How to make a non hack 'n slash MMORPG

sleepyguyftl

I have been searching forever for a MMORPG that doesn't just amount to the same old kill/loot formulia and haven't really found one. In fact most people and developers seem to be at a complete loss as to ideas on how to make something that isn't centered around kill/loot.

So I started playing other games even going so far as buying a Gamecube. Well one of the games I have found is Metroid Prime. This game is incredible. Now my question is this, Why isn't there an online MMORPG like this? It would seem that creating something that is exploration/combat instead of COMBAT COMBAT COMBAT/exploraiton shouldn't be that hard to do.

Silverado

I guess I would kind of dig the entire explorer experience, but it could be a lot like flight simulators -- it could get a little annoying. I guess that I would totally dig a MMORPG Myst game... but a MMORPG hiking or city explorer. Hey, you aready have that! How about the Sims Online? I hear that the Sims Online is a very cool game and its really sort of an explorer game that is not based on combat, right?

sleepyguyftl

Actually the Myst game is not an MMORPG, that is misleading. If you read the site it states that.

And I think you are missing my point. I don't want a explore only game... I would just like to see one where there is more explore than combat, yet still have some combat.

Misti

Actually, other then the social aspect, exploring was my favorite things about EQ even though many people probaby consider it a hack and slash game.

squeee

I would do a lot more exploring in MMORPG if there was a lot more to explore.  Oh wow I found the same dungeon here that I found 20 minutes south of here.  If there were interesting sites to explore and buildings you could actually enter, then I would explore.  SWG got so annoying because 90% of the buildings in the city you could not enter.  But, it is probably the same for all MMORPGs.  I would like for a game to try and see how it turns out.  EVE isn't all hack and slash, it isn't an exploring game either really, it is more of a economy game.  I hear it can be fun if you get in with a good corporation.  If an economy game can make it, I would imagine an exploring game could too.

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Clever_Glove

I to have played Metroid Prime. How many hours a week to log playing it now? I haven't played it since I completed it. Why? I know what it all looks like and what is going to happen. Was it fun, yes. Is it still fun.... no. 

Why aren't there more "E" based games?

"Tilting towards explorers would add depth and interest, but remove much of the activity. Spectacle would dominate over action, and there would be no need for other players. The result of this is basically an online book."

"E" centric games are like books, they are loads of fun the 1st or 2nd time, but it gets old pretty quick, as a dev you would have to constantly add more and more content, you could never keep up. So the "E" game type can't exisit as a profitable modle. 

So game companies focus on "S" (chat rooms) and "A" (killing things.. mostly) since they are the safe bet and easy to maintain.

If you read this essay, you'll have a deep understanding why MMORPG's are they way they are. http://www.brandeis.edu/pubs/jove/HTML/v1/bartle.html and why some things may be good idea's but can't support a userbase.

If you want to just explore, down load Project Entropia http://www.project-entropia.com/main.jsp. it's completely free install and run around. When it gets old, try out another MMORPG that allows free installs.

Just like why your not still playing Metriod Prime, is why you won't still be playing a "E" based MMORPG.

 

A game is only late untill it's released, but it's bad forever.

A: 93%, E: 55%, S:3% K: 50%

rathma

 I think exploring is awesome as long as theres something interesting to explore. But also, combat can also be very interesting depending on how they make it

Homer-"let the bears pay the bear tax, but i pay the Homer tax."
Lisa-"Dad, that's the homeOWNERS tax!"
Homer-"Whatever I'll be at Moes."

sleepyguyftl

I will read that article later tonight.

However I would like to comment on your quote:
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"Tilting towards explorers would add depth and interest, but remove much of the activity. Spectacle would dominate over action, and there would be no need for other players. The result of this is basically an online book."

"E" centric games are like books, they are loads of fun the 1st or 2nd time, but it gets old pretty quick, as a dev you would have to constantly add more and more content, you could never keep up. So the "E" game type can't exisit as a profitable modle. 
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This goes into the idea that exploration is somehow a one time static thing. This is anything but true. You have to remember that exploration is not simply going and looking at things.. It's investigation, research, and an understanding of things (the where, what, why, how, and who).

You could have an area, lets say it's a forrest. In that forrest you find things. Most people (and developers) think that is all you can do for exploration content. But lets say you put a house in the forrest. More content could be to figure out what the house is doing there, who lives in it, and why. Then you could block the way to the house with a really mean monster. Here combat would come in because you would have to fight it to get into the house. Even with that there is exploration. What is the monster? Why doesn't the monster want you getting into the house?

Ok, now you saying, sure that's great for the first time. But what happens when the house is found, the questions are answered, and the forrest is explored? Simple... the river near by flooded. The forrest that was once alive and beautiful is not dead and muddy. Trees are down everywhere, paths are blocked. Is that house still there? Don't know have to explore to find it. Of course once you find the house then come the investigation into why the river flooded.

I could keep going but the idea is there. I find it terribly frightening that MMORPGS are fast becomming fighting games with no RP in them. MMORPGS are suppose to be online role playing games that contain large numbes of people. If you think back to some of the greatest RPG's the thing that makes them stick out isn't how powerful you could make your character, but more how you got pulled in by a great story and could keep finding new things. Just cause they are going online doesn't mean those two things should be lost.

 

Silverado

I know, but it would be a wicked cool MMORPG, Myst would.

hercules

Depends what you mean by exploring.

Take EQ for one.There are many zones most players have never seen because it involves looong quest to get keys to them and a huge well equipped army to progress thru.

Now of course here you have to fight and fight damn well to get thru this places to explore.

So here you have a situation of loads to explore and discover but require a lot of combat to get to them.

If you mean explore without having to fight then no MMORPG will have anything you have not seen within a few weeks.

If you can simply run thru the world and see it all without huge risk ,the world will become not only explored in a matter of days it will be boring .

This means lose of customers.

rathma

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Originally posted by Silverado

I know, but it would be a wicked cool MMORPG, Myst would.

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 Myst is making an mmorpg.

Homer-"let the bears pay the bear tax, but i pay the Homer tax."
Lisa-"Dad, that's the homeOWNERS tax!"
Homer-"Whatever I'll be at Moes."

sleepyguyftl

If you are reffering to Uri, it's not an MMORPG. Read the site at www.ubi.com there isn't anything there that states it's an MMORPG.

lyonman24

hi all,

      So basiclly your looking for a sherlock holmes type mmorpg now that would be cool. have it mostly quest based and differant chars to add differant skills to the investigation and throw in twists and some thugs to make it a little hard for you and make you go hmmmmm. change up and add new quests all the time. oh but wait that means that devs would have to add more and do more work or they could hire event cordinators to stand in and have them run the events/quests from the outside. sorry not trying to bag on devs but most of my run in with them has been bad. that could work as long as the company that did it worked all the time on it.

 

Silverado

Well, I think I would really like to have an AI engine that is so fine that one might not even be sure which is Live and which is Memorex. I wonder: are there MMORPG 'bot' technology which would allow client users to remain "placed online" or being run by a bot or agent or AI script, in the same way that these entities can be placed in IRC? In MUDs?

sleepyguyftl

Why is it so hard for people to grasp the concept I am putting forth. A MMORPG that involves combat and exploration, but instead of having more combat than exploration, have more exploration than combat.

I don't think you would be doing combat in Sherlock Holmes.

Clever_Glove

"You could have an area, lets say it's a forrest. In that forrest you find things. Most people (and developers) think that is all you can do for exploration content. But lets say you put a house in the forrest. More content could be to figure out what the house is doing there, who lives in it, and why. Then you could block the way to the house with a really mean monster. Here combat would come in because you would have to fight it to get into the house. Even with that there is exploration. What is the monster? Why doesn't the monster want you getting into the house? "

This is exactly what I meant. You can't have this style without ALLOT of dev interaction. I'm not saying this right, wrong or otherwise. I'm only saying how it is. Granted MMORPG's should have some of this... but you can never have enough content for content to be the reason to play. Something else that requires less Dev time must be present.

In this example notice that your need for other players is rather limited. You after a "book like" experience from the game.

A's and S's are the players that will come back day, after day, after day, after day... and so on. So if you want to keep eating, paying your rent and make a game. Your going to make a game that can sell. And that is going to be a game that cators to A's... witch means killing mobs, and getting' loot. (S's come for the chat, you really don't need anything to get them)

MMORPG's ARE NOT RP games, they are slow-delovping, team-work games. Maybe they shouldn't even be called MMORPG's it's completely misleading.  And I think it's very debateable if RP even exists beyond the table and the dice. (other than people acting out differnt persona's, yes that is like RPing, but acting different than you normally do != game RPing)

EQ (the grandfather of MMORPG's) is still successfully because they switched from a ESA game type to ASE.  Right about Velious the switch happened (maybe Kunark with VP)and they keep making more money and more money. Why? A's are the most dedicated players you'll ever find.  

"Why is it so hard for people to grasp the concept I am putting forth. A MMORPG that involves combat and exploration, but instead of having more combat than exploration, have more exploration than combat."

You CAN NOT keep up with the content as a Dev. People will solve everything you toss out in hours, that took you weeks or months to get to work correctly (you would beta test right?). It's not a easy task to make boat loads of scripts and coherent plots. If you think other wise try it sometime. Even making a paper base adventure will be far more difficult than you think, then toss in all the programming elements.

If you like E type games, Consoles are probably going to be the most satisfying for you.

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A game is only late untill it's released, but it's bad forever.
A: 93%, E: 55%, S:3% K: 50%

Desperado

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Originally posted by Silverado

Well, I think I would really like to have an AI engine that is so fine that one might not even be sure which is Live and which is Memorex. I wonder: are there MMORPG 'bot' technology which would allow client users to remain "placed online" or being run by a bot or agent or AI script, in the same way that these entities can be placed in IRC? In MUDs?

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For a long while there was talk of Resident Evil Online (It's supposedly still in the works).  Where the characters in the game were supposed to be composed of both AI and real players but you wouldn't be able to tell which was which.  I know this isn't exactly what you were inquireing about, but I thought I'd mention it. 

"A good man knows his limits, a Great man knows he has none...."

sleepyguyftl

>>>>You CAN NOT keep up with the content as a Dev. People will solve everything you toss out in hours, that took you weeks or months to get to work correctly (you would beta test right?).
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Well a Tale in the Desert seems to have lots of things that people haven't done in hours (that game sufers from a total lack of combat and real missions). Even if that is the case, just because one person has solved it, doens't mean that it's ruined for everyone else. Many people want to solve things for themself.

The other thing that can be done is to create exploration content (puzzles) that have random factors in them. Say for example you created a puzzle that upon the solution you gained access to a new area. Well a way to prevent it from being solved is to have the way to get to the solution be random. For example if you had a puzzle where you needed to collect stones to access a cave. It would be very easy to program that each player received a different number/color combo in order to solve it. You could be required to get 3 red, I could be required to get 2 red, 3 gray, and 5 blue.

Just remember when the idea of Myst was first presented it was looked upon with a very cold shoulder. They said no one would want to play a game where all you did is look and explore. Look how that turned out.

 

lyonman24

sleepy what you dont think sherlock holmes had run ins with thugs trying to kill him well he did hence more exploration than combat.

TigerRei

Well there is at least one MMORPG that does not emphasize hack and slash or duck and shoot gameplay as much as the story itself. The MMORPG I refer to is Face of Mankind ( www.faceofmankind.com ). In Face of Mankind (Or FOM) there is combat in the game. However, there are no levels or skills. You wont see people bragging about being level 99 whatever. And FOM is heavily story-driven. Every person has a chance to alter the story. I urge everyone to check out the website and see for themselves.

Clever_Glove

Face of mankind isn't released yet... Have you played it TigerRei?

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A game is only late untill it's released, but it's bad forever.
A: 93%, E: 55%, S:3% K: 50%

TigerRei

No, but I'm one of the most active forum members as well as a moderator, not to mention hopefully one of the first beta people.

teratya

An exploration based MMORPG would seem to be impossible to maintain as the developers would have to work to outpace thousands of players. The only way I could ever see this happening if instead of many servers the game had 1 server but the game world was literally as large as our real world in square miles. Starting from scratch as far as cities and civilization goes, and not allowing teleportation or gating. Almost molding a Civilization type game with EQ or something. Now that would be cool. I would take a lot of time and patience for someone to play with and make a difference, but it would most certainly be cool.

Shots out!

FaeryShivers

I agree games focus too much on the combat in the game...but to make it mostly exploration would be tipping the scale for a smaller market..there's a bigger market for hack and slash. I think if you created more of an equal balance that would be nice also if there was even more to do besides explore and kill stuff (IE puzzles, mini games etc) 

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teratya

I would definitely be nice to see more minigames. A casino in EQ. How cool would that be? I could see that if not properly maintained or exploited it could destroy the economy.

Shots out!

sleepyguyftl

Going from all combat to all exploration is a bad thing. What I am basically saying is that MMORPG's need to move away from the 90% combat, 10% other. To more of an equal balance, or at least not so heavily saturated with combat. Not only to get more people playing, but to keep the players you have happy for a LONG period of time.