Old-school games were not hard, just time consuming. EQ, WoW, Ragnarok,
I've played them all and I feel that I have much more challenge and fun
in current MMOs (I.E.: Endgame raids [FFXIV and WoW]).
If it was
more challenging for you, it was probably because of the general lack of
knowledge/skill of the playerbase from almost two decades ago.
Although I do miss interesting support classes. After a quick glance on a Ragnarok wiki page for certain classes like Sage/Scholar/Gypsy/Bard/Soul Linker and others you can see lots of interesting support skills that I wish we could have in current MMOs. Other than that, modern MMOs are waaay better.
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
? Have you actually played ESO?
Yes.
Don't believe you have. CC is very much a part of ESO. So is situational skills and spells.
Comparing EQ CC and ESO CC, ESO is blah.
EQ CC is also exactly what some of us don't want to go back to. I mean, it's not like you're talking to people who never played those slower paced old school games. Some of you want to do those again. Some of us don't. It's that simple.
ESO has found a way to incorporate a lot more than just the typical modern WOW tank and spank while still doing it in a fast paced manner. Everything in ESO... the roots, the snares, the interrupts, the stuns, the mezzes,,, they are all deliberately of shorter duration to keep the pace of the fight faster. But they are all there.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
? Have you actually played ESO?
I don't think anyone has told him about the importance of blocks, interrupts, escapes and dodges
It's actually funny and a dead giveaway of a new player when you see people ignoring the importance of those skills and just wanting to go toe to toe with everything.
Redundant skills. If you can block what do you need dodge and escape for? You can interrupt by blocking.
I started playing WoW late during Vanilla, quit at the start of WoD. Played tons of MMOs in between and since. I would say that years ago (and this holds true for other games besides WoW now, also) classes were simply more unique, and imho there was more utility to be had across all of them, really. Things like stuns and CC, and removal of them, were precious.
Nowadays, every class has essentially one good role, one or two "meta" builds that require the least amount of thought, and you perform that role exactly like any other class; you just look differently whilst doing so. Just look at how much WoW has been dumbed down in terms of the number of available skills and the removal of much of the aforementioned utility (imho, ofc). I realize the argument about "bloated" skill bars has some merit, but just because some folks don't want to use all of their tools, refuse to use them, or don't have the skill to do so, doesn't mean those tools shouldn't be available to highly skilled players. Yet much of that has been taken away in favor of the shortened, easier play style the OP described, and again, WoW is far from the only case of that.
Unfortunately, we will most likely not see a return to mechanics that required teamwork and careful play. They are too "difficult" and everybody doesn't "win", so naturally they are unwelcome in modern society. I wonder how many "bullying" complaints/lawsuits have been filed during the past several years by people who got beaten by others in PvP...
"We are all as God made us, and many of us much worse." - Don Quixote
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
? Have you actually played ESO?
Yes.
Don't believe you have. CC is very much a part of ESO. So is situational skills and spells.
Comparing EQ CC and ESO CC, ESO is blah.
EQ CC is also exactly what some of us don't want to go back to. I mean, it's not like you're talking to people who never played those slower paced old school games. Some of you want to do those again. Some of us don't. It's that simple.
ESO has found a way to incorporate a lot more than just the typical modern WOW tank and spank while still doing it in a fast paced manner. Everything in ESO... the roots, the snares, the interrupts, the stuns, the mezzes,,, they are all deliberately of shorter duration to keep the pace of the fight faster. But they are all there.
You don't remember Mez braking on multiple adds? TRAIN!!!!!!! To ZONE!!!!! :-) Forgot to add - Why is everything have to bee about speed anymore??
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
? Have you actually played ESO?
I don't think anyone has told him about the importance of blocks, interrupts, escapes and dodges
It's actually funny and a dead giveaway of a new player when you see people ignoring the importance of those skills and just wanting to go toe to toe with everything.
Redundant skills. If you can block what do you need dodge and escape for? You can interrupt by blocking.
No my friend. Some skills can not be blocked but can be dodged and vice versa. A few deaths doing veteran dungeons and people usually figure out which are which pretty fast.
And no, block and interrupt are 2 different things. There is boss fight in Cradle of Shadows that you won't survive unless you know the difference.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Forgot to add - Why is everything have to bee about speed anymore??
It doesn't HAVE to be about speed and as these forums show on a daily basis, some like the faster pace and some don't.
Personally I like the increased realism that speed brings to MMO fights. I think of old MMO slow fights as a simulation of strategy games - which I also play and enjoy - and new MMO fights as a simulation of real life fighting... except with magic
You don't put people to sleep for a minute in a real fight, but you DO stagger them for a second or two.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
... So lads, when people claim they wanna play an Old School game because they think they are better, they are not saying that because they have a pair of rose tinted glasses on, or because they have nostalgia of that game, like most people suggest (which I find slightly insulting).
On the flip side, when people say they prefer "new" school or simply don't like old school mechanics there always seem to be someone that assumes that the person is either:
1. a younger person new to genre
or
2. someone who prefers easy mode
Which is what I find insulting. Not saying you are saying that, just I what I noticed in general about these types of conversations on these boards.
There are plenty of us who have been around playing in the genre just as long if not longer than those who prefer old school mechanics.
Old school grouping required personality when asking for an invite or even just to leave a lasting impression on a guild that needed one more for a run. I've made many friends just grouping up with genuine good folks.
Grouping now just reminds me of a medieval version of Reservoir Dogs...
This was always nice, but many of us have lives now and can maybe squeeze in a an hour or so.
LFG tools as convenient and accommodating. Old school players enjoying New school tools.
Keep in mind though, old school mmo's are very grindy. I myself am a fan of Vanilla/TBC, but we have to be honest here. As a 20 almost 21 y/o university student I have difficulty in finding enough time to really get into that grind to win ideology. I think it is fair to try and understand the way certain things changed in the course of those past 10 years. Games change in a certain way because we, the players, change in a certain way. The older you get, the harder it is to really put time and effort into all that grinding.
Don't get me wrong though, like I said I personally like Vanilla and I will surely play it when Nostalrius launches. However the only reason I will is because I really like gaming to the degree that I can give up certain things for it. The people who play Vanilla WoW on private servers are probably similar to me. Grinding endlessly for mana potions, grinding endlessly for hitting the level cap, grinding endlessly to get geared. Honestly Vanilla WoW is the most broken expansion. Rogues and Mages dominate the DPS charts while all other classes have to use even their toes to get close to half of their DPS while spamming mana pots. Like I said, the game is not entirely fair in terms of grindiness and balance.
So the sum it up, the people who want to play Old school MMORPG's are people who are really into the nature of the MMORPG genre. While the new players are more into the actual game. PvP players play arenas and bg's and do some random WPvP. PvE players do raids and dungeons. While doing all this they are skipping the big grind that Vanilla had.
The only thing that actually makes me miss Vanilla is that the WPvP was WAY more meaningful than it is today, due to the fact that it delves more into that grindy nature of the actual MMORPG genre. Which is imo the biggest loss for WoW players of today.
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
? Have you actually played ESO?
I don't think anyone has told him about the importance of blocks, interrupts, escapes and dodges
It's actually funny and a dead giveaway of a new player when you see people ignoring the importance of those skills and just wanting to go toe to toe with everything.
Redundant skills. If you can block what do you need dodge and escape for? You can interrupt by blocking.
OMG dude just stop talking. You never played and have no clue yet somehow it qualifies you to criticize it. Just stop it already.
Old school just doesn't work for me any more. I watched the Pantheon stream for a while yesterday enough to know that's not for me. All things considered I prefer the quicker pace of modern MMORPGs.
That's not to say that some games haven't gone overboard with constant action and group content turns into the inevitable no chatting "speed runs." But even then, if you're on voice, the chatting and socializing is still very much there... which I prefer since I was never very good at using my KB for both playing and chatting.
I've done old and I'm always looking for new.
Another example of why ESO is such a great addition to the MMO genre and landscape. It has elements of older school MMOs with all the modern touches needed to make it appealing to the modern gamer.
You sure sugarcoat everything. Even if it's a steaming pile of crap. It's hard to take people like you seriously.
Why is ESO not a good example of old and new? Grouping requires socializing. The guild system is of a different set up that encourages socializing. Even not having an auction house has been a positive thing as it pertains to getting people to actually speak to each other. They have fast travel and more action type combat yet grouping is essential for many things. The crafting is deep and varied plus the game is more about the journey than hitting max level. I think the game fits very comfortably between both old and new.
ESO is too simple. There is no Mez, no Root, no Snare, no Lull, no Spell Fizzle, no Spell Interruption, no Situational Skills and Spells, etc, etc... Games today are so mind numbing simple.
? Have you actually played ESO?
I don't think anyone has told him about the importance of blocks, interrupts, escapes and dodges
It's actually funny and a dead giveaway of a new player when you see people ignoring the importance of those skills and just wanting to go toe to toe with everything.
Redundant skills. If you can block what do you need dodge and escape for? You can interrupt by blocking.
No my friend. Some skills can not be blocked but can be dodged and vice versa. A few deaths doing veteran dungeons and people usually figure out which are which pretty fast.
And no, block and interrupt are 2 different things. There is boss fight in Cradle of Shadows that you won't survive unless you know the difference.
The kid hasn't played ESO. It should be painfully obvious at this point.
No mez, root, stun, or spell interrupt? I didn't realize as a Dragonknight my Dark Talons, Lava Whip, and Petrify actually don't do anything. It's also shocking to discover my 1h/s Shield Charge and Power Bash are simply animations.
Oh, and those poor mages once they realize Crushing Shock and Destructive Reach are just for show.
Not to mention the Champion enhancements. ROTFLMAO
He has to be trolling to get a rise out of people. Maybe his parents left him alone for the day or something.
On the flip side, when people say they prefer "new" school or simply don't like old school mechanics there always seem to be someone that assumes that the person is either: 1. a younger person new to genre or 2. someone who prefers easy mode Which is what I find insulting. Not saying you are saying that, just I what I noticed in general about these types of conversations on these boards. There are plenty of us who have been around playing in the genre just as long if not longer than those who prefer old school mechanics.
I am aware of that. It's a double edged sword of course.
I actually think most of the people who don't like Old School played those games. And I also know why they don't like them, which is exactly why I like them. Different strokes for different folks.
Most people were forced to play Old School because at that time there was nothing else to play. So I an not surprised to see so much resentment (maybe justified) on this forums. But there are other people like me that loved that kind of style, and wants new games being made.
I like both styles for different reasons , and I started with UO, have played every MMO since like many here, The biggest difference for me and why i enjoy the Old School games more , is i feel more immersed in my Character/Class , for whatever reasons , maybe more decisions in there growth and journey , and the New School , altho i do play and enjoy parts of them , at times feels like thrown into a mosh pit...
I like both styles for different reasons , and I started with UO, have played every MMO since like many here, The biggest difference for me and why i enjoy the Old School games more , is i feel more immersed in my Character/Class , for whatever reasons , maybe more decisions in there growth and journey , and the New School , altho i do play and enjoy parts of them , at times feels like thrown into a mosh pit...
I think it's relative.
I feel more immersed in my ESO character than I ever did in my UO character. That's probably because UO in the early days had so many technical issues it pulled you back to reality all the time. Sometimes it felt like I was grinding downtime.
EQ1 had much better group dynamics than wow ever did....WoW has always been a zergfest and just burn down the boss as fast as possible in 99% of the dungeons...There was little or no strategy needed....EQ1 you had to work much better as a team to survive.
Forgot to add - Why is everything have to bee about speed anymore??
It doesn't HAVE to be about speed and as these forums show on a daily basis, some like the faster pace and some don't.
Personally I like the increased realism that speed brings to MMO fights. I think of old MMO slow fights as a simulation of strategy games - which I also play and enjoy - and new MMO fights as a simulation of real life fighting... except with magic
You don't put people to sleep for a minute in a real fight, but you DO stagger them for a second or two.
Realism. This is why we should have permadeath. That would be fun.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
To me, the old school style sounds overly regimented and boring. Like it's artificially elongating a simple encounter. I mean, the new school approach is simply more fun and effective. Unless you're into squad based tactics, but why aren't you in military or in police dept then?
I am for roles, but tank role is simply more tactile when you're nigh invulnerable. Healer has to put out his best effort too. DPS players feel awesome because of "Horrid Wilting -> DEAD" as opposed to going "Magic Missile -> Dead" "Magic Missile -> Dead". I'd agree that the supports of various kinds are lacking in today's mmorpgs, but the answer is not to regress back to the prehistoric game design. A game design that evolved for a reason.
Really, modern playstyle benefits everyone this way or another, with a notable exception of people stuck in the past.
The fun thing with old school combat is that you work together or die. Now it seems that you will clear anything besides raids without much tactics and even calling that group dynamics is generous.
Group dynamics does certainly not have to be like Everquest but the game need to reward superior tactics and people working together, or I don't see any point of grouping at all.
I think we need new group dynamics different from both old school and new school.
I fear that the reason the mechanics "evolved" (I prefer "simplified") is that people play worse now, with nerfed difficulty there is not much need for advanced group mechanics.
I think besides mechanics more rewarding for groups we need a rather large increase in difficulty for group content. Work together as a team or die basically. If you don't like that then the solo content is for you.
Also, dungeons were more important in the older games because the group content dropped superior gear that actually lasted a while and you gained XP far faster that way. Doing dungeons are far riskier then soloquests and should be rewarded accordingly. Today many players don't do dungeons until max level and therefor don't learn the group dynamics as well as they did in the old days. Why bother when the XP is usually worse then questing and any gear you find will be replaced after 2 hours anyways?
Some things are better with MMOs today but not everything. And you kinda have to have played the old MMOs to really be able to judge that (and of course the new games as well), it is not something you can judge by reading comments about it. And Wow never been "old school".
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
No matter what, we will never EVER have another popular game that takes years to reach max. level, because people will go to reddit / X forum day 1, pick their calculators and start theorycrafting the best ways to level up, it will be up in a popular google doc in less than a week.
Veterans have the know-how of grinding and "group dynamics" or w/e won't stop it. Unless you make the game so hard that only the top 1% of players will be able to grind properly OR the game have an almost infinite progression which would be unfair to new players and probably keep them away.
It seems so "magical" in old-school games because players were newbies, most didn't know what they were doing, that's why it took so much time.
I'm fine with a big exp curve, I can play either way, but don't pretend you will relive your MMO memories, you won't, if you don't like MMOs nowadays, you will probably never like it again.
I started playing WoW late during Vanilla, quit at the start of WoD. Played tons of MMOs in between and since. I would say that years ago (and this holds true for other games besides WoW now, also) classes were simply more unique, and imho there was more utility to be had across all of them, really. Things like stuns and CC, and removal of them, were precious.
Nowadays, every class has essentially one good role, one or two "meta" builds that require the least amount of thought, and you perform that role exactly like any other class; you just look differently whilst doing so. Just look at how much WoW has been dumbed down in terms of the number of available skills and the removal of much of the aforementioned utility (imho, ofc). I realize the argument about "bloated" skill bars has some merit, but just because some folks don't want to use all of their tools, refuse to use them, or don't have the skill to do so, doesn't mean those tools shouldn't be available to highly skilled players. Yet much of that has been taken away in favor of the shortened, easier play style the OP described, and again, WoW is far from the only case of that.
Unfortunately, we will most likely not see a return to mechanics that required teamwork and careful play. They are too "difficult" and everybody doesn't "win", so naturally they are unwelcome in modern society. I wonder how many "bullying" complaints/lawsuits have been filed during the past several years by people who got beaten by others in PvP...
ESO's dungeons require teamwork and coordination. It is a great marriage between old school and new school group design. Bless Online is another fine example of a new MMO taking queues from the older games by making the Dungeons varied, interesting and hard. They require every single person to know what they need to do or you will wipe. Castle Sieges are flat out amazing in the game. One even underwater. Gloria Victis is coming along fine and offers a fine example of a newly designed game catering to the siege warfare crowd. Attacking a castle reminds me of those wonderful DAoC days. Black Death is another fine example of a virtual world game not tied to level tread milling. I think there are games out there that require the type of gameplay that some people say they want people just have to look beyond the big names.
ESO dungeons are nothing more than a zerg fest, and they are worse than GW2's dungeons in my opinion. ESO is also just another shallow single player MMO with the usual instanced dungeons and pvp to go with it. It actually is a pretty boring game. and is a real tarnish on the entire Elder Scrolls series.
Agreed that WOW was never Old School as many claim it to have been. Old school to me is Asheron's Call and Lineage
Some people thought it was old school because it was alot of players first MMO and they didnt know any better....THose of us that came from EQ1, AC, and some of the other older MMOs found WoW quite easy.
I started playing WoW late during Vanilla, quit at the start of WoD. Played tons of MMOs in between and since. I would say that years ago (and this holds true for other games besides WoW now, also) classes were simply more unique, and imho there was more utility to be had across all of them, really. Things like stuns and CC, and removal of them, were precious.
Nowadays, every class has essentially one good role, one or two "meta" builds that require the least amount of thought, and you perform that role exactly like any other class; you just look differently whilst doing so. Just look at how much WoW has been dumbed down in terms of the number of available skills and the removal of much of the aforementioned utility (imho, ofc). I realize the argument about "bloated" skill bars has some merit, but just because some folks don't want to use all of their tools, refuse to use them, or don't have the skill to do so, doesn't mean those tools shouldn't be available to highly skilled players. Yet much of that has been taken away in favor of the shortened, easier play style the OP described, and again, WoW is far from the only case of that.
Unfortunately, we will most likely not see a return to mechanics that required teamwork and careful play. They are too "difficult" and everybody doesn't "win", so naturally they are unwelcome in modern society. I wonder how many "bullying" complaints/lawsuits have been filed during the past several years by people who got beaten by others in PvP...
ESO's dungeons require teamwork and coordination. It is a great marriage between old school and new school group design. Bless Online is another fine example of a new MMO taking queues from the older games by making the Dungeons varied, interesting and hard. They require every single person to know what they need to do or you will wipe. Castle Sieges are flat out amazing in the game. One even underwater. Gloria Victis is coming along fine and offers a fine example of a newly designed game catering to the siege warfare crowd. Attacking a castle reminds me of those wonderful DAoC days. Black Death is another fine example of a virtual world game not tied to level tread milling. I think there are games out there that require the type of gameplay that some people say they want people just have to look beyond the big names.
ESO dungeons are nothing more than a zerg fest, and they are worse than GW2's dungeons in my opinion. ESO is also just another shallow single player MMO with the usual instanced dungeons and pvp to go with it. It actually is a pretty boring game. and is a real tarnish on the entire Elder Scrolls series.
Are you saying that because they really are "zerg fests" or because they don't use arcaic holy trinity system? Or perhaps it seems like zerg fest because you are unfamiliar with the dynamics in ESO or GW2?
I've certainly encountered many players who can't seem to grasp combat without a dedicated tank or a dedicated healer. They declare combat without them as chaos. They get frustrated and give up far too soon.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
If it was more challenging for you, it was probably because of the general lack of knowledge/skill of the playerbase from almost two decades ago.
Although I do miss interesting support classes. After a quick glance on a Ragnarok wiki page for certain classes like Sage/Scholar/Gypsy/Bard/Soul Linker and others you can see lots of interesting support skills that I wish we could have in current MMOs. Other than that, modern MMOs are waaay better.
ESO has found a way to incorporate a lot more than just the typical modern WOW tank and spank while still doing it in a fast paced manner. Everything in ESO... the roots, the snares, the interrupts, the stuns, the mezzes,,, they are all deliberately of shorter duration to keep the pace of the fight faster. But they are all there.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Nowadays, every class has essentially one good role, one or two "meta" builds that require the least amount of thought, and you perform that role exactly like any other class; you just look differently whilst doing so. Just look at how much WoW has been dumbed down in terms of the number of available skills and the removal of much of the aforementioned utility (imho, ofc). I realize the argument about "bloated" skill bars has some merit, but just because some folks don't want to use all of their tools, refuse to use them, or don't have the skill to do so, doesn't mean those tools shouldn't be available to highly skilled players. Yet much of that has been taken away in favor of the shortened, easier play style the OP described, and again, WoW is far from the only case of that.
Unfortunately, we will most likely not see a return to mechanics that required teamwork and careful play. They are too "difficult" and everybody doesn't "win", so naturally they are unwelcome in modern society. I wonder how many "bullying" complaints/lawsuits have been filed during the past several years by people who got beaten by others in PvP...
Forgot to add - Why is everything have to bee about speed anymore??
And no, block and interrupt are 2 different things. There is boss fight in Cradle of Shadows that you won't survive unless you know the difference.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Personally I like the increased realism that speed brings to MMO fights. I think of old MMO slow fights as a simulation of strategy games - which I also play and enjoy - and new MMO fights as a simulation of real life fighting... except with magic
You don't put people to sleep for a minute in a real fight, but you DO stagger them for a second or two.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
1. a younger person new to genre
or
2. someone who prefers easy mode
Which is what I find insulting. Not saying you are saying that, just I what I noticed in general about these types of conversations on these boards.
There are plenty of us who have been around playing in the genre just as long if not longer than those who prefer old school mechanics.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
LFG tools as convenient and accommodating. Old school players enjoying New school tools.
Don't get me wrong though, like I said I personally like Vanilla and I will surely play it when Nostalrius launches. However the only reason I will is because I really like gaming to the degree that I can give up certain things for it. The people who play Vanilla WoW on private servers are probably similar to me. Grinding endlessly for mana potions, grinding endlessly for hitting the level cap, grinding endlessly to get geared. Honestly Vanilla WoW is the most broken expansion. Rogues and Mages dominate the DPS charts while all other classes have to use even their toes to get close to half of their DPS while spamming mana pots. Like I said, the game is not entirely fair in terms of grindiness and balance.
So the sum it up, the people who want to play Old school MMORPG's are people who are really into the nature of the MMORPG genre. While the new players are more into the actual game. PvP players play arenas and bg's and do some random WPvP. PvE players do raids and dungeons. While doing all this they are skipping the big grind that Vanilla had.
The only thing that actually makes me miss Vanilla is that the WPvP was WAY more meaningful than it is today, due to the fact that it delves more into that grindy nature of the actual MMORPG genre. Which is imo the biggest loss for WoW players of today.
No mez, root, stun, or spell interrupt? I didn't realize as a Dragonknight my Dark Talons, Lava Whip, and Petrify actually don't do anything. It's also shocking to discover my 1h/s Shield Charge and Power Bash are simply animations.
Oh, and those poor mages once they realize Crushing Shock and Destructive Reach are just for show.
Not to mention the Champion enhancements. ROTFLMAO
He has to be trolling to get a rise out of people. Maybe his parents left him alone for the day or something.
~~ postlarval ~~
It's a double edged sword of course.
I actually think most of the people who don't like Old School played those games.
And I also know why they don't like them, which is exactly why I like them.
Different strokes for different folks.
Most people were forced to play Old School because at that time there was nothing else to play.
So I an not surprised to see so much resentment (maybe justified) on this forums.
But there are other people like me that loved that kind of style, and wants new games being made.
I feel more immersed in my ESO character than I ever did in my UO character. That's probably because UO in the early days had so many technical issues it pulled you back to reality all the time. Sometimes it felt like I was grinding downtime.
~~ postlarval ~~
Realism. This is why we should have permadeath. That would be fun.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Group dynamics does certainly not have to be like Everquest but the game need to reward superior tactics and people working together, or I don't see any point of grouping at all.
I think we need new group dynamics different from both old school and new school.
I fear that the reason the mechanics "evolved" (I prefer "simplified") is that people play worse now, with nerfed difficulty there is not much need for advanced group mechanics.
I think besides mechanics more rewarding for groups we need a rather large increase in difficulty for group content. Work together as a team or die basically. If you don't like that then the solo content is for you.
Also, dungeons were more important in the older games because the group content dropped superior gear that actually lasted a while and you gained XP far faster that way. Doing dungeons are far riskier then soloquests and should be rewarded accordingly. Today many players don't do dungeons until max level and therefor don't learn the group dynamics as well as they did in the old days. Why bother when the XP is usually worse then questing and any gear you find will be replaced after 2 hours anyways?
Some things are better with MMOs today but not everything. And you kinda have to have played the old MMOs to really be able to judge that (and of course the new games as well), it is not something you can judge by reading comments about it. And Wow never been "old school".
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leveling was so quick at wow's release. People thought the game wouldn't last because it was so fast.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Veterans have the know-how of grinding and "group dynamics" or w/e won't stop it. Unless you make the game so hard that only the top 1% of players will be able to grind properly OR the game have an almost infinite progression which would be unfair to new players and probably keep them away.
It seems so "magical" in old-school games because players were newbies, most didn't know what they were doing, that's why it took so much time.
I'm fine with a big exp curve, I can play either way, but don't pretend you will relive your MMO memories, you won't, if you don't like MMOs nowadays, you will probably never like it again.
I've certainly encountered many players who can't seem to grasp combat without a dedicated tank or a dedicated healer. They declare combat without them as chaos. They get frustrated and give up far too soon.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky