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GROUP Dynamics: OLD School vs NEW School
ste2000
Member EpicPosts: 6,194
Ok lads, since I keep reading comments from people not really understanding what Old School is and what it stands for, I decided to make a thread about the subject, hoping to shed some light on the subject.
There are so many differences between Old School and New School, but in this thread I am gonna focus on Group Dynamics.
To make it easier to understand I will use WoW as my guinea pig.
Why WoW?
Because it is the only game that in its lifetime provided both an Old School and a New School experience in different periods in time.
WoW is the game that virtually killed Old School and it did it within its own game.
The shift from Old School to New School in WoW happened with the expansion WOTLK
I will describe a typical run of an Hellfire Dungeons, which is a BC Dungeon, but that's the point, it will make it easier to understand the differences between the before and the after.
Typical group run in a Dungeon before WOTLK (Old School) Average run time 45-60 minutes:
1) [Buff up]
2) [Pre-Pull] Hunter set traps in front of a couple of mobs in order to root them.
3) [Pulling] Rogue would stealth behind a mob and immobilize it, starting the pull.
3) [After-Pull] Mages would sheep one mob, Warlock would charm another.
4) [Engage] Tank would attack the only mob still not immobilized.
5) [Debuff and DPS] Player would cast Debuff before starting DPSing.
6) [Sustained CC] CC Classes keep refreshing their spell in order to keep mobs immobilized, so the group can kill the mobs 1 by 1.
7) [Rest/Recover] After killing the group of mobs, the Player Group would probably rest before engaging another pack of mobs, as regeneration was slower than today, Mana management skills were important those days.
8) Rinse and repeat.
Note: If CC players weren't good or just slacking the group would wipe.
Typical group run in a dungeon after WOTLK (New School) - Average run time 15-20 minutes:
1) [Buff up]
2) [Engage] Tank runs into a pack of mobs, drop his Area Taunt and Area Damage to keep ALL mobs glued to him.
3) [DPS Overkill] All DPS classes cast their best AOE on the pack of mobs surrounding the Tank.
4) Rinse and repeat.
Note: No Rest is usually required as regeneration is pretty fast, also use of CC is generally redundant except maybe for the hardest Raids.
So lads, when people claim they wanna play an Old School game because they think they are better, they are not saying that because they have a pair of rose tinted glasses on, or because they have nostalgia of that game, like most people suggest (which I find slightly insulting).
There is really a substantial difference between Old School and New School Group Dynamics (but also in other areas).
Of course some prefer one style rather than the other, but please refrain from saying that people that like Old School games are just nostalgic.
Because I can assure you it is not the case.
We just love that kind of play-style that unfortunately can be found only on 13 y/o games like EQ/AC/ DAOC or some WoW Vanilla Servers.
It's not that we love those game, we like their mechanics which is so completely different from modern MMOs, which some of us find more engaging and challenging than modern MMOs.
There are so many differences between Old School and New School, but in this thread I am gonna focus on Group Dynamics.
To make it easier to understand I will use WoW as my guinea pig.
Why WoW?
Because it is the only game that in its lifetime provided both an Old School and a New School experience in different periods in time.
WoW is the game that virtually killed Old School and it did it within its own game.
The shift from Old School to New School in WoW happened with the expansion WOTLK
I will describe a typical run of an Hellfire Dungeons, which is a BC Dungeon, but that's the point, it will make it easier to understand the differences between the before and the after.
Typical group run in a Dungeon before WOTLK (Old School) Average run time 45-60 minutes:
1) [Buff up]
2) [Pre-Pull] Hunter set traps in front of a couple of mobs in order to root them.
3) [Pulling] Rogue would stealth behind a mob and immobilize it, starting the pull.
3) [After-Pull] Mages would sheep one mob, Warlock would charm another.
4) [Engage] Tank would attack the only mob still not immobilized.
5) [Debuff and DPS] Player would cast Debuff before starting DPSing.
6) [Sustained CC] CC Classes keep refreshing their spell in order to keep mobs immobilized, so the group can kill the mobs 1 by 1.
7) [Rest/Recover] After killing the group of mobs, the Player Group would probably rest before engaging another pack of mobs, as regeneration was slower than today, Mana management skills were important those days.
8) Rinse and repeat.
Note: If CC players weren't good or just slacking the group would wipe.
Typical group run in a dungeon after WOTLK (New School) - Average run time 15-20 minutes:
1) [Buff up]
2) [Engage] Tank runs into a pack of mobs, drop his Area Taunt and Area Damage to keep ALL mobs glued to him.
3) [DPS Overkill] All DPS classes cast their best AOE on the pack of mobs surrounding the Tank.
4) Rinse and repeat.
Note: No Rest is usually required as regeneration is pretty fast, also use of CC is generally redundant except maybe for the hardest Raids.
So lads, when people claim they wanna play an Old School game because they think they are better, they are not saying that because they have a pair of rose tinted glasses on, or because they have nostalgia of that game, like most people suggest (which I find slightly insulting).
There is really a substantial difference between Old School and New School Group Dynamics (but also in other areas).
Of course some prefer one style rather than the other, but please refrain from saying that people that like Old School games are just nostalgic.
Because I can assure you it is not the case.
We just love that kind of play-style that unfortunately can be found only on 13 y/o games like EQ/AC/ DAOC or some WoW Vanilla Servers.
It's not that we love those game, we like their mechanics which is so completely different from modern MMOs, which some of us find more engaging and challenging than modern MMOs.
Comments
Grouping now just reminds me of a medieval version of Reservoir Dogs...
One shotting a mob or burning down an entire pack of mobs in 10 seconds, how is that beneficial to someone gaming experience?
I play games because I want to be challenged not because I want to win.
Modern games appeal to the self entitled pampered generation that want to win at any cost.
Kids nowadays get prizes in sport even when they lose, an modern MMOs unfortunately reflect that.
It happens that I don' agree with this philosophy.
Just because you are a fan of instant gratification with little effort, you should not diss people who like a more challenging game, and yes they are more challenging because it requires more player interaction and coordination, and the use of some tactics to defeat the encounter.
It is not an "pre-historic" playstyle, it is an alternative one, a more challenging one.
It's like comparing Dark Souls vs Dragon Age.
Is Dark Soul pre-historic because it is harder to master?
When I have sex I like to last more than 10 minutes, if you are a fan of premature ejaculation, that's fine, if that's what rocks your boat.
But rest assured it's not the others who are doing it wrong......
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EQ2 is a standalone game.
Comparing 2 different games is not as efficient as comparing the same game, before/after version.
And as I played them both for many years (4 EQ2, 5 WoW) I am positive when I say Vanilla WoW was as old school as EQ2 was.
In order to make people understand the difference between the "before" and the "after" it is always better using the same product as example because the differences are more obvious.
And stop patronizing people by deciding what is modern or ancient, what is cool and what is not, what is 20th century and what is 21st century (you are doing it in other threads too).
You are doing a disservice to yourself.
You are not the only one with a vast collection of games on his shelf.
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You can't never go wrong with a good old smartass comment, can you?
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This has to do with simplifying the combat mechanics to make them easier, and require no coordination/communication.
Really, very little of old school vs new school has to do with tech limitations. It has to do with the roots of the genre. "Old School" tends to be much more DnD like, it was all about character progression, with class strengths and weaknesses and teamwork mattering, combat being more turn based. "New School" has stripped away the roots. Character progression has become an inconvenience rather than the entire point. RPG combat has been replaced by more actiony combat. Teamwork has been reduced to pure trinity, and in some places even that is stripped away.
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If anything, the tech limitations helped the genre. EQ was able to pump out ridiculous amounts of new zones because they took FAR less work to create.
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I hardly made any personal remarks, it looks like you are more prone than me at labeling people and games according to your own standards.
It is a tech limitation but has nothing to do with the Topic, which it looks like it went way over your head.
You really didn't get the meaning of the Topic, the fact that someone consider "Group Finder" as one of the difference between Old and New School is the very reason I made this thread.
I am wondering if you actually read my OP, the difference I mentioned there are intended and not limited by technology.
The Old school concept has nothing to do with technology, in fact Old school game are penalized by the fact they are very old and could not take advantage of modern standards.
New Old school game will have some kind of "Group Finder" and other modern features that 13 years ago weren't available.
That's what I mean when I said most of us want an Old School game with modern technology and accessibility, I don't say that because it sounds good.
I don't want a carbon copy of EQ....otherwise I'll play EQ, last I checked it is still running.
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I said that this topic was only about Group Dynamics, though there are many other differences, which I wasn't going to cover in this thread.
And thanks for rating my thread as non interesting (without even reading it), now that you gave your irrefutable opinion I can sleep better.
Maybe you should let other decide rather than you deciding for them?
You realize you come across as pompous character and full of yourself, but then you blame others for getting upset.
You are not discussing, you are making statements as if they are facts (you don't think this is aggressive and disrespectful?).
I totally disagree with you but I never claim that's the way it is, and based on the things you say I think you don't know much about gaming.
You just repeat what you read and repeat it like a parrot, you talk for cliches.
Not sure what's interesting about that.
Back then you would advertise in general chat and do /who searches to find people, now a lot of people will whine and say thats stupid and things have ''imrpoved'' since then but by having to start a group that way you were interacting with people on your server, you were taking note of players names. The way you behaved in groups mattered because people would remeber you and take note of what guild you were representing. Having to drink meant i was paying attention to the enviroment, noticing things i never noticed before, starting small conversations with people while we regen our mana, it also meant i was paying attention to my parties mana pool while playing (not just focused on my fucking dps meter)
These days if you asked me after a dungeon who i was grouped with i wouldnt even be able to tell you their names and would only vaugley remeber what classes they were. There's no server identity anymore and no socail comunity. I could go on and on about this and similar mechanics but i wont because you obviously dont agree with me, which is fine but too many people on this forum put people like me down for wanting something different than whats currently offered.
Im not living in the past. If i was then i would be playing SWG which is still available, along with EQ and a whole bunch of others.
Another point i want to make.. i support vanila WoW servers yet i dont play them because i couldnt stand the thought of playing WoW anymore without transmog or the freedom to swap specs when i felt like it.
I dont live in the past, but that doesnt mean im happy with how games are being made in the 21st century.
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Someone that got my Topic right.
Particularly the last part when you talk about Transmog in WoW, something that could easily be implemented in a modern Old School game together with Group Finder, without ruining the game identity.
That's exactly what I mean when people don't understand what the Old School concept is about.
They regurgitate the same old tired cliche', which are quite outdated and irritating.
That explain that superiority complex of yours (and if you think I am exaggerating, just re-read your posts).
That also explain why modern MMO industry is in such a state, sorry but I have zero confidence in current developers, or industry gurus.
For 10 years we've been told that we needed more WoW clones, so forgive me if I don't listen much to industry "experts".
Yes you are allowed to your opinion, I am very interested in your opinion.
But I am not interested in your "facts".
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And games of that era did a lot of things differently. The demographic didnt change, it splintered and those of us who didnt ask for the changes were cast out with little or no options in the gaming market.
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