Good link from @CrazKanuk although I suggest it supports the gist of what @Atlan99 suggests: Eve has been making money but CCP has been spending the money it has been making on things other than Eve e.g. World of Darkness.
So CCP now have a choice.
(Try and) Sell the business to an "investment company" like e.g. CN. They run Eve until subs decline to something "close to zero" at which point they close the game. If they get the sums right they get back what they paid for it + a profit.
CCP could adopt this approach of course.
(Try and) Sell the business to a "development company" that might run Eve and seek to develop it. If Eve can indeed be "developed" - I'm sure there is stuff that can be done but at the end of the day its not a PvE game that you can create a new zone and some quests for. Its self-sustaining in that sense.
Cut the cost maybe?
There are pressures on the horizon. The decline in subs may well come with a decline in new subscribers. Amazon are waiting in the wings, Star Citizen and so forth. Things may be healthy today but if this news is true it suggests that they may be wondering "for how long?".
Wow. They had a license to print money and squandered it.
Got overambitious with too many properties at once. The ones that they did manage to get to market failed horribly.
If they had of just stuck with Eve they would have been fine.
That's not true at all. The issue isn't with their management of resources, but their decline in subscriptions. At it's peak EVE was at around 500k subscribers and, now, it's estimated that half that or less. They attempted to diversify their portfolio with no success, you're right, but that wasn't the nail in the coffin, inevitability was.
If they had of stuck with Eve they would have a steady income of tens of millions of dollars a year. They decide to do too many projects at once.
They ended up having to scrap most of those projects. The ones they did finish were complete failures.
Ok, I'm not sure I'm understanding. So are you saying that their development of these other side projects directly influenced (led to the decrease of) their subscriptions?
No. Eve Online itself is very profitable. It makes millions of dollars per year. It was never the problem and it still isn't the problem.
The problem was CCP went heavily into debt to finance multiple projects at the same time. One project might have been fine. However their focus was spread across multiple projects, many of which never made it to market.
I don't see any of that. I know that they have seen EVE decline year-over-year since 2012. You can also find financial statements like this for 2015 and before, but they've gone dark on their financials and have stopped releasing the data as of last year. I thought maybe you had some additional insight because, from what I knew, they had a pretty good 2015 despite declining EVE revenues. When they went dark with their financials I figured that their subs fell off a cliff.
Yes, 2012... I think Eve Online decline started with this:
For years they used to talk about how they were expanding their servers and updating them. It seemed that they would push the envelope a tiny bit every month or so trying to get those advertised "big" battles to work.
I think they finally got those to perform better...but i wonder at what cost? Years of higher and higher costs on equipment...i just wonder how much they really spend to have that seemingly seamless universe for their players.
I bet people would be shocked at the operating costs. But that is just a guess. Wonder what sub numbers they need to survive and make profits going forward?
I do hope they make it and keep going for years. I do not play any more and haven't for years...but can hope they continue on.
I'm a Windows / Linux Server Administrator, and I've worked for several billion dollar companies, most recently Leidos Global Services Group. I'm kind of a hardware junkie, and I've kept up with CCP's upgrades and basically they've gone through three sets of servers.
The original servers that they bought to start running EVE, which weren't very powerful as they were dirt poor at the time.
Then in 2008-2009 they upgraded to IBM HS21 bladecenters and some RamSan database servers which was a huge hardware improvement. The game performed a whole hell of a lot better for a few years afterwards.
In 2015 they upgraded their hardware yet again from the Blades to the new IBM Flex servers. The majority of their systems are all still pure hardware, however, they also built two Virtual nodes running VMWare. Now, I've been maintaining VMWare based servers with ESXi Host Noes for about eight years now, so I know quite a bit about them, and I don't think it was such a great investment to be honest.
Virtual Machines are great when you're hardware isn't getting used very much. If you have a single hardware server, for instance, that is nothing but your Domain Controller and all it really does is authenticate users, well that's a hell of a waste of hardware resources. So instead you virtualize part of your server stack and make your DC a virtual server, like I've done on my current servers, and now you have all of those CPU cycles that can be used for other tasks, on other virtual servers, than just a millisecond here and there to check logins.
But with gaming hardware that runs 24/7? I find it hard to believe that those servers aren't running pretty hard all day with computations, so I'm not sure why they would need to go virtual at all. But then, I don't work in their server room, so I have no metrics for proof.
Wow. They had a license to print money and squandered it.
Got overambitious with too many properties at once. The ones that they did manage to get to market failed horribly.
If they had of just stuck with Eve they would have been fine.
That's not true at all. The issue isn't with their management of resources, but their decline in subscriptions. At it's peak EVE was at around 500k subscribers and, now, it's estimated that half that or less. They attempted to diversify their portfolio with no success, you're right, but that wasn't the nail in the coffin, inevitability was.
If they had of stuck with Eve they would have a steady income of tens of millions of dollars a year. They decide to do too many projects at once.
They ended up having to scrap most of those projects. The ones they did finish were complete failures.
Ok, I'm not sure I'm understanding. So are you saying that their development of these other side projects directly influenced (led to the decrease of) their subscriptions?
No. Eve Online itself is very profitable. It makes millions of dollars per year. It was never the problem and it still isn't the problem.
The problem was CCP went heavily into debt to finance multiple projects at the same time. One project might have been fine. However their focus was spread across multiple projects, many of which never made it to market.
I don't see any of that. I know that they have seen EVE decline year-over-year since 2012. You can also find financial statements like this for 2015 and before, but they've gone dark on their financials and have stopped releasing the data as of last year. I thought maybe you had some additional insight because, from what I knew, they had a pretty good 2015 despite declining EVE revenues. When they went dark with their financials I figured that their subs fell off a cliff.
Those numbers support exactly what I said. Eve Online has made money every year since it's release and the costs to maintain Eve are minimal.
2013-2014 they lost $85 million dollars. Compare that to the $28 million dollars they made between 2008 and 2012.
You quickly get an idea of why they are in the position they are in. They pissed away all their profit on too many failed and cancelled projects.
I personally feel it was that growing sense of power and arrogance that may have scuttled this company. Its like they felt "Don't like what we're doing? Well where the hell else are you going to go?" They started living the rock star lifestyle pissing money away on whatever little distraction that appealed to them instead continuing to feed the very thing that made them famous in the first place.
This!
It seemed like after they first purchased White Wolf they grew a big chip on their shoulder. They had a new division in White Wolf, they were working on "walking in stations" which would have brought some new people into the game and they were working on Dust. Everything was great, money was rolling in and they were kings of the world growing at a rapid pace. I saw this way back when they first introduced White Wolf at a fanfest and made it clear that "the one wearing the kilt was in charge".
Moving in multiple directions, pushing their game as a gank/murder simulator with the "Be the Villain" marketing campaign and making bad business decisions like making Dust a console exclusive all lead to this. While I think Hilmar is an incredible leader, his growing hubris was visible to anyone who was watching.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Sounds like there is a change coming not only to the company, but to the game as well - including some tough decisions for whatever company will be in charge then.
I guess the toughest one would be "how can we change the game to be more profitable and attract more new players without going too carebear and losing the hardcore players on the other hand?"
I havent played eve in over ten years but i hope for the players sake they find someone who wants to grow the game rather than selling it to someone like columbus nova who just want to milk it dry.
lol, that's an understatement. I guess all of the 'EVE' is doing great posts need to be explored a bit. This is never a good sign when you use the term 'solvent.'
lol, that's an understatement. I guess all of the 'EVE' is doing great posts need to be explored a bit. This is never a good sign when you use the term 'solvent.'
Eve Online itself is doing great if you look at the numbers. There has been a decline but it still has healthy profit margins.
The problem is the $176 million CCP spent on R&D from 2012-2015.
lol, that's an understatement. I guess all of the 'EVE' is doing great posts need to be explored a bit. This is never a good sign when you use the term 'solvent.'
Eve Online itself is doing great if you look at the numbers. There has been a decline but it still has healthy profit margins.
The problem is the $176 million CCP spent on R&D from 2012-2015.
Maybe they should have had a separate compnay for R&D so they could bankrupt it when they need to. Like hollywood does!
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Well not that I'm concerned or anything, but with renewals on my 6 subs coming up in January I think I'll be turning off the automatic renewels tonight.
Maybe pay with my stockpiled ISK for a while.
Wonder if this news will impact the PLEX market, probably so, but which way?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well not that I'm concerned or anything, but with renewals on my 6 subs coming up in January I think I'll be turning off the automatic renewels tonight.
Maybe pay with my stockpiled ISK for a while.
Wonder if this news will impact the PLEX market, probably so, but which way?
Well if it moves beyond the rumor stage, then PLEX prices will drop like a rock. They're being artificially manipulated by the richest few in the game at the moment. If the future of the game becomes uncertain, then many would look to offload what they have.
They had a great opportunity , being the only real space RPG game out there. Their stoic insistence on 100% PVP or go away has finally caught up with them.
This company has always confused me, they have just made odd decision after odd decision over the years, releasing dust for the PS, not committing to anything outside of EVE or that would truly expand EVE. Not expanding their revenue model when they knew they needed to, etc...
As far as I'm concerned, only one mistake happened that ever mattered: they never finished the World of Darkness MMORPG.
They had a great opportunity , being the only real space RPG game out there. Their stoic insistence on 100% PVP or go away has finally caught up with them.
Can't wait to see them close up that game.
I know right? Cause there are noooo pure PVE games to play at all. Damn you CCP for offering people a PVP experience!
5) Which brings me to another issue. Cronyism. CCP is one of the most racially homogeneous companies you can imagine at the management levels. If you aren't Icelandic, then you don't become a manager, and in the rare case that you do make it to management as a foreigner, then you're shut out of any decisions involving the future of the company. I get the information from people that I played EVE with in 2005, who left playing the game to develop the game. They state privately that non-Icelanders are second class citizens within the company.
This is not something that I have a problem with at a base level to be honest. I'm not a flag waving diversity forcing millennial. However, when it's clear that the management isn't cutting the mustard and you can't find managers within your own country who can actually ship a goddamn successful fucking product, then you start looking for good managers no matter where they come from. I would tell them to shape the fuck up and make a winning product, or they can go back to welding ships together in the shipyards while we get real, dedicated and visionary management from outside the company.
Go on and say who the devs were. You aren't putting anyone in danger of career loss. It's consider hear-say at best. Easily deniable by the people you name. That said I don't find what you say all that hard to be believe. But I am also slightly gullible at times. . There was always a lot of pride about this being an Iceland company. Maybe even borderline arrogance at times. I don't know that I see anything that wrong with it. Good-ole boy system exists everywhere in various versions. It won't ever be done away with truthfully.
I wish Loktofeit was still around to shed some light.
? He get banned? and shed light how? There's some pretty big names in the Eve community still around. Though I haven't seen the ones which I recognize comment yet.
played even since 2005 and for high sec pve players the game has become a gank fest and instead of looking after them when they used to make up at least half the population they screwed them so most have left, i mainly pvp so i still play though there are mechanics that they should of fixed or made better 10 years ago they they never touched because the biggest alliances like the edge they give them which has also caused a large decline in the pvp layer as they get sick of the crap.. tried a alpha clone the new free to play and its a non timed trial they cant do shit lol.Eve has nearly no competition if they had looked after there pve community they would still be going hard but a lot of games currently have learnt this to late. from what i have seen in alot of games pvper all run to the newest thing every time one comes out were as pvers seem to stick to games for the long haul
They KNOW their game will lose value as SC inches closer to full release.So the best time to sell is when it is at full maximum value.That time was actually 2-3 years ago as they were spending tons on a new content idea called Dust because there was lots of hype,now nobody cares,so they missed that boat.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Wow. They had a license to print money and squandered it.
Got overambitious with too many properties at once. The ones that they did manage to get to market failed horribly.
If they had of just stuck with Eve they would have been fine.
That's not true at all. The issue isn't with their management of resources, but their decline in subscriptions. At it's peak EVE was at around 500k subscribers and, now, it's estimated that half that or less. They attempted to diversify their portfolio with no success, you're right, but that wasn't the nail in the coffin, inevitability was.
The number of people playing Eve hasn't changed much. Those playing Eve are giving up on multiple subscriptions, except for whales who still have 30 or more subs and boxes.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Konfess said:
The number of people playing Eve hasn't changed much. Those playing Eve are giving up on multiple subscriptions, except for whales who still have 30 or more subs and boxes.
Comments
So CCP now have a choice.
(Try and) Sell the business to an "investment company" like e.g. CN. They run Eve until subs decline to something "close to zero" at which point they close the game. If they get the sums right they get back what they paid for it + a profit.
CCP could adopt this approach of course.
(Try and) Sell the business to a "development company" that might run Eve and seek to develop it. If Eve can indeed be "developed" - I'm sure there is stuff that can be done but at the end of the day its not a PvE game that you can create a new zone and some quests for. Its self-sustaining in that sense.
Cut the cost maybe?
There are pressures on the horizon. The decline in subs may well come with a decline in new subscribers. Amazon are waiting in the wings, Star Citizen and so forth. Things may be healthy today but if this news is true it suggests that they may be wondering "for how long?".
Yes, 2012... I think Eve Online decline started with this:
http://kotaku.com/5896611/suicidal-player-laughed-at-then-trolled-at-eve-online-gathering
(Punishment for that bully,The Mittani, was only one month ban.)
After that they just followed same advice as The Mittani gave to that depressed player.
The original servers that they bought to start running EVE, which weren't very powerful as they were dirt poor at the time.
Then in 2008-2009 they upgraded to IBM HS21 bladecenters and some RamSan database servers which was a huge hardware improvement. The game performed a whole hell of a lot better for a few years afterwards.
In 2015 they upgraded their hardware yet again from the Blades to the new IBM Flex servers. The majority of their systems are all still pure hardware, however, they also built two Virtual nodes running VMWare. Now, I've been maintaining VMWare based servers with ESXi Host Noes for about eight years now, so I know quite a bit about them, and I don't think it was such a great investment to be honest.
Virtual Machines are great when you're hardware isn't getting used very much. If you have a single hardware server, for instance, that is nothing but your Domain Controller and all it really does is authenticate users, well that's a hell of a waste of hardware resources. So instead you virtualize part of your server stack and make your DC a virtual server, like I've done on my current servers, and now you have all of those CPU cycles that can be used for other tasks, on other virtual servers, than just a millisecond here and there to check logins.
But with gaming hardware that runs 24/7? I find it hard to believe that those servers aren't running pretty hard all day with computations, so I'm not sure why they would need to go virtual at all. But then, I don't work in their server room, so I have no metrics for proof.
Those numbers support exactly what I said. Eve Online has made money every year since it's release and the costs to maintain Eve are minimal.
2013-2014 they lost $85 million dollars. Compare that to the $28 million dollars they made between 2008 and 2012.
You quickly get an idea of why they are in the position they are in. They pissed away all their profit on too many failed and cancelled projects.
It seemed like after they first purchased White Wolf they grew a big chip on their shoulder. They had a new division in White Wolf, they were working on "walking in stations" which would have brought some new people into the game and they were working on Dust. Everything was great, money was rolling in and they were kings of the world growing at a rapid pace. I saw this way back when they first introduced White Wolf at a fanfest and made it clear that "the one wearing the kilt was in charge".
Moving in multiple directions, pushing their game as a gank/murder simulator with the "Be the Villain" marketing campaign and making bad business decisions like making Dust a console exclusive all lead to this. While I think Hilmar is an incredible leader, his growing hubris was visible to anyone who was watching.
I guess the toughest one would be "how can we change the game to be more profitable and attract more new players without going too carebear and losing the hardcore players on the other hand?"
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
I self identify as a monkey.
Eve Online itself is doing great if you look at the numbers. There has been a decline but it still has healthy profit margins.
The problem is the $176 million CCP spent on R&D from 2012-2015.
Maybe they should have had a separate compnay for R&D so they could bankrupt it when they need to. Like hollywood does!
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Some had phases for example Sub to F2P and others were shut down with a 30 days warning.
The question you need to ask is, why would a healthy and profitable MMO/Company be looking for buyers?
Are the owners retiring to the Bahamas? Is the execute board fed up of getting money?
Of course not. CCP is losing money and there is only so much a company loses before giving the oh so well known message of:
"It was a long journey..."
"Thank you. Thank you for all the good years..."
"To all our fans and players..."
"The time has come..."
And so many other introductions to the dreaded news.
New players can get a welcome package and old/returning players can also get a welcome back package and 7 days free subscription time! Just click here to use my referral invitation
Maybe pay with my stockpiled ISK for a while.
Wonder if this news will impact the PLEX market, probably so, but which way?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
They had a great opportunity , being the only real space RPG game out there. Their stoic insistence on 100% PVP or go away has finally caught up with them.
Can't wait to see them close up that game.
They KNOW their game will lose value as SC inches closer to full release.So the best time to sell is when it is at full maximum value.That time was actually 2-3 years ago as they were spending tons on a new content idea called Dust because there was lots of hype,now nobody cares,so they missed that boat.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The number of people playing Eve hasn't changed much. Those playing Eve are giving up on multiple subscriptions, except for whales who still have 30 or more subs and boxes.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.