For me the Pre-WoW and WoW eras both are my favorite because I had more time to play. I also had a tight group of friends that I made during SWG and all 5 of us had the same PVP mind set. We played/PVP'ed in SWG then I introduced them to Planetside which was already a year or two old by then. Then we later on played WoW, EQ2, CoH, and Guild Wars together. Unfortunately I had one of those girlfriends at the time around 2005 that made me choose her over playing video games and I ended up losing contact with those guys. I also ended up eventually ending the relationship with that girlfriend. Thanks a lot, Keisha...
Luckily my wife now doesn't mind my game hobby and has actually played a few MMOs with me. It's not the same though because she is not a PVPer.
You should just title this thread "The Rose-Colored Glasses Thread of Wistfulness"
IMO, it wasn't that great. I started playing MMOs in 1997. If I based my fun off those games of yesteryear, I would have left this genre long ago. Games are much better now. Finally they are being made for adults with lives instead of kids and social misfits with too much wasted time on their hands.
I don't think I could be more opposite that opinion. Mmorpgs are very much more made for kids (teens) these days, just look at simplified mechanics, flashy effects and focus on character models, the lack of soul and complete focus on retention mechanics (money grab) that most adults will see right through.
And for the rose tinted standard comment, though I find it hard to stumac something like p1999, I still had an awesome time in two different eq progression servers and with all the choices of mmorpgs (which I btw also played a bunch of), I still haven't found anything that can compete with eq. I also played a wow emu, which was not as great as I remembered it. In fact only a few games stand out, so it is not a "everything was better" thing, just those few exceptionally great ones like eq. Maybe you got those rose tinted glasses on, I look objectively and through no filters because I have actually returned and re-played those games... Of course nothing can be completely objective when taste and preferences applies.
This video came out today and it does have interesting things that you dont see anymore in games. Obscure things randomly placed in area's that may seem random but there actually there for reason but whether or not people are able to find the little secrets or big secret is another story. These little things you see in this video may not seem like a whole lot but they do make a huge different when playing the game, from slow boats that took awhile to a random non KOS ghost that appears at a random beach every night (making you wonder why is she there, some people even try to find the exact reason) They may not suceed but i have a feeling the answer is there somewhere as there often is the case when it came to EQ just may take awhile to find or the secrets may never be revealed. Take this offical video for example for the 10 year anniversary : - 1:54 sec - There are more than 3,000 items never been discovered by players. think about it for a game being that old there are still 3,000 items that have never been found some of which are most likly rewards and thing from these hidden quests and secret spots around the world of norrath that people just couldnt put the secret together Who knows what gear or item they were alot of those were probaly quests rewards i reckon that people couldnt figure out There were many many secrets of Norrath and it made the world feel great for those who took there time and didnt scip past things dotn see that anymore in games
everyone will always vote nostalgia so the poll ends up meaningless. nothing will ever beat your first mmo.
That is true but you can get pretty close if you play something different enough from what you played before. Certainly wont just better graphics help (VR could possibly but I have my doubts).
Compare it with a CIV player that play Minecraft the first time, both are sandbox games but very different from eachother. Eve Online for example is different enough so it can work if it is your style.
A good MMO adaption of a game like Shadowrun for instance could do it, it is so different from D&D (which almost all MMOs are based on) that it would feel completelly different while still be a MMORPG (unless the devs wuss out and ude the Wow mechanics of course). I had high hopes of CCPs World of darkness online until they decided to focus on Dust instead (big mistake).
Well I can't pinpoint a specific era were I had to most fun or crown the best game. I enjoyed a lot of time in EQ 1999-2001 and my EVE time 2003-2007 with ww2online at the same time, did a 6 months tour in EQ2 when it relased and I had a lot of fun in EVE later on and after 2010 had good times with ESO, GW2 and SWTOR.
But If I'm forced to pick an era would be 2010-to present due to I still play EVE from time to time, and GW2, going back to ESO and SWTOR and honourable mention would be Black Desert.
FF14, GW2, Rift, ESO, BDO, SWTOR, Archeage... You can't beat this list.
Seriously? That list is garbage...WoW clones galore
Actually the only thing these mmorpg's have in common with wow is the fact that you have a skillbar and you press buttons on a keyboard. It is WOW who has become more like other mmorpg's lately not the other way around.
And there's quite a few people who say WOW today is better then ever. I didn't put it on the list because i haven't tried it in 4 years.
FF14, GW2, Rift, ESO, BDO, SWTOR, Archeage... You can't beat this list.
Seriously? That list is garbage...WoW clones galore
Actually the only thing these mmorpg's have in common with wow is the fact that you have a skillbar and you press buttons on a keyboard. It is WOW who has become more like other mmorpg's lately not the other way around.
And there's quite a few people who say WOW today is better then ever. I didn't put it on the list because i haven't tried it in 4 years.
That isn't exactly true either even if that don't make them Wow clones. All use XP, levels and gear for progression (not something all older MMOs did, some let you gain skills by using them for instance like UO, some lack levels like Eve (and again UO), some have almost or no gear progression like Guildwars (1).
All of them besides GW2 are questdriven, something many older had few or none. Skills are generally handled with cooldown (even if there are the exception like GW2s thiefs attack skills).
XP are gained from killing trash mobs, bosses, doing quests, completing content and gaining achievements unlike for instance DDO who don't reward you anything far trash mobs.
But there are of course also differences from the basic EQ/Wow concept in each games, in Rifts and TORs case those differences are far less then the other though (not that I played either the last few years).
And yes, there are people who say that this Wow expansion is the best ever but the same thing were said about the last 2 as well, after a while less and less people said it about the earlier 2 and it noticed fewer people talking about it now then a couple of months ago.
I like numbers and to my knowledge have Wow actually kept on gaining more players a few months after release instead of losing and that was the first 2 expansions beside vanilla. Logically, if this was the best Wow expansion Blizz would trumpet out the message that Wow again is reaching sub numbers close to after Catas release everywhere on the net. That leaves vanilla, TBC and Wotlk as contenders for the best Wow version.
Numbers sadly wont help us pick the best among those 3 since the game gained players on a viral level during that entire era but trust me, those were the most popular times even if best more have to do with personal opinion then popularity. Out of that viewpoint can any expansion be your personal "best" but from a general point it is the earlier ones.
Early days of Asheron's Call playing on Darktide was the most fun I've ever had in gaming. Sadly, I'm sure it'll never be replicated.
I don't think it should be "replicated", AC and many of the other early games greatest thing was innovation, replicating things is the reason we are at a place where no new western AAA MMO is in development unless you count SC as one (and I count it as indie myself).
- Everquest - 1999 - Everquest 2 (Vanilla) - 2004 - WoW (Vanilla) - 2004 - Star Wars Galaxies - 2004 - Dark Age of Camelot - 2004 - EVE Online - 2003 - Darkfall - 2009 - Archeage (minus Cash Shop) - 2014 - Black Desert - 2016 - Elders Scrolls Online - 2014
5 games Pre-WoW (I include Vanilla WoW as I consider it an Old School), and 3 Post-WoW.
The so called WoW Era (2004-2012) is a massive hole in my gaming history, almost irrelevant. Only game I liked during that era is Darkfall which coincidentally is not a WoW clone.
everyone will always vote nostalgia so the poll ends up meaningless. nothing will ever beat your first mmo.
Naw, i started playing LOK which was pre- UO. And i voted WOW era, which i still say is wrong way to look at this:) Sub era vs all the FTP games era would be better:)
But to your point, not everybody thinks their first was the best.
Right now, for a very simple reason: the game I play has been continuously worked on and improved by the same company since... 1998? It has more features and content now than at any time in the past, and it is a lot of fun to play.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
FF14, GW2, Rift, ESO, BDO, SWTOR, Archeage... You can't beat this list.
Seriously? That list is garbage...WoW clones galore
Actually the only thing these mmorpg's have in common with wow is the fact that you have a skillbar and you press buttons on a keyboard. It is WOW who has become more like other mmorpg's lately not the other way around.
And there's quite a few people who say WOW today is better then ever. I didn't put it on the list because i haven't tried it in 4 years.
That isn't exactly true either even if that don't make them Wow clones. All use XP, levels and gear for progression (not something all older MMOs did, some let you gain skills by using them for instance like UO, some lack levels like Eve (and again UO), some have almost or no gear progression like Guildwars (1).
All of them besides GW2 are questdriven, something many older had few or none. Skills are generally handled with cooldown (even if there are the exception like GW2s thiefs attack skills).
XP are gained from killing trash mobs, bosses, doing quests, completing content and gaining achievements unlike for instance DDO who don't reward you anything far trash mobs.
But there are of course also differences from the basic EQ/Wow concept in each games, in Rifts and TORs case those differences are far less then the other though (not that I played either the last few years).
And yes, there are people who say that this Wow expansion is the best ever but the same thing were said about the last 2 as well, after a while less and less people said it about the earlier 2 and it noticed fewer people talking about it now then a couple of months ago.
I like numbers and to my knowledge have Wow actually kept on gaining more players a few months after release instead of losing and that was the first 2 expansions beside vanilla. Logically, if this was the best Wow expansion Blizz would trumpet out the message that Wow again is reaching sub numbers close to after Catas release everywhere on the net. That leaves vanilla, TBC and Wotlk as contenders for the best Wow version.
Numbers sadly wont help us pick the best among those 3 since the game gained players on a viral level during that entire era but trust me, those were the most popular times even if best more have to do with personal opinion then popularity. Out of that viewpoint can any expansion be your personal "best" but from a general point it is the earlier ones.
Early days of Asheron's Call playing on Darktide was the most fun I've ever had in gaming. Sadly, I'm sure it'll never be replicated.
I don't think it should be "replicated", AC and many of the other early games greatest thing was innovation, replicating things is the reason we are at a place where no new western AAA MMO is in development unless you count SC as one (and I count it as indie myself).
You also have to consider the fact that WOW now has better competition then they did when cata launched. So yes they had more players back then because there wasn't a good alternative. If they didn't have the current quality of mmorpg's to compete with wow they would have well over 15 mil subs.
Pre-WoW ERA with the original Ragnarok Online as its best for me. Could say Post-WoW era too, but sadly the best one didnt make to the western market. Q.Q
I'll put it this way. Games are better today. Communities are far far worse. Back then, MMOs rewarded players for teaming up and socializing. Now days, MMOs reward you for playing alone and never interacting with anyone until you're desperate for an item that can be traded or you need to do a raid or something.
I think that is what many of us who are older than 25 miss the most about older MMOs. It's why we honestly can't back to those old outdated things, but still remember them as being better.
The Pre-WoW *Era* was far better. Post is terrible. Everything is all about PvP and soloing. It wouldn't be problem if there were at least a few MMOs that required players to team up virtually all the time. Instead we just have a ton of games that are carbon copies and have the attitude of "you can pop in and out as if you were playing a single player game".
That's what MMOs are now days. Single Player MMOs. The mechanics are better, the combat is better, the visuals are better, the philosophy and communities are garbage.
I am sure the pre-Wow era started 1996 with Meridian 59 and the Realm... Even UO (1997) was out before EQ came in 1999.
I managed a software store at the time and one of my employees would not stop raving about Meridian 59. It wasn't until I got a beta invite for EQ that I paid any attention to MMORPGs.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
You also have to consider the fact that WOW now has better competition then they did when cata launched. So yes they had more players back then because there wasn't a good alternative. If they didn't have the current quality of mmorpg's to compete with wow they would have well over 15 mil subs.
I kinda doubt it.
The thing is that MMOs that had many expansions tend to get a few problems: old empty zones that drop loot far worse then the new games, far more levels then intended, a thinly streched open world with almost all players in a few zones.
Everquest have the same problem and many other ancient MMOs as well.
Also, players spend their time in the game they like best so if it is as you say, the gap between then the gap between Wow and other games are shrinking and have been so for a long time. In fact half as many players or so think Wow is the best MMO since it peaked.
So we do agree that Wow is worse today compared with other MMOs then it was while it expanded?
If that is is you say then Wow is slowly improving while other MMOs catching up and I guess that is a possibility but I still feel that if the expansions were better and not worse there is only one likely possibility left to why you get the huge raises when a new expansion hits followed by a huge drop rather soon after: Wow is more fun but only short term, the long term gameplay is more boring now then before.
I think that there are some evidence suggesting that, like that everyone say the latest expansion is best ever short after release but comment it with "meh" 12-18 months after the release. When TBC and WoTLK released a far higher percentage of the players were still playing after that time as well as new joining in. Of course Wow looks less attractive to new players today then during TBC so the new player ratio will be down somewhat but I doubt it is enough to make a huge impact.
Wow is hardly the only game with the problem though, more then a few MMOs topped their active players 6 weeks after launch and then lost the majority of them rather fast.
The early MMOs people played far longer and is why I voted like I did, I think that if the future MMOs want to keep their players they will need to focus on long term fun instead of giving you 90% of the expansion fun factor in a short gigantic burst.
I guess the whole thing is a different perspective and that is why some people prefer vanilla while others prefer Legion. I want my MMOs to last though and I just don't see the new games last as long as EQ and AC did. Nor do I see the average new Wow player today stay as long as the average vanilla player did.
As of this writing , this...Post-WoW Era (2012-Present)* has 10 votes ( around 11% from the total votes ) .
..and when I tell the "PML" ( Present MMO Lovers ) , that they are a minority and that the time when mmo's were.. MMO'S has long gone, they go crazy on me and call me "OML" ( Old MMO Lover ) who can't adapt or something.
...right !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy? Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
As of this writing , this...Post-WoW Era (2012-Present)* has 10 votes ( around 11% from the total votes ) .
..and when I tell the "PML" ( Present MMO Lovers ) , that they are a minority and that the time when mmo's were.. MMO'S has long gone, they go crazy on me and call me "OML" ( Old MMO Lover ) who can't adapt or something.
...right !
Well, to be fair are we mainly MMO fanatics here and our opinion should probably not be considered the average gamers...
I mean, the early MMOs have more then twice the votes of the Wow era and I can't recall that many people playing back then. We were considered very geeky at the time while playing Wow in 2006 wasn't enough to make anyone raise an eyebrow (well, maybe the PTA but those guys thought that D&D and W.A.S.P lead to human sacrifices).
Comments
Luckily my wife now doesn't mind my game hobby and has actually played a few MMOs with me. It's not the same though because she is not a PVPer.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
I don't think I could be more opposite that opinion.
Mmorpgs are very much more made for kids (teens) these days, just look at simplified mechanics, flashy effects and focus on character models, the lack of soul and complete focus on retention mechanics (money grab) that most adults will see right through.
And for the rose tinted standard comment, though I find it hard to stumac something like p1999, I still had an awesome time in two different eq progression servers and with all the choices of mmorpgs (which I btw also played a bunch of), I still haven't found anything that can compete with eq. I also played a wow emu, which was not as great as I remembered it. In fact only a few games stand out, so it is not a "everything was better" thing, just those few exceptionally great ones like eq. Maybe you got those rose tinted glasses on, I look objectively and through no filters because I have actually returned and re-played those games...
Of course nothing can be completely objective when taste and preferences applies.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
This video came out today and it does have interesting things that you dont see anymore in games. Obscure things randomly placed in area's that may seem random but there actually there for reason but whether or not people are able to find the little secrets or big secret is another story.
These little things you see in this video may not seem like a whole lot but they do make a huge different when playing the game, from slow boats that took awhile to a random non KOS ghost that appears at a random beach every night (making you wonder why is she there, some people even try to find the exact reason) They may not suceed but i have a feeling the answer is there somewhere as there often is the case when it came to EQ just may take awhile to find or the secrets may never be revealed.
Take this offical video for example for the 10 year anniversary :
- 1:54 sec - There are more than 3,000 items never been discovered by players. think about it for a game being that old there are still 3,000 items that have never been found some of which are most likly rewards and thing from these hidden quests and secret spots around the world of norrath that people just couldnt put the secret together
There were many many secrets of Norrath and it made the world feel great for those who took there time and didnt scip past things
Compare it with a CIV player that play Minecraft the first time, both are sandbox games but very different from eachother. Eve Online for example is different enough so it can work if it is your style.
A good MMO adaption of a game like Shadowrun for instance could do it, it is so different from D&D (which almost all MMOs are based on) that it would feel completelly different while still be a MMORPG (unless the devs wuss out and ude the Wow mechanics of course). I had high hopes of CCPs World of darkness online until they decided to focus on Dust instead (big mistake).
I enjoyed a lot of time in EQ 1999-2001 and my EVE time 2003-2007 with ww2online at the same time, did a 6 months tour in EQ2 when it relased and I had a lot of fun in EVE later on and after 2010 had good times with ESO, GW2 and SWTOR.
But If I'm forced to pick an era would be 2010-to present due to I still play EVE from time to time, and GW2, going back to ESO and SWTOR and honourable mention would be Black Desert.
And there's quite a few people who say WOW today is better then ever. I didn't put it on the list because i haven't tried it in 4 years.
All of them besides GW2 are questdriven, something many older had few or none. Skills are generally handled with cooldown (even if there are the exception like GW2s thiefs attack skills).
XP are gained from killing trash mobs, bosses, doing quests, completing content and gaining achievements unlike for instance DDO who don't reward you anything far trash mobs.
But there are of course also differences from the basic EQ/Wow concept in each games, in Rifts and TORs case those differences are far less then the other though (not that I played either the last few years).
And yes, there are people who say that this Wow expansion is the best ever but the same thing were said about the last 2 as well, after a while less and less people said it about the earlier 2 and it noticed fewer people talking about it now then a couple of months ago.
I like numbers and to my knowledge have Wow actually kept on gaining more players a few months after release instead of losing and that was the first 2 expansions beside vanilla. Logically, if this was the best Wow expansion Blizz would trumpet out the message that Wow again is reaching sub numbers close to after Catas release everywhere on the net.
That leaves vanilla, TBC and Wotlk as contenders for the best Wow version.
Numbers sadly wont help us pick the best among those 3 since the game gained players on a viral level during that entire era but trust me, those were the most popular times even if best more have to do with personal opinion then popularity. Out of that viewpoint can any expansion be your personal "best" but from a general point it is the earlier ones.
I don't think it should be "replicated", AC and many of the other early games greatest thing was innovation, replicating things is the reason we are at a place where no new western AAA MMO is in development unless you count SC as one (and I count it as indie myself).
My Top 10 of all time (In no particular order):
- Everquest - 1999
- Everquest 2 (Vanilla) - 2004
- WoW (Vanilla) - 2004
- Star Wars Galaxies - 2004
- Dark Age of Camelot - 2004
- EVE Online - 2003
- Darkfall - 2009
- Archeage (minus Cash Shop) - 2014
- Black Desert - 2016
- Elders Scrolls Online - 2014
5 games Pre-WoW (I include Vanilla WoW as I consider it an Old School), and 3 Post-WoW.
The so called WoW Era (2004-2012) is a massive hole in my gaming history, almost irrelevant.
Only game I liked during that era is Darkfall which coincidentally is not a WoW clone.
But to your point, not everybody thinks their first was the best.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Spot on.
moo all
That's some funny shit.
The thing is that MMOs that had many expansions tend to get a few problems: old empty zones that drop loot far worse then the new games, far more levels then intended, a thinly streched open world with almost all players in a few zones.
Everquest have the same problem and many other ancient MMOs as well.
Also, players spend their time in the game they like best so if it is as you say, the gap between then the gap between Wow and other games are shrinking and have been so for a long time. In fact half as many players or so think Wow is the best MMO since it peaked.
So we do agree that Wow is worse today compared with other MMOs then it was while it expanded?
If that is is you say then Wow is slowly improving while other MMOs catching up and I guess that is a possibility but I still feel that if the expansions were better and not worse there is only one likely possibility left to why you get the huge raises when a new expansion hits followed by a huge drop rather soon after: Wow is more fun but only short term, the long term gameplay is more boring now then before.
I think that there are some evidence suggesting that, like that everyone say the latest expansion is best ever short after release but comment it with "meh" 12-18 months after the release. When TBC and WoTLK released a far higher percentage of the players were still playing after that time as well as new joining in. Of course Wow looks less attractive to new players today then during TBC so the new player ratio will be down somewhat but I doubt it is enough to make a huge impact.
Wow is hardly the only game with the problem though, more then a few MMOs topped their active players 6 weeks after launch and then lost the majority of them rather fast.
The early MMOs people played far longer and is why I voted like I did, I think that if the future MMOs want to keep their players they will need to focus on long term fun instead of giving you 90% of the expansion fun factor in a short gigantic burst.
I guess the whole thing is a different perspective and that is why some people prefer vanilla while others prefer Legion. I want my MMOs to last though and I just don't see the new games last as long as EQ and AC did. Nor do I see the average new Wow player today stay as long as the average vanilla player did.
Sorry for the wall of text...
..and when I tell the "PML" ( Present MMO Lovers ) , that they are a minority and that the time when mmo's were.. MMO'S has long gone, they go crazy on me and call me "OML" ( Old MMO Lover ) who can't adapt or something.
...right !
Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!
I mean, the early MMOs have more then twice the votes of the Wow era and I can't recall that many people playing back then. We were considered very geeky at the time while playing Wow in 2006 wasn't enough to make anyone raise an eyebrow (well, maybe the PTA but those guys thought that D&D and W.A.S.P lead to human sacrifices).