I don't understand how difficult it is for people to understand this simple concept, it's statistics lads. By saying Pantheon can count on 50k players top is shortsighted to say the least as statistically doesn't make any sense, it would equal the 0.2% of the MMO total player base, which basically means you have better chances of getting struck by a lightning than players liking Old School MMOs.
Well said and articulated -- thanks for helping me get my point across
And agreed -- from a business perspective our company and project are very profitable even using extremely conservative numbers. Like you said, its statistics combined with no other games really competing in the same space/sub-genre.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
I don't understand how difficult it is for people to understand this simple concept, it's statistics lads. By saying Pantheon can count on 50k players top is shortsighted to say the least as statistically doesn't make any sense, it would equal the 0.2% of the MMO total player base, which basically means you have better chances of getting struck by a lightning than players liking Old School MMOs.
Well said and articulated -- thanks for helping me get my point across
And agreed -- from a business perspective our company and project are very profitable even using extremely conservative numbers. Like you said, its statistics combined with no other games really competing in the same space/sub-genre.
I agree it's not rocket science, I compend you for commenting. Now prepare for the onslaught of certain people.
The only serious disagreement I've seen about my
assertions above are by those who feel that people's tastes in gaming do truly
change over time. In other words, while gamer A loved the earlier MMOs,
over time his or her tastes in gaming have significantly changed, and what they
loved back then truly no longer appeals to them. Evidence cited to
support this assertion usually goes something like 'well, you don't see games
like that being developed anymore, so there must not be a demand for them.'
And it's not just gaming, its other forms of entertainment (movies,
music, etc.).
I wouldn't argue it's necessarily taste that changes. I'd say the problem is over exposure to certain mechanics is just normal in this genre, given how much time they require; especially in regard to time that is devoted to repetitive tasks. When every MMORPG has the same time based grinds it can just grow stale, that's simply inevitability at work.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That's why we're determined
that Pantheon players can log in 1-2 hours and absolutely accomplish something.
And when doing quests or diving deep into a dungeon require more time,
there must be ways where players can log off safely and then reconvene a few
days later. Keeping groups together through offline travel, through
spells and abilities, not slowing progress to a stop if a person dies or
goes offline... in older games people just had to put up with this (or they
didn't and moved on). That's not acceptable in 2016. We're making a
social game with a focus on grouping. This means we have a responsibility
to help groups come together, stay together, and get back together. And
yes, even if you do have a full-time job, a spouse, kids etc.
This is the best thing I have read on here ever.
Now someone tell me what offline travel is. That is new to me.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
That's why we're determined
that Pantheon players can log in 1-2 hours and absolutely accomplish something.
And when doing quests or diving deep into a dungeon require more time,
there must be ways where players can log off safely and then reconvene a few
days later. Keeping groups together through offline travel, through
spells and abilities, not slowing progress to a stop if a person dies or
goes offline... in older games people just had to put up with this (or they
didn't and moved on). That's not acceptable in 2016. We're making a
social game with a focus on grouping. This means we have a responsibility
to help groups come together, stay together, and get back together. And
yes, even if you do have a full-time job, a spouse, kids etc.
This is the best thing I have read on here ever.
Now someone tell me what offline travel is. That is new to me.
This is a good way to deal with current times and changing attitudes. Good job and bravo for the forward thinking approach.
That's why we're determined
that Pantheon players can log in 1-2 hours and absolutely accomplish something.
And when doing quests or diving deep into a dungeon require more time,
there must be ways where players can log off safely and then reconvene a few
days later. Keeping groups together through offline travel, through
spells and abilities, not slowing progress to a stop if a person dies or
goes offline... in older games people just had to put up with this (or they
didn't and moved on). That's not acceptable in 2016. We're making a
social game with a focus on grouping. This means we have a responsibility
to help groups come together, stay together, and get back together. And
yes, even if you do have a full-time job, a spouse, kids etc.
This is the best thing I have read on here ever.
Now someone tell me what offline travel is. That is new to me.
The primary example is the Caravan System. You can link up with a party and if you and they agree you will move when they move even if you are not logged in. For example, you couldn't log in last night but your friends traveled to the other side of the continent. When you log in today you are given the option of appearing where you last logged off or where the Caravan did. It's a way to keep groups together even if everyone isn't logged in at the same time while keeping travel distances real (somebody has to make the journey).
This is a simple description, of course, and there will be restrictions. Likely you'll have to have traveled to where they are going online at least once. Likely if they went into a dungeon you would find yourself at the dungeon's entrance, not suddenly deep inside with them (after which they could Call of Hero you, etc.).
Here's how it worked in Vanguard (although that doesn't mean we're copying it exactly -- emphasis mine):
Caravans offer a unique method to help players get around in Vanguard and keep together with friends even when offline. Players can join a caravan and then log out within 10 Minutes and after 3 hours offline they will have the option of moving their character to the location of caravan leader or remain where they originally left their character. Caravans make it easy for players to stick together when playing so that instead of spending time trying to find your friend you can spend your time adventuring and having fun instead of traveling to your friends.
In order to create a Caravan simply target a nearby player and right click on the player you want to have join your caravan. If the player accepts the invite they will join your caravan. At that time they will have to log out without 10 minutes and stay offline for 3 hours. When they log back in they will be prompted to either go to the location of the caravan leader or if they have changed their mind stay at the location that they originally logged out in.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
The only serious disagreement I've seen about my
assertions above are by those who feel that people's tastes in gaming do truly
change over time. In other words, while gamer A loved the earlier MMOs,
over time his or her tastes in gaming have significantly changed, and what they
loved back then truly no longer appeals to them. Evidence cited to
support this assertion usually goes something like 'well, you don't see games
like that being developed anymore, so there must not be a demand for them.'
And it's not just gaming, its other forms of entertainment (movies,
music, etc.).
I wouldn't argue it's necessarily taste that changes. I'd say the problem is over exposure to certain mechanics is just normal in this genre, given how much time they require; especially in regard to time that is devoted to repetitive tasks. When every MMORPG has the same time based grinds it can just grow stale, that's simply inevitability at work.
Framed within the downtime and combat pacing discussion, if there is downtime then make it interesting. Rather than just regen and wait. If the activities between combat are engaging then the downtime isn't tedious.
It's not always about convenience in modern gaming. It's about making the time productive and engaging.
Maybe the over exposure to certain mechanics and conditions can be removed by maturing and evolving those things to make the game more interesting.
I agree. Some of these mechanics like 'downtime' are crucial to the game but there's no reason they can't be made more interesting while still fulfilling their purpose.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with removing downtime, is that it makes the combat and dangerous locales less engaging by removing the tension associated with maintaining the necessary resources to survive. Who cares if you're in a scary dungeon surrounded by mobs if you never have to worry about being vulnerable?
The problem with removing downtime, is that it makes the combat and dangerous locales less engaging by removing the tension associated with maintaining the necessary resources to survive. Who cares if you're in a scary dungeon surrounded by mobs if you never have to worry about being vulnerable?
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
The problem with removing downtime, is that it makes the combat and dangerous locales less engaging by removing the tension associated with maintaining the necessary resources to survive. Who cares if you're in a scary dungeon surrounded by mobs if you never have to worry about being vulnerable?
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
Agreed. Having played MMO's with and without downtime, the games with downtime resulted in much better social interactions.
An LDoN in EQ1 and a flashpoint in SWTOR, once the groups were formed and you started they were basically the same thing with and without down time.
In SWTOR you never really spoke to anyone in your group. The flashpoint was all just a race to get to the end as fast as possible. During cut scenes, you may have someone in the group speak up, but only to tell a teammate to hurry up making their dialogue selection. Other than that, you'd be in combat the whole time and never have the opportunity to socialize.
In EQ1, there would be times throughout the LDoN mission where your group had to rest. This forced the group to slow down and gave you a little time to get to know the group you were adventuring with. A much more enjoyable experience IMHO.
The problem with removing downtime, is that it makes the combat and dangerous locales less engaging by removing the tension associated with maintaining the necessary resources to survive. Who cares if you're in a scary dungeon surrounded by mobs if you never have to worry about being vulnerable?
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
Gems minigame! (ugh.... just no)
Not a bad suggestion in concept actually. Would be interesting if there was something interactive to do during the downtime, maybe even a way to increase mana/health regen by performing certain actions, solving puzzles, doing a mini-game, etc.
The problem with removing downtime, is that it makes the combat and dangerous locales less engaging by removing the tension associated with maintaining the necessary resources to survive. Who cares if you're in a scary dungeon surrounded by mobs if you never have to worry about being vulnerable?
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
Gems minigame! (ugh.... just no)
Not a bad suggestion in concept actually. Would be interesting if there was something interactive to do during the downtime, maybe even a way to increase mana/health regen by performing certain actions, solving puzzles, doing a mini-game, etc.
No thanks, fucking mini games lol.
What's wrong with just sitting and talking or working out a strategy for the dungeon ahead. Remember your not sitting there long enough to do a freaking mini game Lmfao.
In EQ people sat and talked or you took a quick bio break.
Not for me, minigames simply kill the immersion for me. Downtime should be rest - as in no action, the best way to make it meaningful is to make it short enough to still be enjoyable and fun.
minute + dowmtime between non-boss fights = too long
15-25 sec is the sweet spot IMO.
The issue is the type of downtime is all relevant. In EQ, when I was puller, my group NEVER had mana management downtime once camp was established. During the initial, camp break, there was. However after breaking the camp.. the downtime was virtually non-existent within the mechanics of EQ ( ie healers/casters were medding during the fight).
With a crap group, downtime definitely existed... but that was a consequence of being a crappy player. Overhealing, overnuking, just being a horrible player in general.
The only other time real downtime occured is when key members ( tank, healer, CC, or puller) had to take an AFK ... but that is not the games fault.
In the end, Good players know how to play and minimize downtime, and crappy players don't...
The problem with removing downtime, is that it makes the combat and dangerous locales less engaging by removing the tension associated with maintaining the necessary resources to survive. Who cares if you're in a scary dungeon surrounded by mobs if you never have to worry about being vulnerable?
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
Gems minigame! (ugh.... just no)
Not a bad suggestion in concept actually. Would be interesting if there was something interactive to do during the downtime, maybe even a way to increase mana/health regen by performing certain actions, solving puzzles, doing a mini-game, etc.
No thanks, fucking mini games lol.
What's wrong with just sitting and talking or working out a strategy for the dungeon ahead. Remember your not sitting there long enough to do a freaking mini game Lmfao.
In EQ people sat and talked or you took a quick bio break.
Mini games a big fat no.
The entire suggestion was "performing certain actions, solving puzzles, doing a mini-game, etc." and was in response to the notion that downtime will be of at least some significant time, going by Brad's comment:
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
The problem with removing downtime, is that it makes the combat and dangerous locales less engaging by removing the tension associated with maintaining the necessary resources to survive. Who cares if you're in a scary dungeon surrounded by mobs if you never have to worry about being vulnerable?
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
What about taking a few notes from LotRO?
Add fluff things to do during downtime like smoking a pipe. Maybe even make it its own skill for players to level with the higher skill levels allowing cooler smoke images .. Hahaha.
Or perhaps using a similar system to the ABC music system they used for players to compose their own music and then play it in game. That was always a fun distraction during downtime.
The problem with removing downtime, is that it makes the combat and dangerous locales less engaging by removing the tension associated with maintaining the necessary resources to survive. Who cares if you're in a scary dungeon surrounded by mobs if you never have to worry about being vulnerable?
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
Gems minigame! (ugh.... just no)
Not a bad suggestion in concept actually. Would be interesting if there was something interactive to do during the downtime, maybe even a way to increase mana/health regen by performing certain actions, solving puzzles, doing a mini-game, etc.
Not for me, minigames simply kill the immersion for me. Downtime should be rest - as in no action, the best way to make it meaningful is to make it short enough to still be enjoyable and fun.
minute + dowmtime between non-boss fights = too long
15-25 sec is the sweet spot IMO.
...In some survival and sim types of games you need to deconstruct the materials you want after battle. Maybe skinning an animal (even WoW has a short timer meter for skinning), or harvesting bits, or whatever. I'm not sure exactly what activities would fit in with Pantheon game play but I do know that it's worth exploring so you don't end up with a bunch of resource bar players sitting why everyone else in the party is engaging in game play...
Agreed, and that's essentially what I was referring to, in concept, in my previous posts. If the pause between fights will be of any significant length, then it would be interesting to have something interactive to do, rather than just staring at replenishing health/mana bars.
Why does it have to be the enchanter who gives mana reagen? TBH I hope they don't copy EQ classes to the letter - why not have a Druid doing 'natures insight' as a kinda mana reagen? Following me? To me it seems they follow the EQ classes a little bit too much to the letter. And if they do, the Druid will be the less useful group class aside from casting natures protection... their dps will be overpowered by a wizard/rogue their off-healing by a shaman because his slow is so important. For me I hope they add new abilities that add new ways of playing - like their talk of pillars clerics can put down at high level... druids can raise plants from the ground blocking monsters ways, overpower creatures and have them fight for you.. so on
yeah I was a Druid in EQ and I hope to be in this title too
what worried me is the poor healer , siting while others fight , and only stop resting to heal , and back to sit again....that reminds me eq , ffxi times and it was boring , hope we can get some love for mana users....because no1 likes doing nothing while others have "fun"
i dont mind some break here and there to rest and chat (i miss it)....but everyone not just the heal and mage
Yep would be awesome if healers too can add in on the fight, doing some damage, debuffs, hit me over the head with their hammer, selfimbueing weapons to hit hard etc... sit - heal - sit ... that would get me to quit fast out of boredom
was fine for me on raids in healing rotation, but out of a raid I was dps mostly (Druid)
Ah, downtime. The concept of not being able to play the game in between periods of playing the game while playing the game.
If they add "activities" to do during down time (like, I don't know, playing a mini-game to regenerate mana faster), it's no longer really downtime anyways. At most, it'll just be awkward. And if down time was there to facilitate chatting, I'd think most people would rather go to a chat room to chat if they wanted to chat, rather than play a game that makes them chat just because they need something to do during "downtime". So I don't really see the point. I think when most people play a game, they play that game to play that game, not to sit on their ass or play an alternate mini-game or have nothing to do but chat for whatever amount of time.
But then, that's why Pantheon will be niche, I suppose.
Ah, downtime. The concept of not being able to play the game in between periods of playing the game while playing the game.
If they add "activities" to do during down time (like, I don't know, playing a mini-game to regenerate mana faster), it's no longer really downtime anyways. At most, it'll just be awkward. And if down time was there to facilitate chatting, I'd think most people would rather go to a chat room to chat if they wanted to chat, rather than play a game that makes them chat just because they need something to do during "downtime". So I don't really see the point. I think when most people play a game, they play that game to play that game, not to sit on their ass or play an alternate mini-game or have nothing to do but chat for whatever amount of time.
But then, that's why Pantheon will be niche, I suppose.
The point is when you remove downtime, everything becomes less dangerous. No need to worry about repops, roamers, properly paced pulls, or managing mana for peak efficiency. Without downtime, there would simply be less tension or excitement in combat.
Ah, downtime. The concept of not being able to play the game in between periods of playing the game while playing the game.
If they add "activities" to do during down time (like, I don't know, playing a mini-game to regenerate mana faster), it's no longer really downtime anyways. At most, it'll just be awkward. And if down time was there to facilitate chatting, I'd think most people would rather go to a chat room to chat if they wanted to chat, rather than play a game that makes them chat just because they need something to do during "downtime". So I don't really see the point. I think when most people play a game, they play that game to play that game, not to sit on their ass or play an alternate mini-game or have nothing to do but chat for whatever amount of time.
But then, that's why Pantheon will be niche, I suppose.
The point is when you remove downtime, everything becomes less dangerous. No need to worry about repops, roamers, properly paced pulls, or managing mana for peak efficiency. Without downtime, there would simply be less tension or excitement in combat.
I'd rather constantly be IN exciting combat than be excited by the prospect of combat MAYBE starting before I'm ready because I'm in the middle of downtime, and I'm sure the vast majority of players feel the same way.
But not everyone does, as made clear by some posters in this thread. So Pantheon has its niche there.
Ah, downtime. The concept of not being able to play the game in between periods of playing the game while playing the game.
If they add "activities" to do during down time (like, I don't know, playing a mini-game to regenerate mana faster), it's no longer really downtime anyways. At most, it'll just be awkward. And if down time was there to facilitate chatting, I'd think most people would rather go to a chat room to chat if they wanted to chat, rather than play a game that makes them chat just because they need something to do during "downtime". So I don't really see the point. I think when most people play a game, they play that game to play that game, not to sit on their ass or play an alternate mini-game or have nothing to do but chat for whatever amount of time.
But then, that's why Pantheon will be niche, I suppose.
The point is when you remove downtime, everything becomes less dangerous. No need to worry about repops, roamers, properly paced pulls, or managing mana for peak efficiency. Without downtime, there would simply be less tension or excitement in combat.
I'd rather constantly be IN exciting combat than be excited by the prospect of combat MAYBE starting before I'm ready because I'm in the middle of downtime, and I'm sure the vast majority of players feel the same way.
But not everyone does, as made clear by some posters in this thread. So Pantheon has its niche there.
....hopefully, for their sake, of course.
And I think you're grossly underestimating the appeal of an MMORPG with a dangerous and unforgiving world.
Comments
And agreed -- from a business perspective our company and project are very profitable even using extremely conservative numbers. Like you said, its statistics combined with no other games really competing in the same space/sub-genre.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
I agree it's not rocket science, I compend you for commenting. Now prepare for the onslaught of certain people.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Now someone tell me what offline travel is. That is new to me.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
This is a simple description, of course, and there will be restrictions. Likely you'll have to have traveled to where they are going online at least once. Likely if they went into a dungeon you would find yourself at the dungeon's entrance, not suddenly deep inside with them (after which they could Call of Hero you, etc.).
Here's how it worked in Vanguard (although that doesn't mean we're copying it exactly -- emphasis mine):
Caravans offer a unique method to help players get around in Vanguard and keep together with friends even when offline. Players can join a caravan and then log out within 10 Minutes and after 3 hours offline they will have the option of moving their character to the location of caravan leader or remain where they originally left their character. Caravans make it easy for players to stick together when playing so that instead of spending time trying to find your friend you can spend your time adventuring and having fun instead of traveling to your friends.
In order to create a Caravan simply target a nearby player and right click on the player you want to have join your caravan. If the player accepts the invite they will join your caravan. At that time they will have to log out without 10 minutes and stay offline for 3 hours. When they log back in they will be prompted to either go to the location of the caravan leader or if they have changed their mind stay at the location that they originally logged out in.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
An LDoN in EQ1 and a flashpoint in SWTOR, once the groups were formed and you started they were basically the same thing with and without down time.
In SWTOR you never really spoke to anyone in your group. The flashpoint was all just a race to get to the end as fast as possible. During cut scenes, you may have someone in the group speak up, but only to tell a teammate to hurry up making their dialogue selection. Other than that, you'd be in combat the whole time and never have the opportunity to socialize.
In EQ1, there would be times throughout the LDoN mission where your group had to rest. This forced the group to slow down and gave you a little time to get to know the group you were adventuring with. A much more enjoyable experience IMHO.
No thanks, fucking mini games lol.
What's wrong with just sitting and talking or working out a strategy for the dungeon ahead. Remember your not sitting there long enough to do a freaking mini game Lmfao.
In EQ people sat and talked or you took a quick bio break.
Mini games a big fat no.
With a crap group, downtime definitely existed... but that was a consequence of being a crappy player. Overhealing, overnuking, just being a horrible player in general.
The only other time real downtime occured is when key members ( tank, healer, CC, or puller) had to take an AFK ... but that is not the games fault.
In the end, Good players know how to play and minimize downtime, and crappy players don't...
No chance of removing it, just exploring ideas to make playing and viewing the game during such important times more appealing.
Add fluff things to do during downtime like smoking a pipe. Maybe even make it its own skill for players to level with the higher skill levels allowing cooler smoke images .. Hahaha.
Or perhaps using a similar system to the ABC music system they used for players to compose their own music and then play it in game. That was always a fun distraction during downtime.
All of these things would add to filling in "downtime." Durations can matter as well.
Just my 2cp
Can not wait for this game!!
yeah I was a Druid in EQ and I hope to be in this title too
Yep would be awesome if healers too can add in on the fight, doing some damage, debuffs, hit me over the head with their hammer, selfimbueing weapons to hit hard etc... sit - heal - sit ... that would get me to quit fast out of boredom
was fine for me on raids in healing rotation, but out of a raid I was dps mostly (Druid)
If they add "activities" to do during down time (like, I don't know, playing a mini-game to regenerate mana faster), it's no longer really downtime anyways. At most, it'll just be awkward. And if down time was there to facilitate chatting, I'd think most people would rather go to a chat room to chat if they wanted to chat, rather than play a game that makes them chat just because they need something to do during "downtime". So I don't really see the point. I think when most people play a game, they play that game to play that game, not to sit on their ass or play an alternate mini-game or have nothing to do but chat for whatever amount of time.
But then, that's why Pantheon will be niche, I suppose.
But not everyone does, as made clear by some posters in this thread. So Pantheon has its niche there.
....hopefully, for their sake, of course.