At the end of the day $15 doesn't cover the cost of maintaining a server - that takes a much bigger sum.
The key is having enough players (consumers). Not enough and it doesn't matter whether the sub is $10 or $15 or $25. If a game has lots it becomes "highly profitable".
Nor does it follow that charging more means more revenue. In general a higher cost will mean fewer buyers. (Different for very cheap and very expensive) so a higher price might result in less money - and the reverse is true.
But what works for one game won't necessarily work for another. Which brings us back to things like quality and the amount of content available. And the concept of value.
So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore. Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003? If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
The real problem with subs these days is (simplified and generalized) that the games are not made for long term commitment, and therefore the sub model is not the best choice for those games. Those few games that have long term appeal (you know which) actually (for the most part) have some sort of sub model going (premium membership and other names). Now, you can always find a lone example to use as argument against any opinion or observation, but generally speaking...
It's a dual edged sword. I miss those times of the past because the game "quality" made up for the fact that there was only maybe 1-2 games released for a platform in a month. EQ was designed to be a multi-year game. Now we're at AAA games that barely have 5 hrs of story and they charge 60 bucks and wonder why they get backlash. So then people go with F2P games. Because they're disposible. Yes, there are whales but the majority of us have lost our ability to focus on just one game at a time. At any time I've got 5 game systems with a game on them that I'm playing.
So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore. Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003? If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
The point is that 15$ a month isn't what was in 2001-2003. If you're paying 15$ for a game in 2016 it's not going to produce something of the same quality as it could back then because that money is worth less.
So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore. Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003? If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
The point is that 15$ a month isn't what was in 2001-2003. If you're paying 15$ for a game in 2016 it's not going to produce something of the same quality as it could back then because that money is worth less.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore. Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003? If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
I'm happy with ESO, yet not happier with it than I was in SWG. I also wouldn't exactly say the sub doesn't work, it's just doesn't work continually for a lot of games. It has done well though for WOW, FFXIV, as well as EVE.
It works for ESO, just not on the regular, If I'm seriously doing PVE content I'll sub for the extra content, if I'm mostly PVPIng I won't sub. That's the same way I played TOR more or less as well. SUB when doing content, unsub when just dabbling around in the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore. Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003? If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
I'm happy because I have a larger pick of games to play. Back then if I wanted to play a popular MMO, subbing was my only option. I now have two or three MMO's I play regularly, a lot I come back to once or twice a year to see what's new, and a lot I can turn down because the market is so flooded I can afford to be really picky.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The people running the SWGEMU main server list the actual expenses of what it costs one server that can support up to 6k-10k players (not concurrently), and the break out all the costs for their whole enterprise.
Granted they are using volunteer CSRs and devs, so there is no real labor expense, but they are keeping development going and running 2 servers (play and test) for under $24k a year in donations, and have been for years. (And that includes everything including paying an accountant and lawyer).
Which split over all those players is not much. Even factoring in labor for several people, $15/mo would cover that a couple times over.
So, when talking theoretical this and that, one should consider the facts of what is actually being done and for how much....
(Personally, I send them $100 in January and play as much or as little as I want during the year with a clean conscience, and as just one person I am paying 1/240th of their expenses...)
My problem with P2P was it was just an extra fee to play the game.....At least with cash shops you get something for that money......Mounts, XP potions, gear, whatever
Well now most games that have subs and cash shop give you currency for the shops when you sub.
The people running the SWGEMU main server list the actual expenses of what it costs one server that can support up to 6k-10k players (not concurrently), and the break out all the costs for their whole enterprise.
Granted they are using volunteer CSRs and devs, so there is no real labor expense, but they are keeping development going and running 2 servers (play and test) for under $24k a year in donations, and have been for years. (And that includes everything including paying an accountant and lawyer).
Which split over all those players is not much. Even factoring in labor for several people, $15/mo would cover that a couple times over.
So, when talking theoretical this and that, one should consider the facts of what is actually being done and for how much....
(Personally, I send them $100 in January and play as much or as little as I want during the year with a clean conscience, and as just one person I am paying 1/240th of their expenses...)
One thing you're not taking into consideration is the bureaoucracy. These types of initiatives are ALWAYS interesting, but rarely practical and even less reproducible. Some of the most efficient teams in history are smaller teams. I'm going to get the product here wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me, but one of the most productive teams in history was the Lotus 123 team and it was like 10 people. The H1Z1 team was like 10 people. Every single skunkworks program ever created was a smaller team.
Effectively, the number of employees on a project provides diminishing returns on a non-linear scale. There are many factors that contribute to this, but I won't bore you with that. However, to meet schedules, they usually have to increase their resources so the project costs a fuck-ton more but releases marginally sooner than it would have with a smaller team. It's messed up.
Secondly, SWGEMU has never even seen 6k players, let alone 10k. If they DID happen to have 10k players I'm sure they could support their efforts by charging $15 a month. However, I'm sure that violates some sort of agreement with DBG that allows them to operate and I'd be surprised if they could actually be profitable on donations alone. Kudos to you, though, for tossing some money in their hat. I think it's a pretty awesome project and they should get some love.
The people running the SWGEMU main server list the actual expenses of what it costs one server that can support up to 6k-10k players (not concurrently), and the break out all the costs for their whole enterprise.
Granted they are using volunteer CSRs and devs, so there is no real labor expense, but they are keeping development going and running 2 servers (play and test) for under $24k a year in donations, and have been for years. (And that includes everything including paying an accountant and lawyer).
Which split over all those players is not much. Even factoring in labor for several people, $15/mo would cover that a couple times over.
So, when talking theoretical this and that, one should consider the facts of what is actually being done and for how much....
(Personally, I send them $100 in January and play as much or as little as I want during the year with a clean conscience, and as just one person I am paying 1/240th of their expenses...)
So a few things I'd like to ask about that.
1. Does SWGEMU actually update content at the rate of a true MMO. You know a few major patches a year with one major expansion where they release new features and content, occasional graphics updates to keep things current etc. Something comparable to WoW, EVE, ArcheAge, Runescape etc.
2. Is SWGEMU run for profit or do they put everything they make back into the game, essentially making it a charity?
And if you want to say two is about "greed". The reason good MMOs are made by for profit companies is those companies can use their profits to do things like... launch an MMO with all the content needed for it to be fun without panhandling for funds on Kickstarter first.
My problem with P2P was it was just an extra fee to play the game.....At least with cash shops you get something for that money......Mounts, XP potions, gear, whatever
Also in F2P or B2P games with cash shops the subscription offers something for the money more than just access to the servers.
Something that might have been included in the game anyway had it been a sub-only game?
I remember many games that had exclusive, hard to get prestige items that were part of the core game and games were improved all the time with additions. Now they give you the impression that those things would never be developed if they couldn't charge extra for it.
The only reason games like ESO make it seem like you're getting something extra for your sub is because they create that illusion by carving out things (crafting bag for example that is part of the core GW2 game) that could easily be core improvements. The 1500 crowns per month subbed they give you is also just so you can get some things easily (eg. costumes, mounts) that would have been obtainable through achievements or in-game gold if it was a sub-only game.
Bottom line is you've got to pay anyway to get the full experience. I still prefer to get access to the whole thing through a monthly sub.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Or it may have been part of an expansion that you pay extra for, or a collectors edition that you pay extra for, or it may have never been made at all.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think people are forgetting that companies earn millions if not billions of dollars while the guy who fixes your toilet while swimming in shit gets just enough to fill his stomach. Idk man...
When UO was in beta. They did a survey. I think they were toying with $10 to $80 dollars a month. The overwhelming feedback led them to $15. . Maybe it was Meridian.
Either way the cost of the tech based on the number of subs has likely compensated for the inflation? Maybe not with new games though. I guess there is more on the server end. It is what is profitable and what the market will bear. People will not pay much more with F2P and if they did they would demand premium service and possibly policing of the community.
When UO was in beta. They did a survey. I think they were toying with $10 to $80 dollars a month. The overwhelming feedback led them to $15. . Maybe it was Meridian.
Either way the cost of the tech based on the number of subs has likely compensated for the inflation? Maybe not with new games though. I guess there is more on the server end. It is what is profitable and what the market will bear. People will not pay much more with F2P and if they did they would demand premium service and possibly policing of the community.
Uh, no, that's not where and when $15 started, read the thread if you want to know more.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So all of you people who say $15.00 sub doesn't work anymore. Are you happier today with the mmoRPGs you have than say back in 2001 - 2003? If we look at your posting history are you praising games which you are playing or are we seeing mostly complaining?
The same game I paid $15 for in 99-04 is still around and is free today
The people running the SWGEMU main server list the actual expenses of what it costs one server that can support up to 6k-10k players (not concurrently), and the break out all the costs for their whole enterprise.
Granted they are using volunteer CSRs and devs, so there is no real labor expense, but they are keeping development going and running 2 servers (play and test) for under $24k a year in donations, and have been for years. (And that includes everything including paying an accountant and lawyer).
Which split over all those players is not much. Even factoring in labor for several people, $15/mo would cover that a couple times over.
So, when talking theoretical this and that, one should consider the facts of what is actually being done and for how much....
(Personally, I send them $100 in January and play as much or as little as I want during the year with a clean conscience, and as just one person I am paying 1/240th of their expenses...)
So a few things I'd like to ask about that.
1. Does SWGEMU actually update content at the rate of a true MMO. You know a few major patches a year with one major expansion where they release new features and content, occasional graphics updates to keep things current etc. Something comparable to WoW, EVE, ArcheAge, Runescape etc.
2. Is SWGEMU run for profit or do they put everything they make back into the game, essentially making it a charity?
And if you want to say two is about "greed". The reason good MMOs are made by for profit companies is those companies can use their profits to do things like... launch an MMO with all the content needed for it to be fun without panhandling for funds on Kickstarter first.
As to that:
!. They are still finishing out the mechanics of the game, not everything is done yet. They are rebuilding the server code from scratch, and there is a ways to go yet.
That said, everything is pretty much "done" except for jedi and space (and a few other bits here and there), and the Jedi village is mostly finished on test center, the main programmer for that was out for a while after a serious illness/injury.
2. The EMU is totally not for profit and is being run as a de facto charity, all donations go towards upkeep, no one directly working on the project draws a salary. The EMU is considered "fan art".
The reason for this is at the core of why the SWG is legal/possible and is allowed under the law to exist: the "fan art" exception to copyright law in the US.
There are several conditions that must be met to satisfy the "fan art" exception to IP law, and they mostly center around money. First, the company whose IP it is can not be made to lose money by someone's fan art (since SWG is closed, that one is not hard). Another condition is that the producer of the fan art, conversely, can not profit from the company's IP either. (There are other conditions as well, including "not damaging the reputation of company or value of the IP by producing the fan art (which can't really be said since they are exactly remaking a game SOE/LA released)).
Thus, all of the donations are carefully tracked and wholly used on expenses.
In short, the EMU people don't make any money for themselves, because they legally can't, without sinking the EMU itself under a lawsuit.
Edit: The real point I was trying to make in regards to this thread, is the actual, non-company expenses for keeping an MMORPG server going and marginally supported are not high, and easily doable for the $15/mo fee, so there is not much need to ask for what? $30? $50? The EMU is going on about $2/mo per player with volunteer CSRs.
I actually find $15/month very reasonable for a game that I actually play. It's the price of a single movie ticket here in L.A.
The movie ticket price isn't bad where I live, around $12 or so, as little as $9 at Studio Movie Grill.
But when I buy a small popcorn and medium drink (upgraded for free to a medium/large with. my AMC premium card) and it comes in around $18 it chokes you a bit.
No wonder I frequently hear the sound of illicit canned beverages being opened during most movies, even from families with children.
So back on topic, monthly subs are of small concern to me, but the title does have to offer an experience not easily found elsewhere
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Put in the year you played your first 15 and the year you played your first 15$ sub game and hit "Calculate".
Based on my estimation of 2000, a 15$ sub should now cost people 21$. Yet subscription prices have not increased whatsoever. People just want to go back to the good old days of 15$ subs but it's a lot like people who want to go back to the good old days of five cent coffee. It's been 16 years. We went through a major recession during that time period. 15$ doesn't pay the bills anymore.
No consumers have ever shown any indication of being tolerant to them jacking up the prices though. Any MMO that did would be massacred by public opinion as "greedy money grabbers." So they gave us cash shops instead. That's on us.
Comments
I'd continue to pay if tokens didn't exist and I would pay more if sub costs increased as I currently enjoy the game.
Funny thing is, I can't even give Blizz my money anymore even though I'd be happy to.
The key is having enough players (consumers). Not enough and it doesn't matter whether the sub is $10 or $15 or $25. If a game has lots it becomes "highly profitable".
Nor does it follow that charging more means more revenue. In general a higher cost will mean fewer buyers. (Different for very cheap and very expensive) so a higher price might result in less money - and the reverse is true.
But what works for one game won't necessarily work for another. Which brings us back to things like quality and the amount of content available. And the concept of value.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Now, you can always find a lone example to use as argument against any opinion or observation, but generally speaking...
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
You can't say what my point was. derp.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
It works for ESO, just not on the regular, If I'm seriously doing PVE content I'll sub for the extra content, if I'm mostly PVPIng I won't sub. That's the same way I played TOR more or less as well. SUB when doing content, unsub when just dabbling around in the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Granted they are using volunteer CSRs and devs, so there is no real labor expense, but they are keeping development going and running 2 servers (play and test) for under $24k a year in donations, and have been for years. (And that includes everything including paying an accountant and lawyer).
Which split over all those players is not much. Even factoring in labor for several people, $15/mo would cover that a couple times over.
So, when talking theoretical this and that, one should consider the facts of what is actually being done and for how much....
(Personally, I send them $100 in January and play as much or as little as I want during the year with a clean conscience, and as just one person I am paying 1/240th of their expenses...)
One thing you're not taking into consideration is the bureaoucracy. These types of initiatives are ALWAYS interesting, but rarely practical and even less reproducible. Some of the most efficient teams in history are smaller teams. I'm going to get the product here wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me, but one of the most productive teams in history was the Lotus 123 team and it was like 10 people. The H1Z1 team was like 10 people. Every single skunkworks program ever created was a smaller team.
Effectively, the number of employees on a project provides diminishing returns on a non-linear scale. There are many factors that contribute to this, but I won't bore you with that. However, to meet schedules, they usually have to increase their resources so the project costs a fuck-ton more but releases marginally sooner than it would have with a smaller team. It's messed up.
Secondly, SWGEMU has never even seen 6k players, let alone 10k. If they DID happen to have 10k players I'm sure they could support their efforts by charging $15 a month. However, I'm sure that violates some sort of agreement with DBG that allows them to operate and I'd be surprised if they could actually be profitable on donations alone. Kudos to you, though, for tossing some money in their hat. I think it's a pretty awesome project and they should get some love.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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1. Does SWGEMU actually update content at the rate of a true MMO. You know a few major patches a year with one major expansion where they release new features and content, occasional graphics updates to keep things current etc. Something comparable to WoW, EVE, ArcheAge, Runescape etc.
2. Is SWGEMU run for profit or do they put everything they make back into the game, essentially making it a charity?
And if you want to say two is about "greed". The reason good MMOs are made by for profit companies is those companies can use their profits to do things like... launch an MMO with all the content needed for it to be fun without panhandling for funds on Kickstarter first.
I remember many games that had exclusive, hard to get prestige items that were part of the core game and games were improved all the time with additions. Now they give you the impression that those things would never be developed if they couldn't charge extra for it.
The only reason games like ESO make it seem like you're getting something extra for your sub is because they create that illusion by carving out things (crafting bag for example that is part of the core GW2 game) that could easily be core improvements. The 1500 crowns per month subbed they give you is also just so you can get some things easily (eg. costumes, mounts) that would have been obtainable through achievements or in-game gold if it was a sub-only game.
Bottom line is you've got to pay anyway to get the full experience. I still prefer to get access to the whole thing through a monthly sub.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Either way the cost of the tech based on the number of subs has likely compensated for the inflation? Maybe not with new games though. I guess there is more on the server end. It is what is profitable and what the market will bear. People will not pay much more with F2P and if they did they would demand premium service and possibly policing of the community.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
!. They are still finishing out the mechanics of the game, not everything is done yet. They are rebuilding the server code from scratch, and there is a ways to go yet.
That said, everything is pretty much "done" except for jedi and space (and a few other bits here and there), and the Jedi village is mostly finished on test center, the main programmer for that was out for a while after a serious illness/injury.
2. The EMU is totally not for profit and is being run as a de facto charity, all donations go towards upkeep, no one directly working on the project draws a salary. The EMU is considered "fan art".
The reason for this is at the core of why the SWG is legal/possible and is allowed under the law to exist: the "fan art" exception to copyright law in the US.
There are several conditions that must be met to satisfy the "fan art" exception to IP law, and they mostly center around money. First, the company whose IP it is can not be made to lose money by someone's fan art (since SWG is closed, that one is not hard). Another condition is that the producer of the fan art, conversely, can not profit from the company's IP either. (There are other conditions as well, including "not damaging the reputation of company or value of the IP by producing the fan art (which can't really be said since they are exactly remaking a game SOE/LA released)).
Thus, all of the donations are carefully tracked and wholly used on expenses.
In short, the EMU people don't make any money for themselves, because they legally can't, without sinking the EMU itself under a lawsuit.
Edit: The real point I was trying to make in regards to this thread, is the actual, non-company expenses for keeping an MMORPG server going and marginally supported are not high, and easily doable for the $15/mo fee, so there is not much need to ask for what? $30? $50? The EMU is going on about $2/mo per player with volunteer CSRs.
But when I buy a small popcorn and medium drink (upgraded for free to a medium/large with. my AMC premium card) and it comes in around $18 it chokes you a bit.
No wonder I frequently hear the sound of illicit canned beverages being opened during most movies, even from families with children.
So back on topic, monthly subs are of small concern to me, but the title does have to offer an experience not easily found elsewhere
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon