I'd say potions are hard/expensive to obtain, so you won't be using them all of the time. But when prepping for a boss encounter, you'll want every advantage and that's where the right tactics, buffs, group composition, items equipped, and potions (and other consumables) really come into play.
I remember EQ Raid preparations, they were one of the most exciting part of the game. Making sure all the right classes for the specific encounter were there, double checking all the buffs were up, praying that the Healers would turn up (they usually did at the last second), going through the tactics before engaging, all spiced up by some good banter to relax the nerves. Damn, I miss those days.
I really wish they would allow casters / healers to be mobile, no matter the speed of mana regen. That way dungeon crawling is an option just as viable as camping. No sitting required, mana regens the same rate whether moving to the next level or area or just sitting around and chatting with the group. Group mobility should not be encumbered by mana regeneration mechanics. I truly believe groups will be more inclined to explore and graze content more widely if they are just as efficient regenerating mana standing up as they are sitting down. Give people choices while still maintaining the combat pacing that old schoolers tend to prefer.
WHO enjoys sitting down for hours, looking at blue mana bar - watching red bars getting low - sitting up to make red bars full and then sitting down again for 99% of the time.
This is what makes having an enchanter in your group so valuable (you need their Clarity spell for quicker mana regen). You need to rely on other players to make your experience better to make your combined sets of abilities stronger. INTERDEPENDENCE
Even with Clarity the regen was too slow - healers still sat on their butts majority of the time.
Well of course they sit down, to get that extra regen bonus, every little bit counts... but at the cost of possibly drawing more aggro... It's all give and take...
This, plus enchanters being able to speed up regen and working on your meditation skill. Also thinking about potions (consumables) to speed this up. It needs to be there (regeneration, meditation) but it need not be tedious.
How does tying this mechanic into mobility add depth to the game play? Why do melee characters not suffer the same fate? It should be a choice if people camp in one spot or crawl through the content, but if casters are stuck on their asses most of the time, camping is all there is.
It adds depth to the game because it requires strategy -- mana dumping and then going melee isn't the only strategy, nor the best strategy most of the time (I'm sure there could be a boss mob, of course, where dumping everyone on him *is* part of the strategy).
Also melee characters have to watch endurance. Some/many will also use mana and other resources, although of course not as dependent upon those resources as a caster.
That's incredibly disappointing. I'm afraid that is a game killer for me. I don't mind downtime, but I do mind being stuck on my character's ass during and between combat. I shouldn't feel penalized as a caster if I want to get up and gather resources while I regen mana nor do I want to sit back and do nothing when I run out of mana. I love slower paced game play, but not at the expense of sitting and doing nothing constructive while regenerating mana.
You did a much better job of this in Vanguard and I'm frankly puzzled and irritated that you would go back to the old EQ method rather than following Vanguard's much more modern yet still slower paced combat without the anchor of ass sitting.
Pick your task.. either you are medding to get mana back more quickly to farm more mobs or you are gathering resources. Why should you get to regen mana faster while you are performing the task of gathering resources? You can either choose to gather resources or choose to med and get mana back faster. Choices my friend. And WHY would that be a game breaker for anyone? Seems silly to me that THAT is the game killer.
To each their own though... I'm sure you will be missed by the Pantheon community Good luck on your next gaming venture.
No biggie. I wasted money investing into this game, lesson learned. I wanted a virtual world with slower paced game play, but the thought of going back to meditating during combat and sitting on your virtual ass for a lot of your game time is not what I ever want to do again. Perhaps this is my sign to exit the genre. I rarely play online anymore as it is. I don't like the arcade gameplay that appears to be the future of this genre and I don't want to return to the annoying old school mechanics that remove you from playing the game either. No happy medium for a gamer like me it seems.
I won't be missed, but then again, I likely won't miss this much either, heh.
I wouldn't jump to any conclusions based on what we've seen in pre-alpha and the prognostication of fans. I don't personally believe meditation during combat is essential for creating a dependence on resources or downtime. We should probably wait and see what they come up with.
No biggie. I wasted money investing into this game, lesson learned. I wanted a virtual world with slower paced game play, but the thought of going back to meditating during combat and sitting on your virtual ass for a lot of your game time is not what I ever want to do again. Perhaps this is my sign to exit the genre. I rarely play online anymore as it is. I don't like the arcade gameplay that appears to be the future of this genre and I don't want to return to the annoying old school mechanics that remove you from playing the game either. No happy medium for a gamer like me it seems.
I won't be missed, but then again, I likely won't miss this much either, heh.
just curious but why not play a non mana using class? if you hate meddling so much, pick a class that doesn't need it.
I really wish they would allow casters / healers to be mobile, no matter the speed of mana regen. That way dungeon crawling is an option just as viable as camping. No sitting required, mana regens the same rate whether moving to the next level or area or just sitting around and chatting with the group. Group mobility should not be encumbered by mana regeneration mechanics. I truly believe groups will be more inclined to explore and graze content more widely if they are just as efficient regenerating mana standing up as they are sitting down. Give people choices while still maintaining the combat pacing that old schoolers tend to prefer.
WHO enjoys sitting down for hours, looking at blue mana bar - watching red bars getting low - sitting up to make red bars full and then sitting down again for 99% of the time.
This is what makes having an enchanter in your group so valuable (you need their Clarity spell for quicker mana regen). You need to rely on other players to make your experience better to make your combined sets of abilities stronger. INTERDEPENDENCE
Even with Clarity the regen was too slow - healers still sat on their butts majority of the time.
Well of course they sit down, to get that extra regen bonus, every little bit counts... but at the cost of possibly drawing more aggro... It's all give and take...
This, plus enchanters being able to speed up regen and working on your meditation skill. Also thinking about potions (consumables) to speed this up. It needs to be there (regeneration, meditation) but it need not be tedious.
How does tying this mechanic into mobility add depth to the game play? Why do melee characters not suffer the same fate? It should be a choice if people camp in one spot or crawl through the content, but if casters are stuck on their asses most of the time, camping is all there is.
It adds depth to the game because it requires strategy -- mana dumping and then going melee isn't the only strategy, nor the best strategy most of the time (I'm sure there could be a boss mob, of course, where dumping everyone on him *is* part of the strategy).
Also melee characters have to watch endurance. Some/many will also use mana and other resources, although of course not as dependent upon those resources as a caster.
That's incredibly disappointing. I'm afraid that is a game killer for me. I don't mind downtime, but I do mind being stuck on my character's ass during and between combat. I shouldn't feel penalized as a caster if I want to get up and gather resources while I regen mana nor do I want to sit back and do nothing when I run out of mana. I love slower paced game play, but not at the expense of sitting and doing nothing constructive while regenerating mana.
You did a much better job of this in Vanguard and I'm frankly puzzled and irritated that you would go back to the old EQ method rather than following Vanguard's much more modern yet still slower paced combat without the anchor of ass sitting.
Pick your task.. either you are medding to get mana back more quickly to farm more mobs or you are gathering resources. Why should you get to regen mana faster while you are performing the task of gathering resources? You can either choose to gather resources or choose to med and get mana back faster. Choices my friend. And WHY would that be a game breaker for anyone? Seems silly to me that THAT is the game killer.
To each their own though... I'm sure you will be missed by the Pantheon community Good luck on your next gaming venture.
No biggie. I wasted money investing into this game, lesson learned. I wanted a virtual world with slower paced game play, but the thought of going back to meditating during combat and sitting on your virtual ass for a lot of your game time is not what I ever want to do again. Perhaps this is my sign to exit the genre. I rarely play online anymore as it is. I don't like the arcade gameplay that appears to be the future of this genre and I don't want to return to the annoying old school mechanics that remove you from playing the game either. No happy medium for a gamer like me it seems.
I won't be missed, but then again, I likely won't miss this much either, heh.
Could always roll a character that's dependent on position for maximum damage, that'll keep you moving and always doing something... Classic EQ Rouge comes to mind...
Compared to other indy games or AAA games? Because compared to other indy games it's looking great.
Compared to AAA games, the world looks great but other aspects don't compare well.
Again, and I'll keep saying this, players need to adjust expectations with Indy games.
What they seem to want is all the freedom of an indy studio but the huge budgets of the AAA studios and that's just not going to happen or at least will be rare.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Ok first of I suggest you watch the full Twitch 3 Part coverage on CohhCarnage Channel I strongly suggest you watch that on FULL HD as the difference between the default and the HD version is quite noticeable. Secondly just keep in mind this game is in Pre-Alpha, it is way behind Camelot Unchained or Crowfall. Before I start though I want to congratulate Brad Mcquaid and his Team for the hard job they put into this game. I have to be honest, I thought Pantheon wasn't going to be made, I thought that because of the lack of (initial) crowd-funding money this game had no chance, I also didn't see much progress during those years of development, but after watching the footage I am now confident the game will be made. I also want to point out that Pantheon is the only MMO in production that didn't use Kickstarter money, so hat off to VR for managing to secure an actual third party investor, which is something that seems gone out of fashion these days. Having prefaced all of that I proceed to give my impression on Pantheon based on the Twitch footage:
1) Overall Graphics and Art Style: The Art Style is perfect for this kind of game, the world look fabulous, it seems very detailed and it feels like a real fantasy world you can immerse yourself in. Graphic quality is excellent, it is not on par with the Unreal Engine kind of graphic, but the Unity Engine seems to do an excellent job. The color palette is also spot on, not too realistic but not too cartoonish, I don't like the ultra realistic graphics on my MMOs.
2) Character and Armor Graphics: That's the best feature and biggest surprise out of this Twitch stream. The character models and the armor are absolutely amazing. They look exactly like the art style sketches, which I loved, but I feared that the beauty of it would get lost into translation once they got turned into 3D models.....that didn't happen, they look great! Races looks so unique and different and very detailed, in particular I loved the Arcai, it looks badass, it would make a perfect Necro, though I am gonna play an Ogre Tank as my main. The Armor art style is just the best I've seen in recent years, its design fits perfectly the High Fantasy settings while still retaining a realistic look, much much better than Vanguard where I thought character models and Armor design was its weakest point. Whoever is the 3D Artist.....you are doing a GREAT job! Also though still early on, animation seemed already quite decent.
3) Races and Classes: Good progress in implementing both Races and Classes, placeholders are gone (thank God) So far Arcai, Dwarf, Human, Ogre, Gnome and Elves are in. Also though I am not completely sure, it looks like Warrior, Shaman, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard and Crusader (Aradune character?) are in. Of course many spells and abilities are missing (Cleric without Resurrection?), but it seems like they are on the right track.
4) Slow Combat and Downtime: Ok, 30 seconds to kill the Scout Lizard (a trash mob)? Yes please! That's what I need in a MMO right now. Many won't like that, and it's ok, plenty of alternative to chose from. I also appreciate the downtime, the group resting to recover mana (I guess the Enchanter is not in-game yet) brought back some good memories of shit talking while waiting to get back to full HP/Mana.
5) Cooperative Group Dynamic (Quaternity): If one of the player suck the whole team will fail, simple as that. And that's how it should be. It looks like a Pantheon group needs all Roles to function, Tank, Healers, Buffers, CCers and of course DPS. This is not a game where you can DPS your way through a dungeon, you need to be tactical and make good use of all the roles the game offers for optimal results.
6) Day-Night Cycle and no Mini-map: Day-Night Cycle is in, though the Weather Cycle is not yet, but it's fine, it's already a good start for a Pre Alpha state. Also I want to point out the lack of Mini-Map, which is a positive thing, in EQ I memorized every map and ever point of interest, I didn't need a map to move around because I knew the world map by heart, that to me adds to the immersion because you have more time looking at beautiful sceneries rather than staring at the Mini-map.
7) No Quest Hub and Perception System: There are no Quest Hubs in Pantheon nor exclamation points, Quests work together with a Perception System which activates as soon as you approach a certain Area or NPC, so it is not so much the player that interacts with the environment but it is the environment that interacts with you. All you have to do is exploring and the environment will alert you if there is anything interesting to do around that Area.
8) Vertical Dungeon and Climbing System: In the Part 3 of the video they showed a Vertical Dungeon which I found impressive. Basically it is a dungeon that progress upward rather than horizontally. You'll have to literally climb the dungeon right to the top while fighting mobs. In order to do so, there is a Climbing System that allows you to hang from the cliff edges to help you climb more efficiently, though this is an ability you have to skill up, so you won't be able to climb the hardest dungeons unless you leveled the Climbing Skill. As a side note, in this dungeon you can also find an elite Dwarf who will allow you to craft Special Gear that can only be crafted in his Forge (similar to Molten Core forge in Vanilla WoW), I find this a nice touch and a good incentive for Crafters to embrace adventuring and not just sit on their asses making stuff.
I am sure many people would argue that they didn't show much, of course it's true, they didn't show anything of the other many features advertised, though they did speak about some of them during the stream. For now we'll have to do with combat, races , classes and some nice graphics, but what I've seen it's enough for me to get me excited and finally convince me to Pledge. If you really like Old School, and Cooperative Group games, this is definitely the one to watch.
Nice list of reasons why the game will not do well...
But then again, devs made clear from start they do not care about their players.
Those who are skeptical, please do me a favor and go watch their first dev video and take notice of everything - Graphics, animations, sound, lighting, etc, and watch the 2nd and compare the two. Night and day difference so you can visibly and audibly see huge strides they have taken in the time between the two videos. That speaks volumes of their work, especially being a pre-alpha phase stream. The proof is in the pudding and it's definitely showing in their work.
Ok first of I suggest you watch the full Twitch 3 Part coverage on CohhCarnage Channel I strongly suggest you watch that on FULL HD as the difference between the default and the HD version is quite noticeable. Secondly just keep in mind this game is in Pre-Alpha, it is way behind Camelot Unchained or Crowfall. Before I start though I want to congratulate Brad Mcquaid and his Team for the hard job they put into this game. I have to be honest, I thought Pantheon wasn't going to be made, I thought that because of the lack of (initial) crowd-funding money this game had no chance, I also didn't see much progress during those years of development, but after watching the footage I am now confident the game will be made. I also want to point out that Pantheon is the only MMO in production that didn't use Kickstarter money, so hat off to VR for managing to secure an actual third party investor, which is something that seems gone out of fashion these days. Having prefaced all of that I proceed to give my impression on Pantheon based on the Twitch footage:
1) Overall Graphics and Art Style: The Art Style is perfect for this kind of game, the world look fabulous, it seems very detailed and it feels like a real fantasy world you can immerse yourself in. Graphic quality is excellent, it is not on par with the Unreal Engine kind of graphic, but the Unity Engine seems to do an excellent job. The color palette is also spot on, not too realistic but not too cartoonish, I don't like the ultra realistic graphics on my MMOs.
2) Character and Armor Graphics: That's the best feature and biggest surprise out of this Twitch stream. The character models and the armor are absolutely amazing. They look exactly like the art style sketches, which I loved, but I feared that the beauty of it would get lost into translation once they got turned into 3D models.....that didn't happen, they look great! Races looks so unique and different and very detailed, in particular I loved the Arcai, it looks badass, it would make a perfect Necro, though I am gonna play an Ogre Tank as my main. The Armor art style is just the best I've seen in recent years, its design fits perfectly the High Fantasy settings while still retaining a realistic look, much much better than Vanguard where I thought character models and Armor design was its weakest point. Whoever is the 3D Artist.....you are doing a GREAT job! Also though still early on, animation seemed already quite decent.
3) Races and Classes: Good progress in implementing both Races and Classes, placeholders are gone (thank God) So far Arcai, Dwarf, Human, Ogre, Gnome and Elves are in. Also though I am not completely sure, it looks like Warrior, Shaman, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard and Crusader (Aradune character?) are in. Of course many spells and abilities are missing (Cleric without Resurrection?), but it seems like they are on the right track.
4) Slow Combat and Downtime: Ok, 30 seconds to kill the Scout Lizard (a trash mob)? Yes please! That's what I need in a MMO right now. Many won't like that, and it's ok, plenty of alternative to chose from. I also appreciate the downtime, the group resting to recover mana (I guess the Enchanter is not in-game yet) brought back some good memories of shit talking while waiting to get back to full HP/Mana.
5) Cooperative Group Dynamic (Quaternity): If one of the player suck the whole team will fail, simple as that. And that's how it should be. It looks like a Pantheon group needs all Roles to function, Tank, Healers, Buffers, CCers and of course DPS. This is not a game where you can DPS your way through a dungeon, you need to be tactical and make good use of all the roles the game offers for optimal results.
6) Day-Night Cycle and no Mini-map: Day-Night Cycle is in, though the Weather Cycle is not yet, but it's fine, it's already a good start for a Pre Alpha state. Also I want to point out the lack of Mini-Map, which is a positive thing, in EQ I memorized every map and ever point of interest, I didn't need a map to move around because I knew the world map by heart, that to me adds to the immersion because you have more time looking at beautiful sceneries rather than staring at the Mini-map.
7) No Quest Hub and Perception System: There are no Quest Hubs in Pantheon nor exclamation points, Quests work together with a Perception System which activates as soon as you approach a certain Area or NPC, so it is not so much the player that interacts with the environment but it is the environment that interacts with you. All you have to do is exploring and the environment will alert you if there is anything interesting to do around that Area.
8) Vertical Dungeon and Climbing System: In the Part 3 of the video they showed a Vertical Dungeon which I found impressive. Basically it is a dungeon that progress upward rather than horizontally. You'll have to literally climb the dungeon right to the top while fighting mobs. In order to do so, there is a Climbing System that allows you to hang from the cliff edges to help you climb more efficiently, though this is an ability you have to skill up, so you won't be able to climb the hardest dungeons unless you leveled the Climbing Skill. As a side note, in this dungeon you can also find an elite Dwarf who will allow you to craft Special Gear that can only be crafted in his Forge (similar to Molten Core forge in Vanilla WoW), I find this a nice touch and a good incentive for Crafters to embrace adventuring and not just sit on their asses making stuff.
I am sure many people would argue that they didn't show much, of course it's true, they didn't show anything of the other many features advertised, though they did speak about some of them during the stream. For now we'll have to do with combat, races , classes and some nice graphics, but what I've seen it's enough for me to get me excited and finally convince me to Pledge. If you really like Old School, and Cooperative Group games, this is definitely the one to watch.
Nice list of reasons why the game will not do well...
It's being built from the ground up for a niche audience. That has been stated everywhere. It will do fine with people who enjoy real MMORPGs and not the garbage pile of travesties that have released in the past decade~ish.
If games like EQ and FFXI are still viable for their operators to keep in action there's no reason this shouldn't find its niche market as well.
It's being built from the ground up for a niche audience.
Yeah, that is a term people who do not understand it and fanbois use for their game that is failing/failed....
EQ and FFXI have their heydays long over and it is fairly cheap to keep them going however if they knew they will make same money as they are making today, those games wouldn't be even made in the first place.
It's being built from the ground up for a niche audience.
Yeah, that is a term people who do not understand it and fanbois use for their game that is failing/failed....
EQ and FFXI have their heydays long over and it is fairly cheap to keep them going however if they knew they will make same money as they are making today, those games wouldn't be even made in the first place.
Actually our goal was 30-50k subs for EQ after a year or so. Instead we peaked at 550k subs and over 2 million in sales (making over $500M in profit for Sony with dev costs around $8M). EQ was not that expensive to make and I maintain that most MMOs don't need to be and therefore don't need to have crazy numbers of subs.
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-------------------------------------------------------------- Brad McQuaid CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc. www.pantheonmmo.com --------------------------------------------------------------
It's good to know that Brad is more realistic about Pantheon and not as carried away as you know who and predicting huge success. I think this game has a chance to do well and keeping up to 200k is already wonderful and I am happy that the team behind it is well aware of its niche appeal because as long as their goal is to attract a certain type of player is clear and they do not expect more than that. We can expect that they will keep their promises and not compromise their game trying to attract a bigger audience.
Wakefield, Paul (2012). Greatest Moments in Video Game History. That source says 450k but probably you're correct since Brad used the same figure.
What was the reason it went up between 2004-2005 which was about when WoW was released at the end of 2004 so highly unlikely it went up after 2004. Did EQ realy raise its numbers after WoW came out in November 2004 ?
Probably because the highest EQ got to was 450k I think.
Nope, it peaked at 550k.
That chart can't be right. It says that SWG only got to about 300k and we all know that every sandbox loving gamer in creation has played it (before NGE)
I find the argument that a game "takes too much time" is a very slanted view held by only the minority who think they must be on the top and competitive. Because they have to be the best, if being the best requires playing a lot then therefore there's nothing else that can possibly be enjoyed. That really couldn't be a more unfair and illogical assessment.
There is plenty to accomplish in a game like Pantheon - much like EQ - in a reasonable amount of time. You just won't be "competitive" as easily, and that's the crux of your argument. Sorry, most people don't think that way.
I find it odd a longterm MMO player wouldn't know what people mean by "takes too much time." It's not about competition, being number one, or rewards, it's about how much grind it takes to get to the good parts of the game, IE doing dungeons, being able to survive more than one hit in PVP, Crafting worthwhile items, tackling fun encounters(Bosess, elites,) etc...
Some games are just simply skimpy on those things, so in turn they often feel as though grinding worthless mobs for long winded numerical rewards, is all there is to the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
Making sure all the right classes for the specific encounter were there, double checking all the buffs were up, praying that the Healers would turn up (they usually did at the last second), going through the tactics before engaging, all spiced up by some good banter to relax the nerves.
Damn, I miss those days.
I won't be missed, but then again, I likely won't miss this much either, heh.
Compared to AAA games, the world looks great but other aspects don't compare well.
Again, and I'll keep saying this, players need to adjust expectations with Indy games.
What they seem to want is all the freedom of an indy studio but the huge budgets of the AAA studios and that's just not going to happen or at least will be rare.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But then again, devs made clear from start they do not care about their players.
If games like EQ and FFXI are still viable for their operators to keep in action there's no reason this shouldn't find its niche market as well.
EQ and FFXI have their heydays long over and it is fairly cheap to keep them going however if they knew they will make same money as they are making today, those games wouldn't be even made in the first place.
It's the better looking MMO in production, but maybe I missed something.
Care to share?
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Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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--------------------------------------------------------------
Brad McQuaid
CCO, Visionary Realms, Inc.
www.pantheonmmo.com
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What was the reason it went up between 2004-2005 which was about when WoW was released at the end of 2004 so highly unlikely it went up after 2004. Did EQ realy raise its numbers after WoW came out in November 2004 ?
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That chart can't be right. It says that SWG only got to about 300k and we all know that every sandbox loving gamer in creation has played it (before NGE)
Some games are just simply skimpy on those things, so in turn they often feel as though grinding worthless mobs for long winded numerical rewards, is all there is to the game.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson