The Perception System Detailed + April Newsletter - Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Video Podcast

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The Perception System Detailed + April Newsletter - Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Video Podcast

Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen team has unleashed our own HiveLeader to talk about the Perception System and how interacting with the environment can unlock special quest lines. This encourages players taking part in the Perception System to explore their surroundings and perhaps see things that others do not.

Read the full story here

Wizardry

I like the BASIC idea but not if it is just locked quests to certain races/classes.There is no CHOICE if i will never unlock the quest because i lack that perception and can never achieve the needed perception line.
I feel they were on the right track until i heard about certain lockouts,i feel EVERY single player should have access to a quest but through various different means.
However just the first part of no markers over npc heads and no lights leading me down a path,is a MASSIVE plus and puts a smile on my face.

Scott_Jeslis

Wizardry said:

I like the BASIC idea but not if it is just locked quests to certain races/classes.

It sounded like classes had "different" types of perception. Why isn't this a good thing? It gives some variety to playing alts.

CrazKanuk

Wizardry said:

I like the BASIC idea but not if it is just locked quests to certain races/classes.There is no CHOICE if i will never unlock the quest because i lack that perception and can never achieve the needed perception line.
I feel they were on the right track until i heard about certain lockouts,i feel EVERY single player should have access to a quest but through various different means.
However just the first part of no markers over npc heads and no lights leading me down a path,is a MASSIVE plus and puts a smile on my face.

I disagree. Isn't it this idea of making everything accessible to everyone that's led us to this point? While they are saying that there are some class-locked perception quests, not all of these are class-based. Also, if you really want those quests then team up with someone from that class who is doing that quest. The "choice" itself sounds to be determined, primarily, by your stats in certain areas. So it could be that some perception quests might also be inaccessible to certain classes simply based on their base stats. Like if you have to move a boulder, and STR is the primary stat to accomplish that, then your rogue might not be able to accomplish it. Personally, I appreciate that they are attempting to re-introduce differentiation into the genre. No more, "everyone can be a unique and beautiful snowflake" attitude. 

kruler

The point I'm taking from this is that on a certain level my perception and actions have consequences, that can differ from race/class.
To me wanting to be a necromancer down the track, that's just awesome, because I,m sick of factions/races being treated the same, I miss the early EQ where even choosing race let only a class had long reaching consequences, its why I ended up playing an Eurdite Necro for years, then iksars only later on.

CrazKanuk

kruler said:

The point I'm taking from this is that on a certain level my perception and actions have consequences, that can differ from race/class.
To me wanting to be a necromancer down the track, that's just awesome, because I,m sick of factions/races being treated the same, I miss the early EQ where even choosing race let only a class had long reaching consequences, its why I ended up playing an Eurdite Necro for years, then iksars only later on.

Yeah, like do you think a necromancer cares about some woman crying? Nope! Necromancer don't care!

Sovrath

CrazKanuk said:

Wizardry said:

I like the BASIC idea but not if it is just locked quests to certain races/classes.There is no CHOICE if i will never unlock the quest because i lack that perception and can never achieve the needed perception line.
I feel they were on the right track until i heard about certain lockouts,i feel EVERY single player should have access to a quest but through various different means.
However just the first part of no markers over npc heads and no lights leading me down a path,is a MASSIVE plus and puts a smile on my face.

I disagree. Isn't it this idea of making everything accessible to everyone that's led us to this point? While they are saying that there are some class-locked perception quests, not all of these are class-based. Also, if you really want those quests then team up with someone from that class who is doing that quest. The "choice" itself sounds to be determined, primarily, by your stats in certain areas. So it could be that some perception quests might also be inaccessible to certain classes simply based on their base stats. Like if you have to move a boulder, and STR is the primary stat to accomplish that, then your rogue might not be able to accomplish it. Personally, I appreciate that they are attempting to re-introduce differentiation into the genre. No more, "everyone can be a unique and beautiful snowflake" attitude. 

I agree with  you. I'm perfectly ok with some content not being accessible due to certain player choices.

So, if a door needs to be "hacked" and the player can't do it then "find a player who can hack the door". Sames goes with a steel chest. If he/she can't pick it then find someone who can.

ZionBane

Wizardry said:

I like the BASIC idea but not if it is just locked quests to certain races/classes.There is no CHOICE if i will never unlock the quest because i lack that perception and can never achieve the needed perception line.

I feel they were on the right track until i heard about certain lockouts,i feel EVERY single player should have access to a quest but through various different means.

However just the first part of no markers over npc heads and no lights leading me down a path,is a MASSIVE plus and puts a smile on my face.

Why does Quest Lock-out bother you? They did this in GW2, with the Personal Story where each race had their own Personalized Quest/Story Line, (At least at the Start) that was unique and special to them. I personally thought it was a wonderful touch that added a richness to the character, I loved how my Norn was called "Slayer" at that start, and how everything was focused on my Race/Class, it gave it that really.. hand felt touch to the starting player.

I fully understood that in GW2, a Sylvari was not going to have to go and slay a giant worm to start their path to greatness, like a Norn did, equally so.. a Sylvari got to kill a dream shadow dragon thing, which was epic in it's own way, and very personal to them. Not to mention to gave a wonderful feel to the uniqueness to each race.

While it later to progressed into a unifying story. But.. damn.. Claw Island was Amazing.

Now, I have not played WoW, but I hear that WoW did similar things as well with their starting quest line for story and such, but.. can't say for sure, since I never played it.

In contrast to that, Neverwinter, had this generic start to it, and it felt like there was nothing special about my character, but they were built on DnD Licence, so, they don't need to give players story into their world or it's races, benefit of using an existing and Established Brand.

frangoazul

i want this game, its like EQ and i have good memories of EQ and EQ2, the perception system is perfect for me

Xiaoki

HELLO online guides!

People will just look up where to go and what to do. Just because its not easy in-game doesnt mean that it wont be easy.

Also, they really are just quests under a new name but this time theres no ? or !

CrazKanuk

Xiaoki said:

HELLO online guides!

People will just look up where to go and what to do. Just because its not easy in-game doesnt mean that it wont be easy.

I agree, but I think that the point is that this is something that is heavily story/exploration driven. I think the target audience for this system is probably not going to be using online guides. 

However, I don't disagree with you, either. There will be guides, just like there were still guides existing for games with exclamation marks over NPCs heads. I didn't think it needed to get any easier than that  

flizzer

Group centric makes me nervous.  Years ago when MMOs were new and shiny and you had fewer players and fewer games we were all on the same page. Not anymore.  Maybe all the friendly group types will be playing this game and everything will be fine but call me skeptical.  

I see for the first few months people running around and helping and grouping with one another .  Six months down the road if you become a new player I see you begging in chat for help because most of the playerbase has moved on.  I see this in so many modern games.  People offer to pay for help in chat they get so desperate.  Sure, there are those willing to help but perhpas not enough.  I question whether a group centric game can really work. 

CrazKanuk

Xodic said:

Xiaoki said:

HELLO online guides!



People will just look up where to go and what to do. Just because its not easy in-game doesnt mean that it wont be easy.

Also, they really are just quests under a new name but this time theres no ? or !

It certainly appears that way. I like that EQ, to this day, still has quests that have never been figured out. This system will work for me as long as the 'quests' feel like rare and meaningful QUESTS, and not tasks for helpless NPCs.

Agree. Just make fewer quests that take time to do and are SUPER rewarding, as far as XP goes. 

For me, nothing is more broken than someone asking for help, and addressing you as "hero", so they know who you are, with collecting baking ingredients or something trivial like that. 

Honestly, how would you respond? I'd probably be like, "Can't you see I'm trying to save the WORLD!!!!! NO!!! I CAN'T GET YOU 10 BAGS OF FLOUR!!!!"

Nanfoodle

Nyctelios said:

Guides and cheat codes exists since dawn of gaming. You can't use it as excuse to just blast it off and simply make everything on the game be given to you in a golden spoon. WoW suffered, for me, with that and add-ons. The game itself already has stupidly easy warning signs, giant yellow flashy phrases, telling the boss is about to do something, yet people install freaking noise makers to spam alarm.

Facilitation exists, for those who wants it. Making it a vanilla experience can ruin it for those who, like me, don't want that facilitation - instead rely on the game itself and it's design to accomplish tasks and, well, play the game. And as you said: If someone want there is always a guide, good for them, they can go and read the guide, so please let that be a third party guide and not a built in facilitation - Let me have the choice to ignore that.

I think WoW's big problem was when they started scaling content to take into account the add on. Got to a point you needed them.

Nanfoodle

Nyctelios said:

Nanfoodle said:

Nyctelios said:

Guides and cheat codes exists since dawn of gaming. You can't use it as excuse to just blast it off and simply make everything on the game be given to you in a golden spoon. WoW suffered, for me, with that and add-ons. The game itself already has stupidly easy warning signs, giant yellow flashy phrases, telling the boss is about to do something, yet people install freaking noise makers to spam alarm.

Facilitation exists, for those who wants it. Making it a vanilla experience can ruin it for those who, like me, don't want that facilitation - instead rely on the game itself and it's design to accomplish tasks and, well, play the game. And as you said: If someone want there is always a guide, good for them, they can go and read the guide, so please let that be a third party guide and not a built in facilitation - Let me have the choice to ignore that.

I think WoW's big problem was when they started scaling content to take into account the add on. Got to a point you needed them.

About "needing them" I would argue otherwise... but I understand. And yes, it became as part of the game as anything, so and so they designed areas and bosses having addons in mind. Well, they included some on the base game.

As a healer, WoW was the only game I needed a add on to keep people healed and cured. Molten Core days I didnt. 

Samhael

Sadly, I think I would almost *have* to use online guides. I almost exclusively play with the volume off and never would have noticed the lady crying by the side of the road. Heck, without an obvious visual indication of some sort, I don't think I'd have any clue I should talk to her. While I see some cool ideas discussed with Pantheon, more and more I am convinced that I am not their target audience. I don't want my hand held and I definitely want a deep/complex game, but I don't want to waste a large chunk of my online play time spent just trying to FIND a quest giver. Hopefully, there will be something more obvious visually to give me a clue... and no, it doesn't need to be an exclamation mark above their head.

Also, while that sounded like the Hive Leader, it couldn't have been him. I didn't hear one funny joke... even the "paint drying" video was more humorous than this!

goozmania

I am hugely against gimmicks like this and the elemental mana system they've talked about. The best I can hope for is that it's either scrapped from release, or just some simple exploitable thing, and not a time-wasting tedium.
If perception is merely taking your character to a specific spot to activate something; that's fine... if it's RNG, that's a massive negative.

HoopdyDoo

You mean that players may actually have to *gasp* pay attention to the environment and the text from NPC's instead of following a golden trail and skipping through all quest chat?

Sign me up.

ChildoftheShadows

I think the fact that they will be race and/or class specific really adds to the replay value. When I create an alt to try out a new class/race combination I now get a new set of experiences to go along with it. I dig it. Getting more excited for this one all the time.

Sovrath

Samhael said:

Sadly, I think I would almost *have* to use online guides. I almost exclusively play with the volume off and never would have noticed the lady crying by the side of the road. Heck, without an obvious visual indication of some sort, I don't think I'd have any clue I should talk to her. While I see some cool ideas discussed with Pantheon, more and more I am convinced that I am not their target audience. I don't want my hand held and I definitely want a deep/complex game, but I don't want to waste a large chunk of my online play time spent just trying to FIND a quest giver. Hopefully, there will be something more obvious visually to give me a clue... and no, it doesn't need to be an exclamation mark above their head.



Also, while that sounded like the Hive Leader, it couldn't have been him. I didn't hear one funny joke... even the "paint drying" video was more humorous than this!

As Kano says, he wasn't making one of "his" videos he was just paid to read text for their video. It was definitely him.

As far as "looking" for a quest giver, I think that's probably not the way the game is to be played. It seems you aren't supposed to be looking for quest givers so much as doing what you want to be doing and in the course of play you stumble upon/discover quests/activities.

I don't really get that this is a "quest" game where you try to load up on "quests" do them quickly and load up on more.

Mendel

Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head.  It's functionally identical.   So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC.  Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?

Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.

The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.

Sovrath

Mendel said:

Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head.  It's functionally identical.   So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC.  Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?

Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.

The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.

Except that is what innovative "is".

Just like "!" whether one likes it or not was also innovative.

This is just a more organic way for players to discover quests, one that makes sense in a more "story telling" sort of way.

cheyane

Audible crying is not the same as a '!' over their head as audible crying firstly blends into the environment and an exclamation mark sticks out. Having to pay attentions to sounds and things going on around you is way more interactive then an exclamation point over the head.

Mendel

Sovrath said:

Mendel said:

Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head.  It's functionally identical.   So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC.  Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?

Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.

The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.

Except that is what innovative "is".

Just like "!" whether one likes it or not was also innovative.

This is just a more organic way for players to discover quests, one that makes sense in a more "story telling" sort of way.

How is audible crying any different from Nerissa Clothespinner walking in North Qeynos, or Lashum Novashine periodically yelling out his message?  Both of those quests were in EQ1 almost from day 1.

This isn't innovation, as far as it's been shown, because it isn't new.  The "!" was innovative because it didn't exist previously.  The only innovation appears to be that the developers are calling this 'the Perception System'.  Until there is something different, don't call it different just because you've put a new name to it.

Sovrath

Mendel said:

Sovrath said:

Mendel said:

Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head.  It's functionally identical.   So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC.  Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?

Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.

The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.

Except that is what innovative "is".

Just like "!" whether one likes it or not was also innovative.

This is just a more organic way for players to discover quests, one that makes sense in a more "story telling" sort of way.

How is audible crying any different from Nerissa Clothespinner walking in North Qeynos, or Lashum Novashine periodically yelling out his message?  Both of those quests were in EQ1 almost from day 1.

This isn't innovation, as far as it's been shown, because it isn't new.  The "!" was innovative because it didn't exist previously.  The only innovation appears to be that the developers are calling this 'the Perception System'.  Until there is something different, don't call it different just because you've put a new name to it.

That's just one example. And possibly not a great one.

From what I'm getting the perception system is just that, your character is in an area and "notices something". Doesn't have to be a person, it could be a draft coming from under a door or seeing light through a crack or noticing a keyhole in a bit of rock.

ChildoftheShadows

Mendel said:

Someone explain to me how audible crying isn't the same as an "!" over the character's head.  It's functionally identical.   So far, this really appears to be using the same philosophy as quests in EQ1 -- all quests start by talking to an NPC.  Honestly, would anyone have identified the crying lady as 'the Perception System' if there hadn't been a narrator pointing it out?

Another of the vaunted Pantheon Differences is set to turn into another case of over application of a thesaurus on an otherwise familiar system.

The end result of Pantheon may be good, maybe even entertaining, but it won't be innovative.

That's kind of the point of it I think. If you're paying attention and you go check on that crying NPC you'll get the quest. Everyone notices a large "!" above player heads. the "!" completely removes any organic feeling from the interaction and removes the adventure.