Does Star Citizen REALLY exist?

Phaserlight

Phry said:

Phaserlight said:

MaxBacon said:

botrytis said:

LOL groundbreaking? ROFL - keep drinking the SC koolaid. By the time SC comes out it will be so far behind the curve that it will be known as crap.

Sure is! There's nothing on the MMO genre that provides the gameplay experience SC does with what it already combined on the alpha, bugs and performance aside. Unless I'm missing some obvious game, the only game that has planned some of these features on the MMO sphere is E: D.

Also people have been saying that since 2012; and since 2012 this game has had quite the jumps both on the graphically and on the technological level; seen on things like their work to make a proper DX12 / Vulkan implementation.

Before SC to be far behind and known as crap, I think the MMO standards need to catch up first, and that my friend is as we see, a slow-ass process.

Depends on what you're looking for in a space sim MMO, I guess, although I empathize with where your post is coming from.

Vendetta Online has a non-instanced, Newtonian twitch combat galaxy with a thriving player economy. 

I just closed a player to player trade that more than doubled my in-game liquid capital, and I've been playing for 13 years. Feeling bullish. When I say "liquid capital" I don't mean USD, either. I earned it through finding a niche to compete in,  gameplay-wise.

If they did the same with Vendetta Online as they did with Eve Online, which is to revamp the games graphics on a regular basis, one of the reasons why Eve Online still has cutting edge graphics even after 12 years or so, then Vendetta would probably do better, its not a bad game, but it looks very dated these days.

I've really been meaning to dive into Eve at some point, if for no other reason than they have awesome ship designs, and a Japanese forum (seriously! I'm of Scandanavian descent, but I was born in Tokyo and lived in Japan for 15 years).  Now that it's F2P I really don't have any excuses left, although $15 a month isn't much anyway.

CrazKanuk

Rhoklaw said:

Erillion said:

Rhoklaw said:

You enjoy your $140 million dollar space combat simulator because as of right now, Chris Roberts said SQ42 is the ONLY product that is financially secure for completion.

....if funding stops completely RIGHT NOW.

Which it won't 


Have fun 

Which is great, but my statement was more of a financial blunder of sorts to actually admit that after $140 million, all you have is a space combat simulator. I can't imagine how much capital he'll need to actually complete the PU version, you know, the actual game.

That depends, how close is it? We know there are lots of pieces done, but what does that represent? Is it 80% there? 90% there? Or is it 30% there? Unfortunately, it seems that most are still just interested in debating the meaningless instead of actually asking the right questions. It's no wonder you can't imagine, because you don't know how far along it is. It's essentially asking "How long is a rope?"

Erillion

Rhoklaw said:

Erillion said:

Rhoklaw said:

You enjoy your $140 million dollar space combat simulator because as of right now, Chris Roberts said SQ42 is the ONLY product that is financially secure for completion.

....if funding stops completely RIGHT NOW.

Which it won't 


Have fun 

Which is great, but my statement was more of a financial blunder of sorts to actually admit that after $140 million, all you have is a space combat simulator. I can't imagine how much capital he'll need to actually complete the PU version, you know, the actual game.

Then ... imagine ...


Have fun

Octagon7711

CrazKanuk said:

Rhoklaw said:

Erillion said:

Rhoklaw said:

You enjoy your $140 million dollar space combat simulator because as of right now, Chris Roberts said SQ42 is the ONLY product that is financially secure for completion.

....if funding stops completely RIGHT NOW.

Which it won't 


Have fun 

Which is great, but my statement was more of a financial blunder of sorts to actually admit that after $140 million, all you have is a space combat simulator. I can't imagine how much capital he'll need to actually complete the PU version, you know, the actual game.

That depends, how close is it? We know there are lots of pieces done, but what does that represent? Is it 80% there? 90% there? Or is it 30% there? Unfortunately, it seems that most are still just interested in debating the meaningless instead of actually asking the right questions. It's no wonder you can't imagine, because you don't know how far along it is. It's essentially asking "How long is a rope?"

I think it's about 30% done with about 110% planning speculation.  They just keep adding ideas.  But plan on release of a MVP.  Minimally viable product which was mentioned by CR.

MaxBacon

Octagon7711 said:

I think it's about 30% done with about 110% planning speculation.  They just keep adding ideas.  But plan on release of a MVP.  Minimally viable product which was mentioned by CR.

Planning and design stages will continue even after the game is released, the pure nature of the constant development of a game like this.

Now...
X feature was mentioned = confirmed for release. < nope, just nope.

It is why it is useless speculation because you have to run under the assumption of the assumption of the assumption too even speculate it.

Under wild speculation, I'd say it's safer to speculate the % done towards 4.0. Because the roadmap to it is already a fully fleshed game and can very well be very close to SC's release.

kikoodutroa8

Octagon7711 said:

CrazKanuk said:

Rhoklaw said:

Erillion said:

Rhoklaw said:

You enjoy your $140 million dollar space combat simulator because as of right now, Chris Roberts said SQ42 is the ONLY product that is financially secure for completion.

....if funding stops completely RIGHT NOW.

Which it won't 


Have fun 

Which is great, but my statement was more of a financial blunder of sorts to actually admit that after $140 million, all you have is a space combat simulator. I can't imagine how much capital he'll need to actually complete the PU version, you know, the actual game.

That depends, how close is it? We know there are lots of pieces done, but what does that represent? Is it 80% there? 90% there? Or is it 30% there? Unfortunately, it seems that most are still just interested in debating the meaningless instead of actually asking the right questions. It's no wonder you can't imagine, because you don't know how far along it is. It's essentially asking "How long is a rope?"

I think it's about 30% done with about 110% planning speculation.  They just keep adding ideas.  But plan on release of a MVP.  Minimally viable product which was mentioned by CR.

Game has been in development for 4 years and will be released last quarter of this one, so it's obviously around 80% now. Easy maths!

Octagon7711

kikoodutroa8 said:

Octagon7711 said:

CrazKanuk said:

Rhoklaw said:

Erillion said:

Rhoklaw said:

You enjoy your $140 million dollar space combat simulator because as of right now, Chris Roberts said SQ42 is the ONLY product that is financially secure for completion.

....if funding stops completely RIGHT NOW.

Which it won't 


Have fun 

Which is great, but my statement was more of a financial blunder of sorts to actually admit that after $140 million, all you have is a space combat simulator. I can't imagine how much capital he'll need to actually complete the PU version, you know, the actual game.

That depends, how close is it? We know there are lots of pieces done, but what does that represent? Is it 80% there? 90% there? Or is it 30% there? Unfortunately, it seems that most are still just interested in debating the meaningless instead of actually asking the right questions. It's no wonder you can't imagine, because you don't know how far along it is. It's essentially asking "How long is a rope?"

I think it's about 30% done with about 110% planning speculation.  They just keep adding ideas.  But plan on release of a MVP.  Minimally viable product which was mentioned by CR.

Game has been in development for 4 years and will be released last quarter of this one, so it's obviously around 80% now. Easy maths!

OK, you got me on that one.  I'm speechless...

CrazKanuk

Octagon7711 said:

CrazKanuk said:

Rhoklaw said:

Erillion said:

Rhoklaw said:

You enjoy your $140 million dollar space combat simulator because as of right now, Chris Roberts said SQ42 is the ONLY product that is financially secure for completion.

....if funding stops completely RIGHT NOW.

Which it won't 


Have fun 

Which is great, but my statement was more of a financial blunder of sorts to actually admit that after $140 million, all you have is a space combat simulator. I can't imagine how much capital he'll need to actually complete the PU version, you know, the actual game.

That depends, how close is it? We know there are lots of pieces done, but what does that represent? Is it 80% there? 90% there? Or is it 30% there? Unfortunately, it seems that most are still just interested in debating the meaningless instead of actually asking the right questions. It's no wonder you can't imagine, because you don't know how far along it is. It's essentially asking "How long is a rope?"

I think it's about 30% done with about 110% planning speculation.  They just keep adding ideas.  But plan on release of a MVP.  Minimally viable product which was mentioned by CR.

I don't think they've added any new features in over a year, no? Don't quote me on that, but upon announcing they were working towards an MVP I believe it was also made clear that they would not be implementing any new features, either. So while the list of possibilities could still be growing, I think that there is at least a hard target. This actually makes it a little more transparent only due to the fact that they would need to be accountable to the items in that schedule, well don't HAVE to, but it makes it more likely they will. Unfortunately, I don't see future schedules?? Although they do list their plans for future updates here I'm not sure if they have an updated schedule for the next release or not. Either way, it seems like the next release should begin to round things out a bit. 

MaxBacon

CrazKanuk said:
they were working towards an MVP I believe it was also made clear that they would not be implementing any new features, either. So while the list of possibilities could still be growing, I think that there is at least a hard target. 

It's exactly this!
There are tons of planned features so forth of things they do want to do, but none of that is confirmed that it will be there by release unless they specifically state that it is. This on things that are outside the Stretch Goals.

It was mentioned this month for the next updates production report to be added there; that is 2.6.1 and 3.0.

CrazKanuk

MaxBacon said:

CrazKanuk said:
they were working towards an MVP I believe it was also made clear that they would not be implementing any new features, either. So while the list of possibilities could still be growing, I think that there is at least a hard target. 

It's exactly this!
There are tons of planned features so forth of things they do want to do, but none of that is confirmed that it will be there by release unless they specifically state that it is. This on things that are outside the Stretch Goals.

It was mentioned this month for the next updates production report to be added there; that is 2.6.1 and 3.0.

Meaning they are going to quote a date for 3.0? And give people a nice shiny graph of pretty bars for features they'll be implementing in that timeline? 

MaxBacon

CrazKanuk said:

Meaning they are going to quote a date for 3.0? And give people a nice shiny graph of pretty bars for features they'll be implementing in that timeline? 

When they add 3.0 to it yeah, they'll have to give a timeframe for it. It's like what they did with 2.6, you see the graphs and the tasks being updated weekly, obviously, the date will float but it's a far more open look at what's going on and when tasks get delayed, why did it happen, I'm really curious for the status of 3.0.

We'll see soon enough if they update it before the end of the month.

Arglebargle

There's a youtube video out where Garriott and Spector both talk about CR and his style of leadership. You know, two people who would actually know what they're talking about - and they both criticise his perfectionism, but clearly acknowledge his talents.

That doesn't mean he's perfect - or that he's not arrogant or a control freak. It's not exactly a rare thing with people who're passionate or dedicated to their craft. One person he reminds me of, a lot, would be James Cameron - who's known for exactly the same things.

Why are you talking about what DS said about the budget needed? Do we have any reason to believe he knows what he's talking about. I love how you discredit every good thing about CR because your friends have told you bad things about him - but for whatever reason, DS gets a pass here? That's amusing.

In the end, all I can do is look at the games with his name on it - and I happen to be a HUGE fan of Wing Commander, Privateer, Freelancer and Starlancer. All of which he played significant parts on - issues during development or not. The issues with Freelancer and Microsoft might very well be CR aiming too high - but maybe, just maybe - it would have been a great game if he'd had the support he was hoping for? The game that was released was fantastic - and I hope you understand that CR is quite responsible for A LOT of what's good about that game, even if he left production at some point.

But that's not really my point at all, my point is that you're obsessed with him. You're looking at everything Star Citizen from that single narrow perspective of one person you don't personally know. You're completely ignoring all the things he's accomplished. EVERYTHING he's ever done, you've dismissed and downplayed as meaningless trivia - because he's such a terrible manager.

Almost every single post from you - and apparently you never stop around here - is about CR and how terrible he is.

This despite the fact that the game is obviously progressing - and things are moving forward. This despite how many times the CIG team has expressed how much they love the project and the job - over and over and over - and we're not talking PR stunts, because they haven't been in control of all the interviews.

I don't think you're being objective in the least, and I think you're in for quite a challenge when it comes to explaining why the game is actually coming out.

*I* can acknowledge that CR isn't perfect. He's clearly a flawed manager when it comes to predicting how long things will take - and he's obviously not good at relinquishing control. He's probably too ambitious for his own good, but then again - you sort of have to be if you want to really break new ground.

Can YOU acknowledge the good parts about him? What would they be?

With all your posting here DKlond, you really don't get to accuse me of obsession. 

Good things about Chris Roberts?  Cinematics.  Even his harshest critics here acknowledged his innovation on that, decades ago.  And that was also his focus on WC3 and 4, where he left much of the game design to others to concentrate on the cut scenes.  Of course, that didn't translate to his Hollywood phase, where the Wing Commander movie was such a disaster that he never directed again.  Oh, and he's a wiz at marketing.   The ability to raise all this money is pretty exceptional.   Of course, that developed over time, as his sights were originally set to a much more attainable target.

Roberts wasn't liked at Origin because he was an asshat.    Garriott was  worse as a manager, and his Ultimas were often year-long crunches, but Garriott is still well liked by many who worked under him.  The success of Wing Commander is undisputed, and it led to Roberts' continued projects.  Just note that WC2 was handed to a different developer, the guy who did most of the heavy lifting on the programming of WC1.  I also suspect that Warren Spector was brought in to help finish off WC1, as that was one of Spector's roles at Origin.  While I haven't talked to Warren about Roberts in 15 years, I played D&D with him for a decade.  He used to dogsit for me.  

Roberts' Strike Commander, even with all the backing of Origin, was still three years late, wasteful in time and effort.    Digital Anvil:  Four years of effort and funding, and no games produced in house.  Pattern.

You have the supposition that Chris Roberts is competent and innovative, because his name was on some boxes.  Certainly everything Roberts says is aimed at building his legend.  My friends who worked with him say his productions were disorganized messes, and suffered from his arrogant need to whizz on everything to mark it as his.   He appoints his cronies as department heads, without a real regard to their ability.   Some are actually good, but if you look at the crew at Digital Anvil and CIG, you see some of the same faces.   And DA did not deliver.  Star Lancer was a Bullfrog production.   Privateer was done under Erin's watch.  It took Microsoft three years to get  Freelancer out, and Roberts admitted that it was out of money and unreleasable when it was sold off to MS and it was already past its original release date at that point.  His name is not even on that box aside from 'Original Concept'. Roberts' will claim he was intimately involved in all their development, but that's just his myth building at work.  

All of these games were done prior to the internet age, so information leakage was much more contained then.

As for the Cameron-Roberts comparison:  Certainly Roberts would bask in that, but he's nowhere near the skill level of James Cameron.  Feel free to compare and contrast their first movies.  Cameron holds engineering patents on a lot of his camera designs.  Cameron is skilled and competent.  Roberts - not nearly so much. 

And the DS reference apparently went over your head.   Even the Evil One once claimed that the game couldn't get made for less than $150 million.  SC's fund raising is pretty close to that number.  Ergo, even DS's early screeds actually support the game being doable. 

I certainly have never thought the game wouldn't be released.  SC is too tightly tied to Roberts enormous ego.  And it has the funding to succeed, even with the lamentable sea anchor of Roberts screwing with the production at every step.  That's why my commentary brings up Roberts most of the time.  He's in charge of the production, is bad at it, is  too egotistical to understand that, and has to whizz on every single thing, every single decision.  I've stated numerous times that the CIG studios  will succeed in releasing some sort of game, and that their communal skill will determine how good it is.   But that's despite Roberts' willful interference, not because of it.

((had to truncate this due to the joys of board software...sorry!))

MaxBacon

Rhoklaw said:

I'm still going to go with what I've said all along. They didn't spend $140 million on SQ42, the FPS module or the PU. I'm sure you'll get a $30 million version of the PU aka that MVP and once again, hidden secrets will remain hidden. Still think hiding financial records is a good idea? Sure, but only if you are not spending it on what it is supposed to be spent on and that is the bottom line.

I always find hilarious this type of conspiracies. It's as obvious as any estimations of how much does it cost to develop this game at their scale have always shown.

Only the ones who do not want to go through logic when it comes to financials + their operating cost, would ignore that and prefer to go with theories that the money is spent elsewhere on a relevant scale.

DKLond

Arglebargle said:

There's a youtube video out where Garriott and Spector both talk about CR and his ......

With all your posting here DKlond, you really don't get to accuse me of obsession. 

Good things about Chris Roberts?  Cinematics.  Even his harshest critics here acknowledged his innovation on that, decades ago.  And that was also his focus on WC3 and 4, where he left much of the game design to others to concentrate on the cut scenes.  Of course, that didn't translate to his Hollywood phase, where the Wing Commander movie was such a disaster that he never directed again.  Oh, and he's a wiz at marketing.   The ability to raise all this money is pretty exceptional.   Of course, that developed over time, as his sights were originally set to a much more attainable target.

Roberts wasn't liked at Origin because he was an asshat.    Garriott was  worse as a manager, and his Ultimas were often year-long crunches, but Garriott is still well liked by many who worked under him.  The success of Wing Commander is undisputed, and it led to Roberts' continued projects.  Just note that WC2 was handed to a different developer, the guy who did most of the heavy lifting on the programming of WC1.  I also suspect that Warren Spector was brought in to help finish off WC1, as that was one of Spector's roles at Origin.  While I haven't talked to Warren about Roberts in 15 years, I played D&D with him for a decade.  He used to dogsit for me.  

Roberts' Strike Commander, even with all the backing of Origin, was still three years late, wasteful in time and effort.    Digital Anvil:  Four years of effort and funding, and no games produced in house.  Pattern.

You have the supposition that Chris Roberts is competent and innovative, because his name was on some boxes.  Certainly everything Roberts says is aimed at building his legend.  My friends who worked with him say his productions were disorganized messes, and suffered from his arrogant need to whizz on everything to mark it as his.   He appoints his cronies as department heads, without a real regard to their ability.   Some are actually good, but if you look at the crew at Digital Anvil and CIG, you see some of the same faces.   And DA did not deliver.  Star Lancer was a Bullfrog production.   Privateer was done under Erin's watch.  It took Microsoft three years to get  Freelancer out, and Roberts admitted that it was out of money and unreleasable when it was sold off to MS and it was already past its original release date at that point.  His name is not even on that box aside from 'Original Concept'. Roberts' will claim he was intimately involved in all their development, but that's just his myth building at work.  

All of these games were done prior to the internet age, so information leakage was much more contained then.

As for the Cameron-Roberts comparison:  Certainly Roberts would bask in that, but he's nowhere near the skill level of James Cameron.  Feel free to compare and contrast their first movies.  Cameron holds engineering patents on a lot of his camera designs.  Cameron is skilled and competent.  Roberts - not nearly so much. 

And the DS reference apparently went over your head.   Even the Evil One once claimed that the game couldn't get made for less than $150 million.  SC's fund raising is pretty close to that number.  Ergo, even DS's early screeds actually support the game being doable. 

I certainly have never thought the game wouldn't be released.  SC is too tightly tied to Roberts enormous ego.  And it has the funding to succeed, even with the lamentable sea anchor of Roberts screwing with the production at every step.  That's why my commentary brings up Roberts most of the time.  He's in charge of the production, is bad at it, is  too egotistical to understand that, and has to whizz on every single thing, every single decision.  I've stated numerous times that the CIG studios  will succeed in releasing some sort of game, and that their communal skill will determine how good it is.   But that's despite Roberts' willful interference, not because of it.

((had to truncate this due to the joys of board software...sorry!))

You mean because I come back here every 2-3 months and find you still repeating the same drivel about a person you don't know - that makes me the obsessed one? Ok, sure

As for the rest of your post, I see that you can't acknowledge CR has ever done anything of value. The best you can come up with is "cinematics" - which is obviously your way of dodging him having real merit as a developer, especially since you go on to the movie immediately.

Cameron? If we ignore how much Terminator stole from Westworld, then it was certainly a great movie - and Aliens was even better. That's about it for Cameron, though. At least, for my part. But he's got an almost identical reputation for being an "asshat" - which is how the smaller egos would describe him. Obviously, some people respect and acknowledge his talents - but then again, not all people have small egos.

Roberts came up with the bitmap ship rotation system for Wing Commander (and he also did most of the coding involved) - which is the primary reason the game was such a smash. Quite an apt comparison, I would say.

Yes, I also have the impression that Garriott was a bad manager, much like Roberts can be a bad manager.

But I'm not talking about their managment skills - I'm talking about the developer skills, which is what I think is key to appreciate.

You know what? I suspect you DID work with Roberts at one point - and you're one of those people who can't deal with talent when you encounter it.

You sound so incredibly bitter about a person you have no connection to, that I can't come up with anything else.

If we go through your posts in these threads, that never seem to stop, that's all you can ever talk about. CR being terrible.

Everything good about every game he's ever been involved with is 100% about other people - and the same will be true for Star Citizen - completely and utterly ignoring that it's clearly HIS vision and that he's even more clearly in total charge of the overall production.

Here we don't have to rely on your "insider" information, because it's thoroughly documented in all the videos CIG are doing. It will be great to hear how you rationalise him not actually contributing anything but "money" to the project.

It's amazing how small and frail egos can be so damaged that all of reality can be set aside simply to spew bile upon whatever target you've created to explain away your bitterness.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to answer. You didn't have to do much to come off as a lot more reasonable, but then you had to go and nullify every single quality CR could ever have.

Such a position speaks volumes about you.

Even Hitler had qualities that most historians acknowledge as significant. But, no, not CR.

CrazKanuk

Rhoklaw said:

I'm still going to go with what I've said all along. They didn't spend $140 million on SQ42, the FPS module or the PU. I'm sure you'll get a $30 million version of the PU aka that MVP and once again, hidden secrets will remain hidden. Still think hiding financial records is a good idea? Sure, but only if you are not spending it on what it is supposed to be spent on and that is the bottom line.

This is fucking hilarious. Anyone with half a brain and a calculator, and half a brain to work a calculator, can figure out what they've spent on salaries. The game could end up being shit, but believing that they've someone created some massive conspiracy while managing to keep 300 employees quiet about it is fucking hilarious. Honestly..... Make math great again.

Kefo

DKLond said:

Arglebargle said:

There's a youtube video out where Garriott and Spector both talk about CR and his ......

With all your posting here DKlond, you really don't get to accuse me of obsession. 

Good things about Chris Roberts?  Cinematics.  Even his harshest critics here acknowledged his innovation on that, decades ago.  And that was also his focus on WC3 and 4, where he left much of the game design to others to concentrate on the cut scenes.  Of course, that didn't translate to his Hollywood phase, where the Wing Commander movie was such a disaster that he never directed again.  Oh, and he's a wiz at marketing.   The ability to raise all this money is pretty exceptional.   Of course, that developed over time, as his sights were originally set to a much more attainable target.

Roberts wasn't liked at Origin because he was an asshat.    Garriott was  worse as a manager, and his Ultimas were often year-long crunches, but Garriott is still well liked by many who worked under him.  The success of Wing Commander is undisputed, and it led to Roberts' continued projects.  Just note that WC2 was handed to a different developer, the guy who did most of the heavy lifting on the programming of WC1.  I also suspect that Warren Spector was brought in to help finish off WC1, as that was one of Spector's roles at Origin.  While I haven't talked to Warren about Roberts in 15 years, I played D&D with him for a decade.  He used to dogsit for me.  

Roberts' Strike Commander, even with all the backing of Origin, was still three years late, wasteful in time and effort.    Digital Anvil:  Four years of effort and funding, and no games produced in house.  Pattern.

You have the supposition that Chris Roberts is competent and innovative, because his name was on some boxes.  Certainly everything Roberts says is aimed at building his legend.  My friends who worked with him say his productions were disorganized messes, and suffered from his arrogant need to whizz on everything to mark it as his.   He appoints his cronies as department heads, without a real regard to their ability.   Some are actually good, but if you look at the crew at Digital Anvil and CIG, you see some of the same faces.   And DA did not deliver.  Star Lancer was a Bullfrog production.   Privateer was done under Erin's watch.  It took Microsoft three years to get  Freelancer out, and Roberts admitted that it was out of money and unreleasable when it was sold off to MS and it was already past its original release date at that point.  His name is not even on that box aside from 'Original Concept'. Roberts' will claim he was intimately involved in all their development, but that's just his myth building at work.  

All of these games were done prior to the internet age, so information leakage was much more contained then.

As for the Cameron-Roberts comparison:  Certainly Roberts would bask in that, but he's nowhere near the skill level of James Cameron.  Feel free to compare and contrast their first movies.  Cameron holds engineering patents on a lot of his camera designs.  Cameron is skilled and competent.  Roberts - not nearly so much. 

And the DS reference apparently went over your head.   Even the Evil One once claimed that the game couldn't get made for less than $150 million.  SC's fund raising is pretty close to that number.  Ergo, even DS's early screeds actually support the game being doable. 

I certainly have never thought the game wouldn't be released.  SC is too tightly tied to Roberts enormous ego.  And it has the funding to succeed, even with the lamentable sea anchor of Roberts screwing with the production at every step.  That's why my commentary brings up Roberts most of the time.  He's in charge of the production, is bad at it, is  too egotistical to understand that, and has to whizz on every single thing, every single decision.  I've stated numerous times that the CIG studios  will succeed in releasing some sort of game, and that their communal skill will determine how good it is.   But that's despite Roberts' willful interference, not because of it.

((had to truncate this due to the joys of board software...sorry!))

You mean because I come back here every 2-3 months and find you still repeating the same drivel about a person you don't know - that makes me the obsessed one? Ok, sure

As for the rest of your post, I see that you can't acknowledge CR has ever done anything of value. The best you can come up with is "cinematics" - which is obviously your way of dodging him having real merit as a developer, especially since you go on to the movie immediately.

Cameron? If we ignore how much Terminator stole from Westworld, then it was certainly a great movie - and Aliens was even better. That's about it for Cameron, though. At least, for my part. But he's got an almost identical reputation for being an "asshat" - which is how the smaller egos would describe him. Obviously, some people respect and acknowledge his talents - but then again, not all people have small egos.

Roberts came up with the bitmap ship rotation system for Wing Commander (and he also did most of the coding involved) - which is the primary reason the game was such a smash. Quite an apt comparison, I would say.

Yes, I also have the impression that Garriott was a bad manager, much like Roberts can be a bad manager.

But I'm not talking about their managment skills - I'm talking about the developer skills, which is what I think is key to appreciate.

You know what? I suspect you DID work with Roberts at one point - and you're one of those people who can't deal with talent when you encounter it.

You sound so incredibly bitter about a person you have no connection to, that I can't come up with anything else.

If we go through your posts in these threads, that never seem to stop, that's all you can ever talk about. CR being terrible.

Everything good about every game he's ever been involved with is 100% about other people - and the same will be true for Star Citizen - completely and utterly ignoring that it's clearly HIS vision and that he's even more clearly in total charge of the overall production.

Here we don't have to rely on your "insider" information, because it's thoroughly documented in all the videos CIG are doing. It will be great to hear how you rationalise him not actually contributing anything but "money" to the project.

It's amazing how small and frail egos can be so damaged that all of reality can be set aside simply to spew bile upon whatever target you've created to explain away your bitterness.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to answer. You didn't have to do much to come off as a lot more reasonable, but then you had to go and nullify every single quality CR could ever have.

Such a position speaks volumes about you.

Even Hitler had qualities that most historians acknowledge as significant. But, no, not CR.

You broke Goodwins law therefore your argument is rendered useless

DKLond

Kefo said:

DKLond said:

Arglebargle said:

There's a youtube video out where Garriott and Spector both talk about CR and his ......

You broke Goodwins law therefore your argument is rendered useless

I don't think you understand that law.

I actually didn't break it - I abided by it. Also, there's no implicit value attached to following it.

rodarin

CrazKanuk said:

Rhoklaw said:

I'm still going to go with what I've said all along. They didn't spend $140 million on SQ42, the FPS module or the PU. I'm sure you'll get a $30 million version of the PU aka that MVP and once again, hidden secrets will remain hidden. Still think hiding financial records is a good idea? Sure, but only if you are not spending it on what it is supposed to be spent on and that is the bottom line.

This is fucking hilarious. Anyone with half a brain and a calculator, and half a brain to work a calculator, can figure out what they've spent on salaries. The game could end up being shit, but believing that they've someone created some massive conspiracy while managing to keep 300 employees quiet about it is fucking hilarious. Honestly..... Make math great again.

Thats why I say all these things are a scam in some way. This project has kept xxx amount of people employed for the past 4-5 years. Personnel Figures and actual time frame can be debated. But these kickstarters and crowd funded projects are great ways for people who dont want to actually work do something and make a decent living at it. Obviously Roberts and the higher ups are reaping the most benefits from it as they can live their fantasy Hollywood lifestyle.

But it flies in the face of EVERYTHING every one of these companies claim "we want to make a game without 'corporate' restraints'' which means we need less money and less time to do it. Yet they have made more money and had more time than most established studios to put out a hell of a lot more than they have.

Also considering how micro managed ALL projects are and how hyper micro managed this one is I can imagine no one knows what the other guy is doing even if theyre side by side. So what do they have to cover up? They only know what theyre working on. And it could be anything and any excuse theyre given would be plausible. I mean how many times have they redone stuff already? So if a guy is working on basic movement code what is he going to say? And what would it mean? About the same as if a guy claimed he was working on the mining class, and doing tiers and coding all the different minerals. Wouldnt mean dick. Definitely wouldnt mean they had an actual use for it somewhere just that he was getting paid to do that particular coding job.

But yeah if you mix in a calculator and go by what Roberts has claimed and that they need 3 mil a month to keep up a steady pace thats 36 mil a year and at 140 mil thats basically 4 years.  So its not hard to think they have spent all their money already on salaries. Again we can debate the numbers of employees all we want but even if they go up and down the wiggle room isnt that huge. Not when you start adding up all the other shit they have spent money on.

But the product that is 'playable' represents the product of that work and those salaries. Which is basically what can maybe be expected under ALL the circumstances this mess has gone through over the years. Theyre obviously going to get SOMETHING for the work all those peopel have put it, and what you see is probably what youre going to get.

Thats why people who want this project to turn into an actual game better pray people keep throwing money at it like they have been.

Octagon7711

Nothing is real.  Life itself is a dream.  A projection of everything within ourselves.  So when I argue with someone, I argue for a projection of my belief system.

DKLond

rodarin said:

CrazKanuk said:

Rhoklaw said:

I'm still going to go with what I've said all along. They didn't spend $140 million on SQ42, the FPS module or the PU. I'm sure you'll get a $30 million version of the PU aka that MVP and once again, hidden secrets will remain hidden. Still think hiding financial records is a good idea? Sure, but only if you are not spending it on what it is supposed to be spent on and that is the bottom line.

This is fucking hilarious. Anyone with half a brain and a calculator, and half a brain to work a calculator, can figure out what they've spent on salaries. The game could end up being shit, but believing that they've someone created some massive conspiracy while managing to keep 300 employees quiet about it is fucking hilarious. Honestly..... Make math great again.

Thats why I say all these things are a scam in some way. This project has kept xxx amount of people employed for the past 4-5 years. Personnel Figures and actual time frame can be debated. But these kickstarters and crowd funded projects are great ways for people who dont want to actually work do something and make a decent living at it. Obviously Roberts and the higher ups are reaping the most benefits from it as they can live their fantasy Hollywood lifestyle.

But it flies in the face of EVERYTHING every one of these companies claim "we want to make a game without 'corporate' restraints'' which means we need less money and less time to do it. Yet they have made more money and had more time than most established studios to put out a hell of a lot more than they have.

Also considering how micro managed ALL projects are and how hyper micro managed this one is I can imagine no one knows what the other guy is doing even if theyre side by side. So what do they have to cover up? They only know what theyre working on. And it could be anything and any excuse theyre given would be plausible. I mean how many times have they redone stuff already? So if a guy is working on basic movement code what is he going to say? And what would it mean? About the same as if a guy claimed he was working on the mining class, and doing tiers and coding all the different minerals. Wouldnt mean dick. Definitely wouldnt mean they had an actual use for it somewhere just that he was getting paid to do that particular coding job.

But yeah if you mix in a calculator and go by what Roberts has claimed and that they need 3 mil a month to keep up a steady pace thats 36 mil a year and at 140 mil thats basically 4 years.  So its not hard to think they have spent all their money already on salaries. Again we can debate the numbers of employees all we want but even if they go up and down the wiggle room isnt that huge. Not when you start adding up all the other shit they have spent money on.

But the product that is 'playable' represents the product of that work and those salaries. Which is basically what can maybe be expected under ALL the circumstances this mess has gone through over the years. Theyre obviously going to get SOMETHING for the work all those peopel have put it, and what you see is probably what youre going to get.

Thats why people who want this project to turn into an actual game better pray people keep throwing money at it like they have been.

Making a game without the publisher seriously curtailing the vision has nothing to do with needing less money and time, quite the opposite.

The publisher is in place to MINIMIZE time and money spent, and MAXIMIZE profit.

That's why CR wanted to rid himself of that model - and that's why the money goes directly towards making the game better, rather than the publisher richer. More money = more time to make things right without suits breathing down your neck every second.

That's why they're taking the time to do it right - and that's why they're not hurrying it for the ignorant naysayers.

The impatient and ignorant among the consumers represent the typical suit - infested with zero insight into the development process - and the need for something to be released RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WE PAID FOR IT.

Just like the average AAA suit - this segment of the backers think that, the more you invest, the quicker you can get things done - because they utterly fail to understand the implication of treading new ground and using the money to actually increase the scope, rather than magically turning development into a linear factory assembly production.

Thankfully, they have no power whatsoever - which is why the model is a perfect match for the ambition of Star Citizen.

It's really not rocket science.

adamlotus75

If Star Citizen was an Ikea bed, it would be a rough sketch of the instruction manual drawn by someone who'd not slept in a bed for 20 years, and a couple of random pieces of wood that may or may not be some of the final components.

So, no it doesnt really exist unless you like sleeping on the floor next to a stick.

Or maybe it does... in your head.

Erillion

adamlotus75 said:

If Star Citizen was an Ikea bed, it would be a rough sketch of the instruction manual drawn by someone who'd not slept in a bed for 20 years, and a couple of random pieces of wood that may or may not be some of the final components.

So, no it doesnt really exist unless you like sleeping on the floor next to a stick.

Or maybe it does... in your head.

You do know that IKEA is a worldwide success story, do you not ?


Have fun

Blueliner

Erillion said:

adamlotus75 said:

If Star Citizen was an Ikea bed, it would be a rough sketch of the instruction manual drawn by someone who'd not slept in a bed for 20 years, and a couple of random pieces of wood that may or may not be some of the final components.

So, no it doesnt really exist unless you like sleeping on the floor next to a stick.

Or maybe it does... in your head.

You do know that IKEA is a worldwide success story, do you not ?


Have fun

Ikea gives you all the parts ..... well most the time anyway.

DKLond

I don't think you can blame IKEA when you freely invest in the idea of a new bed, and then bitch endlessly when you fail to assemble a bed that's clearly advertised as incomplete and a work-in-progress, without a plan of assembly.

That said, I have no doubt some of the posters here would do something like that without a second thought.

It does take some slight measure of reason and integrity to wait until something is announced as done before you whine about how it's not done.

Erillion

DKLond said:

I don't think you can blame IKEA when you freely invest in the idea of a new bed, and then bitch endlessly when you fail to assemble a bed that's clearly advertised as incomplete and a work-in-progress, without a plan of assembly.

That said, I have no doubt some of the posters here would do something like that without a second thought.

It does take some slight measure of reason and integrity to wait until something is announced as done before you whine about how it's not done.

Hmm, personally I think one has to be pretty brain dead if one is not able to assemble something using an IKEA instruction sheet
(which was generated with the DAU in mind ... DAU = Dümmster Anzunehmender User = Dumbest Thinkable User  --> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dümmster_anzunehmender_User ). 
Wikipedia suggest this to be the english equivalent of a DAU --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luser

I always had too many parts in an IKEA package ... never was one missing.  And as you can get any missing parts for free at IKEA .... even if something is missing, you could just get the missing parts and continue assembly.

Beyond what you said (reason, integrity) i would argue that having a slight measure of brain also helps ....


Have fun