I would say for me that game would be Ultima Online, I have been playing it on and off since '98. Everything that comes along I compare to it to see if the "new" game ticks all the boxes that UO does. No game has ever ticked all the boxes but some have come close, I have pretty much played them all. I keep hoping that somebody will actually make a 3d version of it. Looking at Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen, Chronicles of Elyria , Ashes of Creation or Camelot Unchained to do this in the future.
And that's the problem with your original post. No game is the whole package, the perfect example of what all games should aspire to be.
Yeah the word one wasn't literal, as you can see people have multiple frame of references which makes a lot of sense. I intended to start a discussion and wanted to what games people refer to and why.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
ok so lets discuss SWG housing to todays , I actually lik SWG version much better as not instanced and ability to place nealry anywhere, the deco/trophy system was also much better than todays offerings ..
I would also like to compare SWG crafting systems to todays games , SWG imo was much more superior in every way , from harvesting , to upgrading and processing..
I would like to compare SWGs class system , the Orignal pre NGE was a lotta fun and much better than the generic shit we get from many MMOs today ...
We could continue to compare SWG to todays offerings all day , there are endless possibilities
As I said there's nothing really to compare to SWG in today's market.
Not as a whole package. But when a game says I have a really awesome crafting SWG is where I go. If it has done it better than that I say hey, finally an improvement, if worse well it can still be alright but nothing special nor brilliant. That's why when Repop came along so many people hoped it would fill their SWG void.
I never crafted in SWG, so that really doesn't concern me with new games. As I don't craft in them either. I played SWG mostly for PVP and guild related reasons. Nothing has an experience like that.
I made an example. You and others probably have other features you like. I didn't say we are supposed to like the same things--that would defeat the purpose of this thread.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
I never crafted in SWG, so that really doesn't concern me with new games. As I don't craft in them either. I played SWG mostly for PVP and guild related reasons. Nothing has an experience like that.
I made an example. You and others probably have other features you like. I didn't say we are supposed to like the same things--that would defeat the purpose of this thread.
Therein lies the problem with using SWG as a test for games today. My favorite feature was Pre-cu's skill system. I learned the lesson much like Apex long ago in trying to use that as an expectation for games going forward. IF I did I wouldn't be able to enjoy anything else. As nothing was like it, not even close.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
ok so lets discuss SWG housing to todays , I actually lik SWG version much better as not instanced and ability to place nealry anywhere, the deco/trophy system was also much better than todays offerings ..
I would also like to compare SWG crafting systems to todays games , SWG imo was much more superior in every way , from harvesting , to upgrading and processing..
I would like to compare SWGs class system , the Orignal pre NGE was a lotta fun and much better than the generic shit we get from many MMOs today ...
We could continue to compare SWG to todays offerings all day , there are endless possibilities
As I said there's nothing really to compare to SWG in today's market.
by saying that and coming to that conclusion you would have HAD to COMPARE SWG to todays market, Which you said you dont do ...?
ok so lets discuss SWG housing to todays , I actually lik SWG version much better as not instanced and ability to place nealry anywhere, the deco/trophy system was also much better than todays offerings ..
I would also like to compare SWG crafting systems to todays games , SWG imo was much more superior in every way , from harvesting , to upgrading and processing..
I would like to compare SWGs class system , the Orignal pre NGE was a lotta fun and much better than the generic shit we get from many MMOs today ...
We could continue to compare SWG to todays offerings all day , there are endless possibilities
As I said there's nothing really to compare to SWG in today's market.
by saying that and coming to that conclusion you would have HAD to COMPARE them to todays market, Which you said you dont do ...?
In the present I don't, back in 2005 is a different story... I learned long ago, that was futile, that it got in the way of experiencing games for what they offered rather than what they don't. Hence my original post, and why I know what such comparisons lead to. I couldn't enjoy anything else for years in the MMO space, It gave me a nasty taste for games like WOW, LOTRO, COH etc...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just a little respectful tip to all the lads whom don't use a reference
When you say you don't a judge a game it means you would never know if what you are playing is good or bad, you like it or you don't--which is impossible. You can replace the word judge with any other fancier word, but it's the same.
And when you say you don't use a game as a reference but a series of features instead, it is again the same thing. Because you haven't come with those ideas yourself, you are taking them from another game(s). And that first game you had played and had that feature which you like, is the reference.
Part of how we deal with everything new is through our past experiences. It is impossible to cast aside your experience unless you have reached nirvana and already on your way to a higher astral plane.
It's quite simple, there's no need to compare one game to another, as playing a game you're either having fun or not, you like the combat or don't, you like the story lines or don't, you like the questing/grind style or don't, there's no need to bring other games into those thoughts, as that just gets in the way of a game's individual merits. On top of that how do you compare say SWG to modern games? There's no real comparison to be made, as they're totally different approaches.
Even outside of MMOs this type of comparing is pointless, I mean why would I worry about stacking Skyrim up to Divinity OS, or Total War to Dawn of War? Each game has it's own lore and gameplay systems, I don't need to play Skyrim to know if Divinity is good...
People really fall into this when it comes to sequels, always expecting the next installment to replicate their first experience with a given property. That's just setting oneself up for disappointment, it's akin to chasing the dragon.
So , we compare , Movies, Books ,Cars, Food, Cities,Girls/Boys,Phones,Tv SHows, TVs, Music ,Atheletes , Sports,Teams,Carpet, Bricks , Trees, Weather,Cleaning Products,Toilet Paper,Cats,Dogs,Pets,, and on and on and on , everything in life gets compared ...
But not games .....got it
Gotta love people who think everyone approaches things the same.. Who said I compare those things to each other? Just because you must compare everything to your favorites doesn't mean everyone does. I really don't compare things in such a way, I really don't care if people think that's being disingenuous or not. I don't see the point in it, especially the manner people do it with games or music. Maybe this is why some of you folks are so unhappy?
I agree.
There's a huge difference between picking up a reference and making a judgement. Especially if picking the reference is done in advance like OP suggests.
There are people who feel more comfortable by having detailed requirements on what they want, a point of reference. They judge new games based on how well those fit their list of requirements.
And there are people who are more open-minded about looking a fun game. They are ready to simply ask others 'is the game fun', and if the answer is positive try it out on the chance they might like that kind of game.
Eventually everyone makes a judgement of the game, and uses their past knowledge and experiences to do it. But there's a huge difference between approaching things with a checklist of what you want, or as an unknown thing that might be interesting if you give it a try.
There's a huge difference between picking up a reference, especially if it's done in advance like OP suggests, and making a judgement.
There are people who feel more comfortable by having detailed requirements on what they want, a point of reference. They judge new games based on how well those fit their list of requirements.
And there are people who are more open-minded about looking a fun game. They are ready to simply ask others 'is the game fun', and if the answer is positive try it out on the chance they might like that kind of game.
Eventually everyone makes a judgement of the game, and uses their past knowledge and experiences to do it. But there's a huge difference between approaching things with a checklist of what you want, or as an unknown thing that might be interesting if you give it a try.
Exactly, I look at whether I find a game fun to play, not how it stacks up to a previous entry. I don't need such comparisons to know if I am having fun or not. Not sure how that is hard to understand.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just a little respectful tip to all the lads whom don't use a reference
When you say you don't a judge a game it means you would never know if what you are playing is good or bad, you like it or you don't--which is impossible. You can replace the word judge with any other fancier word, but it's the same.
And when you say you don't use a game as a reference but a series of features instead, it is again the same thing. Because you haven't come with those ideas yourself, you are taking them from another game(s). And that first game you had played and had that feature which you like, is the reference.
Part of how we deal with everything new is through our past experiences. It is impossible to cast aside your experience unless you have reached nirvana and already on your way to a higher astral plane.
It's quite simple, there's no need to compare one game to another, as playing a game you're either having fun or not, you like the combat or don't, you like the story lines or don't, you like the questing/grind style or don't, there's no need to bring other games into those thoughts, as that just gets in the way of a game's individual merits. On top of that how do you compare say SWG to modern games? There's no real comparison to be made, as they're totally different approaches.
Even outside of MMOs this type of comparing is pointless, I mean why would I worry about stacking Skyrim up to Divinity OS, or Total War to Dawn of War? Each game has it's own lore and gameplay systems, I don't need to play Skyrim to know if Divinity is good...
People really fall into this when it comes to sequels, always expecting the next installment to replicate their first experience with a given property. That's just setting oneself up for disappointment, it's akin to chasing the dragon.
So , we compare , Movies, Books ,Cars, Food, Cities,Girls/Boys,Phones,Tv SHows, TVs, Music ,Atheletes , Sports,Teams,Carpet, Bricks , Trees, Weather,Cleaning Products,Toilet Paper,Cats,Dogs,Pets,, and on and on and on , everything in life gets compared ...
But not games .....got it
Gotta love people who think everyone approaches things the same.. Who said I compare those things to each other? Just because you must compare everything to your favorites doesn't mean everyone does. I really don't compare things in such a way, I really don't care if people think that's being disingenuous or not. I don't see the point in it, especially the manner people do it with games or music. Maybe this is why some of you folks are so unhappy?
I agree.
There's a huge difference between picking up a reference and making a judgement. Especially if picking the reference is done in advance like OP suggests.
There are people who feel more comfortable by having detailed requirements on what they want, a point of reference. They judge new games based on how well those fit their list of requirements.
And there are people who are more open-minded about looking a fun game. They are ready to simply ask others 'is the game fun', and if the answer is positive try it out on the chance they might like that kind of game.
Eventually everyone makes a judgement of the game, and uses their past knowledge and experiences to do it. But there's a huge difference between approaching things with a checklist of what you want, or as an unknown thing that might be interesting if you give it a try.
You know I never said anything about pre judging anything or making a checklist or not giving a new a game chance or all new games suck and I don't enjoy anything new and I'm not willing to give anything new a try. These are all the good folks interpretations, not at all my intentions.
Mine is simple. You say a game has good graphics, what game are you comparing to? You think an MMO has a vast world? What game are you comparing it to. And so on... It is as simple as that.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
There's a huge difference between picking up a reference, especially if it's done in advance like OP suggests, and making a judgement.
There are people who feel more comfortable by having detailed requirements on what they want, a point of reference. They judge new games based on how well those fit their list of requirements.
And there are people who are more open-minded about looking a fun game. They are ready to simply ask others 'is the game fun', and if the answer is positive try it out on the chance they might like that kind of game.
Eventually everyone makes a judgement of the game, and uses their past knowledge and experiences to do it. But there's a huge difference between approaching things with a checklist of what you want, or as an unknown thing that might be interesting if you give it a try.
Exactly, I look at whether I find a game fun to play, not how it stacks up to a previous entry. I don't need such comparisons to know if I am having fun or not. Not sure how that is hard to understand.
No one needs to comparisons to know if they are having fun or not. I don't underatand why you keep going back to the fun factor. That's in no way relevant to the question.
What is the best acting you have ever seen in a movie? You can list your top 5 if you think about it. Doesn't mean you won't be having fun watching a new movie. It doesn't even mean you had the most fun watching those with the top acting.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Mine is simple. You say a game has good graphics, what game are you comparing to? You think an MMO has a vast world? What game are you comparing it to. And so on... It is as simple as that.
That's probably why you don't review games as you can't judge a game on it's own merits without having to compare it to others.
No reviewer worth their salt claims a certain mechanic in a game is good because it's similar to another game they liked.
Mine is simple. You say a game has good graphics, what game are you comparing to? You think an MMO has a vast world? What game are you comparing it to. And so on... It is as simple as that.
That's probably why you don't review games as you can't judge a game on it's own merits without having to compare it to others.
No reviewer worth their salt claims a certain mechanic in a game is good because it's similar to another game they liked.
How do they do that?
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Just an FYI, this is like 101 to review anything. Can't believe we have to argue over a simplest things to have a simple discussion, but hey, that's half the fun.
6. Position this product or service among its peers.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Just an FYI, this is like 101 to review anything. Can't believe we have to argue over a simplest things to have a simple discussion, but hey, that's half the fun.
The only reason i find comparing a mmo with another one is if you had to choose between one of them but outside of that, what's the point?
If you play it and enjoy it enough to continue playing then the mmo is good, if you don't enjoy it then it's bad. It makes no sense going "I enjoy this feature but the "other mmo" does it better so this feature is shit."
Because without comparison you won't be having a frame of reference. Without frame of reference anything can be anything.
Your second paragraph basically means there is no point in criticism.
You can criticize without comparing a mmo to another one. If you don't enjoy something, you say for example "I don't like this feature because it's too slow." and not "I don't like this feature because "other mmo" is much better."
If you're selling a mmo to someone else and they like a particular mmo then sure, you can compare the two like "This mmo has the same kind of feature that you like from the other mmo so you might like this one" but as i said, comparing mmos yourself to me is pointless.
The only reason i find comparing a mmo with another one is if you had to choose between one of them but outside of that, what's the point?
If you play it and enjoy it enough to continue playing then the mmo is good, if you don't enjoy it then it's bad. It makes no sense going "I enjoy this feature but the "other mmo" does it better so this feature is shit."
Because without comparison you won't be having a frame of reference. Without frame of reference anything can be anything.
Your second paragraph basically means there is no point in criticism.
You can criticize without comparing a mmo to another one. If you don't enjoy something, you say for example "I don't like this feature because it's too slow." and not "I don't like this feature because "other mmo" is much better."
If you're selling a mmo to someone else and they like a particular mmo then sure, you can compare the two like "This mmo has the same kind of feature that you like from the other mmo so you might like this one" but as i said, comparing mmos yourself to me is pointless.
You either like it or you don't.
If you say it is too slow without comparing to the rest of the MMOsit wouldn't make any sense, what if all the other MMOs are slower than that? Then you would just sound like a clueless writer on steroids
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Mine is simple. You say a game has good graphics, what game are you comparing to? You think an MMO has a vast world? What game are you comparing it to. And so on... It is as simple as that.
That's probably why you don't review games as you can't judge a game on it's own merits without having to compare it to others.
No reviewer worth their salt claims a certain mechanic in a game is good because it's similar to another game they liked.
How do they do that?
Well, what most reviewers do is delve deep into the mechanics of the game and how they work, how well they work and whether they complement each other well.
Then they usually give a verdict on whether they like it or not.
A good reviewer can easily review a game without a point of reference. Well, unless they're biased.
Also, you don't have to have had experience of something to pass judgement on it.
If it was then something new and innovative that comes out in a game can't be judged, as no one has a point of reference.
Just an FYI, this is like 101 to review anything. Can't believe we have to argue over a simplest things to have a simple discussion, but hey, that's half the fun.
6. Position this product or service among its peers.
I don't write reviews though :P
You don't have to write it but when you digest, review and criticize even if in your heart you would be following the same logic. Recent research shows even plants do that to some extend, hard to get away from it as a human mate ^^
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Mine is simple. You say a game has good graphics, what game are you comparing to? You think an MMO has a vast world? What game are you comparing it to. And so on... It is as simple as that.
That's probably why you don't review games as you can't judge a game on it's own merits without having to compare it to others.
No reviewer worth their salt claims a certain mechanic in a game is good because it's similar to another game they liked.
How do they do that?
Well, what most reviewers do is delve deep into the mechanics of the game and how they work, how well they work and whether they complement each other well.
Then they usually give a verdict on whether they like it or not.
A good reviewer can easily review a game without a point of reference. Well, unless they're biased.
Also, you don't have to have had experience of something to pass judgement on it.
If it was then something new and innovative that comes out in a game can't be judged, as no one has a point of reference.
Which is nonsense.
Without a reference how can you know if it's new or innovative?
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Just an FYI, this is like 101 to review anything. Can't believe we have to argue over a simplest things to have a simple discussion, but hey, that's half the fun.
6. Position this product or service among its peers.
And I can't believe you omitted this from your quote.
Position this product or service among its peers.
Think about where this product fits among similar products. You should
certainly judge the product on its own merits.
Just an FYI, this is like 101 to review anything. Can't believe we have to argue over a simplest things to have a simple discussion, but hey, that's half the fun.
6. Position this product or service among its peers.
And I can't believe you omitted this from your quote.
Position this product or service among its peers.
Think about where this product fits among similar products. You should
certainly judge the product on its own merits.
Since you don't do quotes fully I am going to help you a bit here
Position this product or service among its peers. Think about where this product fits among similar products. You should certainly judge the product on its own merits, but people reading your reviews will find it useful to have a reference to a restaurant they’re familiar with. This makes the comparison – and thus, the evaluation of whether to try a product or service – easier for readers of your review.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Btw I got a new CPU and it is the fastest, I don't need to compare it to any other CPU to know, I feel it is the fastest and I am having fun. That's all that matters right?
Well... No!!
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Comments
And yes 3-ply is the way to go.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Combat mechanics for example. I wouldn't judge which one is better when it came to tab-target, action, turn based or RTS.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
There's a huge difference between picking up a reference and making a judgement. Especially if picking the reference is done in advance like OP suggests.
There are people who feel more comfortable by having detailed requirements on what they want, a point of reference. They judge new games based on how well those fit their list of requirements.
And there are people who are more open-minded about looking a fun game. They are ready to simply ask others 'is the game fun', and if the answer is positive try it out on the chance they might like that kind of game.
Eventually everyone makes a judgement of the game, and uses their past knowledge and experiences to do it. But there's a huge difference between approaching things with a checklist of what you want, or as an unknown thing that might be interesting if you give it a try.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Mine is simple. You say a game has good graphics, what game are you comparing to? You think an MMO has a vast world? What game are you comparing it to. And so on... It is as simple as that.
What is the best acting you have ever seen in a movie? You can list your top 5 if you think about it. Doesn't mean you won't be having fun watching a new movie. It doesn't even mean you had the most fun watching those with the top acting.
No reviewer worth their salt claims a certain mechanic in a game is good because it's similar to another game they liked.
http://m.wikihow.com/Write-a-Review
6. Position this product or service among its peers.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If you're selling a mmo to someone else and they like a particular mmo then sure, you can compare the two like "This mmo has the same kind of feature that you like from the other mmo so you might like this one" but as i said, comparing mmos yourself to me is pointless.
You either like it or you don't.
Then they usually give a verdict on whether they like it or not.
A good reviewer can easily review a game without a point of reference. Well, unless they're biased.
Also, you don't have to have had experience of something to pass judgement on it.
If it was then something new and innovative that comes out in a game can't be judged, as no one has a point of reference.
Which is nonsense.
Position this product or service among its peers. Think about where this product fits among similar products. You should certainly judge the product on its own merits.
Well... No!!