed tanking, but forgot about older MMOs where you could crowd control an entire dungeon, buff entire groups so the other players themselves do far better.

There were TONS of roles to do in a group. And it worked out really well.

There was no trinity, because that itself is a huge nerf to old ways of grouping. Especially when there were so many other roles you could fill into a group.

TheScavenger

Xodic said:

Sure, some classes could fill different types of roles in groups, but would never be as efficient. Those games were balanced accordingly, meaning most raid targets were mathematically built around the players potential to mitigate incoming damage, heal the damage taken and output damage - the trinity.

-- I just re-read your post, It's quite possible that I still have no clue what you're talking about.

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

But I do agree, that there used to be WAY more roles in groups than there is now. There used to be tons of things you could contribute to a dungeon/raid or whatever. Not just three roles over and over.

Heck world of warcraft, as a mage...NONE of your crowd control abilities work in a raid, or even a dungeon. Making mage the most useless WoW class because of that. You are out in the world and can do TONS of stuff, suddenly in a group you are heavily nerfed.

VengeSunsoar

Trinity was huge in eq. It was  just mostly tank heal cc. pretty much the exact same  with coh. Yes we could and did function well in coh without that. But man tanks to round them up and controllers to lock them down. Loads of fun. 

Just because there were  other  roles  does not mean  trinity wasn't big. 

Kyleran

TheScavenger said:

Xodic said:

Sure, some classes could fill different types of roles in groups, but would never be as efficient. Those games were balanced accordingly, meaning most raid targets were mathematically built around the players potential to mitigate incoming damage, heal the damage taken and output damage - the trinity.

-- I just re-read your post, It's quite possible that I still have no clue what you're talking about.

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

WTF? Why would you do this? What's wrong with you?

Wizardry

tsk tsk..still to this day 15 years later,it seems nobody has heard of ffxi.a GAME THAT ALREADY DID IT ALL before Wow and all it's clones.
Yes EQ1 as we all should realize a gem for it's  time,imo the BEST of it's era,however and imo FFXi easily surpassed it.EQ2 gave us nicer graphics and imo was also a superior game over EQ1 but again both EQ games lacked in areas that FFXi was superior at.
Without getting into a deep longer discussion,FFXI had the best ever healer/tank/CC/soloist class ever created in a MMORPG>>>>Red Mage.Then it had the BArd and Black Mage also great at CC with sleep abilities.
Long story short,ANYTHING you think these other games have done alone,it is likely FFXI already did it and better.The ONLY thing i have seen better along the years is of no argument,EQ2 housing,still to this day the best and even when some games including the bigger games have none.

filmoret

trinity gameplay is horrible design and lack of imagination.   ESO, GW2, Archeage got it right when it comes to this stuff.

Dakeru

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Xodic said:

Sure, some classes could fill different types of roles in groups, but would never be as efficient. Those games were balanced accordingly, meaning most raid targets were mathematically built around the players potential to mitigate incoming damage, heal the damage taken and output damage - the trinity.

-- I just re-read your post, It's quite possible that I still have no clue what you're talking about.

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

WTF? Why would you do this? What's wrong with you?

Clicks
All of his threads are cheap clickbait.

TheScavenger

Wizardry said:

tsk tsk..still to this day 15 years later,it seems nobody has heard of ffxi.a GAME THAT ALREADY DID IT ALL before Wow and all it's clones.
Yes EQ1 as we all should realize a gem for it's  time,imo the BEST of it's era,however and imo FFXi easily surpassed it.EQ2 gave us nicer graphics and imo was also a superior game over EQ1 but again both EQ games lacked in areas that FFXi was superior at.
Without getting into a deep longer discussion,FFXI had the best ever healer/tank/CC/soloist class ever created in a MMORPG>>>>Red Mage.Then it had the BArd and Black Mage also great at CC with sleep abilities.
Long story short,ANYTHING you think these other games have done alone,it is likely FFXI already did it and better.The ONLY thing i have seen better along the years is of no argument,EQ2 housing,still to this day the best and even when some games including the bigger games have none.

I forgot about FFXI! It was my 2nd MMO I ever played (first was Asheron's Call)

FFXI did have every role nailed down. They did each class and their role in the game perfectly. You could be an amazing soloist (though still harder than new MMOs are), an amazing buff role with CC thrown in, a crowd control focused role and all kinds of things. And none of them got turned off just because you entered a dungeon. Every class was the same in the world and in a group. Not like most MMOs that turn off tons of abilities just because you enter an instance.

Vynt

It wasn't even really the trinity back in EQ time. Sure people called it that years into the game for tank heals, cc, but without dps you went no where, so it was really 4 roles, tank, heals, dps, support, and the support could be split into a couple roles really with CC, buffs, pulling etc.

Daoc was like that too, 4 roles, maybe 5 if you counted a speedster, but that was usually worked in conjunction with another role of dps or CC depending on class and realm.

It never really was a trinity back then. Probably around WoW was when it truly became a trinity, and now even some games have less.

Forgrimm

TheScavenger said:

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

waynejr2

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Xodic said:

Sure, some classes could fill different types of roles in groups, but would never be as efficient. Those games were balanced accordingly, meaning most raid targets were mathematically built around the players potential to mitigate incoming damage, heal the damage taken and output damage - the trinity.

-- I just re-read your post, It's quite possible that I still have no clue what you're talking about.

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

WTF? Why would you do this? What's wrong with you?

He should be banned for doing that.

TheScavenger

waynejr2 said:

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Xodic said:

Sure, some classes could fill different types of roles in groups, but would never be as efficient. Those games were balanced accordingly, meaning most raid targets were mathematically built around the players potential to mitigate incoming damage, heal the damage taken and output damage - the trinity.

-- I just re-read your post, It's quite possible that I still have no clue what you're talking about.

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

WTF? Why would you do this? What's wrong with you?

He should be banned for doing that.

Why? I haven't broken any rules, and have made a lot of discussion on the forums. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean someone needs to be banned over it. There are tons of things people do on forums and in games that I don't like, but I don't report them for it or whine that they should be banned. Unless they are using hacks or one of those gold sell spammers.

If everyone got banned because someone didn't like something they did or said, the entire internet wouldn't exist and be 100% empty and quiet.

Forgrimm

waynejr2 said:

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Xodic said:

Sure, some classes could fill different types of roles in groups, but would never be as efficient. Those games were balanced accordingly, meaning most raid targets were mathematically built around the players potential to mitigate incoming damage, heal the damage taken and output damage - the trinity.

-- I just re-read your post, It's quite possible that I still have no clue what you're talking about.

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

WTF? Why would you do this? What's wrong with you?

He should be banned for doing that.

Agreed, since it's basically admitting that he shits up the forums with random, thoughtless nonsense just for the sake of it.

TheScavenger

Forgrimm said:

waynejr2 said:

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Xodic said:

Sure, some classes could fill different types of roles in groups, but would never be as efficient. Those games were balanced accordingly, meaning most raid targets were mathematically built around the players potential to mitigate incoming damage, heal the damage taken and output damage - the trinity.

-- I just re-read your post, It's quite possible that I still have no clue what you're talking about.

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

WTF? Why would you do this? What's wrong with you?

He should be banned for doing that.

Agreed, since it's basically admitting that he shits up the forums with random, thoughtless nonsense just for the sake of it.

again, like my post above. I haven't broken any rules, or spammed. But created discussions. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it should be ban worthy. If that was the case, I'd report 99% of people here for something they said.

SavageHorizon

Wizardry said:

tsk tsk..still to this day 15 years later,it seems nobody has heard of ffxi.a GAME THAT ALREADY DID IT ALL before Wow and all it's clones.
Yes EQ1 as we all should realize a gem for it's  time,imo the BEST of it's era,however and imo FFXi easily surpassed it.EQ2 gave us nicer graphics and imo was also a superior game over EQ1 but again both EQ games lacked in areas that FFXi was superior at.
Without getting into a deep longer discussion,FFXI had the best ever healer/tank/CC/soloist class ever created in a MMORPG>>>>Red Mage.Then it had the BArd and Black Mage also great at CC with sleep abilities.
Long story short,ANYTHING you think these other games have done alone,it is likely FFXI already did it and better.The ONLY thing i have seen better along the years is of no argument,EQ2 housing,still to this day the best and even when some games including the bigger games have none.

Look, i know you worship ffxi  but it is just your opinion. 

It's got to the stage where you can't make a post without mentioning what you keep claiming is the bestest mmo ever. 

Not once have you said it's just your opinion, like wizardry's word is final. 

waynejr2

Forgrimm said:

waynejr2 said:

Kyleran said:

TheScavenger said:

Xodic said:

Sure, some classes could fill different types of roles in groups, but would never be as efficient. Those games were balanced accordingly, meaning most raid targets were mathematically built around the players potential to mitigate incoming damage, heal the damage taken and output damage - the trinity.

-- I just re-read your post, It's quite possible that I still have no clue what you're talking about.

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

WTF? Why would you do this? What's wrong with you?

He should be banned for doing that.

Agreed, since it's basically admitting that he shits up the forums with random, thoughtless nonsense just for the sake of it.

I agree with that.

xyzercrime

TheScavenger said:

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

waynejr2

filmoret said:

trinity gameplay is horrible design and lack of imagination.   ESO, GW2, Archeage got it right when it comes to this stuff.

You don't like it therefore it is bad design.

Yaevindusk

Support and Crowd Control still exists, but they are just abilities given to one of the big three.

The problem is that the proverbial "Holy Trinity" is so perfect / efficient that oft times such things aren't ever needed in a dungeon or group setting.  It isn't as easy as taking one out, as seen with GW2, as you'll just then get a zergfest of waypoint and bashing your head against something until it's gone in a game of attrition.  Or cheap tactics like stacking and only bringing the most efficient combinations.

Such things tend to not offer great gameplay simply because the developer has to prepare for the lowest common denominator to be able to beat it.  That is, the least efficient classes and any combination of roles.  Even all healers or all squishy DPS.  Which means there is less room for mechanics, systems and challenging content as a whole.  That is, unless just throwing four DPS in a dungeon and having them wipe over and over again, but still make slow progress through attrition, is considered good design and gameplay.

As such, the most efficient "trinity" is implemented, and the developers know they can flood the room with mobs, have the bosses hit like a truck and have special mechanics that have to be countered by three specific roles (through mitigations or special role actions).  Even GW2 had to acknowledge this with the release of their expansion and the introduction of those advanced classes.  Likewise, WoW also made mention of this many times, and used it as an explanation for 20 man Mythic raiding and the difficulty thereof.

Theocritus

VengeSunsoar said:

Trinity was huge in eq. It was  just mostly tank heal cc. pretty much the exact same  with coh. Yes we could and did function well in coh without that. But man tanks to round them up and controllers to lock them down. Loads of fun. 

Just because there were  other  roles  does not mean  trinity wasn't big. 

YEs that was teh trinity: Tank, healer, crowd control/slower....then the dps was added afterwards

Konfess

Crowd Control is a healing class.  The type of healing done is damage mitigation.  This is healing done by preventing damage (Power Word: Shield).  The buffing done in SWG was a type of healing.  By increasing stats, the player was able to survive longer, but still required combat healing.  True Healing and there fore the Trinity comes in a variety of styles and classes.  

@TheScavenger the correct statement should have been, "Why does the trinity focus on healing?"  I think the answer is because the system is easily understood by most gamers and easily implemented.  Also, most melee DPS players hate to have crowd control skills used on them.  This often results in the removal or PvP nerf of crowd control skills.

Let's look at a few CC skills.

Fear, Sheep, Sleep : Target A goes to sleep for 10 seconds.  [DPS reduced to 0 for 10 seconds] {Target A's target, Target B receives no DPS from Target A for 10 seconds, or is healed for the damage done by Target A to Target B for 10 seconds}

koboldfodder

You sure you played Everquest?  Does not sound so.  CC did not work on bosses, which is why you only need one enchanter on a raid.

You needed aggro control.  That meant a warrior, ranger, paladin or SK in whatever era of Everquest you were in.

The trinity was Tank, DPS, Crowd Control for a basic group.  Of course a healer would make things a bit easier, but with a good bard or enchanter you could go without one.

But, you are missing the most important aspect of the trinity.  And that is encounter design.  In Guild Wars 2, everyone solos the same monster.  EQ2 does not need crowd control, otherwise you would have to have a bard/enchanter in your group.  They still have good encounter design, just nothing for CC classes.

Xatsh

There were 5 roles in my eyes. Some classes had mixed attributes but they primarily fall in one of the following.

Tank
Damage Dealer
Healer
Support (Buff Class)
Crowd Control

Most mmos have removed the last 2 due to "Balance". This was really bad in my opinion as it really dumbed the game down and made it only focused on Max DPS, tank hold hate, Dodge the circle , and heal everyone until the boss falls.

FFXIV, WOW, and other mainstream mmos give the CC and Support roles to the other 3 archetypes, but they are not played the same at all.

As a healer your priority is healing, not support. As a Damage Per Second, your main job is dealing damage not crowd control. And half the bosses are so scripted in mmos today that they had to make them immune to everything so it could do its mechanics. In older mmos where CC and Support flourished even the strongest boss could be slowed, slept, paralyzed, stuned, and rooted. Today all you see is Resist, or Immune pop up.

I want things to return to the way they were and in my opinion the most balanced when looking at group gameplay. All jobs were really weak when alone, but when together they all complemented each other and you could take down the most powerful of enemies.

Support - Minimal healing, Minimal Damage, Minor CC, Focuses on increases the potency of the rest of the party.
CC - focuses on immobilizing and weakining on enemies, Does low damage, little to no healing
DD/DPS - Focused on killing stuff
Tank - Highest Survivability, mid to low damage. Takes the punch for the party.
Healer - Low Damage, focuses on keeping people alive, minor buffs and such.

Honestly out of all the mmos I played, FFXI shown the true spectrum of the job possibilities better then most mmos. Each job had multiple roles it could fill. Blood Tank (Standard mmo defense tank), evasion tank, Off Tank (multiple mobs usally), Support (Job varied depending on if they were in the tank or dps party), Main heal, raid heal,  Main Pull, Main Kite, Main enfeeble, Main stun, DPS, Hate/Threat Management (THF), Mass Enfeebling (Aoe Sleep). Missing one of them needed for a fight, while not impossible to win, made the fight multitudes harder. The jobs were unique to the event you did in this game, not hey I am X job I will do the same rotation on every single fight like it is now in most mmos. Then again different game for a different era I guess, ppl like button mashing today.

MrMelGibson

Wizardry said:

tsk tsk..still to this day 15 years later,it seems nobody has heard of ffxi.a GAME THAT ALREADY DID IT ALL before Wow and all it's clones.
Yes EQ1 as we all should realize a gem for it's  time,imo the BEST of it's era,however and imo FFXi easily surpassed it.EQ2 gave us nicer graphics and imo was also a superior game over EQ1 but again both EQ games lacked in areas that FFXi was superior at.
Without getting into a deep longer discussion,FFXI had the best ever healer/tank/CC/soloist class ever created in a MMORPG>>>>Red Mage.Then it had the BArd and Black Mage also great at CC with sleep abilities.
Long story short,ANYTHING you think these other games have done alone,it is likely FFXI already did it and better.The ONLY thing i have seen better along the years is of no argument,EQ2 housing,still to this day the best and even when some games including the bigger games have none.

You literally say the exact same thing in almost every thread you post in.  We get it, you love FF11 and everything else is shit.  Must be depressing knowing nothing else brings you as much comfort and security.  Maybe it's just time to move on from gaming.  It doesn't seem like you enjoy it at all.

Aelious

xyzercrime said:

TheScavenger said:

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

You win the internet today. This influenced me search "have you ever been so angry memes" and tabbed to images. In tears. Thank you

xyzercrime

Aelious said:

xyzercrime said:

TheScavenger said:

For the last part. Dunno either. I use a reddit topic generator for random topics about MMOs/politics/games/insects/animals or whatever fits the subreddit. Then it gives me 1-2 paragraphs of content to copy/paste. Then I change it up, and add stuff to it that fits the topic.

snip

You win the internet today. This influenced me search "have you ever been so angry memes" and tabbed to images. In tears. Thank you

And this is MMORPG.com-specialized meme:


It's Troll Time!!!